Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

DATE=08/01/2003

TYPE=ON THE LINE

NUMBER=1-01368

TITLE=IRAQ RECONSTRUCTION

INTERNET=Yes

EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY 619-0038

CONTENT=PLEASE NOTE THIS IS FOR BROADCAST FRIDAY, AUGUST 1, IT BEING RELEASED EARLY. THANKS.

THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

Host: Progress in Rebuilding Iraq. Next, On the Line.

[music]

Host: Iraq continues to be a dangerous place, especially for U-S-led coalition forces providing security for Iraqi hospitals, schools, and other vulnerable sites. Nearly every day, there has been at least one attack on coalition forces. But those attacks have not stopped progress in Iraq. Local citizens' councils are taking on increasing responsibility in cities across the country, and a new national governing council has been appointed to start the process of developing democratic institutions. Coalition forces, working with Iraqis, continue to root out the remnants of Saddam Hussein's Baathist regime -- most notably, tracking down and killing Saddam's brutal sons, Uday and Qusay. How goes the reconstruction in Iraq? I'll ask my guests: George F. Ward, director of professional training at the United States Institute of Peace and formerly the coordinator for humanitarian assistance in Iraq; Haydar Hamdani, an Iraqi-American journalist; and joining us by phone from Baghdad: Ahmed Al-Rahim, professor of Arabic language and literature at Harvard University. Welcome, and thanks for joining us today. George Ward, you were running humanitarian assistance in Iraq. Perhaps the place to start is whether there was a humanitarian crisis -- whether there is a humanitarian crisis in Iraq at this point.

Ward: Well, strictly speaking, there was not a humanitarian crisis in Iraq and there is not one today. We planned for a number of crisis scenarios in the humanitarian field, none of which materialized.

Host: Was that a surprise?

Ward: It was a bit of a surprise, although we knew that in some areas, for example, in the area of food, there was a lot of food in households. Things went right, and we were able to stand the food distribution system up again, so that households were resupplied.

Host: Well, Haydar Hamdani, if not a humanitarian crisis, what is the situation like on the ground throughout Iraq?

Hamdani: Actually, it's actually a security crisis. The Iraqi people need security. We live in a region [in which] people [do] not want Iraq to be a democratic country. There are so many people who came from outside Iraq throughout the region, [entered] Iraq, and tried to conduct suicide attacks, tried to conduct killing the Americans, killing the forces there, so this is the situation right now. We need more security. We need Iraqi police forces inside the city instead of the American and British. They have to stay outside and let the Iraqis themselves control the policing inside the towns and cities.

Host: Ahmed Al-Rahim, are you there by phone?

Al-Rahim: Yes.

Host: Would you agree that the problem in Iraq at this point is a security issue as opposed to a humanitarian issue?

Al-Rahim: Yes, I would agree that it is a security issue right now in Iraq. The question is, "What is going to happen to the forces that are -- the U.S. and British forces now?" They need to begin training Iraqi police, and also the military, and that's already started. Recently, the academy was founded for police, but it's moving very slowly, and Iraqis are feeling very frustrated by that, but nevertheless, things are progressing, and security is improving.

Host: Do you believe that it could be moving more quickly?

Al-Rahim: I think so. I think there needs to be more co-operation between the coalition forces and Iraqis in establishing security and establishing the military. Also, I think that there is quite a large group of Iraqi-Americans here who need to be consulted on these issues as well, and that is not going very smoothly.

Host: Well, George Ward, the issue of how quickly to establish Iraqi participation in a military or in security forces. There was a big issue early on where first efforts at doing that resulted in a large number of Baathist party members having roles there [so] that the U.S. military had to then step back. How much does that complicate the effort to engage Iraqis in these crucial positions -- trying to sort out who is complicit in Saddam's crimes and who is not?

Ward: The initial priority in Iraq was to begin to avert a humanitarian crisis and begin reconstruction such that the basic needs of the Iraqi people would be taken care of. In order to do that, when we got to Baghdad, we began to work with the people who are there. I think it's quite natural that at a certain point a few weeks into the operation, we took a step backward, a step away from the situation and looked at it and made the decision. Ambassador [Paul] Bremer made the decision that there were Baathists in certain roles who should not be there and therefore published the edicts concerning participation by former Baathists in the government and, I think, justly remove them. This does produce a situation however, in which, in certain roles, there's a dearth of talent because so many of the people who were trained for these positions are not available for them because of the political roles that they played. We need to find new blood and move them into these positions as quickly as possible.

Host: Well, Haydar Hamdani, how does the U.S. move forward quickly with giving greater responsibility and roles for security to Iraqis without running into this problem without giving power to people who were perhaps complicit in crimes of the former regime?

