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Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

Washington File

23 April 2003

Powell: War Showed U.S. Using Power in Pursuit of Principle

(Interview with Charlie Rose on PBS April 22) (6500)
Secretary of State Colin Powell said in a PBS television interview on
April 22 that the message of the Iraq war is that "the United States
has power to use to pursue a principle."
Powell was interviewed by Charlie Rose of PBS.
Powell said American power "will also be used with consideration for
the views of others."
Tracing the progress of diplomacy in the lead-up to the conflict in
Iraq, Powell called U.N. Security Council Resolution 1441, which
passed unanimously, "a great diplomatic achievement," and said it gave
the U.S. "the authority to do what we did."
Powell said that the president is "fully aware of the power that the
United States has, and how to use that power correctly, properly, and
based on principle and based on the values upon which this nation has
been founded." He added that he -- and the Department of State --
fully support the president.
Calling North Korea "a multilateral problem," Powell said there is a
need for a comprehensive solution on North Korea, and he noted that
the Chinese, the Russians, the Japanese and the South Koreans agree.
"The president believes that problem can be solved diplomatically
because North Korea is in such difficult economic straits," he said.
On Syria, Powell said that although Syria has been providing some help
in the global war against terrorism, "they are also a state sponsor of
terrorism." Powell said the United States has significant differences
with Syria, and President Bush has asked him to go to Syria in the
very near future to discuss these differences.
Responding to a question about Iran, Powell said the United States
remains concerned about Iran because of its support of terrorism and
its development of weapons of mass destruction.
He noted that Iranians, especially young Iranians, want to be part of
the world. "We believe there is a great deal of churning going on
within Iran right now. They have a very young population that can look
out beyond the borders of Iran and realize there is another world out
there," Powell said.
"They want to be part of that world," he said. "They want to be part
of the community. And they're applying pressure to both their
political leadership and their religious leadership, saying, 'Look,
we're a great country, 5,000 years of history. We are entrepreneurs.
We are traders. We are gifted, learned people. And what is this doing
for us right now?'"
On the question of Middle East peace moves, Powell said President Bush
has made it absolutely clear that he knows that the United States must
turn its attention to the Middle East, and that new leadership is
needed within the Palestinian Authority. Powell expressed his hope
that Palestinian Prime Minister Abu Mazen would be able to form a
cabinet and take up his leadership role.
In answer to a question from the interviewer, Powell described what he
hoped would be his accomplishments as secretary of State. "The Middle
East, I would hope to be able to help the president finally find a way
forward that will result in the creation of a Palestinian state,"
Powell said.
Powell said he would also like to see more progress on HIV/AIDS and on
putting new democracies on firmer foundations, ending famine, and
encouraging free trade.
Following is the transcript of Secretary of State Powell's April 22
interview with PBS' Charlie Rose.
(begin transcript)
Interview with Charlie Rose of PBS
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Washington, DC
April 22, 2003
MR. ROSE: Mr. Secretary, thank you for letting us join you here at the
State Department.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, Charlie. A pleasure to see you.
MR. ROSE: Tell me what the message is of the Iraqi war for the rest of
the world and for the United States.
SECRETARY POWELL: I think the message for the Iraqi war is the United
States has power to use to pursue a principle. In this case, the
principle was a state that was developing weapons of mass destruction
that was terrorizing its own people that was invading its neighbors,
that was using these weapons of mass destruction and stood in
violation of 12 years' worth of UN resolutions. That regime was
brought to justice and was removed. That was the use of American
power.
But American power will also be used with consideration for the views
of others. We took it to the United Nations. We spent a couple of
months in the United Nations trying to rally the international
community to this problem. And we got a resolution, 1441 that was
passed unanimously. It was that resolution that gave us the authority
to do what we did.
The message should not be that because we have such military power,
it's going to be used anywhere else in the world we choose to use it.
The message should be we have that military power but we also have
economic power, we have political power, we have diplomatic power, we
have the power of example. We are using all of these elements of
national power not to find nations to invade, but to find nations who
need our help.
At the same time that people have been focusing on Iraqi freedom, and
it's been a wonderful experience in the last few day to see people
respond to our young American GIs who are there now. At the same time
that's been going on we've been spending time working on other
elements of the President's agenda -- HIV/AIDS, perhaps the greatest
weapon of mass destruction on the face of the earth, killing millions
of people. This President has made an enormous contribution to that
fight, the fight against HIV/AIDS, with his $15 billion global
initiative and with us helping Kofi Annan stand up the Global Trust
Fund for HIV/AIDS.
