MR. CHAIRMAN: Please do not interrupt.
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SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): I am just listing out the consequences one by one.
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MR. CHAIRMAN: Please sit down.
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(Interruptions) ... (Not recorded)
SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): How is it going to affect the bilateral relations with our neighbours, particularly with China? I would like to know as to how the Government is going to handle that. What is the final stand of the Government on CTBT. The hon. Member of the ruling Party has already raised that question and I would come to that. More importantly, Shri Yashwant Sinha, the hon. Finance Minister, is here and I would like to know from him as to how he is going to handle the effect of this on the economy of this country. We are waiting for his Budget. I would discuss much more at the time when the General Budget would be discussed. But certainly I would expect Shri Sinha to tell the country as to how he is going to meet this challenge of sanctions.
Mr. Chairman, Sir, coming to the arms race, the Prime Minister in his statement, in para 14 of the statement, which has been laid on the Table of the House, stated and I quote:
"India shall not engage in arms race. India shall not subscribe or re-invent the doctrine of the Cold War".
I do not know how the statement was made by the Prime Minister of this country. I would like to know whether the statement stands valid even after Pakistan has gone in for five nuclear tests.
I would like to know from the Government as to whether this statement remains valid or not. If it remains valid, I do not know whether the Government has control over what is going on. What is the scenario? I would like to briefly share this with the House. We already know what Pakistan has done after our nuclear test. I am not going into it. What did Mr. Clinton say? President Clinton told Mr.Nawaz Sharif, to help them work together to guarantee Pakistan's security. This is what Mr. Clinton has said, that is America will guarantee Pakistan's security. This is the reaction of President Clinton. The United States ... (Interruptions) I do not understand why they are interrupting like this when such a serious issue is being discussed.
SHRI AJIT JOGI (RAIGARH): Such a serious debate is going on. Why is he giving a running commentary?
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SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): I think Shri Sinha would clarify it. What was the reaction of Mr. Clinton? What did the US Secretary of State say?... (Interruptions)
SHRI BHUBANESWAR KALITA (GUWAHATI): How can you allow him?
MR. CHAIRMAN: No, I am not allowing him. Please sit down.
... (Interruptions)
MR. CHAIRMAN: He is not yielding. Please sit down.
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SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): The US Secretary of State, Ms. Madeline Albright has said and I quote: "US would respond to Pakistan's security concern". We have reports that already talks and negotiations are on between the authorities of the United States of America and Pakistan for transfer of technology. There is a strong hope and it is almost certain that the Pressler (Amendment) Act, which was blocked in 1990, is going to be scrapped in order to supply F-16 Jets to Pakistan. I know that the Government has this information but I am sharing it with the House. There have been visits from Pakistan to China. We do not know what did they talk but we all know what indications did the Prime Minister of Pakistan in his broadcast to the nation give. He praised the longstanding, time-tested friendship between Pakistan and China. I think these are the things which the country should listen to.
There are widely publicised reports that Pakistan is seeking solidarity of the Islamic world in the matter of containing nuclear India. The self-styled Prime Minister of PoK, Barrister Sultan Mehmood Chowdhary, has already been received in the Foreign Office and Commonwealth Office of the British Government. These are the signals the Government should take notice of. This is what is happening in Pakistan. We all know what is happening in our State. I do not think I should repeat the pro-active action of the Home Minister, Shri Advani. We have heard him so many times. We have heard him yesterday also. I do not want to repeat the way he warned Pakistan.
My very trusted friend, Mr. Khurana, is not here now. He said, "India is ready to fight a fourth war with Pakistan. Let them tell us the time and place and we will show what India is and what my Government is".
The signals which should come to us, I have told you. The signal which was going to Pakistan, I am saying now. It is very important as far as arms race is concerned. Dr. Farooq Abdullah, the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, said, "Time for talks and negotiations is over. We should take a tough decision now." This was the signal which was going from India to Pakistan. Shri Ashok Singhal, on 23-5-98, said, "What is the alternative, if Pakistan continues to abet terrorism in India? It will not be wrong to attack and silence Pakistan." ...(Interruptions) Shri Pramod Mahajan said, "Nuclear tests are not for academic purposes."
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SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): Okay, I will not take VHP supremo's name.