Hamdani: There is a lot of people who are eager to take power. Not especially the remnant of the regime, or people who have associated with the Baath party, but there [are] so many people who they can depend upon, train [to have] a police force. There [are] so many people from my understanding who are willing to join the police force and also to join the military. We saw last week so many people who are waiting in line to register to be in the military. So this is how we can do the job [correctly] especially from the American view. They have to join the Iraqis and make them feel that [it] is their country. The Americans are not occupying the country. They have to share power with them to have a sense of understanding between the people of Iraq and the American and allied forces. Security is the main issue. You see all the people talking about the U.S. State Department and the Defense Department. They're all talking about, "We have to find the solution quickly. Otherwise, we will [not] have a good environment in Iraq."

Host: Well, Ahmed Al-Rahim, we've been taking about the security situation. What about the political situation? How are the efforts to involve Iraqis in the political level, both at the city level and at the national level with the governing council -- how is that going in Iraq?

Al-Rahim: Well, it's still early, but it seems to be going well. One thing that I think that is good is that Iraqi politicians now are beginning to assert themselves. If you remember, initially Ambassador Bremer was interested in having an advisory council. Very soon that changed to a political advisory council of some sort, and then the governing council with executive and judicial powers. So, Iraqi politicians now are no longer in opposition, are beginning to assert themselves. Very soon, they will be electing a seven-man presidential body that will run this council of twenty-five. It hasn't been voted on yet as far as I know, but it seems like that's the body that's going to be ruling this council and Iraq.

Host: Mr. Ward, [are] the U-S coalition forces and the civilian authority -- are they making enough room for the Iraqi political institutions to be growing at this point?

Ward: Well, I think they are. I think they're taking steps in the right direction, as the professor has pointed out. Initially, the coalition needed to perform certain functions. They weren't perhaps, willing enough to turn over a governing role to the Iraqis. The Iraqis at the national role, have asserted themselves to do that. But I think also, there's the local equation, because democracy, in most countries, grows from the grass roots [upwards]. Here, I think at the local level, the forces are beginning to step away from the situation to allow governing councils in the cities and towns to take responsibility, and in some cases to allow Iraqi police to take care of the security situation in towns and cities. I hope we'll see more of that as the security situation allows, because, as others have pointed out of course, security, and the lack thereof is the main problem right now in Iraq.

Host: Well, Haydar Hamdani, Mr. Ward talks about handing off some power to local city councils and even some policing power. Where has that been most effective?

Hamdani: That's been effective especially in the south. The city of Nasiriyah, the third or the fourth largest city in Iraq -- they are ruling themselves, and they have stable cities. The food distribution is very good, and people are feeling quite [safe]. They're walking around. They're going on their business. This could be an example. Also, we have another city. We have Kirkuk. There is a lot of people who said, "Oh, we're going to have a civil war in Kirkuk," because of the ethnicity: Kurds, Arabs, Turcoman, and Christian. Now Kirkuk is a very wonderful city. The people are living together. [There is] no fighting, and they are ruling themselves, so this is where we have to look at. In Baghdad, Baghdad is [a] different city. It has more than five millions living there. I want to mention this. I want to emphasize this. We have people coming from outside, and American forces need to close the border. We have people coming.

[simultaneously]

Host: This is from outside Iraq, not from outside Baghdad?

Hamdani: Outside Iraq, no, I'm saying outside Iraq, from the [western] border: Jordan [and] Saudi Arabia. There [are] people coming inside. I've seen so many reports and I've written about it actually. A report on this is that a group called Jemaah Salafia who are inside Iraq now who are calling for the jihad to kill the Americans and also to kill the Iraqis who help the Americans. So this is a very important issue right now. If we leave the ground not guarded, we're going to have a problem, especially in the [western] side of Iraq -- in the towns of Fallujah, Ramadi. This is the breeding ground for these terrorist groups.

Host: Ahmed Al-Rahim, how serious is that problem of fighters from outside Iraq coming in, on terrorist groups?

Al-Rahim: Well, I can speak of the south. I've had some experience in Faid and Basra. In Basra, for example, you've got radical Shiites coming in who have basically grown up in Iran and are importing a kind of Shia radicalism. They've killed a number of Christian liquor shop owners. They've threatened a number of Christian business owners there. This is something that many Iraqis in Basra find -- they find it unacceptable. This is not the religious tradition that we've inherited. We've lived side by side with the Christians. This kind of extremism is coming in, and certainly I think that as far as what is called the Sunni triangle, Fallujah, Ramadi, and Tikrit, this area, which sometimes extends to Mosul depending on the activity there, this area is being radicalized. You also have to know that a lot of elements there are former Baath party elements. What they're doing is they're using Islamic symbolism for their cause, just as Saddam did by putting "God is great," up there on the flag, [building] the large mosques that he has built here in Baghdad. He has used religious symbolism to further his cause. So the same thing is happening now in these areas. Certainly I think Wakhabi elements have some influence. In some ways, Saudi Arabia looks at the minority, the Sunni minority in Iraq, as the last stronghold of Sunni Islam in the east, with Iran being Shiite, and so on. So, a lot of money does come in from these radical groups within Saudi Arabia and other parts of the Gulf, and that is something really to be concerned about for the future of Iraq.

