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21 May 1999

TRANSCRIPT: 5/20 DAS SUSAN SHIRK WORLDNET ON U.S.-CHINA RELATIONS

(U.S. won't let embassy bombing sidetrack China partnership) (3810)
Washington -- The United States has acknowledged its responsibility
for the accidental bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade and is
determined not to let it deflect the administration from its course of
working together with China to build toward a constructive strategic
partnership, according to Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for East
Asian and Pacific Affairs Susan Shirk.
During an appearance on USIA's Worldnet "Dialogue" program May 20,
Shirk referred to the accidental bombing as causing "a crisis in
U.S.-China relations, meaning that the PRC government has broken off
cooperation with the United States in pretty much every area. Visits
have been canceled, ship visits, military-to-military exchanges --
discussions of all the various issues that we have been working on,
ranging from non-proliferation, human rights, whatever."
Shirk said she was encouraged, however, that most of those contacts
have been postponed and not scrapped permanently. "We hope that when
emotions are calm that we will get back to cooperation," she said.
"In the long term I hope that this tragic accident doesn't deflect our
two countries from the efforts we have been making over the past few
years to work together in a way that really is good not just for the
people of our two countries, but people in Asia, other countries as
well," she said. "Because if the U.S. and China can work together, all
sorts of good things can be accomplished, and to the contrary if we
have a hostile relationship it would be a very dangerous situation for
all of us."
Shirk said it would be more helpful if, on the Chinese side, press
rhetoric were a little more open minded. "If everyone jumps to
conclusion that what we did was intentional, of course what that means
is that the President of the United States authorized the bombing of
the Chinese Embassy. I mean, this is so contrary to everything that we
are trying to accomplish."
"It's important," Shirk said, "that the people of both countries keep
a long-term perspective, and remember why our leaders and our
governments were working so hard, why President Jiang came to the
United States, why President Clinton visited China, why Premier Zhu
came here. These leaders were putting a lot on the line, because all
of them believed that it was in the interests of their own people to
have a decent constructive relationship with China or with the United
States. So there were good reasons, and those reasons are still
valid."
Following is a transcript of the program:
(begin transcript)
WORLDNET "DIALOGUE"
UNITED STATES INFORMATION AGENCY
Television and Film Service of Washington, D.C.
GUEST:    Dr. Susan Shirk, Deputy Assistant Secretary for East
Asian and Pacific Affairs, U.S. Department of State
TOPIC:    U.S.-China Relations
HOST:     Judlyne Lilly
DATE:     May 20, 1999
MS. LILLY: Hello, and welcome to Worldnet's "Dialogue," I'm your host
Judlyne Lilly. U.S.-China relations are currently experiencing unusual
challenges due to the NATO bombing of the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade,
and other events related to national security.
Citizens of both countries are puzzled by the recent developments, and
concerned about the importance of this important bilateral
relationship.
To discuss the future of U.S.-Sino relations, I am honored to
introduce Dr. Susan Shirk, the U.S. deputy assistant secretary of
State for East Asian and Pacific affairs. Dr. Shirk has been
professionally involved in U.S.-China relations for over 10 years, and
has written several books on China. Dr. Shirk, thank you so much for
joining us today.
First, let's take a look back on the recent tragic bombing of the
Chinese Embassy in Belgrade. Defense Secretary William Cohen explains
how the accident happened:
SEC. COHEN (from videotape): In simple terms, one of our planes
attacked the wrong target, because the bombing instructions were based
on an outdated map.
MS. LILLY: Now, I was wondering, Dr. Shirk, if you had anything at all
to add to Secretary Cohen's statement?
DR. SHIRK: Well, Secretary Cohen spoke last week with just our very
initial understanding of what had happened. And since that time the
Defense Department and our intelligence agencies have been doing a
very thorough investigation to really get all the facts and to
understand how this accident could have happened despite all of our
advanced technology and our excellent methods. So we are preparing an
investigation which we will make public, as well as present to the
Chinese government, and we certainly hope and expect the Chinese
government will make it public to the Chinese public as well.
MS. LILLY: NATO and the U.S. have both said it was an accident, and
President Clinton has apologized.
PRESIDENT CLINTON (from videotape): It was a tragic mistake, and I
want to offer my sincere regret and my condolences to both the leaders
and the people of China.
MS. LILLY: Now, what other actions did the U.S. and NATO take in the
wake of this accidental bombing since the President's apology?
