07 September 2003

Powell Says Iraqis Should Form Plan for Self-Government

Interview on ABC's "This Week" September 7

The plan for Iraq's transition to self-government "should come from the Iraqi Governing Council," not from the United States or any other member of the United Nations Security Council, Secretary of State Colin Powell said in an interview on ABC's "This Week" September 7.

"We agree that sovereignty is what we are all for. And I don't think there's any disagreement among any of the members of the Security Council that we want to turn over Iraq to the Iraqi people as soon as possible. But it has to be done in a responsible way," he said.

Powell also stressed the importance of "raising up Iraqi indigenous forces to take over the security responsibilities."

"If we can get Iraqis trained and equipped quickly to start doing these guard functions and to go to places that are relatively stable and keep them stable, then that's what we should do and not send more U.S. troops to stand around these places," he said.

Regarding the resignation of Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, Powell said that Abbas "did not have the kind of political support that the Palestinian people should have given to him, and he did not have access to all the security forces that might have allowed him to take on" the terrorist organization Hamas.

"We will not see a way forward in the presence of continued terrorist activity on the part of Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and other similar organizations," he said "[W]hoever becomes the new Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority must have under his control all of the security forces, and he must have a solid political mandate from the PLC [Palestinian Legislative Council] in order to go after these terrorist organizations."

On North Korea, Powell said that right now "the first challenge before us is to get North Korea to say clearly that they are prepared to give up entirely their nuclear weapons program in a verifiable manner."

"[T]he only thing they've asked for from us, the United States, is some sort of security assurance," he continued. "[W]e will have to make a judgment with our allies over the next two weeks, before the next meeting, as to what kind of security assurance would be satisfactory for all of us to provide to the North Koreans so that they would feel comfortable in taking this step."

"Other items with respect to economic assistance, which they've asked other countries for, or other things that might be done as we move down this road, that's not on the table right now," he added.

Following is a transcript of the interview, as released by the Department of State:

(begin transcript)

Interview on ABC's This Week with George Stephanopoulos
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Washington, DC
September 7, 2003

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Late Friday afternoon, the White House announced that President Bush would address the nation tonight on the global war against terrorism, and its prime battleground, Iraq. This comes amid continuing attacks on American troops, and persistent criticism of America's strategy in the war that began two years ago this week, on 9/11.

Moments ago, I talked about all this with Secretary of State, Colin Powell.

Tonight, the President's going to address the war that began that day. It's now being fought on several fronts around the world, two major battles, in Afghanistan and Iraq. Is it now time for -- as Senator John Warner and others have suggested -- a midcourse correction in the war?

SECRETARY POWELL: I don't think so. I think we are -- we have a good strategy, and we're actually keeping that strategy. Let's look at the results. I heard Senator Kennedy in your opening talk about the results. The results are, two despotic regimes are gone -- the Taliban, and Saddam Hussein. The results are that there will be no mass graves created of the kind that Don Rumsfeld visited in Iraq earlier this week.

Another result is that children are going back to school in both Afghanistan and Iraq. The hospitals are open. The electricity's coming back on. The sewage system is being repaired. All of the infrastructure that was destroyed systematically over the years of misrule by the Taliban and by Saddam Hussein in Iraq, being restored by the international community under the leadership of the United States. Both countries, national armies are being recreated so that they can assume responsibility for their own security, their own police function. Political systems are being created, Afghanistan a little further along than Iraq.

But we have a strategy, we know how to go about this, we have done it before in our history, and now we're trying to generate more support from the international community. The results, for example, in Iraq. Right now, we have a political process under way. A Governing Council has been formed, they have appointed cabinet ministers, a constitutional process is under way to write a constitution, free elections will follow from that, and what we have to do is stay the course. Are there still difficulties? Yes. Are terrorists trying to take advantage of this situation? Yes. Are we taking casualties? Regrettably, yes. But we're going to stay the course.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Not everyone agrees the strategy is sound. In fact, someone who works for you, General Anthony Zinni, a consultant at the State Department, the former head of U.S. Central Command, gave a remarkable speech this week, in which he said that you're working on a flawed strategy that he believes this is exposing American troops to unnecessary risks. I want to play a portion of what he said, and get you to respond:

"Where are we, the American people, if we accept this, if we accept this level of sacrifice, without that level of planning? Almost everyone in this room, my contemporaries, our feelings and our sensitivities were forged on the battlefields of Vietnam, where we heard the garbage and the lies, and we saw the sacrifice. We swore never again we would do that. We swore never again we would allow it to happen. And I ask you, is it happening again?"

