DATE=10/03/98
TYPE=ON THE LINE
NUMBER=1-00675
TITLE=CAN DEMOCRACY DEVELOP IN CHINA?
EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY - 619-0037
CONTENT=
THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE
ANNCR: ON THE LINE -- A DISCUSSION OF UNITED STATES
POLICIES AND CONTEMPORARY ISSUES. THIS WEEK,
"CAN DEMOCRACY DEVELOP IN CHINA?" HERE IS YOUR
HOST, ROBERT REILLY.
HOST: HELLO AND WELCOME TO ON THE LINE. OVER THE PAST
DECADE, CHINA HAS MADE GREAT ECONOMIC PROGRESS
AND THE COMMUNIST PARTY HAS LOOSENED ITS
ABSOLUTE CONTROL OVER PEOPLE'S LIVES. AT THE
RECENT 15TH COMMUNIST PARTY CONGRESS, CHINESE
PRESIDENT JIANG ZEMIN CALLED FOR FURTHER
REFORMS, INCLUDING MULTIPLE FORMS OF OWNERSHIP
AND A SMALLER STATE SECTOR. THIS HAS LED MANY
PEOPLE TO EXPECT THAT ECONOMIC GROWTH WILL
GRADUALLY LEAD TO A MORE LAW-BASED SOCIETY WITH
POLITICAL FREEDOMS. YET RECENT ATTEMPTS BY
CHINESE DISSIDENTS TO REGISTER A NEW POLITICAL
PARTY AND TO QUALIFY AS INDEPENDENT CANDIDATES
IN LOCAL ELECTIONS HAVE MET WITH RESISTANCE.
JOINING ME TODAY TO DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITY OF
DEMOCRATIC DEVELOPMENT IN CHINA ARE THREE
EXPERTS. CHARLES HORNER IS SENIOR FELLOW AT THE
HUDSON INSTITUTE AND A FORMER ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR
OF THE U.S. INFORMATION AGENCY. HARRY WU IS A
FORMER POLITICAL PRISONER FROM CHINA. HE IS NOW
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE LAOGAI RESEARCH
FOUNDATION, WHICH IS DEDICATED TO DOCUMENTING
THE FORCED LABOR SYSTEM IN CHINA. AND STEPHEN
YATES IS CHINA POLICY ANALYST AT THE HERITAGE
FOUNDATION. WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.
CHARLES HORNER, HOW DO YOU READ THE SIGNIFICANCE
OF THESE RECENT ACTIVITIES IN CHINA THAT I JUST
MENTIONED -- THE ATTEMPT TO REGISTER A POLITICAL
PARTY AND THE RESPONSE OF THE GOVERNMENT?
HORNER: THERE SEEMS TO BE QUITE A LOT GOING ON AT THE
VARIOUS ENDS OF THE SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE IN
CHINA. I THINK THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT THERE'S
BEEN RENEWED ACTIVITY ON THE PART OF MANY HUMAN
RIGHTS ACTIVISTS, IN PART, ENCOURAGED BY THE
GREATER INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION, THE VISIT OF
THE U-N COMMISSIONER ON HUMAN RIGHTS, MRS.
[MARY] ROBINSON AND OTHERS. CHINA'S
ANNOUNCEMENT THAT IT WANTS TO ADHERE TO SOME OF
THESE INTERNATIONAL COVENANTS HAS BEEN VERY
ENCOURAGING TO PEOPLE ON THE SCENE. AND THERE
MAY BE SOME REASON TO BELIEVE THAT AT THE TOP OF
THE SYSTEM, THERE'S AT LEAST A NEW OPENNESS TO
THE IDEA, NOT SO MUCH OF POLITICAL
LIBERALIZATION AS WE WOULD CALL IT, BUT TO THE
IDEA THAT THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME CHANGE, SOME
GREATER RATIONALITY IN THE SYSTEM OF GOVERNANCE
FOR THE WHOLE COUNTRY TO DEAL WITH WHAT IS NOW A
MORE COMPLICATED SOCIETY WITH MUCH MORE COMPLEX
RELATIONS INSIDE THE COUNTRY AND WITH OTHER
COUNTRIES.
