DATE=06/05/99
TYPE=ON THE LINE
NUMBER=1-00745
TITLE=TIANANMEN: TEN YEARS LATER
EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY - 619-0037
CONTENT=
THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE
ANNCR: ON THE LINE -- A DISCUSSION OF UNITED STATES
POLICIES AND CONTEMPORARY ISSUES.
THIS WEEK, "TIANANMEN: TEN YEARS LATER." HERE
IS YOUR HOST, ROBERT REILLY.
HOST: HELLO AND WELCOME TO ON THE LINE.
TEN YEARS AGO, ON JUNE 4TH, CHINESE ARMY TANKS
AND TROOPS ASSAULTED THOUSANDS OF PEACEFUL
PRO-DEMOCRACY DEMONSTRATORS WHO HAD OCCUPIED
TIANANMEN SQUARE FOR NEARLY TWO MONTHS. MANY
STUDENTS AND OTHERS WERE KILLED. THE CHINESE
CRACKDOWN MET WITH UNIVERSAL CONDEMNATION. BUT
THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAS REFUSED TO RECONSIDER
ITS ACTIONS, DESPITE APPEALS BY SOME WITHIN THE
COMMUNIST PARTY.
JOINING ME TODAY TO DISCUSS CHINA TEN YEARS
AFTER TIANANMEN ARE THREE EXPERTS. XIAO QIANG
IS EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA,
A NON-GOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION BASED IN NEW
YORK THAT MONITORS AND ADVOCATES HUMAN RIGHTS IN
CHINA. DOUGLAS PAAL IS PRESIDENT OF THE ASIA
PACIFIC POLICY CENTER HERE IN WASHINGTON. AND
DAVID AIKMAN IS SENIOR FELLOW AT THE ETHICS AND
PUBLIC POLICY CENTER AND FORMER BEIJING BUREAU
CHIEF OF TIME MAGAZINE.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM. XIAO QIANG, YOU WENT TO
BEIJING SHORTLY AFTER THE TIANANMEN SQUARE
MASSACRE TO INVESTIGATE EXACTLY WHAT TOOK PLACE.
CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT THAT AND THEN
REFLECT UPON THIS EVENT FROM THIS VANTAGE POINT.
XIAO: SURE. TEN YEARS AGO, I WAS A CHINESE STUDENT
STUDYING IN THE UNITED STATES, WATCHING C-N-N.
AND WHEN I SAW THE GUNFIRE AND TANKS, I DECIDED
TO GO BACK IMMEDIATELY AND I DID. THAT WAS VERY
MUCH A PERSONAL ACTION. BUT JUST LIKE HUNDREDS
OF THOUSANDS OR MILLIONS OF OTHERS, I WAS
INSPIRED BY THE SPIRIT OF THE STUDENTS AND
DEMONSTRATORS AND OUTRAGED BY SUCH BRUTAL
KILLING CONDUCTED BY MY OWN GOVERNMENT AGAINST
ITS OWN PEOPLE. MY OWN BROTHER WAS IN TIANANMEN
DURING THOSE DAYS. SO EVERYTHING IS PART OF ME,
AND I STILL REMEMBER VIVIDLY. AT THAT TIME I
VISITED MANY FAMILIES AND FRIENDS AND PEOPLE WHO
PARTICIPATED IN THE MOVEMENT. AND IN BEIJING, I
PERSONALLY HAD A VERY DANGEROUS ARGUMENT WITH A
SOLDIER ON THE STREET AND WAS PICKED UP BY THE
POLICE. I SAW THE BULLET HOLES IN THE STREET, A
LITTLE HIGHER THAN THE KNEES ON EVERY BUILDING
NEAR THE CHANG-AN AVENUE. THERE IS NOTHING THAT
CAN COVER THAT BLOODSHED IN MY MIND. AND THAT
WAS A TRIP THAT TURNED MY LIFE INTO HUMAN RIGHTS
ACTIVISM EVER SINCE. AND IN MANY WAYS, I AM NOT
BACK FROM THAT TRIP YET. AND I THINK CHINA HAS
NOT COMPLETED THAT PROCESS OF TIANANMEN YET.
