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09 February 2003

Powell Discusses Iraq, North Korea on Fox News Sunday

(Interview on Fox News Sunday with Tony Snow) (3100)
The issue with Iraq is not whether or not to send in more weapons
inspectors, but rather whether or not that country is complying with
the basic requirements of U.N. Resolution 1441 to declare its weapons
programs fully and disarm, Secretary of State Colin Powell said in an
interview on Fox News Sunday February 9.
"We have had more than enough time to measure Iraqi compliance, and
all we have seen is noncompliance," he said. "This lack of cooperation
by Iraq and the false declaration, all the other actions that they
have taken and not taken since the resolution passed ... all set the
stage for the UN to go into session and find whether or not serious
consequences are appropriate at this time."
During the interview, Powell also discussed North Korea's nuclear
activity, referring to it as "a multilateral problem."
"What North Korea is doing is of concern not only to the United
States, but to South Korea, to Japan, to China, to Russia, to the
IAEA, 35 nations that came together and condemned North Korea's
actions," he said.
Following is a transcript of the interview, as released by the
Department of State:
(begin transcript)
Interview on Fox News Sunday with Tony Snow
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Washington, DC
February 9, 2003
MR. SNOW: Secretary Powell, Germany and France evidently are putting
together a proposal. Have you seen it yet?
SECRETARY POWELL: No, I have not seen it. I have just read press
reports about the proposal. But I assume it is some variation of what
the French proposed at the UN on Wednesday after I finished my
presentation, and that is some combination of additional inspectors
and additional reconnaissance.
But, and this is the point, it is not more inspectors that we need; it
is more cooperation -- far more cooperation from Saddam Hussein -- is
what we need. And it is not what we have been getting. So it is not
the need for more inspectors; it is the need for Saddam Hussein to
come into compliance with the basic requirements of UN Resolution
1441.
MR. SNOW: It appears that Germany, France, now Russia, are still going
to push through a resolution of this sort. Would you support it?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I will, you know, not comment on a resolution
that does not yet exist, but we have to keep our eye focused on the
ball. The ball is Iraqi noncompliance, not the need for more
inspectors.
MR. SNOW: A lot of Americans think that the Germans and French in
particular are merely trying to get in the way and bollix up the works
for the Bush administration. What's your view?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I think they are not following what the
resolution called for, what 1441 called for. [Resolution] 1441, which
passed 15-0, with the French voting for it, said that Iraq has weapons
of mass destruction and they are in material breach of 16 previous
resolutions. The French agreed to that.
And we said we were giving Saddam Hussein one last chance by this
resolution. He has had that one last chance now for 3 months. If he
does not now come into compliance and do what he is supposed to do --
turn over all the documents, bring people forward for interviews -- if
he actually did what he was supposed to do, you would only need a
handful of inspectors.
So more inspectors does not answer the question. And what France has
to do, and what I think Germany has to do, and all the members of the
Security Council have to do, is read 1441 again. This lack of
cooperation by Iraq and the false declaration, all the other actions
that they have taken and not taken since the resolution passed, are
setting -- all set the stage for the UN to go into session and find
whether or not serious consequences are appropriate at this time.
MR. SNOW: If the UN were to adopt a resolution, the Security Council
were to adopt a resolution calling for more inspectors and more UN
forces, would that demonstrate to you that the UN, in fact, is losing
credibility and relevance?
SECRETARY POWELL: I do not think that is going to be the issue before
the UN. The issue before the UN is going to be whether or not Iraq is
faithfully complying with 1441. We have had more than enough time to
measure Iraqi compliance, and all we have seen is noncompliance.
This coming Friday, the 14th of February, Dr. Blix and Dr. ElBaradei
will report once again on the extent of Iraqi cooperation or
non-cooperation, and I think at that point the Council is going to
have to start to come together and make a judgment as to what next
steps should be. And I do not think next steps should be "let us send
in more inspectors to be stiffed by the Iraqis."
MR. SNOW: Is it any coincidence in your mind that this action, which I
think may fairly be called a stalling action, is being supported by
the three nations -- France, Germany and Russia -- that have the most
extensive commercial ties right now with Iraq?
SECRETARY POWELL: I do not want to attribute a particular motive to
them. They clearly have been doing everything they can to see if more
time could not be given to Iraq to comply. If I thought Iraq was going
to comply, then that would be a reasonable approach.
But Iraq has demonstrated over the last several months that they have
no intention of complying. So how much longer do we need to measure
this noncompliance? The resolution was clear. What we had is three
months of noncompliance. And if the inspectors show once again and
demonstrate once again, as they did the last time they reported, that
that noncompliance continues, then I think it is time for the UN to
clearly understand the seriousness of the situation and for Iraq to
understand that serious consequences are going to follow.