HOST: HARRY WU, WHAT IS YOUR ANALYSIS OF THE
SITUATION?
WU: I THINK CHINA TODAY IS IN A VERY CRITICAL
SITUATION. IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS, MAYBE
SOMETHING COULD HAPPEN IN CHINA.
HOST: WHAT IS CRITICAL ABOUT THIS SITUATION?
WU: CRITICAL MEANS THE ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT IS BEING
LED BY A CAPITALIST SYSTEM, BUT THE SOCIALIST
SYSTEM IS THE BASE OF THE COMMUNIST REGIME. AND
THE PEOPLE TODAY DON'T TRUST COMMUNISTS.
PARTICULARLY RECENTLY, THERE'S A PROBLEM AS
JIANG ZEMIN AND ZHU RONGJI TRY TO STOP THE
MILITARY FROM DOING BUSINESS. THAT COULD BECOME
A VERY SERIOUS INTERNAL STRUGGLE PROBLEM. AND I
WANT TO SAY THAT NOBODY PREDICTED THAT THE
BERLIN WALL WOULD PEACEFULLY COME DOWN, BUT IT
DID. AND IN CHINA IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS,
YOU WILL SEE SOME DRAMATIC CHANGES. THE TIME IS
COMING.
HOST: AND POSSIBLY PEACEFUL CHANGE?
WU: I DON'T KNOW. IT'S DIFFICULT TO PREDICT.
HOST: STEPHEN YATES, WHAT IS YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE
SITUATION?
YATES: I THINK FOR DEMOCRACY TO BE SUSTAINABLE IN
CHINA, IT NEEDS TO OPEN UP GRADUALLY OVER A
LONGER PERIOD OF TIME. I THINK THAT THERE IS AN
INCREASED AWARENESS OF MANY CHINESE PEOPLE OF
WHAT DEMOCRACY CAN DO. TAIWAN BUSINESS PEOPLE
AND TOURISTS HAVE GONE TO MANY PLACES INSIDE OF
CHINA. THERE'S MORE INFORMATION GETTING IN.
PEOPLE KNOW SOME OF THEIR OPTIONS. AND SO I
THINK THAT THE IDEAS THAT WILL BE THE BEDROCK OF
A DEMOCRATIC TRANSFORMATION ARE THERE. THE
POTENTIAL IS THERE. BUT I THINK THERE'S ALSO A
GREAT RESISTANCE TO LOSING POWER. AND SO AS
LONG AS THE DEMOCRATIC DEVELOPMENTS AT THE
VILLAGE LEVEL HELP SHARE THE BLAME FOR SOME OF
THE ECONOMIC PROBLEMS THAT THEY'RE GOING TO BE
FACING WHILE THEY REFORM ALL PARTS OF THEIR
ECONOMY, THEY'LL SHARE THAT LOW LEVEL. BUT I
THINK THE SHIFT UP HIGHER AND HIGHER IS GOING TO
TAKE A VERY LONG TIME. I AGREE WITH HARRY,
THOUGH, THAT THE STAKES ARE VERY HIGH OVER THE
NEAR TERM. THE ECONOMIC TRANSFORMATION IS GOING
TO BE PAINFUL. MANY PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LOSE
WORK. CAN THE GOVERNMENT DEAL WITH DISLOCATION
IN SOCIETY IN AN EFFECTIVE WAY. IN A DEMOCRACY,
YOU CAN BECAUSE ONE REGIME CAN BE VOTED OUT FOR
AN ALTERNATIVE. IN AN AUTHORITARIAN GOVERNMENT
LIKE WE SAW IN INDONESIA, WHEN YOU CAN'T VOTE AN
INCOMPETENT REGIME OUT, IT COULD LEAD TO
VIOLENCE OF SOME KIND IN THE STREETS.
HOST: DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT, CHARLES HORNER?
