06 June 2002
Powell Says South Asian Tensions Remain Very High
(NPR interview June 4 dealing with S. Asia, Russia, Mideast,
terrorism) (5140)
Secretary of State Colin Powell said the situation between India and
Pakistan has eased somewhat, but tensions remain very high.
In a lengthy interview with National Public Radio June 4, Powell said
the United States is working intensively with Britain, Russia and the
international community to avert war in South Asia.
The State Department released the transcript of the Powell interview
June 6.
The United States is prepared to use its good offices to help India
and Pakistan initiate a dialogue over the Kashmir conflict, Powell
said, but a solution will depend on the two countries themselves
deciding to resolve the issue.
Regarding relations between the United States and Russia, Powell said
the missile reduction treaty recently signed by President Bush and
Russian President Putin and the formation of a new NATO-Russia Council
point to a significant improvement of relations.
With regard to Iran, Powell said both the United States and Russia do
not want to see Iran develop weapons of mass destruction. But the
secretary said the United States disagrees with Russia's contention
that Russian assistance to Iran does not contribute to the development
of such weapons.
Concerning terrorist threats, Powell said the Bush administration
reserves the right to take preemptive action against regimes and
non-state actors, including those developing weapons of mass
destruction.
He added that the United States has no plan to take military action
against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein, although the Bush administration
supports a change of regime in Iraq.
Commenting on the conflict between Israelis and Palestinians, Powell
said the United States is trying to organize a ministerial level
conference to address the issue some time during the summer.
He said the Bush administration is working toward the vision of
helping establish a Palestinian state. He said that will come about
after Palestinian terrorism against Israel, and Israeli occupation and
settlements within Palestinian areas have ended.
The secretary said the past one and a half years of the intifada have
not advanced the cause of a Palestinian state. He said that now is the
time for Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat to perform for his people.
Following is the transcript of the Powell interview with NPR:
(begin transcript)
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE Office of the Spokesman June 6, 2002
INTERVIEW OF SECRETARY OF STATE COLIN L. POWELL BY JUAN WILLIAMS OF
NPR'S MORNING EDITION
June 4, 2002 Washington, D.C.
MR. WILLIAMS: Let's begin with Pakistan and India. Has Pakistan
stopped making cross-border infiltrations across the line of control?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, President Musharraf has made declaratory
statements that is exactly what is happening, that he has given the
necessary instructions. And what we are doing now is waiting to see
whether that is happening in fact. In the last couple of days we have
started to pick up some indication that would suggest there is a
little less activity going across the line of control, but I think
it's going to take a bit more time to make sure that that is actually
what is happening.
I take President Musharraf at his word. He has given us this
assurance. We have passed that assurance on to the Indians. And we are
hopeful he is doing everything in his power to stop this kind of
activity.
Obviously there are elements in Kashmir that may not be bound by
President Musharraf's instructions, but to the extent that any
Pakistani Government units are in any way supporting this, that's the
kind of activity that has to be stopped.
MR. WILLIAMS: Is the United States --
SECRETARY POWELL: It's also really not so much a matter for the United
States to judge; it's what the Indians judge. And that's how we get
this crisis ceased -- stopped rather -- and moving in the other
direction, and that is the Indians can pick up their signals.
And I am encouraged by some statements the Indians made yesterday that
they have seen some indications of change, to the extent that they
think there is additional time to wait and see whether this is a real
change or not.
MR. WILLIAMS: So, in your opinion, there has been a lulling of
tensions?
SECRETARY POWELL: I don't want to go that far. I think that we have
seen a little bit of improvement in the last couple of days, but the
tension is still very high. This is still a very dangerous situation.
It is still a crisis.
I am pleased that both sides have given rather sobering statements
recently about nuclear weapons, and nobody wants to think about the
use of nuclear weapons. That is helpful, even if it's only rhetorical
at this point.
So tension is still high, it's still a crisis, but I think I've seen a
few positive elements in the last couple of weeks.