DR. SHIRK: Well, first of all I think it's important to understand
that the minute we heard about this tragic event, the United States
government has been apologizing. Starting right from that evening, our
U.N. ambassador went into the Security Council and expressed the
apologies of our government. Since then, the President, the secretary
of State, the secretary of Defense, have apologized both publicly and
privately in letters and phone calls to the Chinese people, to the
government. They've expressed their heart-felt condolences to the
families of the innocent victims of this terrible accident. The
President signed the condolence books here at the Chinese Embassy to
communicate his sympathy and condolences personally and on behalf of
the government. All of our missions in China flew the flag at half
mast on the day when remains of the victims were returned to China. So
we have done what we can to express our deep and sincere sorrow and
our remorse, our embarrassment, our contrition at this accident.
MS. LILLY: Now, will the U.S. be meeting China's demands for a formal
apology and investigation into what occurred, and punishment perhaps
of those responsible?
DR. SHIRK: Well, we are responding in what we feel to be the
appropriate way. As I mentioned just now, we have expressed our
feelings, our apologies and our condolences as best we can. Then we
are going on to do this investigation, as Secretary Cohen explained
last week. And this investigation is important for us and for our own
people, as well as for the Chinese, because it is very difficult to
believe that such a tragic accident could occur. And we want to
understand why it happened, and we also want to make sure it doesn't
happen again. So we are definitely going to get to the bottom of it,
and we are going to communicate the results.
As to punishing the criminal or the personal responsible, Secretary
Cohen did not preclude that, but we will have to wait to see what
turns up in the investigation.
MS. LILLY: All right. And how do you assess the Chinese reaction to
these events?
DR. SHIRK: Well, it was obviously a very strong emotional reaction,
and I understand that very well, because most of the people in China
believe, and have been told, that it was intentional. Now, if I saw
that some other country bombed innocent journalists and diplomats in
one of our embassies, I would be absolutely furious as well. So I
understand the reaction. I can empathize with the reaction. But I hope
that when we get the facts out and explain that, as unbelievable as it
may be, this really was an accident, that some of the very strong
feelings will cool, and people will remember why it is in the
interests of both China and the United States to have a decent
relationship with one another.
MS. LILLY: Well, why do you think there continues to be a widespread
misunderstanding about what happened in Belgrade to the Chinese
Embassy?
DR. SHIRK: Well, I have to say one reason is that, as I read Chinese
media reports, they're based on the assumption that it was
intentional. And that's kind of frustrating to us, frankly, because at
least it seems to me people ought to keep an open mind and look at the
facts and see whether they believe it was intentional or not. A second
reason is that there -- you know, people in China are very proud, and
this accident first of all was in the context of a military conflict
that they don't support -- they don't agree with what we are doing in
Yugoslavia. And, secondly, there are still some very deep suspicions
in both our countries towards one another, and a lack of willingness
to trust that the intentions are benign rather than malign.
So I think all of these things are factors. And, again, as I said, our
hope is that when the facts are out, even though it may be kind of
incredible that such an accident could occur on the part of the United
States, that I hope that people will recognize it was an honest
mistake.
MS. LILLY: Now, what impact do you think all of this will have on
U.S.-China relations?
DR. SHIRK: Well, obviously in the short term it's something of a
shock, even a crisis in U.S.-China relations, meaning that the PRC
government has broken off cooperation with the United States in pretty
much every area. Visits have been canceled, ship visits,
military-to-military exchanges -- discussions of all the various
issues that we have been working on, ranging from non-proliferation,
human rights, whatever. And on the other hand, I am encouraged that
these are being postponed and not scrapped permanently. So we hope
that when emotions are calm that we will get back to cooperation.
In the long term I hope that this tragic accident doesn't deflect our
two countries from the efforts we have been making over the past few
years to work together in a way that really is good not just for the
people of our two countries, but people in Asia, other countries as
well. Because if the U.S. and China can work together, all sorts of
good things can be accomplished, and to the contrary if we have a
hostile relationship it would be a very dangerous situation for all of
us.
MS. LILLY: Well, how does the prospect for China's accession to the
World Trade Organization and the talks on this issue between the U.S.
and China, how does what happened in Belgrade and the ensuing
problems, how does this affect that?