HORNER: I THINK ONE OF THE IMPORTANT DECISIONS THAT'S
GOING TO BE MADE BY PEOPLE IN CHINA IS HOW YOU
ACCOUNT FOR, EXPLAIN AND, AS IT WERE, WHO GETS
BLAMED FOR THE ANCILLARY PROBLEMS THAT HAVE COME
ABOUT AS A RESULT OF THE RAPID MODERNIZATION
ECONOMICALLY, AND HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH IT? IT'S
BEEN A WONDERFUL THING FOR MANY HUNDREDS OF
MILLIONS OF CHINESE PEOPLE, BUT THERE HAVE ALSO
BEEN ENORMOUS PROBLEMS, LOTS OF UPSET, LOTS OF
CORRUPTION, LOTS OF ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE, ALL OF
THESE KINDS OF THINGS. SO THE QUESTION IS, HOW
IS THE POLITY AS A WHOLE, THE WHOLE SYSTEM GOING
TO RESPOND? IS IT GOING TO SAY THAT IT NEEDS TO
REVERT TO A MORE AUTHORITARIAN SYSTEM TO DEAL
WITH THIS KIND OF THING? OR IS IT GOING TO
UNDERSTAND THAT THIS SOCIETY NEEDS NOW TO MOVE
TO THE NEXT STAGE OF REFORM? AND ONE HOPES THAT
JIANG ZEMIN MIGHT DECIDE THAT THAT'S THE LEGACY
HE WANTS TO LEAVE TO THE COUNTRY, IN A WAY THAT
DENG XIAOPING'S ECONOMIC REFORMS BECAME VERY
IMPORTANT ALSO. BUT I THINK THAT REMAINS TO BE
SEEN. AND, IN THAT SENSE, HARRY IS QUITE RIGHT.
THIS COMING PERIOD COULD BE VERY CRITICAL
INDEED.
WU: I'LL JUST SAY DEMOCRACY, OF COURSE, IS THERE FOR
THE CHINESE. BUT MAYBE I JUST AGREE WITH
STEPHEN THAT IT WILL TAKE A COUPLE OF DECADES,
MAYBE A COUPLE OF GENERATIONS. THE COMMUNIST
SYSTEM IS FINISHED IN CHINA. IT DOESN'T MEAN
CHINA WILL, RIGHT AWAY, TURN INTO A DEMOCRATIC
SOCIETY. OF COURSE, THE COMMUNISTS ARE FIGHTING
TO SURVIVE AND THEY ARE USING ALL KINDS OF
OPPORTUNITIES FOR THEIR POLITICAL ALLEGATIONS.
FOR EXAMPLE, IF SOMETHING HAPPENS INTERNALLY IN
THE PARTY OR GOVERNMENT SYSTEM OR IN THE NATION,
THEY CAN USE THE TAIWAN ISSUE TO CREATE ANOTHER
DIPLOMATIC AND CIVIL WAR ISSUE TO COVER THEIR
OWN PROBLEMS. TODAY, THEY STILL SUPPORT NORTH
KOREA. NORTH KOREA IS A BIG CARD FOR THEM. THEY
ALSO SUPPORT IRAQ. IF SOMETHING HAPPENED IN
HONG KONG THAT CAUSES A PROBLEM, THE WHOLE
ECONOMIC SYSTEM WOULD COLLAPSE. THE AUTHORITIES
WILL NEVER VOLUNTARILY GIVE UP.
HOST: ON THE OTHER HAND, MENTIONING HONG KONG RAISES
AN INTERESTING QUESTION. I THINK THE CHINESE
WERE TOLD THAT THE ASSIMILATION OF HONG KONG WAS
GOING TO BE MORE OR LESS A LITMUS TEST FOR THE
WEST TO SEE WHETHER THEY WERE CAPABLE OF KEEPING
THEIR WORD OF ONE CHINA, TWO SYSTEMS. HAVE THEY
KEPT THEIR WORD? HOW IS THAT WORKING OUT?
YATES: I DON'T THINK THERE'S BEEN ANY CLEAR BREACH OF
THE CONTRACT, IN TERMS OF POLITICALLY HAVING
GROSS INTERFERENCE IN HONG KONG'S OWN SYSTEM.