MR. WILLIAMS: You still have US troops in Pakistan, and you mentioned
that the US has been monitoring whether or not there have been
cross-line-of-control infiltration by militants. Is the United States
playing a role of monitoring what's taking place there? Are you
reporting --
SECRETARY POWELL: The US troops are there principally, in relatively
modest numbers, because of our efforts in Afghanistan. But US troops
are not monitoring the line of control, not patrolling the line of
control, are not in that part of the region at all.
MR. WILLIAMS: Any chance that those troops might be pulled in?
SECRETARY POWELL: I don't see any prospect of that.
MR. WILLIAMS: Do you see any political solution to the Indian-Pakistan
conflict?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes. There is nothing inevitable about war. If
political leaders want to find a political solution, there is usually
one that can be found. Both leaders, President Musharraf and Prime
Minister Vajpayee, have said repeatedly over the last almost six-plus
months now that they are hopeful for a political solution.
And that's what we are working so hard on, and that's why this
afternoon Deputy Secretary of State, my deputy Rich Armitage, is
heading to the region. It's why I have been living on the telephones
for months now -- I've spoken to President Musharraf as recently as
two days ago -- and why Donald Rumsfeld, our Secretary of Defense,
will also be heading to India and Pakistan at the tail end of the trip
he is making beginning today for NATO meetings, and then into other
parts of the region, into the Persian Gulf area, and then ultimately
ending up in India and Pakistan.
So we are keeping up a full court diplomatic, a full court political
press, working closely with our friends and allies, working closely
with the British, who have unique relations with both of those
countries, working closely with the Russians, President Putin and
Foreign Minister Ivanov. I spoke to Foreign Minister Ivanov before the
meeting that's taking place now in Almaty to make sure that our
messages are consistent and coherent. And I'm very pleased that the
whole international community has come together to make the case to
India and Pakistan that we do not want to see this disagreement result
in a war, with lots of unintended consequences.
MR. WILLIAMS: Tell me a little bit about a framework. This is a
longstanding dispute on the Kashmir region.
SECRETARY POWELL: Kashmir is a longstanding dispute. It's been going
on since the creation of the two countries, some 54 years ago. And
many, many efforts have been made over the years to resolve the
Kashmir dispute, but it's still there. And if we get this crisis ended
and we get the Indian army to go back to its home stations and
essentially we end this confrontation at the border, we have said to
both sides that the United States and other members of the
international community are willing to lend their good offices to the
beginning of a dialogue between India and Pakistan on all of their
outstanding issues, to include Kashmir.
But it is an issue that is only going to be resolved by the two sides
talking to each other, working with each other. It's been difficult to
get the process started in recent years, but I have said to both of
them, and the President has said to both countries, the United States
is willing to assist in the beginning of that dialogue; we don't want
to be the mediator, that won't work, but we certainly can lend our
good offices to the beginning of discussions.
MR. WILLIAMS: Just to put the question another way, you don't have any
idea for what a possible framework might be that could resolve that
dispute?
SECRETARY POWELL: There are many ideas that have been tried over the
years, and I'm sure that if a dialogue begins we may well have some
ideas we put on the table. But it would be premature now to start,
without talking to the two parties, to put forward "an outsider's
plan." It's something that's going to have to be dealt with between
the two sides, and we have to do it very carefully, with a lot of
preparation. And they will have to prepare themselves as well for this
dialogue because we've seen so many false starts in the past.
So there's a lot of discussion over the last several days. Should the
two leaders meet in Almaty together? Isn't that the solution, for them
to get in a room across the table? Well, that hasn't worked very well
the last couple of times they've tried it, so it seems to me that we
should not be in a hurry to move this issue to the center stage until
the necessary preparatory work has been done.
Right now, what we are trying to do is to end this crisis that exists
with these two armies facing one another. We want to get that under
control and then we can see how best to go about getting a dialogue
started between the two that ultimately has to deal with the issue of
Kashmir.
