Ambassador Hamdoon's appearance on Larry King Live on December 17, 1998 - 9:00 p.m.
KING: -- the Iraqi ambassador to the United Nations, Nizar Hamdoon. He joins us at the
U.N. What is it like to -- in this surreal world, to see your country being
bombed? What does that feel like to watch that?
NIZAR HAMDOON, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: It's very bad,
Larry, obviously, but what's, I think, is worse is to listen to some statements
that try to deceive the -- even the American people, I would say. I was
listening to what Mr. Berger was saying earlier on this show when he
mentioned that they were after the WMD, and to get rid of them in those
--
all those military campaigns.
What are the WMD? I mean, they are biological and chemical stuff.
Obviously, if you hit someplace targeting such stuff, you expect emanating
vapors and deadly gases. This has not happened. I don't think it will happen.
So where is the proof that they are really hitting mass destruction weapons?
KING: So in your opinion, then, what is this all about? If it's not to
take out
places that they believe there is such weapons, what do you think it is?
HAMDOON: I think it's the question of weakening the government. I mean,
they have come publicly on this and saying that they are after the government
in Baghdad and that they want to topple, and that they have funded the
so-called opposition in Iraq. That's the political scheme, Larry.
I don't think it's a question of those weapons. They know for sure that
there
is no more such weapons in the whole country of Iraq.
KING: OK, if all of that's true, and a lot of Americans are asking this
and it's
very fair, Mr. Ambassador, since you got nothing to hide -- admittedly
you
have your rights to privacy and every person should respect that, but you're
in the position where the superpower and the U.N.'s coming there to
inspect. You have nothing to hide. Open up everything; they'll be gone
in a
month.
HAMDOON: Well, we have opened up and they have had about 400 visits,
but obviously you cannot -- I mean, with the tight modality that they have,
you cannot ensure that there could no tensions and little delays here and
there. But they're coming with the pretext to try to create a crisis, to
try to
create tensions, so things happen. But they don't mention about the 400
minus two or three incidents; but they only focus on one or to five little
incidents about little papers here and there.
KING: You're saying, then, that the U.N. team was not interested in finding
out the truth? Wasn't interested in seeing everything and clearing you?
HAMDOON: I think that the U.N. team, based on the experience of Mr.
Scott Ritter before, and of what Mr. Butler has been ordering his team,
is to
try to reach a deadlock -- is to reach an impasse, so that they come back
and try to tell the Security Council that the Iraqis were not cooperating,
you
see?
KING: Mr. Berger just told us there's nothing your country can do to stop
this...
HAMDOON: This is exactly...
KING: ... short of surrender, I guess, there's nothing you can do. What,
then, do you do?
HAMDOON: Sorry, Larry. That was the policy for the last few years, not
only the last few days. The U.S. has always been stating that, regardless
of
what Iraq does, sanctions are not going to be lifted, you see? And that's
the
essence of the American policy, which has been now reflected in this use
of
the overwhelming military power. It's not war, because there are no warring
parties. Iraq is doing nothing except taking the hits. It's the United
States'
overwhelming military power striking.
KING: And since that is a truism, where, Mr. Ambassador, does it end?
HAMDOON: I have no idea. You have to ask Washington. It's not in Iraq
capacity. Iraq was not after this type of activities. Nor I will say that
the
situation before these strikes were calm and nice for the Iraqis. People
were
being killed by the sanctions, but obviously, they were not on the TV
screens. Christiane Amanpour was not on top of the building watching
people die of sanctions. Now it has been displayed in this type of firework,
and I hope that the Americans do understand that these are not really
fireworks, but they are killing people, killing children, and making all
type of
terror and horror.
KING: Have you been in touch with Saddam Hussein recently today?
HAMDOON: No.
KING: When was the last time you did speak?
HAMDOON: Well, I was in touch with him when I was in Baghdad last
August, but I keep in touch with the ministry in Baghdad and with other
high-level officials.