AND I DON'T THINK THERE'S BEEN A GROSS
INTERFERENCE BY HONG KONG IN CHINA'S POLITICAL
SYSTEM. THEY ARE DEEPLY INTERLINKED,
CULTURALLY, ECONOMICALLY AND IN MANY OTHER
IMPORTANT WAYS. SO IT'S NOT AS IF THERE IS A
WALL THAT INSULATES ONE COMPLETELY FROM THE
OTHER. BUT IN TERMS OF THE LETTER OF THE
AGREEMENTS, THERE HASN'T BEEN ANY VIOLATION OF
THE LETTER. NOW, SOME WOULD SAY IN SPIRIT,
THERE ARE OTHER WAYS OF EXERTING INFLUENCE
INSIDE OF HONG KONG, RATHER THAN GOING IN AND
PUTTING YOUR OWN CANDIDATES UP FOR ELECTION OR
SUBVERTING THE SYSTEM OF ELECTIONS IN HONG KONG.
THAT KIND OF GROSS ACTION HASN'T OCCURRED YET.
BUT SOME FEAR THAT IT MAY BE IN THE OFFING.
HORNER: CHINA ALWAYS EXERTED A TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF
INFLUENCE INSIDE HONG KONG EVEN BEFORE THEY TOOK
OVER THE PLACE FORMALLY. BUT I THINK IT HAS
BEEN FOR MANY PEOPLE WHO WERE ANXIOUS ABOUT IT,
EVEN FOR MANY OF THE PEOPLE INSIDE HONG KONG, A
RATHER PLEASANT SURPRISE, AT LEAST SO FAR. AS
STEVE SAID, THE LETTER, AND A CERTAIN DEGREE OF
THE SPIRIT OF THIS, HAS BEEN MAINTAINED. AND
IT'S CERTAINLY A PECULIAR ARRANGEMENT BECAUSE
AFTER ALL IT IS A SINGLE SOVEREIGNTY AND YOU
HAVE THESE RATHER DIVERGENT, AT LEAST
PHILOSOPHICALLY INCOMPATIBLE SYSTEMS IN BEIJING
AND IN HONG KONG WITH THE IDEA NOW THAT IN SOME
MANNER, SHAPE OR FORM TAIWAN IN SOME WAY MAY YET
COME TO BE INCLUDED OR AT LEAST AFFILIATED WITH
IT IN SOME WAY. AND THAT, ITSELF, WOULD SEEM TO
BE A SOMEWHAT ENCOURAGING SIGN. AFTER ALL, ONE
OF THE THINGS ONE WANTS FROM A REGIME IS
TOLERANCE OF OTHER ARRANGEMENTS. BUT LET'S JUST
REMEMBER THAT HONG KONG IS SIX AND A HALF
MILLION PEOPLE. TAIWAN IS TWENTY-ODD MILLION
AND CHINA PROPER ITSELF CONTAINS PERHAPS A
BILLION, TWO HUNDRED MILLION PEOPLE. SO WE'RE
NOT TALKING ABOUT ANYTHING APPROXIMATING A
BALANCE YET IN THE SYSTEMS.
HOST: INTERESTINGLY, I THINK THAT THE HONG KONG MEDIA,
WHICH REMAIN RELATIVELY FREE, ARE REACHING SOME
FIFTY MILLION PEOPLE ON THE MAINLAND, WHO
RECEIVE THOSE TELEVISION PROGRAMS UNINTERFERED
WITH.
YATES: THERE'S NO DOUBT THAT PEOPLE, THROUGH SATELLITE
TELEVISION, THROUGH NEWS MEDIA, THROUGH THE
INTERNET IN MOST PLACES -- SOME HAVE BLOCKED
SITES -- BUT THROUGH MANY MEANS, PEOPLE GET AN
INCREASED VARIETY OF WESTERN MEDIA. AND THEY
CAN GET THEIR STORIES FROM THE OUTSIDE. BUT
REALLY FOR A LONG TIME, I WONDER HOW MANY PEOPLE
INSIDE OF CHINA HAVE BEEN FOOLED BY THE
GOVERNMENT INTO BELIEVING THE MESSAGE, OR THEY
WERE JUST WISE ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT IF THEY
CROSSED THE GOVERNMENT THAT THEY WOULD BE HURT.
