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Senior State Department Official on Democracy and Human Rights Issues

Special Briefing
Office of the Spokesperson
Press Correspondents' Room
Washington, D.C.
December 16, 2019

MODERATOR: All right, we'll take some questions.

QUESTION: Can I –

MODERATOR: Please, Matt.

QUESTION: The OSCE – thank you. You did or did not go to the OSCE regular meeting? (Inaudible) confused about this.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: We – I – the short answer is we went for a little while, but we did – our job was really more to cover the civil society space and the human rights space. That really wasn't the main focus of the ministerial.

QUESTION: Okay. So you mentioned that there was concern, particularly from Ukrainians or from the filmmaker –

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: From all – from all of them.

QUESTION: From everyone, okay – about what – is the U.S. with them or not with them. At the very same time you were there, Foreign Minister Lavrov was here and having his picture taken with the President in the Oval Office. President Zelensky still has not had a White House meeting. So I assume that there is a fair amount of skepticism when you say, "Yeah, we're with you." Can – how do you overcome that, especially given the President's predilection for doing things that undermine your argument?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I don't think they undermine it at all, first of all.

QUESTION: Oh, really? You don't think that a photograph of the President with Lavrov in the Oval Office is undermining you?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: No, I mean, because – no.

QUESTION: No?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: No, I don't.

QUESTION: Okay.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: No, because you have to be – in order to – you're going to – there are two kinds of relationships. There are good relationships and there are bad relationships, right, and then there's a continuum in between the really good and the really bad. You have to be engaged at the highest level, even if the relationship is dicey. We are engaged at the ground level, I mean, so there's no doubt among the people with whom we're dealing that – they just want reassurance who is this new guy in town, meaning me, and am I going to be just as committed to the stuff that we're doing and being – and part of it was just showing up and showing the flag. So I don't see that there's any conceivable – I mean, this is – we're too far down on the food chain to be affected by any of what happens –

QUESTION: Can I follow up real quickly?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Sure.

QUESTION: Because also Giuliani was in Ukraine meeting with some very shady characters. I wonder if any of your interlocutors, the human rights advocates, raised any concerns about that.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: This is – their day-to-day existence is at the level of the neighborhood, so –

QUESTION: Yeah, but I mean, these were people that are, like, prosecutors that prosecuted human rights activists and not corruption. So that's why I'm wondering if they raised those concerns with you.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: No, they said nothing of the sort. I mean, this is not – this would really be – this is more like going to the people who work in the local neighborhood legal aid. This is not – they don't care what's happening up there. That's –

QUESTION: They didn't care that Giuliani was meeting with those people?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: They – I can't speak for them. All I can say is it never came up.

MODERATOR: Next. Carol.

QUESTION: To follow up on that also, Secretary Pompeo is – and Brian Hook are always saying we can't deal with Iran when we know how they treat their own citizens. Why can't you say the same thing – why should we be having any dealings with Russia after you have these moving meetings with people who are being oppressed by the Russian Government?

And also, I was hoping you could talk a little bit more about artificial intelligence, if you think it's a greater threat than Huawei.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Okay, let me take those kind of in sequence. What was the first one again?

QUESTION: Well, the first one: Why have any dealings – why try to improve relations with Russia when we know how they treat their own citizens, which is pretty much verbatim what Secretary of State Pompeo is always saying about dealing with Iran?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, I mean, I think the short answer is you have to stay engaged, even with people you vehemently disagree with. You're going to have a relationship no matter what you do. It's either going to be a good one, a working one, or a bad one. And so the – we – what I like to remind our staff is that when you get reactions like you do from the Chinese foreign ministry – "You're interfering in our internal affairs" – the last time I checked, they signed all these international conventions, and so you've agreed that we can comment on stuff that you're doing. Look, live up to your bargains.