This President is committed to opening up trade throughout the world
so that these newly democratic nations can become part of a 21st
century globalizing world. This President is committed to relieving
famine. He is committed to working with alliances. People think that
we don't appreciate the great alliances of which we are a part, such
as NATO or the United Nations, but we do. That's why we paid our
arrears to the United Nations, that's why we're rejoining UNESCO, and
that's why even when there are disagreements within these alliances we
understand their value and we're going to move forward.
So this is a President who is fully aware, and this is the State
Department supporting that President, and the Secretary of State, I
might add, supporting that President, who is fully aware of the power
that the United States has and how to use that power correctly,
properly, and based on principle and based on the values upon which
this nation has been founded.
MR. ROSE: Have you found in your conversations with heads of state and
foreign ministers, since the military victory, that there is a changed
attitude at all about the United States?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think there is an attitude of relief that the
military part of this campaign is over with. People recognize that the
next phase will be difficult.
MR. ROSE: And their worst expectations did not happen?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes. Everybody was saying we were trapped, we were
stuck, it was quagmire. All kinds of things were being said about this
operation.
MR. ROSE: Fear of chemical war?
SECRETARY POWELL: All sorts of predictions that didn't come about.
Also, predictions about uprisings all over the world. There were
certainly demonstrations around the world, but not the kinds of
uprisings that people had predicted. So a lot of these predictions
simply did not come to pass.
Those nations who were part of this coalition of the willing, people
tend to look down on this coalition, but, I mean, Spain, Australia,
Italy, Poland, The Czech [Republic] -- so many nations came together
on this. I think that they are greatly relieved that they were on the
right side of history with respect to this particular crisis. And we
are seeing that reflected now in their feelings about themselves and
in their relationship with us.
MR. ROSE: No one more than Tony Blair. What does this country owe him
and the British?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think we owe our British friends a great deal and
we owe the Prime Minister a great deal. He stuck with the United
States. It's been the pattern with Great Britain for so many, many
years, through so many crises. Not just because we're two great
English-speaking nations, but because we share common values and a
common perspective of how we look at the world. And Prime Minister
Blair put it all on the line.
President Bush put it pretty much on the line, but I would say,
respectfully of course, not as much as Prime Minister Blair did. He
had to take it to his cabinet, which is a different kind of cabinet
than the American cabinet. And he had to take it to his parliament.
And he took it to his parliament even though we were unable to get
that second UN resolution that he wanted. We didn't get it, but
because of the strength of the first UN resolution and our effort to
get the second UN resolution, he was able to take it to his parliament
and win that parliamentary vote. And Tony Blair put his political life
on the line for a matter of principle, and he won.
MR. ROSE: A couple of things about history. You believe 1441 was a
significant achievement, perhaps more than we even recognize today.
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
MR. ROSE: Elaborate on that. And also, that you might very well have
gotten, do you still believe, a second resolution except for the
threat of a veto by the French?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah, 1441, if I may humbly say so and modestly say
so, was a great diplomatic achievement for all the nations who joined
together, the 15 nations that joined together and passed it
unanimously. And it was a great win for this administration, for
President Bush. There were a lot of people who were speculating, well,
don't even go to the UN. Just go do it, just go to war by yourself.
Well, it wouldn't have been that easy. We needed access. We needed the
help of others in order to conduct any kind of campaign. We also
needed time to put in place a force for a campaign. I know a little
bit about this having done it a few times previously in my lifetime.
And 1441 was a case where the President recognized that it was UN
resolutions that were being violated, not just United States
sensibilities. And so he took it to the United Nations and said: "You
have a problem. This regime, the Iraqi regime under Saddam Hussein,
for the last 12 years has ignored this body. What are you going to do
about it?" That's what he said on the 12th of September to the General
Assembly.
Over the next seven weeks we negotiated 1441. And in early November,
the 8th of
November, it passed by a unanimous vote. And it said Saddam Hussein is
guilty, he's been doing these things, he's still guilty; he can get
out of guilt or we can solve this problem if he will turn it all over,
admit what he's been doing, and let's have it verified by the
inspectors; and if he does not take this last opportunity, then
serious consequences could follow.