AND SO I DON'T THINK THAT THERE'S A DESPERATE
NEED FOR PEOPLE TO HEAR THE GOSPEL OF FREE
MARKET DEMOCRACY, AS MUCH AS THEY REALLY NEED TO
FIND A WAY TO EMPOWER THEMSELVES TO BE ABLE TO
ENACT FREE MARKET DEMOCRACY.
HOST: WHAT WE'RE SEEING, AT LEAST IN THIS ATTEMPT TO
REGISTER THE CHINA DEMOCRACY PARTY OR ON THE
PART OF INDIVIDUALS TO REGISTER THEMSELVES IN
LOCAL ELECTIONS, IS A VERY BOLD THING TO HAVE
UNDERTAKEN. I BELIEVE THEY FIRST TRIED IT WHEN
PRESIDENT CLINTON WAS VISITING THERE AND THEY
WERE LOCKED UP FOR THE PERIOD OF HIS VISIT. AND
NOW WHEN, AS YOU MENTIONED, U-N HIGH
COMMISSIONER FOR HUMAN RIGHTS MARY ROBINSON
VISITS, THEY TRIED IT AGAIN. AND IT SEEMED AT
FIRST TO BE AT LEAST UNDER CONSIDERATION IN SOME
PROVINCES. NOW THESE PEOPLE ARE UNDER HOUSE
ARREST OR THEY'RE IN JAIL. YET A HUNDRED AND
EIGHTY SOME DISSIDENTS HAVE SENT A LETTER TO
PRESIDENT JIANG ZEMIN SAYING LET THEM GO.
HORNER: BUT THE MATING DANCE HERE, IF WE CAN USE THAT
PHRASE, IS A LOT MORE COMPLICATED THAN IT ONCE
WAS. WE ALWAYS HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT SOME OF
THESE THINGS TWENTY YEARS AGO WOULD HAVE BEEN
TOTALLY UNIMAGINABLE. SO I THINK THAT WE MAY BE
ON A CERTAIN GLIDE PATH. A VERY IMPORTANT THING
FOR PEOPLE IN THE WEST TO UNDERSTAND IS WE NOW
KNOW THE NAMES OF PEOPLE IN CHINA WHO ADVOCATE
DEMOCRACY. WE KNOW THEIR NAMES. WE KNOW HOW TO
GET IN TOUCH WITH THEM. THEY KNOW HOW TO GET IN
TOUCH WITH US. AND IF BEGIN TO COMPARE WHAT
HAPPENED IN THE SOVIET UNION WITH THE RISE OF
THE DISSIDENT MOVEMENT, THOSE KINDS OF THINGS
ARE CRITICAL THRESHOLDS THAT YOU CROSS.
HOST: HARRY WU.
WU: ROBERT, YOU JUST MENTIONED THAT SOME PEOPLE IN
CHINA WANT TO REGISTER AS AN OPPOSITION PARTY.
THIS IS A SIGNIFICANT INDICATION IN CHINESE
HISTORY SINCE 1949. FOR FORTY NINE YEARS, NO
ONE DARED TO CHALLENGE THE COMMUNIST PARTY.
EVEN LATER IT WOULD NOT HAPPEN. BUT, ANYWAY,
THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT INDICATION.
HOST: AND ARE YOU ENCOURAGED BY IT?
WU: OF COURSE I'M ENCOURAGED BY IT BECAUSE THIS IS
AN HISTORICAL CHANGE. BUT I WANT TO SUGGEST
THAT WE HIGHLY PAY ATTENTION TO THE OTHER ISSUE.
I THINK THIS ISSUE IS MORE IMPORTANT. WHEN
ZIANG ZEMIN AND ZHU RONGJI, A COUPLE OF WEEKS
AGO, ASKED THE MILITARY AND SECURITY NOT TO DO
BUSINESS, THAT CAUSED A BIG INTERNAL PROBLEM.
