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20 October 2002

Transcript: Secretary of State Colin Powell on Fox News Sunday

(Secretary of State discusses Iraq, North Korea in Oct. 20 interview)
(3040)
Following is a transcript of an interview of Secretary of State Colin
Powell October 20 on Fox News Sunday, in which he discussed the Iraq
and North Korea issues:
(begin transcript)
Interview on Fox News Sunday with Tony Snow and Brit Hume
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Washington, DC
October 20, 2002
MR. SNOW: Here with us to discuss these issues is Secretary of State
Colin Powell. Also here Brit Hume, Washington managing editor of Fox
News.
First question, based on local developments here in Washington. There
have been a series of sniper shootings. Is it conceivable that
al-Qaida could be involved in this?
SECRETARY POWELL: Obviously it's conceivable, but I have seen no
evidence to tie this terrible series of attacks in the Washington area
to al-Qaida. I think we're looking for every possible connection, but
so far I have not seen anything that does tie it to al-Qaida.
MR. SNOW: Another big development this week. It was reported in the
American press -- and you've known this for some time -- North Korea
is developing a nuclear weapons program. First, do we think they now
have nuclear weapons?
SECRETARY POWELL: It has been our best estimate that they may have one
or two nuclear weapons, based on earlier developments, and that's been
the considered view of the intelligence community for some time. But
what's happened now is we have discovered that they have started to
move in another direction, to enrich uranium, a program that they've
been working on for the last four or five years, back to the previous
administration.
We only were able to discover this in recent months and we put the
question to them, we put the charge before them when Assistant
Secretary Kelly went to Pyongyang a few weeks ago. And lo and behold,
after first denying it, they admitted it the next day and said that
this nullifies the Agreed Framework that they had entered into with us
in 1994.
MR. SNOW: They said it nullified the agreement?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
MR. SNOW: Well, so we are now  -- 
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes, and their basis of saying that, they are
blaming us for what they are doing. And then they said, well, it was
the Bush Administration that put us in the "axis of evil." Assistant
Secretary Kelly pointed out to them, you had begun this enriched
uranium program in the Clinton Administration, not the Bush
administration. And that kind of blew their argument away, but they
said it nullified the agreement, so an agreement between two parties,
one of whom says it's nullified, makes it sort of a nullified
agreement.
Now, what we do in response remains to be seen because it just doesn't
affect North Korea and the United States; it affects Japan, South
Korea, China and Russia. So we're working with all of our friends and
allies to see how to go forward.
MR. SNOW: Will we suspend oil shipments?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we're looking at all of the things that come
out of the Agreed Framework -- oil shipments, light water reactors,
the Korean Energy Development Organization. All of these things are
now going to be looked at. But we're going to do it in a deliberate,
sensible way, working with our friends and allies in a -- how shall I
put this? -- multilateral way.
MR. SNOW: So, having done that, at this point we're going to suspect
all those things as we think about it?
SECRETARY POWELL: No, we're going to look at all of them and see what
makes sense to suspend and what makes sense to just keep considering
awhile. We really want to do it in concern with our friends and allies
and not start taking immediate precipitous steps because there are
some very sensitive issues here. For example, we are monitoring their
plutonium stockpiles and we want to keep monitoring those stockpiles
and we want the International Atomic Energy Administration to keep
doing it as well.
So we're going to move deliberately, we're going to move carefully and
examine all of our options and do it in concert with our friends and
allies.
MR. SNOW: Some Members of Congress have been complaining that they
were not consulted on this. Were Members of Congress briefed on the
progress of the development program in North Korea prior to this?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes. We saw the intelligence in early July. We
looked at the intelligence in the course of July, through August. I
started to have some preliminary conversations with some of my
overseas colleagues, the Russians and the Chinese, to warn them that
there was something coming. And then beginning in early September,
about the 10th of September, we began congressional consultations,
both sides of the aisle, and made sure that Members of Congress were
aware that we had information that the Koreans were now enriching
uranium again or getting the technology to enrich uranium.
After Assistant Secretary Kelly went to Pyongyang, came back with this
blockbuster news that they admitted it, we began another series of
consultations, and those consultations were just starting when the
whole story broke open.
The CIA had also been up on the Hill, has also been up on the Hill
briefing Members of Congress about these developments.
MR. HUME: Mr. Secretary, the accusation has been made that what you
now call the blockbuster news of their acknowledgment of this was
withheld so that it would not come until after the vote on an Iraq war
resolution.
SECRETARY POWELL: No, not at all. I mean, why would we have withheld
it because of that? I mean, I think if anything it reinforces our need
to respond to these kinds of challenges. So I think it is not an
accurate charge.