HOST: DOUGLAS PAAL, AT THAT TIME YOU WERE SERVING
PRESIDENT [GEORGE] BUSH ON THE NATIONAL SECURITY
COUNCIL. PRESIDENT BUSH MADE THE POINT AT THE
TIME, AMIDST THE UNIVERSAL REVULSION AT THIS
SLAUGHTER, THAT, IN THE LONG RUN, IT WOULD BE
BETTER IN TERMS OF HUMAN RIGHTS TO ENGAGE CHINA
THAN TO ISOLATE IT. ANY REGRETS TEN YEARS
LATER? WAS THAT THE RIGHT RESPONSE?
PAAL: I THINK SO. IT WAS VERY HARD TO GET AHEAD OF
THE SWELLING EMOTION OF THE REACTION TO WHAT HAD
HAPPENED IN CHINA. PRESIDENT BUSH, IN THE EARLY
HOURS OF THE ATTACK, MADE THE STRONGEST
STATEMENT MADE BY ANY FOREIGN LEADER. AND YET,
AFTER PEOPLE SAW WHAT WAS TAKING PLACE IN THE
STREETS, THEY FELT IT WAS NOT STRONG ENOUGH.
AND PRESSURES KEPT MOUNTING AND MOUNTING FOR
EVER STRONGER REACTIONS BY THE UNITED STATES.
HOST: SUCH AS?
PAAL: WELL, THE SUSPENSION OF ANY HIGH-LEVEL
ACTIVITIES, WHICH WAS ANNOUNCED LATER IN JUNE.
AFTER THE REVELATION OF THE ROUNDUP OF STUDENTS
WHO HAD ESCAPED THE KILLING AT TIANANMEN, AFTER
THE EXPOSE OF THE CHINESE INTERCEPTING TAPED
INTERVIEWS THAT VARIOUS BROADCAST NETWORKS HAD
CONDUCTED WITH PEOPLE WHO HAD EXPRESSED OPINIONS
AGAINST THE GOVERNMENT. AND SO, ANGER BUILT.
BUT I DO NOT HAVE ANY REGRET ABOUT THE
PRESIDENT'S REMARKS THAT WE STILL NEEDED TO
ENGAGE CHINA. DESPITE THE CONVULSIONS IN CHINA,
CHINA IS NOT GOING TO GO AWAY. ITS CONNECTION
TO NORTH KOREA, ITS THREATS TO TAIWAN, ITS PART
IN A WORLD MARKET PLACE ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE
FUNDAMENTALLY, EVEN WITH THIS EVENT.
HOST: BUT WHAT ABOUT IN RESPECT TO HUMAN RIGHTS? HE
WAS SAYING THAT, IN THE LONG RUN, ENGAGING CHINA
WILL HELP TO IMPROVE THE INTERNAL HUMAN RIGHTS
SITUATION. DO YOU THINK HAS BEEN THE CASE?
PAAL: I THINK THAT'S RIGHT. THE TWENTY-FIVE YEAR
RECORD, FROM 1972 TO 1997, BEARS THAT OUT.
THINGS ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THEY WERE. WE HAVE
HAD UPS AND DOWNS, AND TERRIBLE SETBACKS. BUT
PROGRESS IS BEING RECORDED. I THINK IT STILL
JUSTIFIES A CONTINUED EFFORT TO ENGAGE.
HOST: DAVID AIKMAN?