SECRETARY POWELL: No, it's not happening again, and if you ask General Sanchez, and if you ask General Abizaid, if you ask General Patrais of the 101st Airborne Division, who're doing a tremendous job bringing stability to the northern part of Iraq, you will find a different point of view than that expressed by General Zinni. In the north, things are going well. In the south, things are stabilizing. In the center, in the Sunni Triangle, we're still having some difficulties. But we're not, we're not shying away from these difficulties. We will take these problems on and solve them one at a time.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But there was a report, an internal report, by the Joint Chiefs of Staff, released this week to The Washington Times, that said that there wasn't proper planning for the post-war effort, and perhaps that the rush to war in March prevented proper planning.

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, be that as it may, and I'll let the Joint Chiefs of Staff speak for their own report, the point is that we now understand the nature of the task that is before us. We know that there remain Fedayeen and Baathist elements, we know that there are terrorists who are coming into Iraq, and we will now identify this enemy, and we will root them out.

And that's what the President's going to talk to tonight. He's going to talk to the fact that what we have to do is establish security and go after these terrorists, and then we have to involve more of the international community, more beyond what's already involved -- I mean, 29 nations are standing alongside us in Iraq now, contributing something like 20,000 troops. We have two multinational divisions there, one led by the Brits, and one led by the Poles, so we're not there alone. But the President will call for more involvement on the part of the international community.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Not there alone, but the United States has not been able to get major troops from India, from Pakistan, from Turkey, from other nations. And UN Secretary General Kofi Annan gave an interview to Time Magazine today where he said, perhaps a little more patience at the front end would have helped build this coalition and give more time for this planning. Looking back, do you think it would have been wise to wait just a little bit longer to give more of a chance to build a coalition?

SECRETARY POWELL: A little bit longer for what? I mean, we saw what Saddam Hussein was doing. We think that the action we took was appropriate. And I think the results demonstrate that it was the right thing to do. That regime is gone, and we now see the horrible nature of that regime as the mass graves are uncovered, as we see all of the weapons, the weaponry, and the destruction that he has caused throughout that country. So we have no apologies for what we did. And we are working with the Turks and the Indians and the Pakistanis and others to see whether they are able to make a contribution.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Are they ready to do that?

SECRETARY POWELL: But let's not dismiss the contribution that has been made by Spain, and Poland and the Czech Republic, and so many other nations that are there. So let's not say, "Well, we don't have this country and that country", and ignore the fact that we do have 29 countries, and we do have a solid coalition that's working.

Now the resolution that the United States will be working with our Security Council colleagues on getting through over the next couple of weeks, I would say, will give a broader mandate for the international community to come together, talks about a multinational force. It talks about a political process to return sovereignty to the Iraqi people. You can't do it overnight, you have to have institutions, you have to have a constitution, you have to have elections before you can turn everything over the Iraqi people. And all of that is in train.

Ambassador Bremer gave a speech to the Iraqi people on Friday, where he laid this all out, seven straight steps leading to sovereignty. And so we are as anxious as anyone is to return sovereignty to the Iraqi people. But it has to be done in the right way, the responsible way.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: France and Germany have said to sign on that resolution -- they seem to have two big concerns: one, they want that timetable speeded up, and secondly, they want some sort of process where the UN or another international body shares power in the political administration with Ambassador Bremer. Is the United States prepared to accept that?

SECRETARY POWELL: I want to see what it is that the French and the Germans, but principally the French, really mean by this. It is one thing to toss out statements and slogans, it is quite something else to operationalize those statements and slogans in a resolution. And we will be working with the French.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Are they doing more than tossing out statements and slogans now, do you believe?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, right now, I have heard the logic of -- the logic of occupation must give way to the logic of sovereignty. They say that over and over. We agree that sovereignty is what we are all for. And I don't think there's any disagreement among any of the members of the Security Council that we want to turn over Iraq to the Iraqi people as soon as possible. But it has to be done in a responsible way. And we do have a logic of sovereignty. That's what the President said from the very beginning. We are doing this for the Iraqi people, not for the benefit of the United States, but the benefit of the Iraqi people, the benefit of the region, the benefit of the world, and it's part of our global war against terrorism.