IF THE MILITARY WITHDRAWS SUPPORT FROM ZIANG
ZEMIN AND ZHU RONGJI, THAT BECOMES A VERY
SERIOUS POWER STRUGGLE. TODAY, THE MILITARY
BUSINESSES GAIN ABOUT TEN BILLION IN PROFIT.
IT'S EQUAL TO THE DEFENSE BUDGET. YOU WANT TO
CUT IT OFF?
HOST: I THINK HE GAVE HIM SEVERAL YEARS TO GET THE
MILITARY OUT OF BUSINESS.
WU: TWENTY THOUSAND BUSINESSES AND TWO THOUSAND
OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY.
HORNER: THERE'S ALSO A CERTAIN ELEMENT IN THE MILITARY,
IN THINKING ABOUT THE PROFESSIONALIZATION AND
THE MODERNIZATION OF THE CHINESE MILITARY,
THAT'S GOING TO BE CALLED FOR, WHICH UNDERSTANDS
THAT THIS KIND OF BUSINESS ACTIVITY AND THE
CORRUPTION AND LET US JUST SAY INATTENTION IS
NOT GOOD FOR THE DEVELOPMENT OF MILITARY POWER.
IT'S AS IF SOMEHOW OUR SENIOR GENERALS HERE WERE
RUNNING HOTEL CHAINS AND DOING OTHER THINGS. I
THINK THERE'S GOING TO BE AN IMPORTANT STRUGGLE
INSIDE THE MILITARY AMONG THOSE WHO ARE MORE
MODERN MINDED AND WANT TO HAVE MODERNIZATION,
AND, IRONICALLY, THOSE OF US OUTSIDE THE COUNTRY
CONCERNED BY THE FUTURE DIRECTION OF CHINESE
MILITARY POWER, WHO MIGHT WONDER WHETHER OR NOT
WE ARE, IN THE LONG RUN, BETTER OFF HAVING THESE
FOLKS IN THE HOTEL BUSINESS RATHER THAN HAVING
THEM MORE SERIOUSLY INVOLVED IN MODERNIZING THE
ARMED FORCES OF CHINA.
YATES: THE FACT IS, I THINK THIS EXPOSED AN UNDERLYING
WEAKNESS IN CHINA'S MILITARY THAT'S EXISTED FOR
A LONG TIME. WHAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS BEEN DOING
IS TURNING A BLIND EYE TO THESE ACTIVITIES
BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO PAY THE WAGES FOR
THIS BLOATED MILITARY. THEY HAVE TO DOWNSIZE
SIGNIFICANTLY. AND THEY HAVE TO EMPHASIZE
TRAINING ON THE CORE GROUP THAT THEY KEEP, IF
THEY REALLY WANT TO HAVE THE DREAM OF THIS
MIGHTY MODERN MILITARY THAT THEY HAVE. AND IT
IS AN OPEN QUESTION TODAY IN CHINESE POLITICS
HOW MUCH POWER THE MILITARY HAS. IN THE PAST
IT'S JUST BEEN A DICTUM OF CHINA STUDIES THAT
THE MILITARY IS THE KEY DETERMINANT OF WHO HOLDS
POWER INSIDE OF CHINA. AND TODAY PEOPLE ARE
QUESTIONING THAT. BUT I THINK WE'RE AT THE
STAGE OF QUESTIONING THE MILITARY'S ROLE. IT'S
KIND OF WHAT HARRY WAS TALKING ABOUT. WE'RE AT
THIS STAGE WHERE WE'VE GOT A PARTY READY TO TRY
TO REGISTER. THAT DOESN'T MEAN DEMOCRACY IS
HERE, BUT IT'S REALLY A FIRST TIME WE'RE HAVING
THIS BIG PROFOUND QUESTION RAISED.
HOST: CHINA HAS AGREED TO SIGN THE INTERNATIONAL
COVENANT ON SOCIAL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS. IS
THAT IMPORTANT?