MR. WILLIAMS: What do you make of the Indian Prime Minister Vajpayee's
refusal to sit down and talk to President Musharraf? He says that
until there is a promise that they will no longer support militant
activities, there's no need to talk. What does a diplomat do with
that?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, that's his position, and that goes right back
to what I said a moment ago. Where we are right now in this crisis is
we need to determine that that cross-LOC activity has been brought
under control or stopped. At that point then, the windshield wiper --
I like to say -- switches over the Indian side and says, okay, it's
stopped; now we are expecting you to take de-escalatory steps to move
back away from the border, to start moving away; let's end this
immediate crisis, and then let's see what next steps come along.
And ultimately, the two sides will have to get into a discussion with
each other. If we are successful diplomatically, politically, in due
course at some time in the future the two sides will be in a room
talking to one another, because that's where we have to end up.
MR. WILLIAMS: The Russian President Putin is playing a role here. A
week or so ago, President Bush was with Mr. Putin and on a trip to
Europe in general. Was that trip a success?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think that trip was a great success. We signed a
historic treaty with the Russians. I was pleased to be there when it
was done. We all worked very hard on the treaty. And it reduces the
number of operationally deployed warheads by two-thirds from the
levels that they are now. Those warheads initially go into storage,
but ultimately each side will make their own determination of what you
do with these extra warheads. You destroy some of them, some are kept
as spares. But the pressure will be to get rid of them as fast as you
can. We don't want them around. But both countries have a limit as to
how fast they can get rid of them. It's not an easy thing to do. And
so I'm very pleased with that treaty making this significant reduction
in operationally deployed warheads.
President Putin and President Bush also signed a political document
that gave us a way with respect to economic cooperation, regional
things we can do together. And then the President had good meetings
with Chancellor Schroeder of Germany, a good meeting with President
Chirac in France, and then with Prime Minister Berlusconi in Rome --
all leading up to another historic event. That was the NATO meeting in
Rome where Russia was welcomed into a new NATO-Russia Council.
It simply means that the 19 NATO nations will sit down from time to
time on selected issues with Russia, so there will be a council for
all 20 nations together working on issues of mutual interest --
counter-terrorism, nonproliferation, air-sea rescue activities -- an
easy one to do. Why shouldn't these 20 nations come up with a common
ideal of how to perform civil emergency efforts with each other,
air-sea rescue, things of that nature?
So I think this is an important breakthrough, and it brings Russia
closer to the West, and the West closer to Russia. And as part of the
President's strategy of demonstrating to Russia that they are no
longer an enemy, and we are no longer their enemy, and so let's
cooperate more on a NATO-Russia Council, let's do more together on
economic issues.
By the way, when NATO has its Prague summit later this fall and
invites other nations that want to be a part of NATO to join NATO,
Russia should not see that as a threat in any way to Russia's
interests. We are all trying to work together on this greater
Euro-Atlantic partnership.
MR. WILLIAMS: Very quickly, the critics have said that missile
agreement really is window dressing, does not substantially reduce the
threat of nuclear annihilation in this world. The point out that there
were large demonstrations in Europe, that many of the European leaders
were concerned about US interest in taking -- changing the regime rule
in Iraq. And finally, on the Russian issue, I think people said, well,
the United States did not even succeed in getting Russia to promise to
stop exporting nuclear materials to Iran.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, you have a lot of questions in that one
statement, Juan, so let me start with the treaty. It is not window
dressing. Any time you go from 6,000 warheads deployed that could be
launched, and you take that down to 1,700 to 2,200 warheads deployed,
and the Russians will know where those warheads are on deployed
systems and we'll know where theirs are, and the whole verification
regime that existed with previous arms control agreements, especially
START I, that comes into this new agreement. So it is not just window
dressing. It is for real.
And we had said to the Russians we don't need this treaty, we're going
to do it anyway, and you can watch us. But the Russians said, please,
let's make it legally binding, it's important for us. And that's what
we're doing. Their Duma, their congress, and our Senate will ratify
this agreement, so it's not window dressing.