But it has to be done in a sensible way, in a correct way. Ambassador Bremer is working with Iraqi officials to come forward with a plan. And so the plan should come from the Iraqi Governing Council, not from the United States, not from France, not from Germany and the other members of the Security Council. And the resolution asks for it -- the Iraqi Governing Council, which is now up and functioning, to provide a plan, in coordination with Ambassador Bremer, in coordination with the Secretary General's representative, to describe the plan that they would like to execute, and the timetable they believe it is executable in.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: In the meantime, the security situation is getting worse. I want to show some figures of the wounded in action over the last several months. It shows for May, June and July, there were 277 wounded in action, about three a day. In August 297, ten per day. That trend line is getting worse. In response, the British are expected to announce tomorrow they're sending 3,000 more troops to Iraq. Why not send more American troops to bolster security in the short run until these negotiations are done?

SECRETARY POWELL: The commanders believe that the number of troops that are there now are adequate to the task that they have for those troops and the focus of our energy right now is raising up Iraqi security forces: an army, a police force, a border patrol, these kinds of forces. So I go with the recommendation of our commanders and the judgment of our commanders that the number of U.S. troops there now is adequate. And our energy should be on raising up Iraqi indigenous forces to take over the security responsibilities. If we can get Iraqis trained and equipped quickly to start doing these guard functions and to go to places that are relatively stable and keep them stable, then that's what we should do and not send more U.S. troops to stand around these places.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: On weapons of mass destruction, David Kay's survey team is expecting a report in the next couple weeks. The Los Angeles Times reported last week that they have found no evidence, biological or chemical weapons being produced since 1991. Are you still confident that actual weapons of mass destruction will be found in Iraq?

SECRETARY POWELL: I'm still confident that there were weapons of mass destruction, and programs to develop weapons of mass destruction, and we'll wait and see what David Kay says in his report.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Were. When were they destroyed?

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I don't know that they were destroyed. There were at the time that we took the action that we took. And I'm not saying they're not there now. We will wait and see what Dr. Kay reports.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me now turn to the Palestinian situation. Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas resigned yesterday. He said today that that resignation is final, and when he talked to the Palestinian parliament, he had some very harsh words for the United States. He said the United States did not do enough to support him.

SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we did everything we could to support him. The major challenge we had, and he had, was that Hamas, a terrorist organization, would not stop its terrorist activities. And the Palestinian legislative council, and Mr. Arafat, and other authorities within the Palestinian community, did not give Mr. Abbas the resources that he needed in order to go after Hamas. We have to change that, or else we will not find progress ahead of us.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Associates of Mr. Abbas said that Prime Minister Arafat, President Arafat, betrayed him. Do you agree with that?

SECRETARY POWELL: I'm not going to characterize one person's statement. What I would say is that Mr. Arafat did not put under Mr. Abbas the security forces that were under Mr. Arafat's control. As a result, Mr. Abbas did not have the kind of political support that the Palestinian people should have given to him, and he did not have access to all the security forces that might have allowed him to take on this terrorist organization. Now I'm very pleased that yesterday the European Union realized, finally, that they could not deal with Hamas any longer, could not separate Hamas's militant link and its political link, and they made a political decision over the weekend to consider all of Hamas a terrorist organization. We will not see a way forward in the presence of continued terrorist activity on the part of Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and other similar organizations. And whoever becomes the new Prime Minister of the Palestinian Authority must have under his control all of the security forces, and he must have a solid political mandate from the PLC in order to go after these terrorist organizations.

We started to move out, in a rather good way at the beginning of the roadmap after Aqaba. Cities were turned over: Bethlehem, Gaza Strip was turned over. There was a ceasefire for a while. But Hamas retained the capability to get out of that ceasefire any time they chose to do so, and they chose to do so. And as a result we went right back into this cycle of strike and counterstrike, and the end result is that the dreams of the Palestinian people have been deferred once again.

Now, if I may, George, it is now important, over the next several days, for the Palestinian Legislative Council, to make a judgment as to who will lead the Palestinian Authority as Prime Minister, and will that person have the political authority, and the resources to deal with terrorism. They have to answer this question if they want to keep moving toward that state that we all hope for that is part of the President's vision.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: But won't whoever that person is be the hand-picked person of Yasser Arafat and that could perpetuate the problem we've seen?