So now --
MR. ROSE: Okay, go ahead.
SECRETARY POWELL: There was a big fight after that as we watched the
inspectors go to work. There were some of us who felt strongly -- the
United States, Great Britain, Spain and others, Bulgaria -- that what
we were seeing on the part of Saddam Hussein was not the kind of
compliance demanded by 1441. It was grudging. It was a way of
stretching it out. There were others -- France and Germany and others
-- who felt, well, it may not be total compliance, but let's just keep
inspecting and send more inspectors.
Well, we've seen this movie before. We've seen this game played
before. And so we called the bluff and we put down the second
resolution. Not because the United States thought we needed one, but
Britain and a number of our other friends said they needed one. In
fact, it would have served our domestic political purposes, as well.
So we put down the second resolution.
Let there be no mistake about that second resolution. It also was
going to lead to military conflict. It wasn't leading to more
inspections. It was a resolution that gave a timeline for the end of
this and go to military operations. But we weren't able to get the
votes needed for that. And I believe it was because it was in the face
of a certain veto from France and a probable veto from Russia. That
made it hard for some of the elected members to come along. And rather
than force some of these countries that were having great political
difficulties with this issue to have to show their hand, we elected to
pull down the resolution.
MR. ROSE: And France, in fact, said there's nothing you could write
that we wouldn't veto?
SECRETARY POWELL: France said there's nothing you can write that we
wouldn't veto.
MR. ROSE: I'm trying to come to some understanding in looking at 1441,
looking at what you said about the message from the war. Who is our
enemy? Who is it? Is it countries that support terrorism and want
weapons of mass destruction? Is it anybody that supports terrorism?
Where are the enemies of the United States today? Is it Syria? Is it
Iran? Is it North Korea? Who is it?
SECRETARY POWELL: You know, in the crisis that we're going through
now, we sometimes forget that we lost some of our best enemies. It's a
joke I used to tell after the Cold War was over, and I used to kid
with people. When out on the speaking circuit, I used this joke all
the time. "What am I going to do? We lost our best enemy when the
Soviet Union went away."
So we are fortunate in the 21st century that the threat of
thermonuclear war of the kind that used to be presented by the Soviet
Empire is no longer there. China no longer presents the kind of threat
or danger that some people might have anticipated. Both of those great
countries -- large, important countries -- are in a very, very
productive relationship with the United States. So the enemies have
changed. All of those nations of the former Soviet Union now come to
visit me as free, independent nations, not part of an empire, and they
want to talk about trade, aid, democracy, education, healthcare.
That's what they want to talk about.
MR. ROSE: And joining NATO.
SECRETARY POWELL: And joining NATO and joining the EU. Why? Because
they want to be part of this great transatlantic community, which is
not just transatlantic; it also extends to Asia as well, and it's
extending south in our own hemisphere to the Americas, to South
America. And we're extending it to the Africa with the Millennium
Challenge Account, which gives more aid to countries in need, and with
HIV/AIDS, which will help African countries who are in such despair.
So we have got so many good things going on, so many nations that are
now on a right path to democracy and economic development, and working
on the right things to take care of their people, well, then who are
the enemies? Terrorism has replaced the ideology of communism as an
enemy. And it's a particularly dangerous enemy because it does not
necessarily come from a state. It comes from individuals. It comes
from groups who have no geographic limit or boundary. You can't find
their capital. You find them in places like Afghanistan where they
stole a state, al-Qaida did, and we had to remove the regime, the
Taliban, and get rid of al-Qaida. We're still chasing remnants of
al-Qaida.
MR. ROSE: Is it just the remnants?
SECRETARY POWELL: It's mostly the remnants, in my judgment. Al-Qaida
is weakened, but it's still dangerous and we don't want to see it gain
the strength that it had a couple of years ago.
What's interesting here is that the whole international community has
come together to recognize this danger and we're cooperating on going
after their finances, on intelligence exchanges, on police activity,
all sorts of things.
There are still states, however, in the world who seek to develop
weapons of mass destruction, who continue to support terrorist
activities that threaten other states in the region. And we have to
look at these states one at a time, individually, and deal with them
one at a time, individually. They're not part of a union any longer.