With respect to issues such as Russia's assistance to Iran, which we
believe contributes to Iran's ability to develop weapons of mass
destruction and the missiles to deliver them, Russia says, look, we
don't want Iran to have that capability, we assure you we are not
providing that kind of help and that kind of technology. We don't
agree with that.
So this is a place where we have a common goal -- Iran should not have
that kind of capability -- but we have a disagreement as to whether
what the Russians are doing contributes to that goal or not. So we can
have a disagreement and continue to move forward.
I also did notice, as you suggested, some demonstrations in Europe.
But by the standards of the day, they were fairly modest. And I also
saw many people greeting the President, greeting the members of the
delegation, and I can assure you that all of the leaders we met with,
all of the NATO leaders in Rome and the other leaders we had bilateral
meetings with, were very complimentary of the President's actions in
Russia, both with the treaty and the political document, and were very
complimentary of the President's actions with respect to helping bring
into being the NATO-Russia Council.
MR. WILLIAMS: On Saturday at West Point, the President said that the
United States would take preemptive action against people who would
perpetrate terror in this world. Many people interpreted that as being
a statement that he would -- he's still interested in taking action
against Saddam Hussein. At the same time, the administration says the
President has no war plans on his desk. Make sense of this for me.
SECRETARY POWELL: I think it makes perfect sense. The President has
this habit of telling the truth. And the truth is that we believe that
those regimes -- and very often non-state actors, terrorists -- who
are developing weapons of mass destruction are great dangers to us and
to the rest of the world. And it is not like a traditional
conventional conflict. If we know they're doing it and we know they're
coming our way, then it seems to me to be a sensible strategy to
preserve the option to take preemptive action. If we knew that the
Japanese fleet was on its way to attack Pearl Harbor, we wouldn't wait
until they attacked Pearl Harbor; we would have taken preemptive
action.
In the case of all actors that are developing this kind of technology,
the President put them on warning. And since Saddam Hussein and the
Iraqi regime is developing this kind of technology, the President once
again reaffirmed that he believes a regime change would be best for
Iraq and for the Iraqi people. But we're also working with the UN on
sanctions and on inspectors. The fact that he doesn't have a plan on
his desk right now is a statement of fact. So he is concerned, he is
examining his options, but right now he has not been provided a
recommendation by his advisors, and there is no plan on his desk.
MR. WILLIAMS: Any political solution on the horizon with regard to
Iraq?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think there are political things that can be done.
We did it with the passing of the smart sanctions resolution a few
weeks ago. And we will see whether the Iraqis are interested in
letting the UN inspectors back in when they meet with the Secretary
General of the United Nations in early July.
So there are some political steps that can be taken, but it's hard to
imagine that we will ever find a solution to this problem with Saddam
Hussein sitting at the head of that regime. And we'll see whether or
not there are political, diplomatic or other ways to change that
regime.
MR. WILLIAMS: Now, a few weeks ago in talking about a meeting of all
the parties in the Middle East, you talked about having a conference.
The White House then said, well, we really think it's more like a
meeting. And I heard that you were joking with the President about a
grand summit, and what's the difference between a meeting and a
conference.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, "grand summit" is a term I never used, because
I always saw this as a ministerial level meeting, meaning that people
at my level -- I would essentially represent the United States at such
a meeting. I think the reason that's important is because a lot has
happened over the last year and a half, and we really have a lot of
work to do before we start thinking about grand summits where we bring
every head of state imaginable to some conference, and we're going to
solve every problem in the Middle East all at one meeting. It isn't
going to happen that way.
And so what I put forward and what the President has endorsed and what
the President is expecting to happen over the next several weeks or
couple of months is that Director Tenet will return from the Middle
East with his report on security transformation in the Palestinian
Authority; Ambassador Burns, my Assistant Secretary for Near Eastern
Affairs, will be back this week, and he will talk about what political
options are available; Prime Minister Sharon is coming early next
week; President Mubarak will be here this week; we've talked to the
Saudis. Lots of ideas are being pulled together. And I am still
planning at the President's direction to hold some kind of meeting in
the course of the summer.
