Sergey Lavrov's written interview with Indonesian newspaper Kompas, July 11, 2023
11 July 2023 22:00
1379-11-07-2023
Unofficial translation
Question: If the war in Ukraine continues, what will happen next? What will Russia do?
Sergey Lavrov: I think it would be correct to start answering your question by explaining the root causes of the events in Ukraine. We often hear that the conflict supposedly started in February 2022 with Russia's "unprovoked aggression." This assertion is completely false.
Let me recall that in February 2014, Washington and its EU satellites orchestrated a state coup in Kiev. This is the point of departure for all subsequent events.
During the coup, Ukraine's legally elected President Viktor Yanukovich was overthrown and power was seized by the pro-Western anti-Russia forces with the support of neo-Nazi groups - successors to the Nazi collaborationists Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevich. This event shook the country to its core. Ukraine could develop peacefully only if it maintained its delicate domestic political and interethnic balance. This balance was destroyed by absolutely barbarous methods with prompting from the West that was trying to achieve its geopolitical goal of cultivating territories that had once been part of a uniform state inhabited by Russians and Russian-speakers that were historically oriented toward Moscow.
After the new, illegitimate powers in Kiev threatened the eastern regions that supported the overthrown President, Crimea withdrew from Ukraine. In full compliance with international law, its residents freely expressed their will in favour of re-unification with Russia.
An armed uprising flared up in Donbass mostly populated by Russians. The Kiev regime did not even try to settle the problem by political and diplomatic means. For many years, it was methodically exterminating the residents of the region just because they wanted to speak Russian, their native tongue, respect their history and honour the memory of their fathers and grandfathers, heroes of the Great Patriotic War, which liberated the nations of Europe from the horrors of Hitlerism almost 80 years ago.
Viewing Ukraine as a military ram against Russia, the United States and EU countries were pushing the Kiev regime to resolve the "Donbass problem" by force - through the ethnic cleansing of its Russian and Russian-speaking residents. It is enough to recall the cynical admissions by the former leaders of Germany and France, Angela Merkel and Francois Hollande, about the Minsk Package of Measures which they helped draft along with President Vladimir Putin. They said the whole point of working on this agreement was to gain time and allow Kiev to build up its military capacity.
These dramatic developments left Russia no other choice than to recognise the independence of the Donetsk and Lugansk people's republics and sign with them treaties on friendship, cooperation and mutual assistance in full accordance with international law. Then - in response to their official appeals for aid and in full compliance with Article 51 of the UN Charter on the right to self-defence - we launched the special military operation to protect the people in this region and remove the military threat posed to them by the Kiev regime.
Why doesn't the armed confrontation in Ukraine come to an end? The answer is very simple - it will continue until the West gives up its plans to preserve its domination and overcome its obsessive desire to inflict on Russia a strategic defeat at the hands of its Kiev puppets. For the time being, there are no signs of change in this position. We are seeing that the Americans and their vassals continue feverishly pumping Ukraine full of arms and pushing Vladimir Zelensky to continue hostilities.
It is telling that the West is ignoring the initiatives of the developing nations, for instance, the proposals by Indonesian President Joko Widodo. During his visit to Moscow on June 30, 2022, he spoke about the need for ceasefire, humanitarian assistance and food security and expressed willingness to "develop communication" between the leaders of Russia and Ukraine.
On June 3 of this year, Defence Minister of Indonesia Prabowo Subianto also spoke about settlement of the crisis in Ukraine. But Kiev instantly rejected his idea by saying that it needed no mediators right now.
The so-called "peace formula" suggested by Zelensky is a symptom of the aggressive mood of Kiev and its external patrons. They are trying to push it through as the only possible option for settlement. In effect, it consists of a package of ultimatums for Russia - a demand to stage a trial of its military-political leadership and take off its material assets in the form of reparations. To legitimise these demands that have nothing to do with seeking a real settlement, they are trying to convene some "peace summit" in the near future, to which they are inviting developing nations. I am sure the Indonesians understand perfectly well the harmful motive behind these plans and will not yield to the false rhetoric of those that stand for fighting to the last Ukrainian.
Question: How is Russia going to push for achieving a new balance in international politics and what path is it going to take? A new Cold War is believed to be ongoing. What are its ramifications for the political economy of the world? What policy is Russia pursuing in the new cold war?
