Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD)

DATE=06/20/2003

TYPE=ON THE LINE

NUMBER=1-01350

TITLE=PROTEST IN IRAN

INTERNET=Yes

EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY 619-0038

CONTENT=

THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

Host: Protests in Iran, Next, On the Line.

[music]

Host: For more than a week, students have taken to the streets of Tehran to protest Iran's oppressive clerical regime. They've chanted demands for freedom and democracy. The rallies have spread to half a dozen cities across the country, including Hamadan and Isfahan even though protesters have been attacked repeatedly by Islamic militias wielding chains and knives. U.S. President George W. Bush praised those standing for fundamental human rights saying, "This is the beginning of people expressing themselves towards a free Iran, which I think is positive." What are the prospects for freedom and democracy in Iran? I'll ask my guests: Roya Boroumand, co-founder of the Boroumand Foundation for the Promotion of Human Rights and Democracy in Iran; S. Rob Sobhani, adjunct professor of Government at Georgetown University; and joining us by telephone from London, Alirezah Nourizadeh, director of the Center for Arab-Iranian studies. Roya Boroumand, how significant have these protests been? How big have the protests been?

Boroumand: I think Mr. Nourizadeh might be in a better position to tell us. It's very hard to know. Several thousand people have been out; access to journalism is denied, and a lot of students are confined to the dormitories. It's very hard to know. Reports have varied [from] several thousands to tens of thousands. You know that there is traffic and that people are out there, blocking the streets. You know that students are inside and doing sit-ins and demonstrations. it's hard to know but many as far as we know because the actions of the authorities are very harsh.

Host: Rob Sobhani, how do these protests compare with [those] from last year and from 1999?

Sobhani: Certainly it seems to have gone towards more of a crescendo. Four years ago, they started, and with each year, students are getting bolder. As Roya [Bouromand] mentioned, the key element here is that, if you take the repressive elements of the regime out of the scenario, you could probably have five or six hundred thousand people eventually in the streets, and that's really the key here. [It isn't] the numbers now, because the numbers now, because those numbers are really not magnified as a result of the clerical regime's security forces.

Host: Alirezah Nourizadeh, are you there by phone?

Nourizadeh: Yes, and I completely agree with Mr. Sobhani as far as the number of protesters concerned. On the one hand, [there are] the students and then [there are] thousands of people coming to the street every night and showing their support, and they stand by the children. That's what has happened. When the Iranian regime [was] accusing the United States of intervening in Iranian politics, it's so funny that these people are not listening to the United States. When they heard about the children being beaten by vigilantes, I'm sorry, by Hezbollah and the others. So, it is in a way, spontaneous, but day by day, its becoming a huge demonstration everybody in Iran, even in the holy city of Qum.

Host: Roya Boroumond, how significant is this that the protest is not just in Tehran this time, but has spread to other cities?

Boroumand: It's significant because the discontent is all over the country, and thus the protest will spread. The students' protest is not a one-time occurrence. Over the past year and a half, there has been a gradual accumulation of anger of students in various cities. There have been communiqués expressing grievances, and, most importantly, students have always been very upset with the handling of their grievances by the authorities: not by only the hard-liners, but by the reforming government as well. In the face of contempt, they have been [conducting] sit-ins, [writing] letters, breaking windows, striking, and now they're out. Of course, people all over the country have been terrorized for two decades. So, it's normal that at some point, they start to protect their children who are on strike and are beaten.

Host: Rob Sobhani, you mentioned that these crowds would be larger were it not for the fear of the beatings that Roya mentions.

[simultaneous talking]

Sobhani: Absolutely.

Host: Exactly what's going on? Who's doing the beating?

Sobhani: Well, going back, fundamentally there's been a misperception that somehow the dynamic inside Iran has been between reformers and hard-liners. These protests prove that the dynamic inside Iran is between the people of Iran and the government of Iran, including Mr. Khatami, who is now being asked to resign. Should these vigilantes groups who are paid -- should these rent-a-thugs who are paid -- get out of the business of being thugs, you will see the mothers of these students, the fathers of these students, the brothers, and everyone [else] joining, and pretty soon, you will have a regime change and a revolution, albeit peacefully, because, [as] all polls indicate, the Iranian people want this to be a peaceful transition, not a bloody transition.

Host: Alirezah Nourizadeh, does that suggest the government has a big incentive to continue paying those rent-a-thugs?

Nourizadeh: Absolutely. I'm not saying the government is paying them. It's Mr. Khomenei and his office. They are responsible for these thugs. As Mrs. Khatami, [who] is an actual member of parliament from Iran, said yesterday quite bravely, these people are worse than Genghis Khan who attacked Iran, as they explained. They are beating not just the students, [but] the people, [and] the old men. Actually, I've spoken to grandfathers and grandmothers who were standing and watching their grandchildren [being] beaten by them and then they protest that they were beaten too. As Mr. Sobhani said, (please correct me), what we are seeing is that if these vigilantes go out, then perhaps millions and millions of the Iranian people would go to the streets to express their anxiety and anger towards the failure of Mr. Khatami to deliver the goods. He had promised the people that he was going to bring changes, but unfortunately, he couldn't because the other side is stronger than Mr. Khatami, and Mr. Khatami is not brave enough to rely on the people, come to them, and demand help and support.