The joke the President and I were having when the press got on to
somebody calling it a conference, somebody calling it a meeting, and
the President said to me, "Colin, what's the difference between a
conference and a meeting?" I said, "Mr. President, not much. Let them
call it what they will. It is a get-together where people come
together to try to find a way forward out of a problem."
MR. WILLIAMS: Now, you have Prime Minister Sharon and one of his
political opponents, Benjamin Netanyahu, battling over this concept of
a Palestinian state. Israel is an American ally, and yet it seems as
if Israel has not bought in fully to the idea of supporting a
Palestinian state.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, Mr. Sharon clearly is discussing this within
the Likud Party, and Mr. Netanyahu has a point of view and Mr. Sharon
has a point of view. Previously, Mr. Sharon has talked about a
Palestinian state, and previous Israeli governments have participated
in negotiations that would have led to a Palestinian state. The United
States position, the President's position, is that there will have to
be a Palestinian state to find a solution to this problem. The
President said that clearly and on a number of occasions. In fact, he
was the first president to so state it before a public forum last year
at the United Nations and give that Palestinian state a name,
Palestine -- something that hadn't been done before.
And so we continue to work toward that vision, and as the President
said, it will come about when we have ended the violence and terrorism
perpetrated by Palestinian terrorists against Israel, and when we have
ended the occupation and dealt with the settlements issue. And when we
deal with these very, very difficult issues, you will have to do that
in the course of meetings and conferences and best efforts on the part
of a lot of people in the international community -- all leading to a
state for the Palestinian people. Now, it may turn out to be a
provisional arrangement initially as we work toward a settlement at
some point in the future. All those issues are now being examined. But
I think it is clear to all of us that there must be a Palestinian
state for the Palestinian people that can live side by side in peace
and in security with an Israeli state, the state of Israel, a Jewish
state, the state of Israel.
MR. WILLIAMS: Is there any indication that Mr. Arafat's support is
waning among the Palestinian people?
SECRETARY POWELL: I have read those reports. I think the Palestinian
people expect Mr. Arafat to do more for them, to perform. They have
now been in the Intifada for a year and a half, and it hasn't brought
them anything except grief. It has brought them no closer to a
Palestinian state. It has, as a result of Israeli response to the
Intifada, pretty much destroyed the economy. And so now that Mr.
Arafat is out of his detention in Ramallah and is free to act as the
leader of the Palestinian people and the head of the Palestinian
Authority, there is now a burden on him to perform. And to the extent
that he doesn't perform, I think there will be disappointment within
the Palestinian community, just as there is disappointment in our
community. President Bush has expressed his disappointment with Mr.
Arafat, as have I. And we are calling on him to perform. Leaders
perform. It is time for Mr. Arafat to perform.
MR. WILLIAMS: That bell that was ringing, we're here in the Marshall
Room right across from your office. Two quick questions --
SECRETARY POWELL: No, that was your signal, Juan. (Laughter.)
MR. WILLIAMS: That's NPR's signal? Oh, that's the State Department
signal, as you said. (Laughter.)
SECRETARY POWELL: Juan was saying we're in the Marshall Room, and a
beautiful antique clock just went off. We were not giving NPR the
hook.
MR. WILLIAMS: Thank you, Mr. Secretary.
What do you make of the fact that Israel continues to build
settlements on the West Bank, or that today in Jenin you saw Israeli
attacks in advance of Mr. Tenet's meeting with Mr. Arafat?
SECRETARY POWELL: I wouldn't attribute those attacks related to Mr.
Tenet's visit. What Israeli has said is that acts of self-defense,
they believe are when they have intelligence on potential terrorist
activity or they have identified people who might be performing these
kinds of activities, they are reserving the right to go after them to
prevent this kind of activity.
We hope that we can find other ways to deal with this problem. It's
one of the reasons George Tenet is there, to improve security
coordination and cooperation between the Israeli and the Palestinian
sides, so together they can go after these kinds of activities, these
kinds of individuals. And so I don't see that as necessarily directly
related to Mr. Tenet's visit.