AIKMAN: I THINK ONE OF THE CRITICISMS OF BUSH, AND I
THINK IT IS VALID, IS NOT THAT WE SHOULD CEASE
TO ENGAGE CHINA. I AGREE COMPLETELY WITH DOUG
THAT IT DOES NOT MAKE ANY SENSE TO PRETEND THAT
CHINA DOES NOT EXIST. BUSH REALLY HAD A TIN EAR
FOR THE SENSE OF OUTRAGE THAT WAS EXPRESSED
GLOBALLY. AND I THINK HE SAID SOMETHING LIKE:
NOW IS NOT THE TIME TO BE EMOTIONAL. IN FACT,
THEN WAS THE TIME TO BE EMOTIONAL. I THINK
PEOPLE WANTED TO HEAR A PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED
STATES, THE GREAT CHAMPION OF FREEDOM AND
DEMOCRACY FOR TWO HUNDRED YEARS, ARTICULATE AT
A DEEP LEVEL EXACTLY WHAT THE DISASTER AT
TIANANMEN MEANT FOR AN AMERICAN.
HOST: WHAT DID IT MEAN?
AIKMAN: WHAT IT MEANT WAS THAT STUDENTS, WHO HAD NOT
STARTED WITH ANY PLAN TO OVERTHROW THE CHINESE
GOVERNMENT, IN FACT, IT REALLY STARTED, I THINK
-- XIAO QIANG, YOU WOULD PROBABLY CONFIRM THIS
-- TO PROTEST AGAINST BAD CONDITIONS AFTER
GRADUATION, CORRUPTION IN THE SYSTEM, AND THEN
HAD GOTTEN INTO A VERY WELL-DEVELOPED DEMOCRACY
MOVEMENT. THESE STUDENTS WERE NOT ONLY TRAMPLED
UPON, BUT MANY ORDINARY CITIZENS IN BEIJING WERE
JUST SHOT DOWN QUITE INNOCENTLY.
HOST: YOU WERE THERE YOURSELF?
AIKMAN: I WAS. AND IN FACT, THERE WERE FAR MORE
NON-STUDENTS KILLED THAN STUDENTS. MOST OF THE
KILLINGS DIDN'T TAKE PLACE IMMEDIATELY IN
TIANANMEN SQUARE. THEY TOOK PLACE ON CHANG-AN
AVENUE AND THE APPROACHES, AS THE MILITARY TRIED
TO CRASH THROUGH THE OBSTACLES THAT HAD BEEN PUT
IN THE PATHWAY OF THE ONCOMING CONVOY BY CHINESE
CITIZENS. AND I CAN TELL YOU, BOB, ONE OF THE
MOST DRAMATIC EVENTS TO ME, AFTER WATCHING SO
MUCH OF THE SHOOTING, WAS GOING ON A BICYCLE
AROUND BEIJING ON THE TUESDAY, WHICH WOULD HAVE
BEEN THE SIXTH, ACTUALLY MY BIRTHDAY, TALKING TO
CHINESE, BECAUSE I SPEAK THE LANGUAGE, AND
HAVING THEM COME UP TO ME AND SAY, THANK YOU FOR
BEING HERE, THANK YOU FOR TELLING THE WORLD WHAT
HAPPENED, AND REALIZING THAT, BASICALLY, THE
STRUCTURE OF COMMUNIST RULE HAD BROKEN DOWN IN
THE ENTIRE CITY OF BEIJING. YOU COULDN'T SEE A
PERSON IN UNIFORM UNTIL THEY BEGAN TO RESUME BUS
TRAVEL ACROSS THE CITY AND NORMALITY WAS
RETURNED.
HOST: AS AN EYE WITNESS, LET ME ASK YOU WHAT THINK OF
THE OFFICIAL EXPLANATIONS BY THE CHINESE
GOVERNMENT AND COMMUNIST PARTY?
