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Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

23 March 2003

Time Frame Unknown But Regime's End Clear, Rumsfeld Says

(Interview on CBS's Face the Nation) (3810)
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, speaking March 23 on the news
program Face the Nation, said that "no one can predict when the regime
of Saddam Hussein will be eliminated, "but it will end, and he will be
gone."
Any war is tough and unpredictable, Rumsfeld said, and he reminded
viewers that the military campaign had barely been under way for more
than 72 hours. Nevertheless, he pointed out, the country is largely
controlled by coalition aircraft, demining is proceeding to allow
humanitarian aid in by sea, and land forces are moving toward Baghdad.
Rumsfeld disputed descriptions of the coalition air campaign. "We are
not bombing Baghdad," he said. "That is a precise attack on the regime
of Saddam Hussein -- that's what's being targeted, and that's what's
being hit, and they know it."
Rumsfeld said that discussions are continuing with Republican Guard
leaders in certain places. "Needless to say, our goal is to have this
done with minimum loss of life on the coalition side and on the Iraqi
side."
Following is a transcript of Secretary Rumsfeld's March 23 appearance
on CBS's Face the Nation:
(begin transcript)
NEWS TRANSCRIPT 
Department of Defense 
DoD News Briefing 
Secretary of Defense 
Donald H. Rumsfeld
March 23, 2003
(Interview with Bob Schieffer and David Martin, CBS Face The Nation)
Schieffer: Face the Nation, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld.  
The Coalition Forces are pushing toward Baghdad now, and they are
meeting some resistance. There have been casualties. Is the war on
track? Have any weapons of mass destruction been found? We'll ask the
Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
Good morning again, and the Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld is in
the studio with this us this morning. Thank you, Mr. Secretary, for
coming. Joining in the questioning, our National Security
Correspondent, David Martin.
Mr. Secretary, you've been talking to David and to me just before the
broadcast -- would you clear up the situation about is there an
aircraft -- an American aircraft -- missing, and also are there some
missing soldiers?
Rumsfeld: Well, first, with respect to the aircraft, to the best of my
knowledge, the only aircraft that didn't return is one that was shot
down, and that was a British aircraft. With respect to some soldiers
being missing, I have been told that there is a small number that is
unaccounted for, and whether they are prisoners or whether they are
lost or whether they simply aren't accounted for, we don't know -- I
don't know.
Schieffer: Can you tell us were these Special Operations people or --
Rumsfeld: Since we don't know what their circumstance is, we'll --
they're just soldiers.
Schieffer: But there may be as many as -- what -- a dozen?
Rumsfeld: That would be high.
Schieffer: Give us your assessment, at this point, how is it going?
Rumsfeld: Well, it's going well. It's tough, and wars are
unpredictable, and it's very difficult to know how long it will take,
but if one thinks about it, we've been at it for 72 hours. That's a
very short period of time. The air conflict in the war is going
exceedingly well, and the overwhelming majority of the country is
controlled by coalition aircraft. The situation on the sea is going
very well -- the maritime forces -- and they're in the process of
de-mining so that humanitarian systems can come in. The land forces
are proceeding and moving toward Baghdad. There are still pockets of
resistance in the South, and after they've gone through, there will be
skirmishes and people firing at each other from time to time, but the
pace has been a fast one, and the component commanders have done a
very good job.
Schieffer: Mr. Secretary, I am told that we have just gotten some
pictures that have come in from al Jazeera. I'm told that these are
Americans in Iraq. I don't know what else to say about it. Let's just
watch -- it appears that these are Americans who may be in Iraqi
hands.
Unidentified Soldier: What's your name?
Soldier: Sergeant James Riley.
Schieffer: Well, there you have it. Those, apparently, are American
prisoners. As I said, we just received that. Can you tell us anything
or what do you make of that?
Rumsfeld: I have no idea. There are some journalists that are missing
-- not journalists that were embedded with our forces, but some
freelance people who were moving around on their own -- some have been
killed and some are missing and whether they were journalists or
coalition forces, I simply don't know.
I will say this, the Geneva Convention indicates that it's not
permitted to photograph and embarrass or humiliate prisoners of war,
and if they do happen to be American or coalition ground forces that
have been captured, the Geneva Convention indicates how they should be
treated.
Schieffer: Let me just ask our own people -- do we know where those
men were? Were they in Baghdad or did we have any information? We do
not know where they were -- all we know is that it just came in on al
Jazeera. David.
Martin: Will the fact that the Iraqis have American prisoners in any
way affect the American strategy?
