Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

DATE=01/17/03

TYPE=INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

TITLE=RAYMOND ZILINSKAS, HEADS CHEMICAL AND BIOLOGICAL WEAPONS NON-PROLIFERATION PROGRAM, MONTEREY INSTITUTE OF INTERNATIONAL STUDIES.

NUMBER=3-494

BYLINE=TOM CROSBY

DATELINE=WASHINGTON

INTERNET=

/// Editors: This interview is available in Dalet under SOD/English News Now Interviews in the folder for today or yesterday ///

INTRO: The White House is calling the discovery of empty warheads for chemical weapons in Iraq "troubling and serious," and says they are not listed on Iraq's recent weapons declaration to the United Nations. Iraqi General Hossam Mohammed Amin says the rockets were imported 15 years ago, and are too old to be usable.

To learn more about those empty chemical warheads discovered in Iraq we talked to Raymond Zilinskas. He is a chemical and biological specialist, who took part in the U-N weapons inspections in Iraq following the Gulf War. He now heads the Chemical and Biological Weapons Non-Proliferation Program at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. He tells V-O-A's Tom Crosby, the discovered warheads suggest some different possibilities:

MR. ZILINSKAS: There are three possibilities here. One is, as General Amin stated, that these things were purchased a long time ago, in 1988, and that they had been stored in this depot since then, and nothing has ever been done with them. So, if that's true, and if that checks out, then there is really no issue here as far as Iraqi responsibilities under [UN Resolution] 1441.

The second possibility is that there were chemical agents in these warheads once upon a time, but during the UNSCOM days -- in other words, pre-December 1998 days -- that was taken away and destroyed. So, the only issue here would be whether or not the Iraqis declared that. If they declared it, no problem. If they didn't declare it, then I guess you have some sort of minor glitch as far as their full, final and complete disclosure.

MR. CROSBY: But this is not what some people are calling a 'smoking gun?'

MR. ZILINSKAS: Well, the third option is that the agents that these warheads contained were taken out of them last week or the day before yesterday or, anyway, recently. Then you have a very big problem. Because, after all, the Iraqis have declared that they don't have any of these weapons anymore at all. So, if it recently was removed -- and I think the sampling and testing will prove that -- then you have a real serious issue, which probably constitutes a material breach.

MR. CROSBY: Were you on the ground there right now, what kind of traces of elements would you be looking for on these warheads?

MR. ZILINSKAS: The signatures for all the normal chemical weapons agents are well known. So, what you do is you take a little bit of whatever was inside there, you suspend it in some sort of solution, and then you shoot it through gas chromatography equipment and you get a reading. And the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons has done signatures on all known chemical warfare agents, so you can compare whatever you get from these readings with what they have. So, you can almost immediately know whether or not there was a known chemical weapons agent.

And pretty much the same thing, if you had broken down product, in other words, if you had a chemical agent that had been sitting there for a long time, and it breaks down into its constituent parts, you have big databases that contain the signatures of those also.

MR. CROSBY: Of course, Iraq has in the past used chemical and biological weapons, has it not? And that must give you also a little bit more data to work from.

MR. ZILINSKAS: I must say that they never used biological weapons, as far as we know, but they certainly have used chemical weapons.

MR. CROSBY: Indeed, chemical weapons were used against the Kurds.

MR. ZILINSKAS: And also against the Iranians. So, yes, the victims of these attacks, some of them anyway, at least with the Iranians, were taken to other places, and the agents that affected them have been sampled and been identified.

Anyway, there is no secret, as far as what constitutes chemical weapons and what the analysis of chemical weapons entails. This is actually no problem at all.

MR. CROSBY: You were on the ground there back in 1994, if I'm not mistaken.

MR. ZILINSKAS: That's right. I was there two times, each time for three weeks.

MR. CROSBY: And when you watch the progress of this inspection, do you feel that it's going as it should?

MR. ZILINSKAS: Well, these guys, UNMOVIC and the agency today, are much, much more intense than we were ever. And I just heard today that they went into scientists' homes and inspected them. That's something that we never did with UNSCOM. So, I think that the invasiveness of the present inspection processes are much more so than they used to be. And I think that they must be grilling the collective souls of the Iraqis very carefully.

MR. CROSBY: Is there a difference, though, between whether these people are verifying compliance with U-N resolutions and whether they are being detectives?

MR. ZILINSKAS: At this point, they're mostly being detectives, I think. They are gathering the evidence. And then, once they have the evidence -- you have to remember, UNMOVIC and the agency are technical agencies, so they are doing technical work. So, they are then collecting the evidence to be presented to the Security Council. And the Security Council then makes the political decisions, which is somewhat analogous to a trial, I guess, in the legal sense.

MR. CROSBY: Do you kind of miss being out of the action?

MR. ZILINSKAS: Well, I certainly do. I thought, when I was an inspector, it was one of the more exciting times in my life, and I would have certainly done it again. But at that time, of course, everything was ad hoc, and now they have real international civil servants doing the job. So, you have to apply to the United Nations for a job, which I'm not about to do.

OUTRO: Chemical and biological weapons specialist Raymond Zilinskas of the Monterey Institute of International Studies.

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