AIKMAN: WELL, THE OFFICIAL EXPLANATION SAID THAT THIS
WAS COUNTER-REVOLUTIONARY HOOLIGANS. THAT IS
ABSOLUTE NONSENSE. SURE, THERE PROBABLY WERE
SOME HOOLIGANS, AS THERE ALWAYS WILL BE IN ANY
POLITICAL DEMONSTRATION. BUT THE OVERWHELMING
SENTIMENT OF THE PEOPLE WAS NOT TO OVERTHROW THE
CHINESE GOVERNMENT, BUT WAS TO DEMAND A
REDRESSAL OF HUMAN RIGHTS THAT HAD CLEARLY NOT
BEEN DEALT WITH, EVEN AS CHINA WAS ADVANCING
ECONOMICALLY AND IN OTHER AREAS OF LIFE. MOST
ORDINARY PEOPLE IN BEIJING, BY THE TIME OF THE
TIANANMEN MASSACRE, WERE COMPLETELY BEHIND THE
STUDENTS BECAUSE THEY KNEW THAT THEY WERE NOT
PEOPLE OF MALICE.
HOST: XIAO QIANG, I WANT TO QUOTE TO YOU FROM A RECENT
STATEMENT MADE BY THE HEAD OF THE OFFICIAL
GOVERNMENT CHINA HUMAN RIGHTS SOCIETY, ZHU
MUZHI. AND HE SPOKE OF THE TIANANMEN MASSACRE AS
"CRACKING DOWN ON FLIES," AS QUOTED IN AGENCE
FRANCE PRESSE. WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF
HEARING SOMETHING LIKE THIS TEN YEARS LATER?
XIAO: ZHU MUZHI IS A MOUTHPIECE OF XINHUA NEWS AGENCY,
HEAD OF IT FOR MANY, MANY YEARS. TO THAT EXENT,
HIS COMMENT IS NONSENSE. WHAT HAPPENED TEN
YEARS AGO IS THAT, FOR THE FIRST TIME IN
THOUSANDS OF YEARS, THE CHINESE PEOPLE HAD THE
AIR OF FREEDOM, TO STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES, NOT
BEGGING FOR BETTER MASTERS, BUT FOR THEMSELVES,
AND HAD A TASTE OF FREEDOM. AND THAT SWEET,
PRECIOUS TASTE, THAT MOMENT, BEING SO BRUTALLY
KILLED BY THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT. AND THAT
DREAM IS STILL THERE. AND THE BASIC DEMAND OF
ANTI-CORRUPTION AND DEMOCRACY ARE STILL A DREAM
IN CHINESE SOCIETY TODAY. I ALSO CAN SAY THAT
TIANANMEN BELONGS TO THE WORLD. I THINK THE
DEMONSTRATION AND THE CRY AND DESIRE OF THE
CHINESE PEOPLE HAPPENED IN EVERYBODY'S LIVING
ROOM AND TV SETS. AND THE KILLING HAPPENED IN
FRONT OF ALL OF US. AND THAT KIND OF CRIME
AGAINST HUMANITY -- THERE IS NO WAY ANY
APOLOGIST FROM ANY POLITICAL CALCULATION CAN
DEFEND IT.
HOST: DOUGLAS PAAL, EARLIER THIS YEAR AT THE PEOPLE'S
CONGRESS, A PETITION WAS CIRCULATED BY A PARTY
MEMBER, SAYING WE SHOULD RECONSIDER OUR JUDGMENT
ON TIANANMEN. WHAT IS AT STAKE IN THAT
RECONSIDERATION? AND WHY IS THE PARTY SO
RESISTANT TO IT? IS IT THAT THEY THINK THEY
WOULD DELEGITIMIZE THEMSELVES AND THEY WOULD
LOSE THEIR AUTHORITY?