That's what you would have to say – I mean, this is way above my pay grade, but when I see somebody who's on my level, I'll make the argument that you agreed to all this; why don't you let up on your own people and you'll have – you can resist – I've said this to the Belarussians and to the people in Azerbaijan and kind of across that whole southern tier region – it's like you got to convince your local governments that you're not a threat to them. Because remember, they're transitioning from being under the orbit of the former Soviet Union; they're afraid that President Putin is trying to kind of reach out and pull them in, and basically, the argument that you have to make is that civil society is the only way to make sure that happens.

You have to be yourself, and we see that every weekend when we watch LSU and Alabama play. I mean, there's no doubt – I mean, I come from Ohio and it's like we're still very happy about – because there's a sense of who you are that differentiates you.

QUESTION: I'm sorry. You're still very happy about what? (Laughter.)

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: About being in Michigan. About being in Michigan from Ohio. About being in –

QUESTION: Go Buckeyes.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I mean, what I'm saying is that these people need to – they have a sense of their own identity, but it's been suppressed for so long that the question of how do you get it back without antagonizing the wrong people. It's tough, but I have to say the people I met are just phenomenal. I mean, I'm so impressed with them. It's incredible.

Now, you wanted to know about AI as well?

QUESTION: Yeah. Is that a bigger threat than Huawei?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: AI –

QUESTION: Which you talk about all the time.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I think you're mixing apples and oranges. AI is a technology, okay, which basically allows machines to kind of crunch a lot of data and see patterns that the human eye can't see. I have a very good friend who is a radiologist, and he says, "Yeah." I said, "Well, is AI going to replace you when you do mammograms?" He says no, because even if it's really small, you have to have a human eye make the differentiation. So when you say Huawei, Huawei is – that's their 5G. That's what we're talking about there. And that is the internet of things, so that connects everything.

So once you have access to all that data – like how many times you open your refrigerator door or plug in your toaster – I mean, that's just more data for AI to crunch. So I mean, that's the – like I say, we're going to have to develop rules of the road just like we did when we got automobiles. There was a lot of carnage early on. There still is, but we kind of know what a red light is now, and I want to make sure that human rights is built into that.

Go ahead.

MODERATOR: Two more.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Yeah.

QUESTION: Thanks. You said in Bratislava you met or spoke with some people for the High Commission of National Minorities?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Right.

QUESTION: I'm wondering if the issue of India came up – Kashmir, Jammu, and especially in light of the – well, I guess you had already left by the time the citizenship bill had come up.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Right.

QUESTION: But if you've got comments or thoughts on that, I would be interested.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: It didn't really come up. We were really talking about more about what they were doing. The – we did make some comments to that effect – to – on that issue when Assistant – Acting Assistant Secretary Wells and I testified on the Hill, but I dare not go back there because I don't remember exactly what I said. So –

QUESTION: When was that?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: That was in early – was it November? Do you remember?

STAFF: October.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: October, yeah.

QUESTION: Okay, thanks.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Okay.

MODERATOR: Humeyra.

QUESTION: Go ahead.

QUESTION: I just want to ask about this civil society thing in Ukraine. When you're talking with these human rights defenders, the civil society aspect is great, but coming from a similar country myself, how about that the judiciary and the law is not actually fully applied, and that it is applied very arbitrarily? Like, what else are you – what tools does the U.S. have to help these people when they push back and say, well, we have a – like a borderline lawlessness situation here, and it's like applied super arbitrarily? It's not really about the civil society. So what tools, what leverage do you have? And what can you offer them to help?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, let me just start with the caveats, to begin with. The last thing we want or need is something that I just saw coming out of China the other day where the ministry of foreign affairs is saying, look, you've got all these groups that you support, and this is all Velvet Revolution stuff. So what we need to make sure is that whatever we're doing there is really capacity-building. So we've – we've done some work with – and I'm just talking generally across that region – with some of the lawyers, helping some of the – getting them training, offering the governments themselves the ability to train judges. So I mean, it's – you have to start at where the – where the shoe is pinching, and if – judiciary is certainly one of them. We want there to be real, honest-to-goodness due process, but that's something that you have to learn over time. So there's lots of things we can do, but I don't want to get into the details here because you can put people at risk by doing so.

MODERATOR: Shaun.