HORNER: IT'S IMPORTANT TO THIS EXTENT. FIRST OF ALL,
THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT DOES PAY A CERTAIN AMOUNT
OF ATTENTION TO CEREMONY AND PRONOUNCEMENT, AND
SO ON. AND THE FACT THAT THE FOREIGN MINISTER
OF CHINA WOULD GO BEFORE THE UNITED NATIONS
GENERAL ASSEMBLY AND SAY THAT THEY WERE GOING TO
DO THIS AND ANNOUNCE, I BELIEVE IT'S IN OCTOBER,
THAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IT. THEY HAVE OTHER
AGREEMENTS THAT THEY'VE SIGNED WHICH THEY CLAIM
THEY'RE GOING TO RATIFY. THE SIGNIFICANCE OF
THAT IS THAT IT INVOLVES THEM NOW IN A
DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS WITH THE WHOLE WORLD, AND
NOT JUST THE UNITED STATES OR NATO OR ANY OTHER
GROUP OF COUNTRIES. BUT AFTER ALL, IT IS A
UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS. AND
EVERYONE THEREFORE NOW HAS A PLAUSIBLE REASON TO
QUERY THE CHINESE ABOUT IMPLEMENTATION IN
PRACTICE. SO IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE A DIVISIVE
ISSUE.
HOST: WHICH LEADS YOU TO ASK THE QUESTION WHY WOULD
THEY AGREE TO SIGN IT, HARRY WU?
WU: I THINK THIS IS ANOTHER INDICATION THAT TELLS US
THAT THE COMMUNIST SYSTEM IN CHINA IS WEAKENING.
THEY HAVE TO WITHDRAW A FEW INCHES, TO BACK UP A
FEW INCHES AND PLAY THE GAME. IN THE CHINESE
CONSTITUTION, THEY ALREADY HAVE THAT KIND OF
ARTICLE -- FREEDOM OF ASSOCIATION, FREEDOM OF
RELIGION, FREEDOM OF SPEECH -- ALL THE TIME,
SINCE 1949. TO SIGN SUCH TINGS HAS NO REAL
MEANING BUT IT'S A SIGNIFICANT INDICATION. IT
MEANS THEY HAVE TO BACK UP.
HOST: HARRY WU, I WANTED TO ASK YOU BECAUSE YOU IN
YOUR LAOGAI FOUNDATON PAY SUCH CLOSE ATTENTION
TO FORCED LABOR, SLAVE LABOR IN CHINA. HAVE YOU
NOTICED ANY CHANGE IN THAT DIRECTION? ALL THE
ATTENTION THAT THAT SUBJECT HAS RECEIVED. HAVE
THE CHINESE RESPONDED IN ANY POSITIVE WAY OR DO
THEY CONTINUE TO DENY IT EXISTS?
WU: BASICALLY, I THINK EVERYBODY AGREES THAT THE
DICTATORS CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT THE SUPPRESSION
MACHINE. STALIN CANNOT SURVIVE WITHOUT THE
GULAG. IF YOU MAINTAIN A COMMUNIST TOTALITARIAN
SYSTEM, YOU NEED THE KIND OF SYSTEM TO KEEP THE
PEOPLE QUIET. SO THE LAOGAI IS PLAYED IN THIS
WAY. TODAY, MANY PEOPLE IN JAIL ARE KIND OF
ECONOMIC CRIMINALS OR SOME KIND OF PENAL
CRIMINALS. BUT IN THE MAIN, MANY PEOPLE REMAIN
IN JAIL AS COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARIES.
HOST: I'M AFRAID THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE THIS
WEEK. I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR GUESTS -- CHARLES
HORNER FROM THE HUDSON INSTITUTE; HARRY WU FROM
THE LAOGAI RESEARCH FOUNDATION; AND STEPHEN
YATES FROM THE HERITAGE FOUNDATION -- FOR
JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THE POSSIBILITY OF
DEMOCRATIC DEVELOPMENT IN CHINA. THIS IS ROBERT
REILLY FOR ON THE LINE.
02-Oct-98 1:59 PM EDT (1759 UTC)
NNNN
Source: Voice of America
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