PAAL: I WOULD PUT IT DIFFERENTLY. I THINK THAT NO
REGIME IN CHINA WILL BE FULLY LEGITIMATE UNTIL
IT CONFRONTS ITS OWN HISTORY HONESTLY. IT WILL
ALWAYS HAVE AN ELEMENT OF ILLEGITIMACY IF IT
TRIES TO COVER UP INJUSTICES SUCH AS TOOK PLACE
AT TIANANMEN. OR AT OTHER TIMES IN MODERN
CHINESE HISTORY UNDER THE SAME REGIME. THIS IS
A SOMEWHAT UNIQUE INSTANCE, BUT ALSO IT IS NOT
COMPLETELY UNIQUE AS AN EVENT IN CHINESE
HISTORY. THERE WAS A SIMILAR SUPPRESSION IN
1976, BUT WE DIDN'T HAVE CAMERAS TO SEE IT AT
THE TIME. SO THE REGIME HAS TO ADDRESS THIS AT
SOME POINT IF IT IS FULLY TO LEGITIMIZE ITSELF.
AND THEY KNOW THAT. I THINK THEY KNOW THAT AT
THEIR CORE. BUT THEY ALSO HAVE TO PAPER OVER
DIFFERENCES AMONG GROUPS AND FACTIONS. THEY HAVE
TO SUPPORT THE SUCCESSION MECHANISM THAT HAS PUT
THE CURRENT LEADERS IN PLACE BY NOT PUTTING IN
DOUBT THE LEGACY OF DENG XIAOPING, WHO ORDERED
THE ATTACK ON TIANANMEN. HOW THEY GET ACROSS
THE BRIDGE FROM THE UNREALITY OF THE CURRENT
DESCRIPTION OF THE JUDGMENT OF TIANANMEN TO THE
REALITY IS REALLY A VERY DANGEROUS TRANSIT FOR
THEM, AND IT IS GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME. I
WOULD HAVE HOPED THAT PROSPERITY AND STABILITY
WOULD HAVE ALLOWED THEM TO OPEN THE DEBATE AND
MOVE IN THAT DIRECTION. BUT IN RECENT MONTHS,
WE HAVE SEEN THEM STEP BACK FROM FEAR OF
INSTABILITY, FEAR OF THEIR OWN PEOPLE, AND
ECONOMIC TURMOIL.
HOST: IN FACT, THE UNITED STATES, WHICH THIS YEAR
OFFERED A RESOLUTION ON THE ABUSE OF HUMAN
RIGHTS IN CHINA AT THE U-N HUMAN RIGHTS
COMMISSION, HAD NOT DONE IT THE YEAR BEFORE
BECAUSE OF IMPROVEMENT. AND WE HAVE SEEN THIS
KIND OF SETBACK. DO YOU AGREE THAT THOSE ARE
THE CAUSES OF THAT SETBACK?
AIKMAN: I NEVER HAD ANY FEELING IN MY MIND THAT THE
COMMUNIST REGIME WOULD ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT HAPPENED
AT TIANANMEN TRUTHFULLY, AND WOULD DO WHAT
REGIMES HAVE DONE IN THE PAST, WHICH IS CALL FOR
A REVERSAL OF THE HISTORICAL VERDICT, BECAUSE TO
DO SO WOULD HAVE PUT THE BLAME SQUARELY ON THE
SHOULDERS OF LI PENG, THE PREMIER AT THE TIME,
PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST WIDELY DISLIKED
POLITICAL LEADERS IN MODERN POLITICAL HISTORY,
AND IT ALSO WOULD HAVE SEVERELY TARNISHED THE
RECORD OF DENG XIAOPING, WHICH IN ECONOMIC AND
MANY SOCIAL WAYS IS A CREDITABLE RECORD, BECAUSE
HE WAS THE MAN WHO ULTIMATELY PULLED THE
TRIGGER. I THINK THAT IT WOULD BE VERY, VERY
DIFFICLT FOR ANY CHINESE COMMUNIST REGIME TO
COME TO TERMS WITH WHAT HAPPENED AT TIANANMEN.