QUESTION: Thanks. You mentioned that you discussed with the ILO the situation in Xinjiang. You met with the OIC as well. I was wondering if that came up there and what the nature of the discussions were.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Yes, it did.

QUESTION: There's been some criticism that, with the possible exception of Turkey, that no Muslim-majority countries have really been very outspoken. To what extent were you asking for more of a push from predominantly Muslim countries on Xinjiang?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I was, and I did, and one of the people at the – several people at the lunch were – they were very responsive. And I think, in one respect, that to the extent that we could work closely with Turkey and get that done, because, as one of the people at the lunch put it, he says, "They speak our language." So it's not just a Muslim –

QUESTION: Wait, who speaks your language?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: The Uighurs – the Uighur language –

QUESTION: The Turks?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: – is Turkic.

QUESTION: Oh.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Okay, so these are basically Turkic-speaking people in China. And so my feeling is, just like any other endeavor you have, you've got to work it, and what I wanted to say is, like, if you guys are willing to work with us, we'd be more than willing to work with you and with American Muslim organizations with whom I've done a lot of work. And it seems to be we all – we all need to get together and push, and we need to understand that sometimes maybe we're not the best people to take the point. And so that can all be worked out over time.

QUESTION: But do you find that – other than Turkey, that there are other predominantly Muslim countries that want to do more?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Yes – yeah, every single one of them saw the problem.

QUESTION: They did see the problem?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Yeah.

QUESTION: But anything concrete about doing something about it?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, that – the – how shall I put this – my own prior experience with some of our European friends has always been let's have an MOU, right, and then let's do something. My reaction is let's do something, and then we can do an MOU to formalize it. So my reaction is let's pick one or two things – we didn't get into what those would be, but we had a couple of ideas around the table what we could do, which is more human rights generally in the Islamic countries, and I think there's plenty of room to maneuver. They were interested, we're interested, and I think you just kind of keep your head on and we'll tell you what we're doing as soon as we start doing it.

MODERATOR: Last question from Michel.

QUESTION: Yeah, not to relate to Turkey but relate to Iraq and – this relate to Iraq and Lebanon. How do you view the crackdown on demonstrations in Lebanon in the last two days? And Iraq activists have been kidnapped, killed, and tortured by the militia. What can you do to help?

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I mean, part of it – what can you do to help specifically? Stay in close touch with the people on the ground. I mean, that's what we have been doing. We've been getting almost constant reports from the field about what's going on, who's doing it. And then making sure – this is one of the things that really came out very clearly is if you mention that I'm in jail, I know that I'm not alone. I mean, that was a constant – the fact that you guys are there and that you're – that the Secretary or you actually mentions our name makes all the difference in the world. And some of the conditions under which folks are held, I mean, we know what's happening in all of these places with – I can't say for sure who's doing it, but they're not all local, let's just put it that way.

QUESTION: And in Lebanon.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Yeah, same thing. I mean, in Lebanon, it seems to me is a real opportunity for us to stand behind – I mean, these people in a country that is – has been for years almost designed to be multi-sectarian at the end of World War I, what you have is people across the board literally wrapping themselves in the Lebanese flag. To me, that is – that's a story of cosmic proportion all by itself, because it shows the development in the younger generation of a civic consciousness that if we don't get behind and in a way that's – that respects their right of self-determination. I mean, it's not our job to pick their – if we really believe in democracy, then we need to let them do what they need to do and just stand behind them while they're doing it.

QUESTION: But yesterday and before yesterday the security forces cracked down on them and there were clashes.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I expect that – I expect that's going to happen, and hopefully that will strengthen the resolve to do more.

QUESTION: Thank you.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: I mean, eventually the – we stood up to the Brits, too.

QUESTION: That was a long time ago.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Well, but the courage factor – remember what Ben Franklin said: We either hang together or we most assuredly will hang separately.

MODERATOR: Thank you, guys.

QUESTION: Thank you.

SENIOR STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: Thanks. Have a – if I don't see you all, have a very merry Christmas.

QUESTION: Thank you. Same to you.