Rumsfeld: Oh, no, it can't. I mean, the plan will go forward. It is
proceeding, and it seems to me that showing a few pictures on the
screen, not knowing who they are, and being communicated by al
Jazeera, which is not a perfect instrument of communication, in my
view, obviously is part of Iraqi propaganda, and responding to Iraqi
propaganda, it seems to me, is not what the United States armed forces
are about.
Martin: Mr. Secretary, before we go any further, I'm told that
yesterday you officially became the oldest Secretary of Defense in
history, and since you were once the youngest Secretary of Defense, I
guess that makes you a "two-fer." So congratulations.
Rumsfeld: (laughing.) Thank you. I'm told that there was a Secretary
of War, however, Henry Stimson, who was 78 years old. So he's got me
by a few years.
Martin: You've turned into a Secretary of War.
Rumsfeld: That's true.
Martin: Can I ask you about Saddam Hussein? Did you have good reason
to believe that he was in that compound on Wednesday night when you
launched that quick strike?
Rumsfeld: What took place there was a -- a -- indication of the superb
linkages between the Central Intelligence Agency, the intelligence
community, and the Department of Defense -- not just at the George
Tenent/Donald Rumsfeld level, but it's knitted together all the way
down to the ground, and there are occasions when an excellent piece of
intelligence if available, and a military leadership like Gen. Franks
and his folks were able to respond flexibly, promptly, and utilize
that intelligence in a way that was effective.
Schieffer: So you had an excellent piece of intelligence that Saddam
Hussein was in that complex?
Rumsfeld: I didn't say that. I said we had an excellence piece of
intelligence that senior regime leadership --
Schieffer: -- senior regime leadership -- including Saddam Hussein?
Rumsfeld: I did not answer that, and I don't plan to. I don't -- it is
so complicated that I wouldn't be able to do it justice --
Schieffer: Well, Mr. Secretary, let me ask you this -- this morning
we're getting reports from the British press. I'll just read you what
they're reporting: "Tony Blair's war cabinet was told by intelligence
chiefs yesterday that Saddam Hussein survived last week's attack in
that bunker but sustained serious injury. They say they have learned
that ministers were told that the Iraqi leader had been so badly
wounded he needed a blood transfusion and that his son Uday, also
thought to have been injured, may even have been killed." Would that
jibe with the reports that you're getting?
Rumsfeld: You know, if you're not there on the ground and able to
question two or three people and then triangulate what people saw --
it's very hard to develop conviction about what actually took place. I
have heard all these reports -- I have had intelligence, we have had
people on the ground who have opined and, I'm sure, very honestly and
accurately reflected what they think they saw. But if there is a car
accident out in front of this building right now, and there's 20
people out there, they'll get 20 different opinions as to what
happened, whose fault it was, and how it all turned out.
Schieffer: Do you have any indication that their command and control
has been disrupted? For one, just sitting back here and watching, as
it would appear, it's very disorganized -- their response to this.
Rumsfeld: We hear those kinds of reports from the field -- that there
seems to be some disarray. If you think about it and put yourself in
their shoes, what's happening is -- we -- I see these images on
television and people commenting that we're bombing Baghdad. We're not
bombing Baghdad. That is a precise attack on the regime of Saddam
Hussein -- that's what's being targeted, and that is what's being hit,
and they know it. And the military targets in there are being hit, the
communications targets are being hit, and they know that's what's
happening. That has to affect their judgment. It has to affect how
they behave, and at some point we're finding people in the field, at
least, starting to surrender. Units are calling up and saying, "We
want to surrender," and we're communicating with them and finding ways
to do that. Still other units are fighting, and there's resistance
going on.
Schieffer: Well, what you're saying is, you know, you had good
information that there were some people in the top command in this
bunker --
Rumsfeld: -- that's true  -- 
Schieffer: -- and from what you know now, you hit that bunker.
Rumsfeld: There was a lot more than a bunker. It was a very large
complex, and there were multiple aim points in that complex.
Schieffer: Who and whether anybody survived is what you don't know,
but you know you hit where you thought they were.
Rumsfeld: You bet your life.
Martin: Let's take it one step further. You said people on the ground
thought they saw -- were there people on the ground who thought they
saw a badly injured Saddam Hussein being taken out of the complex?
Rumsfeld: The task here is to change the regime and find the weapons
of mass destruction and put in place a government for the Iraqi people
that are representative of them. The outcome is clear. There is no
question but that this will be over, and Saddam Hussein and his regime
will be gone. Whether it happens last night, tonight, or the next
night, no one can predict, but it will end, and he will be gone.
Martin: Killing Saddam is a good start changing the regime.
Rumsfeld: That's true, it would be, but there are many other people
involved with his regime that are every bit as repressive and vicious.
