27 April 2004
Powell Says Iraq Will Need to Cede Some Sovereignty
Says coalition forces must operate freely to be effective
Secretary of State Colin Powell said the Iraqi government that will take power on July 1 will need to cede some of its sovereignty to coalition forces, led by the United States, in order to adequately permit them to provide a secure environment for the government to operate and for elections to take place in January 2005.
"It's important to let the multi-national force be able to operate under its own command," Powell said in an interview April 26 in Washington with reporters from the Reuters news agency.
The new government will need help with security, he said, "and for us to provide that help, we have to be able to operate freely, which, in some ways, infringes on what some would call ‘full sovereignty.'"
Powell said the move was necessary due to the lack of time before the June 30 transfer of power to the Iraqi authorities.
"We need time to create a secure environment in which people can register, election commissions can get around, an electoral commission can be formed and can do its work, and I hope that the Iraqi people understand that it takes this kind of time and that they support this interim arrangement," he said.
"I think the Iraqi people will see on a day-to-day basis that this interim government is doing more and more things," Powell said, adding that when questions arise, "the faces that will answer those questions will be the president, the prime minister, the two deputy vice presidents and the cabinet ministers."
With the fighting in the Iraqi city of Fallujah continuing, the secretary said that after two weeks of trying to resolve the problem peacefully, "it might be necessary to take a rather aggressive military action."
"[T]he people of the city of Fallujah deserve peace," he said. "They deserve to be able to get medical support. They deserve to let their children go to school. And so this has to be resolved. We cannot tolerate a situation where armed thugs are denying people freedom of movement in their own city."
Powell said it was a "disgrace" that Iraqi fighters were using mosques and schools as bunkers. "I would hope that the people of Iraq would see what these individuals are doing, how they are desecrating their own religion by the use of mosques for this kind of purpose," he said.
Turning to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Powell said President Bush did not give away any concessions on the part of the Palestinians to Israeli Prime Minister Sharon.
"[A]t the end of the day, it is between the Palestinians and the Israelis to determine what they're going to do about armistice lines, ... even [the] right of return. It's between the two of them to decide that," he said.
He said that as a result of the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza, the Palestinians will gain possession of Israeli settlements for their own use. In the meantime, he said, "we should be focusing on how the Palestinian Authority can get ready to assume political control over Gaza and put in place a security system that will keep it firmly under Palestinian control."
On North Korea, Powell said that country would ultimately see that it is in their interest to participate in six-party talks that would include their neighbors, not just the United States, to find a diplomatic solution to the problem of their nuclear weapons program.
"It's a demonstration of our lack of a hostile intent toward them, or the fact that we have no desire to invade them, no interest in invading them and no reason to invade them," he said.
Powell also called upon Iran and Syria to recognize the benefits Libya has received from its decision to give up its weapons of mass destruction, "weapons that provided them no benefit before," he said.
"[F]rankly, we're impressed with what they have done in recent years: resolved the Pan Am 103 case, turned in all their weapons of mass destruction, have been very open in the process of turning in their weapons of mass destruction," he said, adding that there is a "clear road map" for Libya to follow that would lead toward full normalization of relations with the United States.
Lastly, Powell expressed disappointment over the decision by Greek Cypriots to reject the unification plan proposed by U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan, saying it would later be seen as a lost opportunity.
He said the Turkish Government and Turkish Cypriots showed great political courage by accepting the plan, adding that "there should be some benefits to the Turkish Cypriots for having voted ‘yes' for this plan."
However, the secretary did not say the United States was ready to recognize the independence of the Turkish part of the country.
"We're just looking at it right now, studying the consequences of the vote, and initially we'll watch to see what the European Union does," he said.
Following is the transcript of Powell's interview with the Reuters news agency:
(begin transcript)
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
April 26, 2004
INTERVIEW
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell With Mr. Mohammed and Mr. Hudson of Reuters
April 26, 2004
Washington, D.C.
(4:30 p.m. EDT)
MR. MOHAMMED: Thank you for taking the time to speak to us today.
You've said that Iraqi sovereignty will be limited after June 30th, at least, for example, to the extent that Iraqi armed forces will be under U.S. control, so you have unity of command. Why should Iraqis view their new government as legitimate if its sovereignty is limited in any way, and if they don't actually choose its members?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think we can make the case to the Iraqi people that they are getting full sovereignty; I hope that'll be accompanied by a UN resolution that also makes that case. And I hope they will understand that in order for this government to get up and running and to be effective, some of its sovereignty will have to be given back, if I can put it that way, or limited by them, an understanding by them that it's important to let the multi-national force be able to operate under its own command, U.S. command, with the Coalition forces under U.S. direction.