They're not part of the empire. North Korea develops weapons of mass
destruction. The President believes that that problem can be solved
diplomatically because North Korea is in such difficult economic
straits.
MR. ROSE: As long as it's multilateral?
SECRETARY POWELL: As long as it's multilateral. Why? Because it is a
multilateral problem. Their neighbors should be as involved in the
solution of this problem as the United States. It's not a problem
between the United States and North Korea. The nuclear weapons they
may be developing are a threat to their neighbors, not necessarily,
initially, to the United States until they develop long-range
missiles.
MR. ROSE: Are you disappointed that South Korea, Japan and other
countries, except for China, haven't done more? Because they all seem
to want the same thing: a nuclear-free Korea.
SECRETARY POWELL: South Korea had an agreement with North Korea for a
nuclear-free peninsula. The Chinese have it is a stated policy. The
Chinese policy is a denuclearized Korean Peninsula. Japan wants the
same thing. We've worked with all of them.
Now, in the first blush after we discovered what North Korea was doing
with a new development program for nuclear weapons, everybody said,
"Oh, my heavens. United States, you've got to go talk to North Korea.
You have to have a bilateral discussion with North Korea of the kind
that the previous administration did which resulted in the Agreed
Framework."
And we thought about it and we said no, this is not just our problem.
Everybody is always accusing us of being unilateral, and now we want
to be multilateral. Why? Because this is a problem for China, their
policy of a denuclearized peninsula, South Korea, China, Japan and
also Russia, and also Australia and all of the other nations in the
region. So we said let's multilateralize it and we stuck with that,
even though we were being criticized by everybody.
MR. ROSE: Everybody was saying --
SECRETARY POWELL: Everybody was saying --
MR. ROSE: -- the crisis is too great not to simply go in there and say
we'll get in a room with the North Koreans and settle this.
SECRETARY POWELL: We stuck with it. We stuck with our position because
we strongly believe we need a comprehensive solution. And guess what?
Our Chinese friends agreed with us. Our Japanese, South Korean friends
agreed. The Russians have been supportive. The Australians and others
have been supportive.
Now, the North Koreans would not come to a meeting that was too large.
They didn't want to be outnumbered in the room, so we're starting it
with three. But it's multilateral. And the Chinese are there not as
moderators, not as the convener of the meeting, but as a full
participant in the meeting. So it's multilateral.
The United States is there, having closely consulted with our Japanese
and South Korean friends before going in the room, and the first
persons we'll consult with when this initial meeting is over will be
the Japanese and the South Koreans. So they're not in the room for
this initial set of meetings, but we want them to be included later.
But they are in the room in terms of us representing their positions
and know what their thinking is.
MR. ROSE: Some people say there are two issues here. Number one, if
you look at the North Koreans, they are a testament to the fact that
as long as you have a nuclear weapon, the United States is not -- is
going to negotiate with you; it is not going to come in and attack
you. That's the first lesson.
SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah, well, I think it's a wrong lesson if they have
learned this lesson or are internalizing it. And the reason it's the
wrong lesson is that the United States has such economic, political,
diplomatic and military power that we are not going to be intimidated
by a small number of nuclear weapons held by a particular regime. The
North Koreans --
MR. ROSE: You would be intimidated that they might use them against
the South
Koreans, wouldn't you?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, that -- I don't know what they might or might
not do, but the one thing they won't do is intimidate us. And we're
going to make that very clear in these discussions. And it should dawn
on them that they can have plutonium programs and they can have
enriched uranium programs, and not one of those programs feeds one
North Korean child. And so there is no future in sitting there on a
stockpile of nuclear weapons that we can contain or we can deter or we
can do whatever might be required. But we don't need to threaten them.
We believe, the President believes strongly, there is a diplomatic way
to resolve this.
MR. ROSE: And we could give them security guarantees?
SECRETARY POWELL: There is a diplomatic way to resolve this crisis.
And in this first set of meetings, nothing is being put on the table.
The relations have been strained, and in this first set of meetings
with the Chinese and the North Koreans and the United States in a room
together around a table, three participants at this meeting, we'll
begin a set of discussions. They will hear what we think about the
situation. They will hear our strong views. We expect the North
Koreans to present their views strongly and we certainly expect the
Chinese to present their views strongly.
MR. ROSE: Are you --
SECRETARY POWELL: And we'll regroup and we will see what the next step
is.