Host: Roya Boroumand, where has Mr. Khatami been during these protests?

[simultaneous talking]

Boroumand: Mr. Khatami usually is notoriously absent when dissidents are mistreated, even including their own friends. That is not the point. I have to disagree with Mr. Nourizadeh because as I have read the students, and I've focused on the students because they are the only ones with access to some kind of communication with the outside world, through their web sites and associations. They have very much put hope in the reformists, because, of course, they don't want violence. The reason they want the regime change is because they're tired of violence. However, they also have noticed, looking at how the reforms that Mr. Khatami is promising have ended in the parliament and in the council of Guardians. Looking at how the radical reformists have used the student movement to push in their negotiations with the hard-liners but have failed to come to the defense of the students once they are arrested and tortured. How they have not followed truly the law on the press. How their demand of reform is very limited to what could get the reformers into the decision-making processes, but not people's participation into the political scene. So, they have understood and they have said and written that this is not a problem between hard-liners and reformers; this is a structural problem of the system of the constitution, and that is why they want the change of this constitution - a referendum on the nature of the regime. I always quote that because the students of the university are foremost gone. [During] the first day of university [classes] last year, they had a communique saying, "We are tired of this boring infighting between the factions of the ruling elite. What we should focus on is to change the man -- the human being -- with duty to the human being with rights. I think they are very mature [now].

Host: Well, Rob Sobhani, if not looking to the reformers led by Khatami, who are the leaders of the student movement? In the last protest, the government cracked and jailed a bunch of student leaders. Are there any leaders left, or is this somehow more spontaneous than being led?

Sobhani: One quick point about Mr. Khatami that is very important to address as well. Mr. Khatami has always had high praise for the late Ayatollah Khomenei. In all his speeches, he refers to the legacy of Mr. Khomenei. Keep in mind that Mr. Khomenei allowed thousands of young men to die on land mines. They were given the key to heaven, [but] they died.

Host: During the war against.?

Sobhani: During the war against Iraq. Mr. Khomeinei was responsible for the deaths of thousands and thousands of young men. Mr. Khatami, the quote un-quote moderate, [has been] singing the praises of Mr. Khomenei. So, I think the true character of Mr. Khatami is well known, and that's why these students [want] to go beyond Mr. Khatami. As to who is out there: should there be a leader to emerge from within or without, a man or a woman, which doesn't matter, whom the people trust, that would be the catalyst where you'll see far more protests. I think the reason why the protests have not grown is also because of a vacuum of leadership within the opposition, and if that person presents themselves and if the people trust that personality, there will be an acceleration of regime change.

Host: Alirezah Nourizadeh, do you think that the regime has succeeded in eliminating leadership from the students' groups?

Nourizadeh: No. Actually, I think that new leadership is emerging now, and we have people whom -- you know, I am fifty-three years old, and I've been myself active when I was a student. When I look at these people I really respect them. And I know how knowledgeable they are, how their word is much nicer than other words. We were imprisoned by ideology, but these people are not. And I just wanted to make a point when Ms. Boroumand mentioned something that she quite disagreed with me, but what I was trying to say, was that four years ago, in July 1999, the students still believed in Khatami and they thought he was going to bring changes. Now what we see, the students as well as other parts of the Iranian nation, they [are] past Khatami. They are not going to sit down and watch conservatives vetoing Mr. Khatami's bill for a little bit of reform in election law. No, they want more than that. They want democracy. And as both of your participants mentioned, the students are fed up, as well as the Iranian people. Fed up with this in-fighting between so-called reformists and the conservatives.

Host: Roya Boroumand, the regime keeps trying to say that the students protesting are "mercenaries" to use the word that Ayatollah Khomenei has used, for foreign powers. And they have later taken students that have been arrested and beaten and later put pictures of them in the newspaper with so-called "confessions" that they were tricked into protesting by foreign powers. How does that play in Iran, this claim that somehow the protests are organized by foreign powers?

Boroumand: Well that play of foreign powers and being an agent of foreign powers is very typical of any totalitarian regime, be it a religious totalitarian regime or a communist or a fascist. You know, there is always the fear of the outside and be it the Americans or be it the white Russians for the Soviet Union or the exiles for the French Revolution. It has always been the same. And it is a game in the terror. It has no significance. People inside Iran know that this is just a way for the regime to justify and to go after dissidents. And so, those televised confessions and those accusations never have a grip with the Iranian people. Probably, maybe one or two years after the revolution some of them still were under the illusion that some of these people might really be bad guys. But now it's just, unfortunately it does work with the outside world, where the regime always does this exchange and negotiations. And this has always a weight in the diplomatic relationship with the outside world, I think.

Host: Rob Sobhani, one way that has weighed in the U-S is there's a debate in the U-S as to how best to encourage the students by speaking up. There are those in the U-S who think that just merely gives the regime the opportunity to say that, "This is something being fomented by outside powers." What can the U-S do and how is that debate playing out in the U-S?