And I think the Iraqi people will see on a day-to-day basis that this interim government is doing more and more things: that when questions arise as to what's happening with respect to reconstruction, when questions arise as to what various ministries are doing, the faces that will answer those questions will be the president, the prime minister, the two deputy vice presidents and the cabinet ministers, and no CPA, no Ambassador Bremer.
The Ambassador going in, Ambassador Negroponte is not coming in as the head of the CPA. He's going in as our Chief of Mission, as an ambassador. And so it will all be in the daily experience of Iraqis as they see these individuals taking more and more control from day one on, I hope that they will exercise more and more control over the ministries, over the priorities for reconstruction, over answering questions of their people -- it is in our interest to have that happen.
So I have not used the words "limited sovereignty," but it's clear that they will not yet have, others on my staff may have, but I've sort of said, it's sovereignty. But part of that sovereignty will allow us to exercise on their behalf and with their permission.
It is not as if we're seizing anything away from them. It is with the understanding that they need our help. And for us to provide that help, we have to be able to operate freely, which, in some ways, infringes on what some would call "full sovereignty."
What the Iraqi people should look forward to, though, is that they're going to have national elections at the end of the year, the beginning of next year, where they will now have full legitimacy restored as a result of their elections.
So we have to get started. And the only way to get started as we see it is in this way. And it's important to do it in this way, with international support, because there isn't time to do it the other way. We need time to create a secure environment in which people can register, election commissions can get around, an electoral commission can be formed and can do its work, and I hope that the Iraqi people understand that it takes this kind of time and that they support this interim arrangement.
MR. MOHAMMED: As you seek a new UN Security Council resolution, which, among other things, you hope will bless this new government, are you getting any concerns from other Council members about the possibility that the sovereignty will be constrained even if by the --
SECRETARY POWELL: We haven't, we haven't fully engaged on this, but I'm sure it's an issue that will be discussed. But I think the other Security Council members will recognize that the situation that currently exists in Iraq is not conducive to not providing support to the new interim government; that to some extent affects their ability to exercise full sovereignty because they need us to work with them so that they can reach that day we all look forward to when elections are held and through those elections, a transitional government is selected by the Iraqi people.
I think the Iraqi people want to see Iraqi faces out there demonstrating responsibility, demonstrating accountability, working with their American friends, their British friends and all the other Coalition members. And I think that's the important thing. That's what they will gauge on, not legalistic definitions of sovereignty, limited sovereignty -- some other form of sovereignty. What they want to see is somebody that they can look to as representing the hopes, aspirations and dreams of the Iraqi people. And that can only be an Iraqi leader -- several Iraqi leaders, and cabinet ministers.
MR. MOHAMMED: When are you going to put forward a resolution?
SECRETARY POWELL: I don't know yet. I think some time, well, I don't even think I want to speculate yet because we want to get this done by the end of June, and we certainly want a resolution before then. But it's premature to say when we would put forward a resolution until Ambassador Brahimi has had a chance to brief Secretary General Annan, let us hear Secretary General Annan's reaction, and then Ambassador Brahimi will be going back to the region to continue his work, and it would be premature, really, to start talking about a resolution until we see the results of that work. So it's weeks away.
MR. HUDSON: Mr. Secretary, do you face a Hobson's choice in Fallujah and Najaf? If you don't attack, you end up leaving anti-American militants in place, but if you do, you risk alienating the population.
SECRETARY POWELL: We have to deal with these two situations.
In the case of Fallujah, the people of the city of Fallujah deserve peace. They deserve to be able to get medical support. They deserve to let their children go to school. And so this has to be resolved. We cannot tolerate a situation where armed thugs are denying people freedom of movement in their own city.
We want to do it peacefully. We want to do it working alongside Iraqis. And that's why we have engaged tribal leaders. We have engaged city fathers to talk to these thugs, as well as to speak to the people of Fallujah, saying, "They're not serving your interest; they are destroying your dreams for a better life, so don't support them. Let us know about them. Turn in their -- tell them to turn in their heavy weapons and turn themselves in or get out."