Schieffer: But to win this war -- it seems to me, to win this war,
you've got to do two things -- you've got to get Saddam Hussein, and
you've got to find those weapons of mass destruction.
Rumsfeld: To win this war, we have to see that that regime is gone,
doesn't exist, is not in control of that country. If one looks at a
map, it's pretty clear they haven't controlled the Northern part of
their country for years, and they don't today. We have a large number
of -- growing number of troops up there. The west they don't control.
We have troops pretty well moving all around that western portion, and
the forces coming in from the south are moving towards Baghdad. Now,
that means that the air is dominated by coalition aircraft, not by
Iraqi aircraft.
Schieffer: Have they launched any aircraft? Do they have any to
launch?
Rumsfeld: They do have aircraft, and they've dispersed them. They've
parked some near mosques so we can't attack them. They've parked them
near schools and hospitals. It is -- the lack of respect of human life
by the Iraqi regime is just breathtaking.
Schieffer: Can you enlighten us -- we keep hearing these reports that
you were making contact with various people about surrendering --
about what they should do next. Can you give us any information about
that, and some of the people you're talking to -- members of this
elite Republican power?
Rumsfeld: The contacts that are being made are not U.S. government to
Iraqi government at senior political levels. The contacts that are
being made tend to be military contacts, and they are extensive,
there's a lot of communication going on, a number of units have
surrendered, we have a number of prisoners of war that are being
treated under the Geneva Convention and, of course, that's a violation
of the Geneva Convention -- those pictures you showed if, in fact, if
those are our soldiers.
But every hour or two a report comes in suggesting that this outfit
may or may not be willing to surrender, and then some decide they
will. In some cases, they bring the troops with them; in some cases
they're senior people, and the troops just kind of go back into their
villages and communities. There are discussions with Republican Guard
leaders in selected places and, needless to say, our goal is to have
this done with a minimum loss of life on the coalition side and on the
Iraqi side. The Iraqi people are hostages of a very repressive regime,
and to the extent the Iraqi military will act with honor and stop
supporting a regime that's history -- it's done -- and help liberate
the Iraqi people and help find the weapons of mass destruction and
destroy them, the whole world will be better off.
Martin: Have any Republican Guard units surrendered yet?
Rumsfeld: Not as of last evening that I can recall.
Martin: Have American troops come in contact on the ground with
Republican Guard's units yet?
Rumsfeld: The Republican Guard's units have been kind of following a
pattern of moving closer to Baghdad and Tikrit and away from U.S.
forces are. They have been hit from the air and will continue to be
hit from the air, and they'd be well advised to surrender.
Martin: Are they going back to into a fortressed Baghdad?
Rumsfeld: I don't know that. I know they've been, over a period of
several weeks, tended to move back towards that area.
Schieffer: Let's take a break here, and then we'll come back and talk
about this some more. Back in a moment.
Schieffer: Back now with the Secretary of Defense and with David
Martin, our National Security Correspondent. Mr. Secretary, one thing
perhaps you can explain to me what's going on -- we seem to be going
into these towns. When we first entered, we had this one division, as
I understand it, of Iraqi soldiers that surrendered. But based on what
happened were, the senior officers, as I'm told, surrendered, and then
we hear from various people that the rest of the division sort of
melted away. Did we take them prisoner? Did we take their weapons? Or
did they just quit and go away? I don't understand -- just explain to
me what's happened.
Rumsfeld: Well, Gen. Franks and his land component commander, Lt.Gen.
(David D.) McKiernan have arranged so that there are prisoner-of-war
capabilities that move in established camps. The last time I looked,
there were something like a couple of thousand prisoners that have
been taken and are in these camps being fed and provided medical
attention and being treated humanely.
The situation can vary. In one case, the commander may come in and
say, "We're surrendering," and all the people would be put in one of
these camps. In another case, the commander might say to his troops,
"Look, we're going to throw it in. I'm going to surrender to the
senior officers. You folks just disappear, go back to your villages,
go where you want," and so by the time we get to the division, the
division is gone.
Schieffer: It's just not there.
Rumsfeld: It's not there, and we take the people who have offered
themselves up, and we've sent lots of leaflets, millions, and lots of
communications by radio, lots of covert transmissions of instructions
as to how people can get out of this fight and stay out of the way and
not get hurt. And people read those, listen to those things, and then
we start in communication with them, and then it happens.
Schieffer: Well, are these people -- the ones that just sort of
disappear -- I assume they take their weapons if they had any with
them. So that still poses some kind of threat.