YOU HAVE GOT ORDINARY CHINESE CITIZENS WHO HAVE
BULLETS THAT THEY HAVE STORED UP AND CAREFULLY
COLLECTED IN CELLARS, AND BITS OF UNIFORM AND
BITS OF TANKS, THAT PROVE WHAT HAPPENED IN
UNEQUIVOCAL TERMS. IT WOULD BE VERY DIFFICULT
FOR ANY CHINESE COMMUNIST REGIME TO ACKNOWLEDGE
THAT WITHOUT SAYING, ESSENTIALLY, OUR CLAIM TO
LEGITIMACY IS NOT VALID. IT IS BASED UPON A
LIE.
HOST: THEY ARE ATTEMPTING TO MAKE SURE NO ONE
ACKNOWLEDGES IT IN CHINA, AND ESPECIALLY IN
BEIJING, BECAUSE THEY ROUNDED UP ALL SORTS OF
PEOPLE BEFORE THE ANNIVERSARY. LET ME ASK YOU
ALL THIS QUESTION. DOUGLAS PAAL MENTIONED THE
DIFFICULT TRANSIT FROM WHAT REALLY HAPPENED TO
WHAT THEY SAY, BUT THERE ARE A NUMBER OF
DIFFICULT TRANSITS TO BE MADE IN CHINA. LET'S
SAY THEY HAVE MADE PERHAPS THE EASIEST ECONOMIC
REFORMS. PEOPLE SAY IN CHINA TODAY NO ONE
REALLY BELIEVES IN COMMUNISM, THOUGH THEY HAVE
THEIR IDEOLOGICAL CAMPAIGNS TO TRY TO
RESUSCITATE MARXIST IDEOLOGY, AND THAT THE
LEGITIMACY OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THE PARTY RESTS
UPON ECONOMIC PROGRESS. BUT ECONOMIC PROGRESS
CAN ONLY NOW CONTINUE IF THEY UNDERTAKE THE MOST
DIFFICULT REFORMS, WHICH MOST DIFFICULT REFORMS
WILL LEAD TO SOCIAL TURMOIL. WHAT IS GOING TO
HAPPEN NEXT THERE, AND WHAT SHOULD THE U.S.
ATTITUDE BE TOWARD IT?
XIAO: FIRST OF ALL, I UNDERSTAND AND I THINK I AGREE A
LOT WITH DAVID'S ANALYSIS OF WHY IT IS SO
IMPOSSIBLE AND DIFFICULT FOR THE COMMUNIST
REGIME TO ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE,
REALLY, IN TIANANMEN TEN YEARS AGO. HOWEVER, I
WANT TO BRING ANOTHER ARGUMENT, WHICH IS: MY
ORGANIZATION HAS BEEN ACTIVELY WORKING WITH THE
PEOPLE IN CHINA TO MAKE A DEMAND OF THE CURRENT
LEADERSHIP TO ACTUALLY ACKNOWLEDGE THAT
TIANANMEN WAS A CRIME AND, THROUGH A REVERSAL OF
THE VERDICT, TO REGAIN A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF
LEGITIMACY AND INITIATIVE OF CHINA'S POLITICAL
LIBERALIZATION. THE REASON IS THAT, RIGHT
AFTER THE MASSACRE, DENG XIAOPING MADE A NEW
DEAL WITH THE CHINESE PEOPLE: YOU LEAVE THE
CHINESE COMMUNIST PARTY THE POWER, AND YOU WILL
HAVE FREEDOM TO MAKE MONEY. BUT TODAY, TEN
YEARS LATER, IF WE LEARN ANYTHING FROM THE ASIAN
FINANCIAL CRISIS, WE KNOW THAT UNLESS THERE IS
FUNDAMENTAL STRUCTURAL REFORM HAPPENING IN CHINA
-- TRANSPARENCY, FREE FLOW OF INFORMATION, GOOD
GOVERNANCE, RULE OF LAW -- ALL THESE THINGS
REQUIRE POLITICAL REFORM. AND THE REASON THE
CHINESE GOVERNMENT CANNOT DO POLITICAL REFORM IS
THAT IT DOES NOT HAVE A VISION AGENDA. THEY DO
NOT KNOW HOW TO GET AROUND THIS TIANANMEN ISSUE.