DR. SHIRK: Well, it has affected them in the short term, because we
had hoped to be back at the negotiating table again this week, and we
are not, because the Chinese government has basically told our
negotiators not to come. On the other hand, we are encouraged that the
government -- Premier Zhu Rongji and all the leaders -- have signaled
that China still wants to join the WTO. They would like to see it
happen this year. And of course on our side President Clinton has
committed us to bringing China into the WTO this year, so that in
November when we have a WTO ministerial the Chinese trade minister
will be there. So that will is still there. I expect that after a
couple of weeks we will be back at the negotiating table, and that's
certainly what we hope will happen.
MS. LILLY: Now, what is at stake in U.S.-China relations? We've talked
here a little bit about some of the things that have been postponed
and some of the problems. What is at stake specifically with
U.S.-China relations?
DR. SHIRK: Well, frankly, I think we can't exaggerate the significance
of this relationship. I know officials in the United States have said
many times it's the most important foreign policy relationship for the
United States, and there are people in China who have said the same
thing about China's relationship with the United States. You know,
with the end of the Cold War there is such a potential here for
reduction of tension, for us to channel our energies and resources in
all countries, including the U.S. and China, into productive
activities, into improving the health and welfare of our people.
Rather than arms buildups and mutual suspicions and risk of conflict,
including nuclear conflict. So it's wonderful to think that our
children -- there's a chance our children will grow up in a world in
which they don't have those fears.
Now, if the United States and China can learn to et along, to work on
problems like the Korean Peninsula, a peaceful and nonnuclear Korean
Peninsula, prevention of a nuclear arms race between India and
Pakistan, preserving peace in the Asia-Pacific region -- you know,
this is so clearly the positive potential here in U.S.-China
relations, and we hope that we are able to achieve it.
MS. LILLY: Well, what are some of the things each country can do to
help move beyond this terrible accident and to further its own
national interests?
DR. SHIRK: Well, first of all, on our part we are determined not to
let this horrible accident which we were responsible for deflect us
from our course of working together with China to build toward a
constructive strategic partnership. We want to get back to discussion
of all these different issues we are working on together. We want to
continue to have high level visits. We want to have
military-to-military cooperation, and we are determined to do that.
From China's side, I think it would be very helpful if the press
rhetoric were a little more open minded. If everyone jumps to
conclusion that what we did was intentional, of course what that means
is that the President of the United States authorized the bombing of
the Chinese Embassy. I mean, this is so contrary to everything that we
are trying to accomplish. There is just no reason for us ever to want
to do something like that, and it violates all the international
norms. So I hope that the press reports will be a little more open
minded. I certainly hope that once we communicate the results, the
findings of our review, the Chinese government will also communicate
those to the Chinese people, and then again get back to work with us
building towards a partnership as soon as possible.
MS. LILLY: Well, in the wake of this tragedy, while the emotions are
still high, is there anything that can be done so that the two
countries can work through this and work together?
DR. SHIRK: Well, I think it's important that the people of both
countries keep a long-term perspective, and remember why our leaders
and our governments were working so hard, why President Jiang came to
the United States, why President Clinton visited China, why Premier
Zhu came here. These leaders were putting a lot on the line, because
all of them believed that it was in the interests of their own people
to have a decent constructive relationship with China or with the
United States. So there were good reasons, and those reasons are still
valid.
MS. LILLY: All right, now, is NATO intervention in Kosovo, Yugoslavia
a precedent for future interventions in other countries, including
China?
DR. SHIRK: Well, I know this is a question that many people in China
are asking, and it certainly is not. The situation in Yugoslavia was
uniquely dangerous. It does not imply any precedent of future
intervention. The ethnic cleansing, the atrocities and terror that the
Serbian government under Milosevic was inflicting upon their own
people, the Albanians in Kosovo, was really atrocious, and it was a
threat to the stability of that whole region. And that was the
conclusion that NATO came to. And so the intervention was taken under
very extreme and special circumstances.
It is impossible that we would intervene in a country like China to,
say, change the way China treats the Tibetans. I mean, this would
never occur, because although we have some critiques of the way the
Chinese government handles the Tibetan autonomous region, we would
like to see greater religious freedom, cultural expression for the
Tibetans there, and we discuss this with people in the Chinese
government from Jiang Zemin on down. But we are handling this in a
completely peaceful way through diplomacy. And in any case, China has
a nuclear deterrent. I don't think anybody is going to intervene in
China militarily, because the risk would be too great.
MS. LILLY: Well, in October 1997, President Jiang visited the U.S.,
and in early April the Chinese premier was in Washington and New York,
and a number of other cities in the United States. Also, our U.S.