Rumsfeld: I'm sure some do and some don't. There may be some
dead-enders -- our folks have gotten into some firefights with people
who are loyal to the regime -- very small numbers, not big units, you
know, threes and fours but, on the other hand, a lot of people don't
want to take their weapons, because they don't want to be seen as
threatening, and the instructions say leave your weapons somewhere
else and don't have them with you.
Schieffer: Well, let me just ask this  -- 
Rumsfeld: -- but they're a lot safer if they don't have their weapons.
Schieffer: If we just sort of roll into these towns and then roll on
by, and we obviously take out the infrastructure of leadership or
whatever there is there, do we just sort of leave the area there just
sort of at civil war because we have reports that some Iraqis are
killing each other in those areas. How do we maintain order in those
places?
Rumsfeld: I've not seen those reports.
Schieffer: Well, I may have misstated that.
Rumsfeld: It's a concern that there could be inter-communal strife or
religious strife or ethnic cleansing, as they said in the Balkans --
so we're alert and attentive to it, but what happens is, every hour
since G-Day, Ground Day, the number of U.S. forces in that country
goes up, and we are moving in a manner of Gen. Franks' choosing, and
what he does is he takes an area and then moves out and leaves it for
someone else. For example, the oil fields in the south -- it's a
wonderful thing that only 10 of those wells are ablaze, and the rest
of them, apparently, at the moment, secure. Sufficiently, that unless
there is a surprise, and there are deeply buried explosives that go
off -- we think the bulk of that oil field is safe for the Iraqi
people, because it's going to be needed to provide for their needs.
The forces that took that field have now turned it over to some
British elements that came in behind, and they have that
-- in the case of Basra. Basra is pretty well subdued. There is still
some fighting that will take place, and there will be forces that it
will stay there. Now -- the bulk of that country is -- from the -- in
the southwest, the west, and portions of the north is bacon. There
aren't large concentrations of people, and there would be no reason in
the world to leave lots of people along the way.
Schieffer: David?
Martin: Have we found any evidence yet of weapons of mass destruction?
Rumsfeld: Oh, my goodness, no. What? Have we been going for 72 hours
in the South and the West and the North, and have been fighting a war.
Martin: But you have searched some sites?
Rumsfeld: I don't know that.
Martin: You don't have a team out there in the West that is searching
sites?
Rumsfeld: We have lots of teams in the West, and lots of teams in the
North, and large numbers of forces in the South. Are they -- they may
very well have information from somebody that said, "Gee, you might
want to look here, and you'll find some people or you'll find some
things," but the task now is to see that there are not ballistic
missiles fired from the West at neighboring countries and to see that
the progress towards Basra
-- correction -- towards Baghdad continues going up and to see that
there is not any problems up in the North where people make mistakes
and think they can take advantage.
Martin: Is there any evidence that Saddam or whoever is in charge --
attempting to launch SCUD missiles at Israel?
Rumsfeld: I have no evidence of that.
Martin: So you've not seen any of the launches come out or anything
like that?
Rumsfeld: I have not heard anything about that.
Schieffer: I guess perhaps you've already answered this question, but
I take it you're seeing no evidence that they are getting ready to use
chemical weapons against our forces?
Rumsfeld: That would not be correct. We have seen intelligence that
capabilities are dispersed, and whether it's true or not, indications
that orders have been issued that permit selected commanders to make
judgments with respect to that but whether they will or not -- the
important thing to remember is Saddam Hussein cannot use weapons of
mass -- chemical or biological weapons. He has to get other people to
do it for him, and we have to persuade them that they best not do it
-- that they don't want to be supporting a dying regime, a regime
that's done, and be hunted down the rest of their lives for having
committed those kinds of crimes.
Schieffer: But let me just make sure I understand what you said here
-- you have seen preparations --
Rumsfeld: -- we've seen intelligence over months, over many months,
that they have chemical and biological weapons, and that they have
dispersed them, and that they are weaponized, and that, in one case at
least, that the command in control arrangements have been established.
Schieffer: And what does that mean? Is it, like, if the local
commander thinks he needs to use them, he's been authorized to do it?
Rumsfeld: I don't think I'm going to go beyond what I've said, but the
command in control arrangements have been set.
Schieffer: David, final question.
Martin: Let me just be clear on this -- you've seen intelligence, but
have you seen the weapons themselves?
Rumsfeld: Oh, no. I just answered that question. They're not there.
Martin: Well, those are the sites that you were searching, but I'm
talking about --
Rumsfeld: -- I didn't say we were searching sites, you said that.
Schieffer: Mr. Secretary, I'm sorry, we have to end it right there,
but I think we understand what you've said. Thank you so much for
joining us.
Rumsfeld: You bet.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)



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