SO IT IS NOT JUST HISTORY. IT IS IN THE CENTER
OF CHINESE POLITICAL LIFE.
HOST: DAVID AIKMAN.
AIKMAN: BUT THERE IS ACTUALLY A PRECEDENT FOR
ACKNOWLEDGING WHAT HAPPENED, AND DOUG MENTIONED
THE 1976 EVENTS, THE SO-CALLED THE FIFTH OF
APRIL EVENTS, WHEN THERE WAS A HUGE
DEMONSTRATION SEVERELY PUT DOWN BY THE THEN GANG
OF FOUR. AND WHEN THE GANG OF FOUR WAS
OVERTHROWN IN 1976 AND DENG XIAOPING CAME TO
POWER IN 1978, THERE WAS A FAIRLY OPEN
DISCUSSION OF WHAT HAPPENED. I THINK IT IS
CONCEIVABLE FOR A CHINESE LEADER TO BRING
FORWARD THE BARE FACTS OF WHAT HAPPENED WITHOUT
NECESSARILY REQUIRING THAT THE REGIME COMPLETELY
COMMIT SUICIDE. I THINK MOST CHINESE DO NOT
WANT TO SEE SUDDEN POLITICAL CHANGE IN CHINA.
THEY ARE TERRIFIED OF THE KIND OF CHAOS OF THE
FORMER SOVIET UNION. CHINESE WANT AN ORDERLY,
STRUCTURAL IMPLEMENTATION OF DEMOCRATIC REFORMS,
NOT SOME KIND OF VIOLENT DEMOCRATIC REVOLUTION.
IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE IF YOU HAD A LEADER IN THE
COMMUNIST PARTY WITH THE VISION AND THE HONESTY
TO CARRY THIS THROUGH AND TO SAY, RIGHT, THIS IS
WHERE WE GO FROM HERE ON. WE ARE GOING TO ASK
FOR SOME KIND OF LEGITIMACY. I THINK IT IS
DOABLE.
HOST: I WANT TO GET DOUGLAS PAAL'S REACTION TO WHAT
XIAO QIANG SAID HERE, WHICH, IF I CAN
REINTERPRET YOUR QUESTION SLIGHTLY, IS SAYING TO
CHINA THAT, BASICALLY, YOU HAVE TWO AVENUES TO
THE FUTURE. ONE IS THE SOUTH KOREAN AVENUE OF
FUNDAMENTAL STRUCTURAL REFORMS, AND THE OTHER IS
THE INDONESIAN AVENUE WHERE ECONOMIC COLLAPSE
WILL LEAD TO POLITICAL TURMOIL AND THE END OF
YOUR REGIME.
PAAL: I THINK THE CHINESE HAVE FLIRTED WITH
CONSIDERATION OF THIS TWO PATH CHOICE. AND IN
THE TWO YEARS RUNNING UP TO LAST AUTUMN, THERE
WERE HINTS OF A LIBERALIZATION WITH POLITICAL
DIALOGUE, AN OPENING TO GREATER DEMOCRACY. I
THINK THAT JIANG ZEMIN AND ZHU RONGJI AND SOME
OF THE BRIGHT YOUNG GUYS AROUND THEM KNOW THAT
THEY HAVE TO OPEN THE SYSTEM TO COMPETITION OF
IDEAS AS WELL AS COMPETITION OF BUSINESS IF THEY
ARE GOING TO BE A MORE ROBUST AND SURVIVABLE
REGIME. AS WE GOT THROUGH THE ECONOMIC CRISIS,
AS EXPORTS SLOWED, AS UNEMPLOYMENT GREW
DRAMATICALLY, THEY GOT NERVOUS ABOUT IT. AND
THAT'S WHERE THEY ARE NOW. THEY WANT TO GET
THROUGH THIS ANNIVERSARY. I THINK THEY WANT TO
COME BACK TO A MORE LIBERAL ATMOSPHERE IF THEY
CAN RESTART THE GROWTH. THEY ARE EAGER TO
RESTART GROWTH. THAT WAS PART OF THE REASON
ZHU RONGJI CAME TO THE U.S. AND MADE A FAIRLY
GENEROUS OFFER TO GET WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION
MEMBERSHIP. THEY WANT TO BRING ABOUT THE
ECONOMIC REFORMS THAT WILL GET THE ECONOMY GOING
AND THAT WILL BUOY THEM AS THEY GO THROUGH OTHER
KINDS OF CHANGE.