MR. ROSE: Are you convinced they're more interested in food for their
people than they are having nuclear weapons?
SECRETARY POWELL: No, I think they are more interested in the
preservation of the regime and their security, the security of the
regime.
MR. ROSE: Was it troubling that we had this memo come out saying that
maybe regime change in North Korea ought to be on the agenda?
SECRETARY POWELL: No, because it was never the President's agenda. The
President has made clear what his agenda is -- he has said it
repeatedly -- and that is to find a diplomatic, peaceful, political
solution.
MR. ROSE: No one ever said diplomacy was easy, especially you, I
suspect. Take Syria, for example. You just said that the war against
terrorism is our enemy, that terrorists are our enemy. And you said
Syria is on the list of countries that support terrorism. There are
also, according to many, a country that's helping in the battle
against terrorism.
SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah, diplomacy is sometimes very tricky.
MR. ROSE: Ambiguous?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah. They have been providing some help in the
global war against terrorism, recently since 9/11. But they are also a
state sponsor of terrorism. They would not accept that
characterization, but we've used it and used it repeatedly. And we
also have concerns about what they may be doing with weapons of mass
destruction developments. We've told them that.
And we have been particularly concerned in recent weeks, for obvious
reasons, over any transit of Iraqi leaders into Syria or Fedayeen from
Syria into Iraq, or any movement across the border during the period
of Operation Iraqi Freedom. And we made that clear to them. As the
President noted recently, we've seen some movement on the part of the
Syrians to respond to these concerns.
MR. ROSE: Do you believe --
SECRETARY POWELL: The President also, therefore, asked me to go to
Syria in the very near future, giving them a little more time to see
how things develop, and to discuss these issues with them. We have
diplomatic relations with Syria. Our Ambassador regularly goes in,
Ambassador Kattouf, and presents our concerns to them. And this will
be my third trip to Syria.
MR. ROSE: Have they been more responsive since the end of the military
conflict in Iraq?
SECRETARY POWELL: As the President noted the other day, yes. We have
seen some response -- not a full response, and we still have
significant differences with Syria, but we will be discussing these
differences. And Syria also has now seen changed circumstances in its
neighborhood. There is no longer Saddam Hussein as a neighbor of Syria
and we hope that they have taken a look at that and drawn some
conclusions from the reality of the changed circumstances, and maybe
it will cause them to begin rethinking some of their policies.
MR. ROSE: Speaking of Saddam Hussein, there's a report today that
somebody said somewhere in the Middle East or in the Gulf region,
reports that he's on the run and that they may be close to finding
him. Can you help me understand what that means?
SECRETARY POWELL: No, Charlie, I can't. There is a report an hour that
comes out as to whether he is here or there.
MR. ROSE: Dead or alive or on the run in Syria, in Russia?
SECRETARY POWELL: Dead or alive, kind of the Scarlet Pimpernel, he's
here, he's almost everywhere. The fact of the matter is we do not know
whether he is dead or alive. What we do know is that he is gone. He is
no longer the dictator of Baghdad. He is no longer terrorizing his
population. He is no longer causing women to be raped. He is no longer
oppressing the Shias in the south. He is gone and he's going to stay
gone. He's not regrouping. He's not coming back. If he's alive, he's
on the run. If he's dead, he's gone to meet his maker.
MR. ROSE: And it's 50/50 in terms of the intelligence you see?
SECRETARY POWELL: I wouldn't even put a percentage on it.
MR. ROSE: Okay. The idea of Iran, before I move on to some broader
themes, you have said, this government has said they're trying to get
weapons of mass destruction, specifically nuclear, with the help of
the Soviets in terms of the technology.
SECRETARY POWELL: We call them Russians now, Charlie.
MR. ROSE: Okay, I'm sorry. (Laughter.)
SECRETARY POWELL: Old habits die quite slowly.
MR. ROSE: They do. (Laughter.) I wasn't going to make that mistake.
That's terrible. Mr. Putin has given them some technology. Fair to
say?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah.
MR. ROSE: You say and America says that they are supporting terrorism,
Hezbollah and others. So where does that put them? Do they make the
same -- are they doing the same things that the Iraqis were doing?