And we have been patient for the last couple of weeks while we've been trying to find a soft way to resolve this problem. But at the end of the day, it might be necessary to take a rather aggressive military action. I think the commanders on the ground understand the dangers in the overuse of force. They will be prudent in using surgical methods of eliminating these thugs and criminals, do it in a way that minimizes loss of innocent life or damages sites that should not be damaged.
We also have to make sure they're able to protect themselves. It really is a disgrace that these thugs are using places of worship, using schools and using other places where people should be educating children and not putting in bunkers. And I would hope that the people of Iraq would see what these individuals are doing, how they are desecrating their own religion by the use of mosques for this kind of purpose.
MR. HUDSON: The city shows the difficulties of the occupation and you've been quoted as expressing concern before the war about how difficult occupation would be. Did you ever consider resigning over those misgivings?
SECRETARY POWELL: No. I explained to my colleagues on the National Security Council and to the President the ups and the downs, the ins and the outs of this kind of an operation. But I was always supportive of what we were trying to do. I was always supportive of the policy of dealing with Saddam Hussein and his regime.
And I played a role in persuading the President that the right thing to do -- it didn't take much persuasion -- he saw it, was to try to find a diplomatic solution through the UN. And that's why he went to the UN in September, and that's why we worked hard throughout the remaining months of 2002, November and December -- after we got the resolution -- and into 2003, before taking military action. A solution was there. A diplomatic solution was there, but eventually the President concluded, we all concluded that it was not going to work; it was not time for this to work; and it was stringing it out. And the President made a decision that military action was appropriate.
I knew that was a decision that he might have to make if the diplomatic solution didn't work. He made that decision in March. And I knew that when that decision came, we would go to war. And so there's no, there's no conflict in my mind. There is no basis for me to consider whether or not I had done my job or should move on.
We wanted to get rid of that regime. That regime is gone. I'm pleased that Saddam Hussein is gone. There are no more mass graves being filled. And once we defeat these thugs, I'm pleased that I'll have a role to play in rebuilding Iraq that is going to rest on a foundation of democracy, and so the people are missing the point with respect to providing all aspects of a problem and analyzing all aspects of a problem, and somehow thinking that that means you are against the solution that's been decided upon. That was never my position.
MR. MOHAMMED: Forgive me. I should have asked you to look this way.
SECRETARY POWELL: I'll always love to see a peaceful, diplomatic solution to problems. That's what diplomats are supposed to do and secretary of states and most sensible generals, I think.
MR. MOHAMMED: I should have asked you to look this way for the sake of the cameras. My apologies.
You said that you'd been patient for a while, particularly in Fallujah. Is your patience running out?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, this is up to the commanders on the scene to decide, and we hope that over the next couple of days that we can get joint patrols started. We might see some improvement in the situation, but I'll let the commanders decide when it is time to take more direct military action.
MR. MOHAMMED: The handover of the arms by tomorrow, is not that a hard deadline for the possibility of action?
SECRETARY POWELL: That is certainly the -- one of the things we're looking at. Really what we're looking at tomorrow is the beginning of joint patrols, and to see if those joint patrols result in people coming forward with information or the turning over of arms.
If that doesn't work, and we have to give it a little bit of time to work, if that does work, then we'll review the bidding again with our commanders, and I'm sure the President will consult with the National Security Council as we did on Saturday when we made a judgment to move, when the President made a judgment to move in this direction.
MR. MOHAMMED: By a little bit of time, you're thinking days, I presume?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah. I would not wish to give you a time because as I say this really is up to the commanders on the scene and Ambassador Bremer -- General Abizaid, General Sanchez and Ambassador Bremer will certainly provide their recommendations to the National Security Council, and the President will make a decision at an appropriate time, but I wouldn't want to put a timeline on it yet.
MR. MOHAMMED: On the Middle East, Saeb Erikat says that the Bush Administration has essentially usurped his role as the chief Palestinian negotiator by giving away concessions to the Israelis on settlements and on right of return that he feels should have been his to negotiate at the negotiating table. How do you answer that?
SECRETARY POWELL: They are his to negotiate at the negotiating table. The President did not give that away. The President made it clear in his statement and in his press conference that he was not prejudging any final status issue. And he constantly referred to the roadmap and that everything we are doing is consistent with the roadmap. So did Prime Minister Sharon. So at the end of the day, it is between the Palestinians and the Israelis to determine what they're going to do about armistice lines, right of return, even right of return. It's between the two of them to decide that.