Host: George Ward, how are coalition forces and the civilian authority trying to deal with the issue of foreign fighters coming in?

Ward: Well, I think they're trying to deal with it at probably three levels: first, military combating the remnants of the Saddam regime who were in some cases, I gather, working in concert with foreigners; secondly, they are trying to provide better security for routes so that the foreigners coming in from outside along with criminals and holdouts from the last regime will not so easily harass travelers and aid workers as they have in the recent days; and then finally, putting Iraqi police on the streets along with other Iraqi security forces to provide security for Iraqis. That has to be our goal at the end of the day.

Host: Well Haydar Hamdani, Mr. Al-Rahim talks about the extent to which there is an effort to make this a religious conflict by using symbolism of Islam or bringing in an extreme version of Islam from Iran. To what extent does the Shiite part of Iraq have Shiite leaders joined in trying to build political institutions that are democratic and working with the Americans, and to what extent have they taken up a position in opposition to the Americans?

Hamdani: Yes, we have so many people in Iraq in the Shia part who are willing to work with the Americans in trying to build democratic institutions. One example is Muhammad Sayed Bahr al Ulum. He's the Shiite leader, but he's very moderate, and he wants to build a democratic Iraq. We have another person who was assassinated, unfortunately, by groups, unknown groups -- we don't know. His name is Abdul Majid al-Khoei, [and] I'm sure you guys remember that guy. He was killed by -- I don't know who killed him exactly -- but we do have some forces inside Iraq or groups who are not willing to work towards democracy. These groups, we need to contain them. We need to communicate with them. We need to see what they want to do inside Iraq. In the larger scale, we have so many Iraqis in the Shia community who are willing to work with the allied forces and who want to rebuild a democratic system. So really, we don't have that problem and I've seen people talking about how there are some groups who are entering Iraq from Iran who try to stir up the place in the south, and there are some, but not a lot. I think the American forces are watching these guys, [especially] on the border, not allowing people to enter Iraq. There [are] some groups, you know, they're going to work and do this kind of [activity], but it needs a little bit of time.

Host: Ahmed Al-Rahim, you spoke about the efforts coming from Iran to radicalize the Shiite population. What's your sense of the extent to which the Shiite population and Shiite leaders are willing to work with the coalition in building new institutions for Iraq?

Al-Rahim: The situation of the Shiites is very complex. It [has] Muqtada al-Sadr, who as a young man was very radical. He has spoken out against the Americans and not recognized the governing council. He has radicalized a lot of the young men in Najaf. There were demonstrations four or five days ago there. There have been demonstrations in Basra. Part of the problem, and I talked to a religious cleric the other day, "What do you think about the radicalization of the Shiites in Najaf and other places?" His response was very interesting. He said, "I've been preaching to Shiites my whole life. They're not specially religious." My sense is that once jobs come in, once tools are open, all this will dissipate. I think that is true. I think that what the coalition needs to be doing, and they are starting to do it in Najaf and other places, is providing more jobs, getting these young men off the streets, getting them [involved] in rebuilding Iraq, getting them involved within the police force, within the army. These are some of the steps they can take to lessen some of this radicalism. Now, another example is [Ayatollah Ali] Sistani who represents traditional Shia learning and he's generally been very apolitical. He has not really issued any statements one way or the other. One thing I think is very important. One reason that he does that is because Shiism has been very apolitical historically for a very long time certainly from the eighteenth century onward. Sistani represents that tradition. But one thing that he does need to do is, he needs to ask Shiites to get involved in the political process. He himself doesn't have to get involved in the political process. He needs to take this opportunity.

[simultaneous talking]

Host: I'm afraid that's going to have to be the last word. That's all the time we have for today. I'd like to thank my guests: George F. Ward of the United States Institute for Peace; Haydar Hamdani, an Iraqi-American journalist and joining us by phone from Baghdad: Ahmed Al-Rahim of Harvard University. Before we go, I'd like to invite you to send us your questions or comments. You can e-mail them to Ontheline@ibb.gov For On the Line, I'm Eric Felten.