HOST: LET ME QUICKLY JUST GET THE REACTIONS OF ALL OF
YOU. WITH ALL THESE TENSIONS BETWEEN THE U.S.
AND CHINA NOW -- THE BOMBING OF THE EMBASSY IN
BELGRADE, THE CHINA NUCLEAR ESPIONAGE, ET CETERA
-- THE WORLD TRADE ORGANIZATION, SHOULD THE U.S.
SUPPORT CHINA'S ENTRY INTO THE W-T-O?
XIAO: LET ME SAY THAT ALL THESE ISSUES THAT YOU JUST
MENTIONED ARE VERY IMPORTANT, BUT IT DOES NOT
TAKE THE ISSUE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AWAY FROM THE
CENTER OF CHINA'S DEVELOPMENT AND POLITICAL
LIFE. I WANT TO GO BACK AND AGREE WITH WHAT
DAVID SAID, HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA AND THE ENTIRE
CHINESE DEMOCRACY AND HUMAN RIGHTS MOVEMENT
BELIEVE IN THE PEACEFUL, GRADUAL, ORDERLY CHANGE
OF CHINA'S FUNDAMENTAL SYSTEM. TO US, WHO LEARN
FROM THIS CENTURY OR EVEN EARLIER, THOSE KINDS
OF CHANGES ONLY HAPPEN WHEN THERE IS A VITAL
CIVIL SOCIETY, GRASS ROOTS DEMANDS FOR CHANGE.
SECOND, IT HAS TO BE FROM TOP DOWN. THE
LEADERSHIP HAS TO RECOGNIZE THIS IMPORTANCE, AND
IT TAKES A LEADER TO OPEN UP THE SYSTEM. DENG
XIAOPING DID THAT ON THE ECONOMIC SIDE. WE HAVE
TO HAVE THIS NEW LEADERSHIP TO LEAD CHINA FROM
WHERE WE ARE NOW TO A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY THAT
RESPECTS HUMAN RIGHTS. I DO NOT SEE THAT CHINA
HAS ANOTHER ALTERNATIVE. SO THE CHINESE
GOVERNMENT MUST, SOONER BETTER THAN LATER,
ACKNOWLEDGE THAT TIANANMEN WAS A CRIME AGAINST
THE CHINESE PEOPLE AND REVERSE THE VERDICT. AND
THAT IS THE ONLY PATH TO NATIONAL RECONCILIATION
AND JUSTICE.
HOST: I'M AFRAID THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE THIS
WEEK. I'D LIKE TO THANK OUR GUESTS -- XIAO
QIANG FROM HUMAN RIGHTS IN CHINA; DOUGLAS PAAL
FROM THE ASIA PACIFIC POLICY CENTER; AND DAVID
AIKMAN FROM THE ETHICS AND PUBLIC POLICY CENTER
-- FOR JOINING ME TO DISCUSS THE TENTH
ANNIVERSARY OF TIANANMEN SQUARE. THIS IS ROBERT
REILLY FOR ON THE LINE.
02-Jun-99 1:27 PM EDT (1727 UTC)
NNNN
Source: Voice of America
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