KING: What have they told you about casualties? Do you know any more
than what has been reported?
HAMDOON: I have not gotten any details, but they're talking about
massive casualties.
KING: What's happening with Kofi Annan and the U.N. which seemed to
put these things off in the past, and now seem to not be in the picture?
HAMDOON: Well, Kofi Annan and the rest of the Security Council have
been left in the cold. And he was almost saying that explicitly in his
recent
statement yesterday, and the day before, that he is sad, that things are
out of
control, that he doesn't think that the Security Council resolutions authorized
nobody to use force instead of diplomacy, and instead of peaceful means,
you see?
KING: Do you believe, Mr. Ambassador -- do you believe that the
president, because of his own political difficulties, used Iraq as a scapegoat?
HAMDOON: I don't address that aspect, and I don't care about it really.
All what care about is that this practice that the U.S. is doing is in
violation of
the whole international law, and codes, and in violation of the U.N. Charter.
KING: And you plan no attacks back of any kind?
HAMDOON: Well, I...
KING: You're just going to be in the defensive mode until we say -- or
the
United States, rather, says it's over?
HAMDOON: I don't think that Iraq really has any intentions to threaten
nobody, neither in the region or abroad, and we have declared that, and
we
have declared that we have no long-range missiles, no mass destruction
weapons at all. So Iraq is really taking a defensive stand on this, because
that's the only thing that we could do.
KING: The ambassador will remain with us. When we come back, we'll be
joined by Wolf -- Wolf Blitzer and Christiane Amanpour. Still to come:
Senator Fred Thompson, Senator Carl Levin, John Sununu; we'll have the
British ambassador to the United States here. We'll also talk with the
rear
admiral who's in command of the whole Enterprise battle group in the area.
And we'll be here tomorrow night in the middle of the debate over
impeachment -- Senator Feinstein, Congressman Hamilton. We'll be live on
Saturday night too. We'll be right back.
KING: We're back on LARRY KING LIVE.
Bernie and Judy have a special at the top of the hour.
We have Nizar Hamdoon, the Iraqi ambassador to the U.N. He is at the
U.N. We have in Baghdad Christiane Amanpour, our international
correspondent; and we have at the White House, Wolf Blitzer, our senior
White House correspondent.
Wolf, Mr. Hamdoon has commented about Mr. Berger's comment that
there is no fait accompli here. Mr. Berger has said there's nothing Iraq
can
do. So this just plays through, right?
WOLF BLITZER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Sammy Berger feels badly
burned. A month ago, he was among those advisers, almost the sole voice
that encouraged President Clinton at the last minute to abort that missile
attack, that air strike on November 15th. And at that time, they said if
the
Iraqis were to comply completely -- unfettered, complete inspections
according to what Richard Butler then there would be no strike. Richard
Butler came back and reported to the U.N. Security Council that there were
problems; they weren't getting the access they thought they were going
to get
and immediately President Clinton gave the order within 24 hours to strike.
KING: So short of unconditional surrender there's no end until we say it's
over, right -- until the United States says it's over?
BLITZER: It's going to continue at least through Saturday, maybe through
Sunday. They're hoping to get a complete bomb damage assessment by the
weekend, Monday at the latest and then make a decision whether to
suspend the air strikes. Remember Ramadan begins on Saturday which is
the Islamic holy month, and they'd like to wrap it if they can by then,
but
there's no guarantee they will.
KING: Christiane what's the reading as of this second? Oh, I hear the
prayer chant again, right?
AMANPOUR: The early morning call to prayer has started, but at the same
time, just before we came on air, a new air raid warning, an air raid siren
went on again, indicating perhaps further danger for the people, and
indicating perhaps more military activity on the horizon. Can I ask
Ambassador Hamdoon a question?
KING: You sure may.