MR. SNOW: Do you believe that the United Nations would, in fact, pass
a second resolution, then, authorizing the use of force based on the
assumption that next Friday Iraq will not have complied with 1441?
SECRETARY POWELL: I cannot predict what the United Nations will do,
but I think the record is pretty clear as to what Iraq has not been
doing. And more and more, with each passing day, Iraq is in greater
material breach of the resolution, and I hope that the UN will do its
duty. I hope that the UN will not slip into irrelevance by failing to
step up to its responsibilities at this moment in history.
MR. SNOW: And if it does not take action against Iraq pending the
report on Friday, it will slip into irrelevance, in your view?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think that if the United Nations, faced with
continued Iraqi noncompliance, does not do something about that
noncompliance -- other than just say, "well, keep non-complying and we
will send three times as many inspectors in to watch you non-comply,"
then it will be slipping into irrelevance.
MR. SNOW: Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld says the longer this
drags out, the more likely war is. Do you agree? And if so, why?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I think that there has to be a limit to this.
I mean, if there is not compliance -- I keep coming back to the word
because that is the word. The word is not "inspections," the word is
"compliance." If Iraq complies, then there will be no war. But Iraq
has "non-complied" and you cannot just keep this state of
noncompliance going.
So what Secretary Rumsfeld is saying is you have to draw a line at
some point, you have to bring it to an end.
MR. SNOW: So you are not impressed with the moves Iraq has made in the
last couple days in its meetings with Hans Blix and Mohamed ElBaradei?
SECRETARY POWELL: They have made no moves that I know of. The only
thing I have heard is that there have been serious conversations and a
report last evening that some additional documents were turned over,
but we do not know what those documents are.
But if they are real, serious documents, they should have been turned
over months ago. We cannot have a situation where Iraq sort of
dribbles out a little bit in the hope that it can buy off the United
Nations and lead the United Nations down some path to irrelevancy.
MR. SNOW: The United States has supplied intelligence information to
the UN inspections teams. Is it not true that those teams have only
used a tiny fraction of that intelligence?
SECRETARY POWELL: I cannot answer that. I do not know how much of the
intelligence that we have provided to them they have used. But we have
provided quite a bit and I just do not know exactly how much of it
they have used. But we are cooperating with them fully.
MR. SNOW: Well, it's telling that you wouldn't know how much they
used. You could be able to track their movements and get some sense,
so it's pretty clear that there is --
SECRETARY POWELL: I did not say the United States Government does not
know.
MR. SNOW: Yeah.
SECRETARY POWELL: I am just saying that I do not follow the exact
numbers on a day-by-day basis. There are others in my Department and
in our government, of course, who do.
MR. SNOW: Iraq is arguing that the evidence you laid out Wednesday is
bogus and they have been taking reporters to various sites that you
presented satellite imagery. What is your response?
SECRETARY POWELL: I fully expected them to do that. We knew they would
jump into a PR game on Wednesday afternoon, and they did. And I can
assure you that each and every piece of evidence that I put down we
have multiple sources for, and it is solid material. And the fact that
they run a few reporters out there and show the reporters what they
want the reporters to see does not undercut the material that I
presented last Wednesday.
MR. SNOW: Let's talk about the link between Iraq and al-Qaida. You've
talked about that. Is there any direct evidence that Saddam Hussein
has transferred weapons of mass destruction to al-Qaida?
SECRETARY POWELL: There is evidence that over the years al-Qaida has
sought training and information, and perhaps material related to
weapons of mass destruction in the manner that I described in my
presentation on Wednesday. I do not want to overstretch the point, but
I do not want to underplay it. It is that very nexus, that very
possibility, that causes us such concern, and I tried to make that
case Wednesday. Terrorists, non-state terrorists who can find a haven
in a place like Iraq, and in that haven they cannot only find a safe
place to operate but they can perhaps find these sorts of terrible
weapons and technologies that they can use to threaten the world.
MR. SNOW: Is it your view that Ansar Al-Islam# in Northern Iraq is, in
fact, busy trying to put together factories for the manufacture of
such things?
SECRETARY POWELL: We do know that the facility that I described in my
presentation on Wednesday has been used to develop poisons, and not
just from a picture of that facility but a lot of other source
material we have that shows that things that come out of that facility
and have transited through various parts of Europe and Central Asia,
reaching Western Europe.
MR. SNOW: So, in that case, in fact, Iraq has helped al-Qaida
distribute these?
SECRETARY POWELL: One has to be a little careful here because that
part of Iraq is not under Saddam Hussein's direct control -- although
we do know that Iraqi intelligence officers have been working in that
area and there are connections that are of concern to us.