MR. HUME: Well, did we know it before the Iraq vote and not tell them?
SECRETARY POWELL: It doesn't make any difference whether we knew it or
not; we did not use this knowledge in any way to either assist us with
an Iraq vote or not assist us with an Iraq vote. We had no
conversation at all during that roughly ten-day period where we said,
"How will this affect the vote in the Congress?" It was a separate
issue of enormous importance and gravity, and no politics were being
played with it.
MR. HUME: We appear to be near, at the U.N., an agreement on passage
of a resolution on Iraq. But the confident signals that have been
coming from Washington and some of diplomats at the U.N. seem, at
least on the surface, to be contradicted by comments from other
diplomats, France and others. What is going on here?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, it's the U.N. at work: 15 sovereign nations in
the Security Council who are trying to move forward on a particular
issue. We have had very productive conversations over the last several
days with some of our Security Council colleagues, and early this week
we will be presenting a resolution that contains all the elements we
believe should be in such a resolution, and as a result of discussions
with the French and the British and the Russians and the Chinese and
others, I think it's a resolution that will draw good support from the
Security Council.
But there's still a ways to go. Once you put a resolution down, then
everybody gets to comment on it, and there will be some tough debates
ahead. But it will be a resolution, I believe, that will clearly lay
out the violations of Saddam Hussein, the fact that we need a very new
and tough inspection regime, and the fact that there will have to be
consequences that flow from any continued violation on the part of
Saddam Hussein of the inspection regime.
MR. HUME: Do you have the agreement already that you need from the
Permanent 5 members of the U.N. Security Council on those provisions
you just spoke of?
SECRETARY POWELL: They haven't all seen every element of it, and
that's what we will do early this week, and then the discussion will
begin.
MR. HUME: Well, let's talk about just for a moment on the -- the issue
of inspections seems to be basically noncontroversial in terms of
everybody wants that.
SECRETARY POWELL: Everybody wants that.
MR. HUME: What about the issue of consequences now?
SECRETARY POWELL: The issue of consequences, there are different
points of view. The point of view we hold is that there have to be
consequences, and we believe that the President of the United States
has all the authority he needs now and this new resolution will in no
way diminish his authority if he feels he has to act with like-minded
nations to deal with continued Iraqi violations.
MR. HUME: What about the issue of one resolution versus two?
SECRETARY POWELL: Initially, there will be one resolution. That is
what we are supporting. And we believe that that one resolution will
give the President what he needs and in no way diminishes his
authority.
Now, will that one resolution be sufficient to get all other members
to join in an effort, if an effort is needed at this time? That
remains to be seen. There is no way to keep other members of the
Security Council from going before the Council and asking for a
discussion, asking for a debate and asking for other resolutions. But
right now, we are focusing on this one resolution.
MR. HUME: I'm sorry, just one question. It comes down to this: We
believe that the one resolution you now feel confident you will get,
specifying inspections and consequences, would be sufficient for the
President to act, and you have no objection if there are further
resolutions?
SECRETARY POWELL: I can't object because I don't know what further
resolutions might be. But the resolution I hope will come out of the
Security Council will lay out the indictment, will put in place a new,
tough, take-it-or-leave-it inspection regime for Saddam Hussein, and
will make it clear that consequences will flow from continued
violation. How those consequences will flow remains to be seen with
respect to the United States and other like-minded nations who, in the
presence of continued violations on the part of the Iraqis, believe
they will have all the authority necessary if they decide to act,
whether other members of the body choose to act with us at that time
remains to be seen.
MR. SNOW: All right, let's run through this quickly, then. Completely
open inspections, no conditions. That's an absolute must.
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
MR. SNOW: Secondly, there are going to be timetables.
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
MR. SNOW: And how soon must Iraq (a) provide a full accounting of what
it has and (b) permit unconditional searches?
SECRETARY POWELL: Tony, I would rather that come out of the
negotiation process with the Security Council members this week,
rather than me prejudge what they might decide.
MR. SNOW: Also, is it your view that the U.N. Charter, if Iraq is
found in "material breach" of previous resolutions, already grants you
the authority to use force, and that is the reason why you don't need
a second resolution?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think that argument can be made, and we'll be
making that argument with our friends. In fact, Iraq has been in
violation of these many resolutions for a period of 11 years. And the
President, acting in his authority as Commander-in-Chief, and
consistent with the United Nations Charter, and especially empowered
by the congressional resolution last week that says work with the
United Nations, try to get a tough resolution, and you can operate
within the United Nations framework if military action is required and
it is approved by the United Nations; but, if the United Nations, the
Security Council, in the presence of violations, is not willing to
then authorize military force, you, Mr. President, have the authority
you need under our Constitutional and in accordance with our laws, and
under self-defense aspects of the U.N. Charter, to take military
action with like-minded nations.