Commerce Secretary Daley led a U.S. business delegation to China. How
important were those high-level visits to U.S.-China relations, and
how will they help us this time?
DR. SHIRK: Well, we have used high level visits to try to deepen
understanding and drive tangible cooperation in U.S.-China relations,
because they're useful, what we call action-forcing events. You know,
if we know that the President or vice President are going to go to
China, we are going to accelerate our efforts to come to some
conclusions in the various talks we're having on non-proliferation or
human rights or trade or environment or law enforcement. So they kind
of punctuate our continuous discussions and drive progress. Plus,
people pay attention -- the publics pay attention when senior leaders
are visiting one another, and this helps build support from the public
for mutual engagement, which is important.
And finally, in all countries the commitment of our leaders to a
foreign policy relationship and the ability of the leaders to
understand each other as human beings, as individuals, is also very
important. And I think it's very significant that President Clinton
and President Jiang, as well as Premier Zhu, have really developed a
good understanding with one another. And that helps provide some of
the glue that may keep this relationship together, even though we are
going through some rocky times right now.
MS. LILLY: You spoke of events and exchanges that have been postponed
because of the accidental bombing. What about when do you think those
high level visits, or even those events and exchanges, might occur?
DR. SHIRK: I hope soon. Really it's up to the Chinese government.
We're ready. We'll get on airplanes with -- give us a little bit of
notice -- pack our bags and we'll be there. And I hope it occurs soon,
because if there is too long a delay -- I mean, we understand this is
a mourning period. It's natural to call these things off for a certain
period of time -- so that's fine. But I hope it's not too long,
because the kind of progress we've made and the understandings that we
have built up have taken a lot of mutual effort, and it would really
be a shame to waste it and let it wither away. And we do that really
at the jeopardy of the people of both our countries.
MS. LILLY: Now, in your opinion how should the U.S. and China work
together to build constructive bilateral relations from here? What are
some of our common interests?
DR. SHIRK: We actually have a lot of common interests. In fact, there
are no major conflicts of interests. I mean, there is no reason why
the United States and China -- as China grows stronger and more active
in the world -- should not work together very cooperatively. We both
want a peaceful nonnuclear Korean Peninsula. We have been working
together very well in the four-party talks and trying to encourage
restraint on North Korea's part in its nuclear program, its missile
program. So that has actually been going very, very well, and I hope
that will continue.
We have similar perspectives on South Asia. In fact, when the Indian
government tested a nuclear weapon, and Pakistan responded with its
own, China and the United States led the Security Council -- actually,
China led, and the U.S. helped China -- supported China and
coordinated efforts within the Security Council to devise a direction
to try to prevent a nuclear arms race in South Asia.
I think our efforts in the Middle East also are pretty closely
aligned, because we are both big oil importers, and neither country
really wants conflict in the Persian Gulf-Middle East area.
So the environment -- you know, we both are major contributors to
global warming, we both have an interest in having a clean global
environment for our children in the next century. So our economies are
highly complementary, and we have a lot to benefit from trading with
one another. And so it seems to me that there are differences in
political systems, difference in perceptions based on history and
culture. But if we can overcome them then there is no reason we
shouldn't be able to work together very well.
MS. LILLY: And, quickly, our shared -- we have shared goals -- we
talked about that. What are some of those challenges that will require
diplomacy, that sort of diplomacy that will keep us together with
those shared goals?
DR. SHIRK: Well, I think the challenges I just mentioned right now,
the fact that we do have different histories, different political
systems, different cultural perspectives. And unfortunately in both
countries there are still people who are prepared to think the worst
of one another, who just assume that the other is a natural enemy. And
I think that -- you know, I've heard my Chinese colleagues say that's
a legacy of the Cold War, and I think in some ways that's correct. So
there are these conceptual and perceptual problems that we need to
overcome.
But I think we have made a lot of progress over the past few years.
This terrible tragic accident that we are responsible for is a real --
and the Chinese reaction to it -- is a real setback. But I'm still
optimistic. I've been traveling to China, working with China since
1971. I've seen a lot of changes and ebbs and flows, and I still
expect that we are going to come closer together and work together
quite well in the future.
MS. LILLY: Well, we are out of time, believe it or not. And I want to
thank you, and all of you in our audience today -- Dr. Shirk, also for
taking the time for being with us here on Worldnet's "Dialogue." I'm
Judlyne Lilly. Until next time, good day.
(end transcript)