What the President said, however, that's gotten all the attention and it draws questions such as this one and Mr. Erikat's response -- is the President took note of certain realities on the ground that everybody realized are realities. And he said, you know, recognize these realities -- but ultimately these realities, and what one does with these realities, will have to be negotiated between the two sides to get to final status issues.
And the President keeps reminding everyone, as I try to, that something fundamentally new has been put on the table. The Israelis are going to leave all of the settlements in Gaza and not destroy them on the way out. They will be there to be converted to ultimate use of the Palestinian people in Gaza. And we should be focusing on how the Palestinian Authority can get ready to assume political control over Gaza and put in place a security system that will keep it firmly under Palestinian control.
And with the evacuation of four settlements in the West Bank, something that people have wanted for a long time, that is the beginning of a process to see what else might be evacuated, or ultimately, how a Palestinian state can be created that would be coherent, contiguous and viable.
MR. HUDSON: Another reality on the ground is that Israel keeps assassinating Hamas leaders. Do you think they should stop doing that? Do you think that it's counterproductive?
SECRETARY POWELL: We have always said that every nation, especially Israel that has been a target of such terrorist attacks over the years had the right of self-defense, and they have the right of self-defense. And a prime minister or president has to determine how to exercise that.
We have also cautioned the Israelis in every one of these instances that, "Consider the consequences of your actions. Does it improve the situation, or doesn't it improve the situation?" And that is a constant reminder we provide to the Israelis.
MR. MOHAMMED: On North Korea, do you believe the North Koreans are stalling, as it were, in the hopes in their negotiations -- in the hopes that they'll deal with a different Administration next year?
SECRETARY POWELL: No. I wouldn't characterize it that way. I think based on Kim Jong-il's visit with his Chinese counterparts recently in Beijing, we're still analyzing the results of that meeting, and there may be an opportunity for progress or more meetings in the near future. I certainly have gotten no impression from any of the six-party members, and especially from the Chinese, who have been the lead for us on this issue, no impression from them that the whole thing has been pushed off until after the election.
I think the North Koreans have got to come to the realization that you're not going to go backwards on this one. I think the United States understands clearly, and in our broadening out beyond my Administration, our Administration, President Bush and his team, this Administration, broadened it out to say the American people understand this can no longer be just a negotiation between the United States and North Korea where we reward them or compensate them for what? For bad behavior. For broken faith.
And so they can take their time and wait as long as they wish to, but I think they will ultimately discover that this six-party framework is going to stay intact, I believe, and it serves their interests. It is in their interest, if they are so worried about the United States that it is in their interest to get their neighbors involved in the security assurances that we have offered to them. It's a demonstration of our lack of a hostile intent toward them, or the fact that we have no desire to invade them, no interest in invading them and no reason to invade them.
We will find a, hopefully, a diplomatic solution to this problem. The pieces are on the table and now we need the North Koreans to make the choice that they must have complete, verifiable, irreversible dismantlement of their nuclear weapons programs. That's not an unreasonable demand. It's what they said they were going to be doing back in 1994 when we had the Agreed Framework arrangement, and which they immediately started violating.
MR. MOHAMMED: When you talk about the possibility of talks in the near future, I presume you're talking about the working group talks?
SECRETARY POWELL: Either working group or plenary. We're still working on this. But I would expect working group kind of before the major meetings again. But I don't have a date on it yet.
MR. HUDSON: On Iran, how hard is the United States going to push for a non-compliance resolution through the IAEA Board meeting in June?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I wouldn't be able to tell you that right now. I will tell you, though, that we're going to push very hard between now and then to make sure that the international community, the IAEA, the European Foreign Ministers have been working on this in concert with us, press Iran to the fullest, the Russians press Iran to the fullest to meet their commitments, to do everything they said they were going to do to the IAEA and to the European Foreign Ministers: The French, Germany and the United Kingdom.
We believe they still have not been totally forthcoming. Things constantly are being found and discovered. And we need full accountability. The international community requires this in order to have any faith in Iran's assurances. And as we get closer to the next IAEA meeting we'll have to make a judgment as to how forthcoming they have been, how serious they have been, and have they given us something that we really can take to the bank, if you want to put it that way.
Then we'll make a judgment as to what should come out of the IAEA meeting.