So if it comes to military action, it could be done one of two ways:
the United States, with like-minded nations, taking it -- and we
believe all the authority that is necessary for us to do so -- or with
all other nations as part of a U.N. resolution.
MR. SNOW: On that thing, let me double back quickly to North Korea.
Why is Kim Jong-il less of a threat than Saddam Hussein?
SECRETARY POWELL: Kim Jong-il is a threat in his own right, and I
don't think we have to compare him to Saddam Hussein, and it's not a
good comparison anyway. Saddam Hussein, in recent years, has invaded
two of his neighbors. He has used these kinds of weapons of mass
destruction against his own people as well as his neighbors. He has
resources available to him. It's a very wealthy little country.
They've misspent their wealth, but it is a very wealthy little
country.
And Korea is an isolated country with no wealth, with a broken
economy, a broken society, desperately in need, and with neighbors who
are not going to be happy with this new development.
And so there are different ways to approach North Korea, but it is
dangerous and Iraq is dangerous.
MR. SNOW: Bill Clinton contemplated using force against North Korea,
did not. Is that still an option?
SECRETARY POWELL: It was always an option, but at the moment we don't
see that that is something that is really a real and present problem
for us.
MR. HUME: In this meeting with Assistant Secretary Kelly, the North
Korean authorities were described as having been almost belligerent in
their acknowledgement and added the acknowledgement about their
weapons program the statement that they had other weapons, other
serious weapons. What do we believe those other weapons to be?
SECRETARY POWELL: Don't know what they were talking about. It might --
MR. SNOW: What do you think?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I don't want to speculate because that's all
it would be is pure speculation. They have not repeated that statement
in any other statements that they have made since then. So whether
they were talking about some of their missile programs or whether they
were talking about other weapons of mass destruction or whether they
were just making bold statements remains to be seen. But we take them
seriously and we will watch carefully and watch their actions.
And what's interesting in this instance is that immediately the
Japanese, the South Koreans, the Russians and the Chinese are
communicating to North Korea about the seriousness of this matter.
There's a South Korean delegation in Pyongyang now. There will be
meetings between the Japanese and the North Koreans in Kuala Lumpur at
the end of next week. And the Japanese have said, you know, this
matter has to be resolved; we cannot go forward with the kind of
normalization talks we were thinking of in the presence of this kind
of situation. And the idea that there are pots of money waiting for
you to improve your economy or help you rescue this dying society in
the presence of this kind of situation or this kind of weapon
technology is out of the question.
MR. SNOW: Sir, very quickly, I'd like to get your reaction to two
quotes. One is from our next guest, Senate Majority Leader Tom
Daschle. He is talking about the Bush Administration foreign policy.
He says, "I don't know if we've ever seen a more precipitous drop in
international stature and public opinion with regard to this country
as we have in the last two years."
Your reaction?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I would disagree with Senator Daschle. I think
the United States is seen as a nation that believes in principles,
that we will act on our principles, we will work in concern with our
friends and allies around the world, and where there is a particular
issue where we can't get consensus but it is in our interest to act,
we will act. And I think that we are showing leadership in this world,
we are showing the principled use of our economic strength, our moral
strength, as well as our military strength.
MR. SNOW: Secondly, a man you have described as your friend, Harry
Belafonte, has said a series of things about you. I'm not going to put
up all the quotes, but at one point he compared you to a house slave.
Then he said he didn't really mean that, merely that you were serving
the master. And then later on, here it is: "There's an old saying in
the days of slavery. There are those slaves who lived on the
plantation and there were those slaves who lived in the house. You got
the privilege of living in the house if you served the master, and
Colin Powell was permitted to come into the house of the master."
He later has said that he doesn't think that you've comported yourself
properly. You say he's a friend, but isn't he acting a bit like an
idiot?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think it's unfortunate that Harry found it
necessary to use that kind of a reference. I don't know what reference
he would use to white cabinet officers who were in the house of the
master. I'm serving my nation and I'm serving this President, my
President, our President, and I'm very happy to do so.
Harry has every right to attack my politics, attack my policies. He
can attack the administration's policies. But we have advanced in this
nation where you shouldn't have to rest it on this kind of reference.
That should have been left in the past. It isn't appropriate and it's
an unfortunate situation that Harry chose to use this kind of
characterization.
MR. SNOW: Secretary of State Colin Powell, thanks for joining us.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)