Sergey Lavrov: We do not define the current phase of international relations as a new Cold War. The issue at hand is different and is about something different, namely, the formation of a multipolar international order. This is an objective process. Everyone can see that new globally meaningful decision-making centres are strengthening their positions in Eurasia, the Asia-Pacific region, the Middle East, Africa, and Latin America. These countries and their associations promote values such as national interests, independence, sovereignty, cultural and civilisational identity and international cooperation. In other words, they are fully within the global development trend and are, as a result, going from success to success.
With regard to the US-led collective West, these countries are trying to slow these processes down and turn them around. Their goal is not to strengthen global security or engage in joint development, but to maintain their hegemony in international affairs and to keep on pursuing their neo-colonial agenda, or in simple terms, to continue to address their own problems at the expense of others, as they are accustomed to do.
Unilateral economic sanctions and our Western colleagues' overall selfish foreign policy undermine global food and energy security. Their actions have complicated things for the developing countries. Enormous amounts of money that could have been spent on promoting international growth, including on helping the countries that are most in need, are being burned up in the form of thousands of tonnes of military equipment and ammunition supplied to Ukrainian neo-Nazis.
However, this coin has a brighter side. Western egocentrism and disregard for the interests of the Global South and Global East encourage the latter to look for alternative cooperation formats across all areas. The seizure of Russian gold and currency reserves in the United States and Europe have led the international community to realise that no one is immune from expropriation of tangible assets that are kept in Western jurisdictions. Not just Russia, but a number of other countries are consistently reducing their dependence on the US dollar and transitioning to alternative payment systems and payments in national currencies.
At the same time, the effectiveness of country associations without Western participation is on the rise. The SCO and BRICS are a case of modern multilateral diplomacy without leaders or followers where decisions are made based on consensus. We welcome Indonesia's interest in strengthening cooperation with these associations, which undoubtedly have a great future.
Question: In Russia's opinion, where does Indonesia stand in today's polarised world, including Asia and Southeast Asia? How are Russia-Indonesia relations doing under the pressure exerted by major global powers?
Sergey Lavrov: Indonesia is the world's largest Muslim country in terms of population, a leader of the Association of Southeast Asian Nations and one of Russia's key partners in the Asia-Pacific region. We welcome our Indonesian friends' commitment to building bilateral relations on the basis of equality, consideration of each other's interests and respect for the principle of equal and indivisible security.
We greatly appreciate Jakarta's independent foreign policy designed to promote the creation of a more equitable international order and the interests of the Global East and Global South, to achieve the Sustainable Development Goals and to settle existing conflicts. Indonesia's successful G20 presidency last year reaffirmed its important role in international affairs.
I am pleased to note that despite the illegitimate anti-Russian sanctions imposed by Washington and its satellites, Russian-Indonesian cooperation has retained its constructive spirit. We have formed an extensive legal and contractual framework relying on the Declaration on the Foundations of Friendly and Partner Relations in the 21st Century signed in 2003.
Today, we can say that our relations have reached the level of a strategic partnership. Our political dialogue is marked by high intensity. In June 2022, Moscow hosted talks between President Vladimir Putin and President Joko Widodo. In December 2022, Federation Council Speaker Valentina Matvienko paid a working visit to Jakarta.
Trade and economic cooperation is expanding. In 2022, trade increased by almost 45 percent to $4.79 billion.
We focus greatly on mutual trade liberalisation within the EAEU-Indonesia format. The negotiating process on a free trade agreement is on track to become a success.
As a foreign minister, I would like to emphasise our constructive cooperation at the United Nations and other multilateral forums covering a wide range of pressing international issues, including food and energy security. This year, we are working closely with Jakarta as the current ASEAN Chair on the agendas of the EAS, ARF, ADMM-Plus, and the Russia-ASEAN Strategic Partnership.
Question: What can Russia propose doing to help Indonesia and ASEAN deal with the Myanmar situation? What does Russia think about ASEAN's authority and centrality at a time where Russia is open to a dialogue with Myanmar's military? Will you attend the ASEAN meeting in July? If so, what are your priorities?
Sergey Lavrov: In our contacts with the Naypyidaw authorities, we have consistently emphasised ASEAN's central role in international efforts to resolve the situation in Myanmar. We support the Indonesian Chairmanship's efforts to give an additional boost to the collective steps to implement the Five-Point Consensus. We note ASEAN's role in mobilising humanitarian assistance to the people in need.