AMANPOUR: Ambassador Hamdoon, you said that contrary to what the
U.S. is saying this is not about weapons of mass destruction, rather you
believe these air strikes are designed by the United States to weaken the
government of Iraq. Do you think these air strikes on military targets,
on
Republican guards, on special security organizations -- will that, can
that
weaken government of Iraq?
HAMDOON: Well, obviously, this weakens the infrastructure of the country
be it in the conventional military or in civilian areas. But what I am
stressing
here is that if there were deputy WMD's, then vapors and gases -- deadly
ones would have been emanating and would be threatening the population,
but now that we're not having such thing means that there is no such thing
as
WMD in the places they are hitting.
KING: So what is the -- what are they hitting?
HAMDOON: They want to weaken the government in order to find a path
for some agents to take over, which I don't think will be happening, but
that
would be costing the Iraqi population all the suffering we're seeing.
KING: We'll be right back. Wolf Blitzer may have a question as well. This
is
LARRY KING LIVE.
Wolf Blitzer, do you have a question for the ambassador?
BLITZER: Sure. Mr. Ambassador, what happened over this past month --
remember that letter that you submitted to the United Nations, to Kofi
Annan, from Tariq Aziz promising complete, unfettered access?
Richard Butler sent the inspectors back in. All of the sudden he said that
there wasn't compliance, and now we're in the midst of covering this air
strike.
What exactly was the issue? Where did you refuse to allow those inspectors
to visit?
HAMDOON: It was one incident, probably one or two. One with a foreign
organization that is in Baghdad. And we told them if you could agree with
them, it's all right with us. The second one was at party headquarters,
which
nobody knows. I mean, nobody keeps any secrets or secret documentation
over there.
KING: So why didn't you -- excuse me...
HAMDOON: We asked them for a written request just to put it in writing
that they want to visit that place. They refused.
And in a few minutes, they decided to leave that spot, and that's it. That
was
one out of 400 visits, Larry, during the three weeks, you see. KING: Are
you telling -- you're saying that on that small issue -- put it in writing;
no, we
won't -- we're bombing -- the United States -- forgive me for saying the
we...
HAMDOON: Exactly, that was...
KING: ... the United States is bombing Iraq?
HAMDOON: Exactly, that was it. In addition to one paper they wanted to
get, which we told them, come sit with us, discuss it, take what's relevant
with the presence of the Security Council, secretary- general representative.
They did not respond to that.
KING: Does Mr. Butler, Wolf, have the complete confidence of the United
States government?
BLITZER: He has the absolute confidence of the U.S. government. He does
not have the complete confidence of other governments, the Russian
government, the Chinese government, I think the French government,
certainly the Iraqi government. He doesn't have their confidence.
But the U.S. government strongly supports Ambassador Butler.
KING: So a neutral observer judges what? This is a "he says, she says,"
correct?
BLITZER: But it's not just Ambassador Butler. He has an international team
of weapons inspectors who report to him and then he submits the report
to
the U.N. Security Council.
The argument he makes and the U.S. government makes is that a month ago
the Iraqi government promised unfettered, complete access -- including
surprise inspections. They argued that they didn't have to get anything
in
writing. They could go any place they wanted without any questions asked,
and that sparked this latest confrontation.
KING: Mr. Ambassador, have you been given Mr. Butler's full report?
HAMDOON: Pardon me?
KING: Have you seen his full report?
HAMDOON: Yes, of course.
KING: And you disagree with what he says.
HAMDOON: Yes, of course -- plus all distortion of facts and realities that
happened on the ground, you see?
KING: How, Christiane, are the people of Iraq that you, I guess, see during
the day there, all the time? How are they reacting to all of this? Is there
anger, dismay, what?
AMANPOUR: Yes. I mean, there is a certain amount of anger, obviously.
I mean, I don't think you can underestimate just how much the people of
Iraq have suffered over the last eight years.