SECRETARY POWELL: The President characterized them in his famous
speech where he said they were part of an "axis of evil" and that was
because of their support of terrorism and their development of weapons
of mass destruction. And we will remain concerned about that. We
believe that the Russians have provided them assistance, which will
ultimately flow into their nuclear weapons development program, and
we've discussed this rather candidly with the Russians over the entire
period of this administration and will continue to do so.
We believe there is a great deal of churning going on within Iran
right now. They have a very young population that can look out beyond
the borders of Iran and realize there is another world out there.
MR. ROSE: They want to be part of that community?
SECRETARY POWELL: They want to be part of that world. They want to be
part of that community. And they're applying pressure to both their
political leadership and their religious leadership, saying, "Look,
we're a great country, 5,000 years of history. We are entrepreneurs.
We are traders. We are gifted, learned people. And what is this doing
for us right now?" So there is turmoil within the Iranian population.
And we're watching that, we're measuring it, we're in touch with the
Iranians through various channels. We have friends who visit there,
foreign secretaries and ministers who go there and report to me
regularly. And we have ways of communicating with the Iranians.
MR. ROSE: And they're experimenting with democracy?
SECRETARY POWELL: And they're experimenting with some various forms of
democracy and they are trying to figure it out.
MR. ROSE: So they've got nothing to fear from the United States?
SECRETARY POWELL: I would say that we will -- well, I wouldn't quite
go that far. I would say that we will protect our interests if it has
to do with the war against terrorism to do --
MR. ROSE: So what does that mean, "We'll protect our interests?" I
mean they're supporting Hezbollah, who they say are nationalistic.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we know that they -- some elements of
Hezbollah may make that claim, but other elements, the more
significant and dangerous elements of Hezbollah are terrorists, and we
know that. And so as long as they continue to support terrorists who
are making it difficult to achieve the kind of progress we'd like to
see in the Middle East to solve the most nagging problem in the Middle
East, then we have to take that into account in our relationship with
Iran and try to convince them in a way that we were unable to convince
Iraq that it is in their interest now to review the bidding, to take
another look, to see what's happened over the last month, over the
last six months, and reflect on the direction in which they are moving
the policies that they have been following.
MR. ROSE: Back to my question about how the world is responding. I've
got to change tape now. Is that all right, okay with you?
SECRETARY POWELL: Okay.
(Brief recess.)
MR. ROSE: My impression is that with respect to the United States and
its foreign policy, everything changed after 9/11.
SECRETARY POWELL: I think it's fair to say that after 9/11 we were
faced with a new danger. This new enemy appeared we were not
expecting. We knew there was always a danger, but we never expected to
be attacked in our own cities in that manner. And so everything we
have done since 9/11 had to be against the backdrop of 9/11.
MR. ROSE: All right. At that time, though, there was great goodwill
for the United States. The Iraqi war put some problems in certain
relations. You've described the French as a relationship like a
marriage of 225 years, and it's now seeking marriage counseling.
Will there be any consequences for the French because they were a
difficult force for you diplomatically? I mean their Foreign Minister
was in Africa trying to get people to vote against the second
resolution. Even now, with respect to the United Nations, they're
saying the United Nations has to play a leading role, a central role,
not the words you use, vital role.
SECRETARY POWELL: It was a very difficult period as we went through
that second resolution vote. And we didn't believe that France was
playing a helpful role. There's no secret about that. And while my
colleague Dominique DeVillepin was in Africa visiting three African
countries to get their votes, I was on the phone before he landed at
each stop.
MR. ROSE: Saying what? Close the airport?
SECRETARY POWELL: Making sure that he did not get three African votes.
And we won't, I won't go any further other than to say it was a
fascinating diplomatic experience. But now it's over and we have to
take a look at the relationship. We have to look at all aspects of our
relationship with France in light of this --
MR. ROSE: Okay, but I've heard there will be consequences because they
were tough for you. I mean everywhere you would turn after the vote on
(inaudible) they weren't on your side and with you; they were against
you, against the United States. Are there consequences for standing up
to the United States like that?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
MR. ROSE: Let me move on. The Middle East roadmap. Are you, is the
President prepared to make that an urgent item to exert pressure on
both sides?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes. The President has made it absolutely clear that
he knows. He knew it all along, but with Iraq behind us, he knows with
more certainty than he did before that this is where we have to turn
our attention to. He also said that we needed new leadership within
the Palestinian Authority. That was one of the elements of his speech
of last June 24th.