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You can quote. Do not worry@ about the rules. I was Speaker here; I know the rules.
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MR. CHAIRMAN (BENI PRASAD VERMA): Please, let him continue.
SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): Then, I come to China. We all know that China has claimed that India is in occupation of 90,000 sq km of their territory. They has also said that MacMahon Line is illegal. On the 14th of this month, China has accused that Indian tests were a brazen contempt for world efforts at test ban, that the tests were aimed at hegemony in South Asia and that India has slandered China by branding it as a nuclear threat. This was the signal from China.
1542 hours (Shri K. Yerrannaidu in the Chair)
What was the signal from Russia? Russia described India as her strategic partner and declared that she is willing to recognise India as a nuclear weapon State provided she joins the international non-proliferation regime that includes CTBT, NPT, etc.
These were the signals going on from one place to another. And Prime Minister says, "India shall not engage in an arms race. India shall not subscribe to or reinvent the doctrine of cold war." I do not know how he is going to stop it. I personally do not know. They have to change their attitude. It is very much required. With the kind of aggressive postures that the Government is making towards Pakistan and the kind of approach that they are taking towards China -- I do not want to refer to what the Defence Minister had said, etc., -- they had better be careful of what they talk. I do not know why the Ministers of this Government are so fond of talking. Please, for God's sake, let them stop talking. And when they talk, they should do so after they think about things sensibly. It is not easy to run a great country like India. What we cannot afford to indulge in is lavish cross talks. It is being done lavishly and it is not good for the country.
Yesterday, the Prime Minister of Pakistan had offered that Pakistan was willing to hold talks and that Pakistan was willing to offer a `no war pact'. Of course, Indian Government had suo motu said to Pakistan that India was willing to offer `no first use' agreement to Pakistan.
It is a good sign. Please persuade them.
I was in Pakistan in November last to attend the Conference of Conference was on `people to people contact'. When I met some of the intellectuals of Pakistan in Islamabad they were very happy. Shri Jaswant Singh was with me. I am happy to tell you here that one of the gentlemen in Pakistan asked: `Mr. Sangma, do you know who is the most popular politician of India in Pakistan?' I asked him: `How do I know?' He said: "The most popular politician of India in Pakistan was Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee." Please clap. ... (Interruptions)
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AN HON. MEMBER: This is childish. ... (Interruptions)
SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): I asked him: "Why?" I asked him: "How?" ... (Interruptions) How is it that Shri Vajpayee is so popular in Pakistan? They said that today you are having a Conference on people to people contact, but this process of people to people contact between India and Pakistan was started by Shri Vajpayee when he was the Foreign Minister of India. He went to Pakistan. He liberalised and streamlined the visa procedure. He made the procedure for getting visa easy so that people from Pakistan could come to India and people from India could go to Pakistan. That was the initiative taken by Shri Atal Bihari Vajpayee. That is why he was called the most popular politician in Pakistan. After 11th of May, I do not know as to what is the popularity of Shri Vajpayee in Pakistan. That, of course, I cannot say.
THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF AGRICULTURE (SHRI SOMPAL): He is strongly popular now.
SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): I think you came back from Islamabad last night. ... (Interruptions)
I can tell you that I met a large number of people of Pakistan. I met the Prime Minister, Mr. Nawaz Sharif; I met the then President of Pakistan; I met the Speaker and the Members of Parliament in large numbers. Each one of them had told me that India and Pakistan have wasted 50 years in conflict. Let us forget the past; let us go ahead the next 50 years; let us concentrate on development and progress. Why do we quarrel?
I visited the Karachi Club in Pakistan. I was surprised to listen to the intellectuals. Almost 150 intellectuals were there. Each one of them had something to speak about India - Oh! my brother was a Brigadier; my uncle was in Navy; my father was in India. Why did they tell me? They did so just to show how keen they are to improve their relationship with our country and how they are willing to come closer to India. I do not know why we have spoiled all this.
MR. CHAIRMAN (SHRI K. YERRANNAIDU): Shri Sangma, you have already taken 45 minutes.
... (Interruptions)
SHRI JAG MOHAN (NEW DELHI): You have said that what all those people asked you and what you told them. Did you ask them why for the last nine years they have been sending terrorists to Kashmir? The stand of the Congress Party itself is that they have been aiding and abetting terrorists in Kashmir. Did you ask any of those intellectuals why they have been indulging in it? Is it an indication of friendship and people to people contact.
SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): I am talking about the people of Pakistan. I am not talking about the Government of Pakistan, please. I am only narrating my interaction with the people of Pakistan. I am not talking on behalf of the Government of Pakistan.
Well, with China, in 1962, we had war. We cut off our diplomatic relations with China. When was the diplomatic dialogue started? It was started in 1979. By whom? Again by Shri Atal Behari Vajpayee. The first Indian dignitary to visit China after 1962 war officially was Shri Vajpayee, the then Foreign Minister of India and from there things started with Rajiv Gandhi's visit, with the President's visit and so many other things. For the last many years we have been trying to improve our relationship. We have been trying to build up, what you call, our confidence building measures.
I have visited China twice. I met President Jhiang Zemin there. When he came to India, I had a very long discussion with him. I met so many of the Chinese leaders in Beijing. When we have been talking, how to build up these confidence building measures, how to establish this mutual trust, let us forget other disputes, keep them aside and concentrate on economic cooperation in the interest of both the countries. With so much of pain, with so much effort, we have been trying to build up that relationship.
And what happened? What happened to those efforts? Today, with the simple action that you have done, I do not know -- I have a lot of points to make and the time is short, but I would come to CTBT because at least this point, I do not want to miss -- how are you going to handle CTBT. We would like to know about this. Different people are speaking in different ways.
Shri Pramod Mahajan says on the 13th of May, "Government has no intention of signing CTBT for now." Shri George Fernandes, on 18th of May, says, "The country would be willing to discuss CTBT as nuclear weapon State." I do not know what he is going to discuss, whether it is discussable or not. I know very little about CTBT. Shri Jaswant Singh on 18th of May, the same day, said, "We shall offer a meaningful discussion with key interlocutors of CTBT."
SHRI SOMNATH CHATTERJEE (BOLPUR): What does Shri Brijesh Mishra say?
SHRI PURNO A. SANGMA (TURA): I am reserving him for something else because I do not want to take the name of one person many times.
In Para 19 of the Prime Minister's Statement, let us see what is said. It is important, I think we should read it.
"Subsequent to the tests, Government have already stated that India will now observe a voluntary moratorium."
Of course, he has withdrawn it last night, I heard him on Television. Why do they have to say that? They claim to know everything that is going on in Pakistan. They knew that Pakistan was going to have the test. After having known all these, the Prime Minister stated that they were observing voluntary moratorium. But after that, yesterday he suddenly said before Television, "No, I have to review the moratorium." Why do they do that?
"It has also indicated willingness to move towards a de-jure formalisation of the Declaration. The basic obligation of the CTBT are thus met."
What does that mean? They are going to sign. How are they going to sign? Have we really applied our mind?
When CTBT was discussed here, the House was unanimous that we shall not sign CTBT. That was the consensus -- not consensus, unanimity in the House. Our policy towards CTBT is also based on national consensus. And today the Prime Minister makes a statement, without even taking us into confidence, without even discussing it in Parliament, that we have met all the obligations and we are ready to sign CTBT.
Why did we oppose CTBT? We opposed CTBT because we wanted it to be really comprehensive. Has it become comprehensive after these tests? We took a position that it is not comprehensive. Now, has it become comprehensive after these tests? Secondly, we said that it should be non-discriminatory. We said: `You have your weapon and you are not allowing others to make weapon. We do not agree to that. This is discrimination.' Now, India, having got it, wants to discriminate all the rest. What is the difference between those countries and India? So far you have said that it should be non discriminatory. Now you are also going in for discriminatory. The third one, which is the most important point, is that CTBT should be within disarmament framework and that we should have a time bound programme on disarmament. You are talking about non proliferation. You are not talking about disarmament. India insists on disarmament. You have refused to sign CTBT because it did not contain a programme for disarmament. Now, because you have tested it, I do not know how you have suddenly said that we are going to sign it. You are against armament, stock pile of weapons. Even the programme is very clear.
Shri Jaswant Singh has said: "The question of weaponisation is implicit in the tests themselves. The demonstration by India is the capability to weaponise and deploy weaponised programme in different systems of delivery." This is what Shri Jaswant Singh has said.
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