These punishing sanctions that are designed to punish the government and
to
force the government into compliance have only really hurt the people and
hurt them very much indeed. There is a lingering resentment, obviously,
against those whom they believe are responsible for -- for this kind of
hardship that they are undergoing.
But if I was to hazard and be very bold here and speculate, I would say
that
if they thought that this kind of bombing was going to finally rid them
of their
agony -- whether it's to get rid of the regime, whether it's to end the
sanctions, whether it's to force a closure to these eight years -- perhaps
they
would tolerate it. But it seems simply to go on and on and on with no
foreclosure to the people of Iraq. Despite whatever policy the United States
might have, the Iraqis may have, for the people, it simply doesn't end.
KING: More with our guests, and then we'll meet our United States
senators and others right after this. Don't go away.
KING: We're going to spend some remaining moments in this portion with
Christiane Amanpour our CNN international correspondent; she is in
Baghdad. And even though she'll be leaving us, if anything major occurs,
within the next half hour she'll tell us and we'll go right back to her.
Also with
us in this portion is Wolf Blitzer, CNN's senior White House correspondent.
He has been traveling a lot -- went with the president to the Middle East
and
the ambassador to the United Nations, Nizar Hamdoon. Mr. Ambassador,
you leave your post on January 17th, is that right?
HAMDOON: Right.
KING: Going where?
HAMDOON: Back to Baghdad to the foreign ministry.
KING: Will you go to another country or are you...
HAMDOON: No, I think I'll be serving for the next period in Baghdad in
the ministry.
KING: What are your expect -- what are your hopes? What do you think is
going to happen?
HAMDOON: I think the hope of all the population of Iraq right now and
has been always during the last few years is to have those sanctions, those
killing sanctions to come to an end and then we could have cooperative
relations; the monitoring could stay in place. But we're not even being
given
that incentive to try to be on a better footing.
KING: Do you have family there? HAMDOON: Yes, of course.
KING: Wolf, what -- what do they have to do? Now, Mr. Berger says
there's nothing they can do. Obviously it's got to stop some time -- the
United States is not going to wipe them off the face of the earth. Where
does
this go?
BLITZER: I think in the short term there isn't anything that the Iraqis
can do.
This military strike is going to continue for the next few days. The official
U.S. position -- the Clinton administration's position is that once the
Iraqis
fully comply with the inspectors and get a clean bill of health from Richard
Butler's team as well as the International Atomic Agency on the nuclear
front
and basically on the nuclear issues they do have pretty much a clean bill
of
health, then the United States and the other members of the U.N. Security
Council will begin to consider easing those sanctions. There are other
provisions, though, that they say Iraq will have to comply with including
returning prisoners of war to Kuwait and reparations, things like that.
The
bottom line is for all practical purposes it doesn't look like the U.S.
is going
to support easing those sanctions as long as Saddam Hussein is in power.
HAMDOON: Right.
KING: You agree with that, Mr. Ambassador.
HAMDOON: Absolutely. This has been the bottom line of the American
policy.
KING: Christiane, I know you don't like to take out crystal balls, but
let's
try. Where do you think all of this is going?
AMANPOUR: Well, who knows. Does anybody know? The real question
is what next? What then? What is the policy after this? First of all, in
terms of
weapons inspections, will UNSCOM even in a different guise, a different
form, will weapons inspections teams be allowed in Iraq after this kind
of
military intervention? If not, how do you monitor the weapons process here?
Has the United States policy changed from this kind of policy that it's
had to
now sort of watch- and-bomb policy? What exactly is happening? And
furthermore, what kind of change can be effected inside Iraq as the United
States has stated that it wishes it could? Is the opposition strong enough?
And all of those questions that are really big, big questions of policy,
of
ability, of will, and all of the above.
KING: To be continued. Mr. Ambassador, we thank you very much for
joining us and we look forward to a return visit -- Ambassador Nizar
Hamdoon.
HAMDOON: Thank you.
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