Tomorrow we will find out whether or not Abu Mazen, Mr. Abu Mazen
succeeds in forming a cabinet that will pass a vote of confidence by
the Palestinian Legislation Council --
MR. ROSE: Or whether Yasser Arafat --
SECRETARY POWELL: -- or whether Yasser Arafat succeeds in derailing
his efforts.
MR. ROSE: And what does that say to you about Yasser Arafat?
SECRETARY POWELL: He's still there and he is still not showing the
kind of leadership that we need in a Palestinian leader. I think if
Yasser Arafat does not allow Mr. Abu Mazen to form the cabinet that
Mr. Abu Mazen says he needs to be the prime minister of the
Palestinian Authority, an opportunity of enormous importance will be
lost and Arafat will have done it again. And the ones who will suffer
the most: the Palestinian people as well as the innocent lives that
might be lost as this crisis continues.
MR. ROSE: And what --
SECRETARY POWELL: So I hope that sometime in the next 24 hours a
resolution of this issue can be found that would allow Abu Mazen to go
to the PLC with the blessings of Mr. Arafat to get the cabinet that
Mr. Abu Mazen believes he needs in order to be an effective leader of
the Palestinian people as their prime minister.
There's no point in him being the prime minister and trying to lead
the Palestinian people out of this dead-end position they are in if he
doesn't have authority and if he isn't able to obtain the cabinet that
he needs to do the job it will be a opportunity of enormous importance
and significance that will have been lost yet again.
MR. ROSE: And this message is being sent to him loudly and clearly?
SECRETARY POWELL: It's being sent loudly and clearly every way we know
how.
MR. ROSE: Finally, you. What do you hope to accomplish? George
Marshall did this. Dean Acheson did this. Different people have done
different things. What do you want to accomplish as Secretary of
State? Is it the Middle East that will give you an opportunity to do
more than anything?
SECRETARY POWELL: The Middle East, I would hope to be able to help the
President finally find a way forward that will result in the creation
of a Palestinian state. That would be a great success for this
President and for this administration. And if I play a part in that
success, I would be honored.
I would like to see progress on HIV/AIDS. I would like to see more
done with putting in, on a firmer foundation, the democracies that
have sprouted all over the world over the last 10 years, but they are
fragile. I hope we can do more to grounding these democracies in the
Western Hemisphere, in Eastern Europe, in Africa and other places
around the world.
I would hope to be able to do something about famine. I would hope to
be able to do something working with my colleague Bob Zoellick on free
trade. I'm not one who sits around saying, "What is the great
accomplishment you have to get under your belt to be a success." I
measure my performance. I measure my daily performance as well as my
ultimate performance when the report card is written as to whether or
not I've helped my president, President Bush achieve the goals that he
came in for and whether I have helped him achieve the goals that the
American people have for him. And that's the way I measure myself. And
that's the only measure I use. As long as he is able to achieve those
goals, then any goals I have will be achieved.
MR. ROSE: And if he's reelected, you'll be with him for a second term
as Secretary of State?
SECRETARY POWELL: I serve at the pleasure of the President and that's
as far as I will ever comment on that issue.
MR. ROSE: But think about the job you just laid out: HIV. We lose more
people to HIV than we're losing in any conflict in the world today.
SECRETARY POWELL: Absolutely.
MR. ROSE: Famine. The passion that you have, how can you --
SECRETARY POWELL: And you put the two together. You put HIV/AIDS and
famine together with poverty and it all -- they all reenergize each
other. If people are sick, they can't work. If they can't work, they
can't bring in food. If they can't bring in food, their children are
hungry, they are susceptible to disease. It's a horrible cycle that
kills families, kills societies, kills nations. It's the greatest
weapons of mass destruction going -- a combination of HIV/AIDS, other
infectious diseases, famine, poverty. That is a major task and if
President Bush and members of this administration can do something
about that, that will be a major accomplishment of this
administration.
MR. ROSE: And think about you. And you have remembered your father to
me on this program before. I mean here is an opportunity for you as
the chief representative of the United States to the world to do these
things.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I am doing it, Charlie. And I serve at the
pleasure of the President.
MR. ROSE: Thank you.
SECRETARY POWELL: Now Charlie, you know it would be presumptuous of me
to say anything else.
MR. ROSE: Thank you very much.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, Charlie.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)



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