SECRETARY POWELL: It remains to be seen. Whoever that person is and -- hand-picked, not hand-picked -- whether it is somebody who reflects the will of most of the Palestinian leaders, that person has to have political authority and a determination to go after terrorism. And whoever that person is remains to be determined. If that person does not make a solid commitment to follow the roadmap, go after terrorism, and stop these terrorist attacks, then it's not clear that we'll be able to move forward. It has to stop with the end of terrorist attack organizations such as Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Given what you say about Hamas, do you think it's appropriate for Israel to continue its policy of assassinating Hamas leaders?

SECRETARY POWELL: We think that this -- you know, we've always been opposed to this policy, and we have cautioned our Israeli friends that as they do these kinds of self-defense activities, they have to consider the long-range consequences. To kill one Hamas leader, but to wound nine children or ten children in the course of this, who will grow up to become Hamas leaders or Hamas killers later, they have to consider the long-term consequences of this policy.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: The Israeli Foreign Minister this morning said it's time now, finally, for Israel to expel Yasser Arafat. The United States has been opposed to this, warned Prime Minister Ariel Sharon not to expel Arafat. Is that still the United States policy?

SECRETARY POWELL: Yes, and I don't know what the Israeli cabinet or the Prime Minister think with respect to the Foreign Minister's statement.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: So -- but you do not want Prime Minister Sharon to expel Arafat?

SECRETARY POWELL: I don't think there's any purpose in doing it right now. What purpose would it serve? To give him a broader stage to operate from outside of the region?

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me now turn to the North Korea. Former President Jimmy Carter two days ago called the standoff on the Korean Peninsula "the greatest threat to global peace". Do you agree with that?

SECRETARY POWELL: No, I don't think it's the greatest threat to global peace. I think it is a -- I think terrorism is the greatest threat to global peace. North Korea is a particular problem. And we're hard at work on that problem.

When we first discovered the problem last fall, and the problem in a nutshell was that North Korea, having been capped with one of its nuclear weapons programs -- everybody said that's terrific, the Agreed Framework stopped that North Korean nuclear program -- they were working on another one. We found it and called them to it, called attention to it, and said what about this?

They said we're doing it, we're a nuclear weapon-holding country, we told previous administrations ten years ago, they didn't believe us, we're telling you now.

Well, we have to accept them at their word. What we did, rather than just running into a negotiation, and once again, having them try to get something out of us for promises that weren't kept last time to be repeated now, we said this is a problem for the international community, and especially for North Korea's neighbors.

Everybody said it will never work, they will never come into a meeting with anyone except the United States. Well, we have succeeded in bringing all of the neighbors to the table: China, Japan, South Korea, Russia, North Korea, and the United States. And we had, I think, a very good meeting a week and a half ago with all of these six parties, with all six parties saying "We want to see a denuclearized Korean Peninsula", to include the North Koreans saying that.

Now what we have to do is to find a way forward, in order to make sure that this time, if the North Korea's are serious, and what they are asking for are security assurances. The President has said repeatedly, "We're not going to invade you, there's no hostile intent, we retain all of our options, but we can find a peaceful solution to this problem".

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: As part of that way forward, are you prepared to provide aid and other incentives in a step-by-step process in return for a step-by-step builddown of the Korean nuclear program?

SECRETARY POWELL: We haven't gotten that far. Right now, the first challenge before us is to get North Korea to say clearly that they are prepared to give up entirely their nuclear weapons program in a verifiable manner. And we know that they want from us, the only thing they've asked for from us, the United States, is a -- some sort of security assurance. That's the first step.

Other items with respect to economic assistance, which they've asked other countries for, or other things that might be done as we move down this road, that's not on the table right now. Step one is an end to their program in a verifiable way, their commitment to an end in that program. It won't be ended in one meeting or with one statement. It's going to take time.

And we will have to make a judgment with our allies over the next two weeks, before the next meeting, as to what kind of security assurance would be satisfactory for all of us to provide to the North Koreans so that they would feel comfortable in taking this step.

MR. STEPHANOPOULOS: Secretary Powell, thank you very much.

SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, George.

(end transcript)

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