With respect to settlements, the Mitchell Plan that we've supported
all of last year made clear that settlement activity must come to an
end. It is one of those major issues that we will have to discuss in
order to find a political solution. You may recall at the tail end of
President Clinton's administration they had arrived at least at some
initial negotiating positions that suggested the Israelis were
prepared to leave a large percentage of those settlements. We'll see
how we get back into that kind of a discussion in due course. But the
settlements remain one of the key issues that will have to be resolved
because the settlements reflect the occupation which President Bush
said, in his important 4 April speech, must be ended.
MR. WILLIAMS: Well, I am getting a signal to stop, but I wanted to ask
two sort of human fun questions, as long as I've got you. One is
Father's Day is coming. I wonder if you know what the kids have
planned for you. You have three wonderful children.
SECRETARY POWELL: I have three wonderful children. There's no telling
what they have planned. It's probably a phone call saying, "Hey, Pop,
we love you." And that's good enough for me.
I'm not sure, I haven't been told yet what I'm doing that day. I tell
everybody else around the State Department what we're going to do
every day, but at home I'm told what I'm going to do on days like
Father's Day. I don't know who will be in town, but I hope I'll have
my three kids and my two grandsons around that day. It's always a
pleasant day. And it's not just my family, but my daughter-in-law's
family. We all try to get together.
MR. WILLIAMS: Now, Luther Powell, back in the Bronx, Jamaican
immigrant, if he saw his kid here, what do you think he'd think?
SECRETARY POWELL: He was a little guy, about 5'3", and his chest would
be bursting with pride. It was a fascinating family in that it didn't
make any difference how high you went in life; the only thing that
made a difference was how you lived life, and were you a good citizen
and did you take care of your family. And it didn't make any
difference in my family as to whether you were a bus driver or
Secretary of State as long as you met the expectations of the family,
that you would do your best and you would do well.
MR. WILLIAMS: It's 40 years of marriage coming up August 25th?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes.
MR. WILLIAMS: What are you going to do -- or shouldn't you tell us
what you're going to do that day?
SECRETARY POWELL: I'm not about to -- one, I haven't figured it out
yet. And two, this is 40 years of marriage, and we're very proud of
that, of course. We'll do it in a very private way. We're private
people. We're public people, but we've put as much of our private life
out as we intend to. And I'm sure we'll celebrate in an appropriate
way with the family privately.
MR. WILLIAMS: Mr. Secretary, thank you so much for giving us this
time.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, Juan.
MR. WILLIAMS: Good to see you, sir.
SECRETARY POWELL: Don't you edit out my clock.
(Laughter.)
MS. FEENEY: If we can have on more question. In this newfangled world
(inaudible) can I get a picture for the website?
SECRETARY POWELL: You have to see our website.
MS. FEENEY: Yeah?
MR. WILLIAMS: You know what? Actually, my son (inaudible) he went to
www.state.gov to look up the intern program.
SECRETARY POWELL: Yeah, we've got cool stuff on our website now. We've
got Flat Stanley --
(Photographs were taken.)
MR. WILLIAMS: What did you think of Mr. Schultz's comments about the
Arab states?
SECRETARY POWELL: Which of the --
MR. WILLIAMS: You know when he was over there with the other
(inaudible) and he said they have to do more in terms of promoting
democracy.
SECRETARY POWELL: Absolutely. Yeah, and I agree.
MR. WILLIAMS: So no news, but I mean, the question is then, like The
Washington Post said this morning, why doesn't the United States do
more to promote democracy in the Arab states, as if we're (inaudible)?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, there's some movement in places like Morocco,
with elections coming up this year, a more open society for women.
Bahrain, Qatar -- a number of others are starting to move. And I think
all of them recognize that this is the direction they have to start to
move in, but I don't -- I think what we have to do is to recognize the
sensitivities and sensibilities about all this, and do it quietly
(inaudible) as opposed to screaming (inaudible).
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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