We believe that the collective efforts by the ten ASEAN nations and other countries that have a stake in the Myanmar issue should be based on close cooperation with the Naypyidaw authorities. It is important to prevent differences in choosing the best ways to promote a settlement in that country from negatively affecting the unity of the association and its centrality to regional affairs.
We firmly believe that the international community is called upon to help normalise the situation in Myanmar without interfering in its domestic affairs. We invariably adhere to this principled position as we construct our relations with the Myanmar leadership, regardless of specific individuals or political forces at the helm.
My immediate plans include a trip to the ASEAN ministerial meetings in Jakarta. We pay special attention to promoting strategic partnership with the association which will turn five years in 2023. The history of our ties goes back more than three decades. Their continued development is among Russia's foreign policy priorities, which fact is enshrined in the revised Foreign Policy Concept approved by President Vladimir Putin in late March, 2023.
The Russia-ASEAN Comprehensive Action Plan approved by the leaders in 2021 is being implemented with a great deal of dynamism. Lively political dialogue has been established. Sector-specific interaction, with its traditional focus on scientific research and high technology, is expanding. This, in particular, was demonstrated by the Russia-ASEAN Year of Science and Technology Cooperation in 2022. Our agenda includes launching new areas of cooperation, including digital transformation and smart cities, as well as energy and food security.
At the East Asia Summit, Russia put forward an array of specific ideas, including the launch of a collective response mechanism for pandemic threats, the expansion of tourism agency cooperation, and the establishment of ties between volunteer organisations. ASEAN has supported us in all the above areas of focus.
Acting within the ARF framework, which marks its 30th anniversary this year, we focus on ensuring the safe use of ICT and mitigating nuclear risks. Russia has come up with practical initiatives in these areas.
We are working towards strengthening ASEAN architecture for stability and cooperation in the Asia-Pacific Region. Backed by certain regional players, the United States and its NATO allies are pursuing the launch of alternative bloc structures, including under the Indo-Pacific brand. These endeavours are designed not to promote cooperation, but to contain and confront, which is subjecting the ASEAN-centric system to a serious strength test. Russia is a reliable supporter of the association. The extrapolation to the Asia-Pacific Region of the negative scenarios that have been staged by the United States and NATO in other parts of the world must be prevented.
Question: Considering the current state of regional and global affairs, especially as regards stability and security as well as food, energy, medical security and trade, what can Russia offer Indonesia and other Indo-Pacific countries?
Sergey Lavrov: Of course, we have what to offer the countries of the Asia-Pacific Region and the Indian Ocean. Russia is one of the world's leading suppliers of food, oil, gas and precious minerals, including rare-earth metals. The majority of Russian agricultural exports (60 percent) goes to Asian states. During the past year, our foreign trade with many international partners, including Asian countries, grew multiple times over.
Russia has achieved impressive results in developing a cluster of high-tech production. Our country is among the world's top ten in digitisation of government services, scientific achievements and inventions in robotics, quantum technology, artificial intelligence and smart cities. ASEAN epidemiologists learned about our practices on countering infectious diseases during a three-year programme of upgrading courses, which was completed in late 2022.
The issues of energy and food security have moved to the fore of our dialogue with the ASEAN countries due to the difficult situation in the global economy. In addition to the traditional oil-and-gas and coal sectors, the recently adopted Russia-ASEAN working plan on energy devotes considerable attention to renewable energy sources as well as to nuclear and low-carbon energy.
Our experts are ready to discuss measures on deepening cooperation on food.
As for Indonesia, Russia is willing to increase its exports of wheat and meat (including meat in compliance with halal standards) to your country. We are interested in expanding such cooperation in Russia's Muslim regions.
We are convinced that an increase in supplies of Russian oil and oil products would contribute to Jakarta's energy security. We are ready to share with you our advanced solutions in the peaceful nuclear industry, including the construction of modern NPPs of big and small capacity, the non-energy use of nuclear technology, development of nuclear infrastructure and training of personnel.
We are carefully studying opportunities for the involvement of Russian transport as well as information and communication companies in developing comprehensive infrastructure for the new capital - Nusantara - in East Kalimantan.
The experience of countering the COVID-19 pandemic has shown that there are considerable opportunities for bilateral cooperation in fighting epidemiological diseases.
Consultations on using national currencies in mutual transactions would meet the interests of practical cooperation between Russia and ASEAN countries, including Indonesia. We are ready for practical work in this and all other areas I mentioned.
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