MR. HUDSON: As part of the pressure on Iran, do you want the summits that are coming up with the G8, (inaudible) you to deal with the Iran nuclear issue?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I'm sure that in the meetings of those kinds, I mean, it's an issue that will come up. It's a major problem before the international community.
We dealt with Iraq, no weapons of mass destruction there anymore and no programs of weapons of mass destruction. We haven't found any of the stockpiles, but we may have turned them up. But what we certainly know for sure is we don't have to worry about any future leader of Iraq developing weapons of mass destruction, having them, possessing them, or having the intent to acquire them.
We dealt with them. Libya, in the neighborhood, has decided that it was gaining no benefit from having weapons of mass destruction and voluntarily gave them up. And Libya has immediately seen the benefits in giving up these weapons that provided them no benefit before, and trying to rejoin the international community.
Now I would hope that the Iranians would see the same benefits for them if they would abandon these kinds of programs. And I would hope others in the neighborhood, such as the Syrians, who have various programs dealing with weapons of mass destruction, would come to the same conclusion.
MR. MOHAMMED: Well, now, on Libya, do you believe the Libyans still have residual contacts with terrorist groups, and do you believe that they've been responsible for any terrorist attacks on American citizens in recent years?
SECRETARY POWELL: Not that I'm aware of, but they have made a serious effort to rejoin the international community. They are still on our list of states that sponsor terrorism, and we will examine their record fully in the months ahead before we remove them from that list. But we want them to be serious. We hope they have totally abandoned, and frankly, we're impressed with what they have done in recent years: resolved the Pan Am 103 case, turned in all their weapons of mass destruction, have been very open in the process of turning in their weapons of mass destruction.
We've laid out a clear roadmap for them of what we expect them to do in order to move toward full normalization of relations between the United States and Libya.
MR. MOHAMMED: Could you see that this year?
SECRETARY POWELL: I wouldn't put a timeline on it at this point. We're moving along very well. We're moving along in accordance with the plan that they laid out with the Libyans some months ago. The Libyans have been forthcoming. We have been forthcoming. It's important to follow that roadmap and not put an artificial timelines on it.
I want it to go as fast as we can make it go. I think it's in our interest to receive Libya back into the international community. Let's not forget, though, the basic nature of their regime. It is not exactly a representative democracy. It is still what it is. That hasn't changed. So I think it's the time to be forthcoming, but at the same time to be cautious.
MR. HUDSON: Still in Africa on Sudan, what do you think the chances are of getting a final peace deal with the rebels and the government -- the rebels in the south and the government?
SECRETARY POWELL: It's hard to put a percentage of your handicap in order to get a timeline. I spoke to the Sudanese Foreign Minister over the weekend, and I'm in regular touch with Vice President Taha who participates in negotiations on part of the Government of Khartoum, and I'm in regular contact with Dr. John Garang of the SPLM.
They have narrowed it down to just one or two issues. They are both now heading back to Lake Naivasha in Kenya, where the discussions are being held and perhaps we will see some progress in the days ahead. But this has been a long, difficult negotiation.
Most of the issues have been resolved. The ones remaining, of course, are the difficult ones. And I'm still hoping for progress.
MR. MOHAMMED: We have to wrap up. If we could ask one on a topical subject, is the United States Government giving any consideration to offering diplomatic recognition to the northern, to the Turkish Cypriot part of Cyprus? And if not that, are you giving consideration to finding ways to increase trade with them (inaudible)?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, first of all, let me say how disappointed I am that the Greek Cypriots did not vote favorably for this plan. It was a good plan. It was a historic moment, and I think this historic moment will be lost and it'll be seen as a lost opportunity in the future.
The Turkish Government displayed great courage, political courage. The Turkish Cypriots did, as well, on voting for it. And so I think there should be some benefits to the Turkish Cypriots for having voted "yes" for this plan.
We are watching what our European Union colleagues are doing. They were meeting on it. They're meeting on it today. And we'll see what they do. And we will examine what we might be able to do.
I have no announcements to make right now and we haven't gotten to the point of recognition yet. We're just looking at it right now, studying the consequences of the vote, and initially we'll watch to see what the European Union does.
MR. HUDSON: You have always said that you serve at the pleasure of the President. If the President asks you to serve a second term, would you do so?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, it's a question I get with some regularity, and I serve at the pleasure of the President, and we'll just leave it at that.
MR. MOHAMMED: Thanks very much for your time.
MR. HUDSON: Thank you.
(end transcript)
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