Sobhani: I think the fundamental point to keep in mind here is that any engagement of the government of Iran will only undermine the democracy movement that we're seeing unfold. Any engagement of the government of Iran undermines President Bush's very clear message that we stand for democracy, that we stand with the people of Iran against the government of Iran. And those in Washington who are advocating engagement, I think, see it in the narrow context of a guilt trip that somehow has been imposed on us because of U-S-Iran relations and failed to see the broad brush of U-S-Iran relations, which [was] a very good relationship that developed over the years until 1979. So I think we should go beyond a guilt trip that we've developed because of [the] events of 1953 probably, but more look towards the future, invest in the people of Iran, the women's groups, the youth, and engage in a policy of empowering the students as opposed to keeping ourselves somehow a hostage of history.

Host: Alireza Nourizadeh, do you believe that if the U-S engages with the regime in any kind of discussions that that undermines the student protestors?

Nourizadeh: Absolutely. Let me tell you something. It's in a way secret, but I should say it. In the past three or four weeks, whenever I have talked to people inside Iran, whether they were intellectuals, writers, my colleagues, journalists or students, even people inside the government and members of parliament. They all were asking me: "Are the Americans genuinely going to abandon this regime? Are they going to speak to them once again?" The people were worried. I can't explain to you how much the effect was of President Bush's show of solidarity and support for the students and for the Iranian people. And yesterday, when Mr. Jack Straw, the British Foreign Minister, said something which the people understood [meant] that he is supporting the Islamic regime, they were very upset. And I'm sure hundreds of letters were sent to Mr. Jack Straw to explain to him that his comment came at the wrong time. And there is another point which I would like to make in response to Iranian accusation of the United States and Iranians living abroad. I, myself, I know I am not the agent of any government and on my show I demanded the Iranian people to come out and support their children. They came. What I'm trying to say, the Americans, they didn't advise me to do this. I felt that this is my duty to do [this]. And the Iranian regime is intervening in any part of the world, from Burkina Faso to Argentina to Afghanistan to Iraq and they are then accusing the United States that they are, you know, stirring up the demonstrations of the people and intervening in Iranian politics.

Host: Roya Boroumand?

Boroumand: Yes. I think that that is very true that the only way human rights activists have to bring change in an authoritarian regime is to give visibility to the wrong that is happening there and to bring shame on those who do it. And the big effort of the authoritarian regime is to prevent the outside world to pinpoint the wrong and to bring shame on them. And that is because the only way they can keep the dissent quiet and demobilized is to say to them that the world doesn't care and that we're going to do what we want and no one will care. So, that is a psychological game that is also classical in the world. But, I also have an example where, in the mid-eighties, during the Iran-Iraq war, Shapour Bakhtiar, who was later assassinated by the thugs of the Iranian regime, called the population to come and demonstrate against the war. It was [nineteen] eighty-five I think. They did that through faxes. They sent thousands of faxes to Iran and people came out in thousands and thousands and thousands, in their cars and there was no reporting on the event. The B-B-C maybe said there were a few hundred people out or something like that. Several years later I had a couple of interviews with some people who had participated in the demonstration. And they told me, "We went out. Everybody was out. And from this place to this place, we couldn't move. Our relatives, friends, everybody was out. Then we went back home and listened to the radios and there was nothing on the radios. Then we knew that the foreign powers are behind the regime. So that's how, and we said: We're not going to go out anymore."

Host: Rob Sobhani, there have been protests in the streets, there's also been a remarkable letter in from some two-hundred and fifty intellectuals signed in Tehran in which they said that for the regime to claim that it's God's representative on earth is akin to blasphemy. It's a kind of heresy. How significant is that kind of protest?

Sobhani: There's no doubt that letters from intellectuals, from professors siding with the students, questioning the legitimacy of the supreme leader goes a long way. But once again, let's keep in mind that those letters and those protests from the parliament are all within the context as Roya mentioned, within the Islamic republic. They want to make sure the system survives because they have an economic stake in the survival of the system. The supporters of Mr. Khatami have an economic stake. The supporters of Mr. Khomenei have an economic stake. Mr. Rafsanjani has an economic stake and they all want to preserve their pie. They've been eating the pie. Now the students and the people of Iran are saying: "You know what, enough of you eating the pie. It's now time for everyone to share the pie." And this is mostly also about, not politics, but about economics.

Host: Alireza Nourizadeh, we've only got about fifteen seconds left. Are the student protests going to continue?

Nourizadeh: I think so. The determination I see in the street tells me that they are going to continue until the ninth of July when we're going to see the big demonstration. As it was promised by the student leaders.

Host: I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today. I'd like to thank my guests: Roya Boroumand of the Boroumand Foundation for the Promotion of Human Rights and Democracy in Iran; S. Rob Sobhani of Georgetown University; and by telephone from London, Alireza Nourizadeh of the Center for Arab-Iranian studies. Before we go, I'd like to invite you to send us your questions or comments. You can e-mail them to Ontheline@ibb.gov. For On the Line, I'm Eric Felten.