MR. SNOW: All right. Carl Levin, who is going to be on our show later,
has said that the United States -- I want to show a quote to you that
pertains to this -- he says, "Secretary Powell disclosed that al-Qaida
has been producing and exporting poisons and toxins from a laboratory
in Northeastern Iraq that is beyond the control of Saddam Hussein." He
continues: "I favor prompt and forceful U.S. military action to deal
with that problem as we have done in attacking al-Qaida terrorists in
Afghanistan and Yemen."
SECRETARY POWELL: We are constantly reviewing military options and
targets, and it is not just a matter of a military act. You have to
think of a military act at the same time that you consider the
political, diplomatic, and other consequences of such an act, and how
good a target do you have. So I can assure you that we are constantly
reviewing our military options, but I never discuss them publicly.
MR. SNOW: But that would be a military option, then?
SECRETARY POWELL: We are constantly reviewing our military options,
Tony.
MR. SNOW: All right. There is also fear that Saddam Hussein, in a time
of war, might unleash weapons of mass destruction. You've spent your
life in the military, for the most part. In the past, when leaders
have issued such orders to their generals, as Hitler did at the end of
World War II, the generals have said thank you very much, but I prefer
to live.
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
MR. SNOW: Is it not your view that Saddam may, in fact, issue such an
order but his generals, valuing their lives more than his, probably
won't act on it?
SECRETARY POWELL: If they were wise, they would come to that
conclusion. I can't tell you what an Iraqi general might do. But it
would be very foolish of them, and we have made it clear that there
would be consequences in any conflict for those generals who would use
weapons of mass destruction against coalition forces.
We faced this problem before. We faced it during the Gulf war. And one
of the great concerns I had as Chairman at that time was that they
might use chemicals against our forces. They did not. But we made it
clear there would be consequences if leaders in the Iraqi armed forces
did that or if Iraq did it as a nation.
MR. SNOW: Why did we withdraw our last point of contact, the Polish
Interests Section in Baghdad, from our dealings with Iraq?
SECRETARY POWELL: This is a judgment the Polish Government made and we
respect their judgment, and they have been enormously helpful to us
over the years.
MR. SNOW: All right. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld had some fairly
scathing comments to make about the possibility that NATO might not
come to the aid of Turkey, which is a NATO member. Let's play that
quote and I want to follow up on it.
"Turkey needs to be looked after in this instance. They're an ally and
they're a friend and they're the only country that's a moderate Muslim
country in NATO. They're the only country that borders Iraq. The idea
that NATO would deny them NATO support in that circumstance, in my
view, is inexcusable."
MR. SNOW: Is this now a test of NATO's credibility? Germany, France,
and Belgium say they are going to act to veto any direct action in
support of Turkey.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, first of all, I agree totally with Secretary
Rumsfeld. It is inappropriate for NATO to be presented with a request
like this, where all that is being asked for is for planning
assistance and start to make plans to assist Turkey if it becomes
threatened by Iraq in the course of a conflict -- that is all that's
being asked for. And for three NATO nations to say with respect to a
fourth nation "we will not even consider that at this time because of
a dispute, really, we are having within the United Nations Security
Council about what follows next," I think is inexcusable on the part
of those countries, and I hope they will think differently by the time
they have to make a judgment tomorrow -- whether they will "break
silence," as it is called. This is the time for NATO to rally and to
stand behind one of our NATO colleagues that may be put at risk, not
by the United States but by Iraq. And so I hope that the Germans and
the French and the Belgians will think differently about this over the
next 24 hours.
MR. SNOW: Final question. Republican Senators Lugar and Hagel are
saying that the United States should engage in direct talks with North
Korea. South Korea is saying the same thing. Will we?
SECRETARY POWELL: Eventually, there will be talks between the United
States and North Korea, I believe. But I believe it should be within a
multilateral setting. This is a multilateral problem.
Imagine you are the Secretary of State. You are criticized when you
are unilateral and then you get criticized when you are trying to make
something multilateral and people say it should be unilateral. In this
case, what North Korea is doing is of concern not only to the United
States, but to South Korea, to Japan, to China, to Russia, to the
IAEA, 35 nations that came together and condemned North Korea's
actions.
We should not let North Korea dictate the terms under which these
conversations take place. I think there will ultimately be
conversations, but I think other nations have a role to play.
Take China, for example. China has said that it is their policy that
the Korean Peninsula not be nuclearized, in fact, it be denuclearized.
Well, therefore, China should play an active role in making sure that
that is the case. And they have considerable influence with North
Korea. Half their foreign aid goes to North Korea. Eighty percent of
North Korea's wherewithal with respect to energy and economic activity
comes from China. China has a role to play, and I hope China will play
that role.
MR. SNOW: Secretary Powell, thanks for joining us.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)