29 September 2004
Powell Calls on Other Countries to Influence Sudan's Government
Secretary says money is needed for humanitarian assistance, troops in Darfur
U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell says he is disappointed that more nations have not made the clear statement that genocide is occurring in the Darfur region of Sudan, as he has done.
In a September 28 interview with radio host Michael Reagan (son of former President Ronald Reagan), Powell said that Russia, China, Algeria and Pakistan have taken no position on the matter because of their concern about the use of sanctions and their commercial interests in the region.
"We've got to work on them," he said. "I'm appealing to them in a different way, other than voting for a resolution, since they do have commercial interest in there and they do have influence in there, to use that interest and influence to get the Sudanese government to do the right thing."
The Darfuris, he added, "were poor people who were hungry before the war broke out and now they are in much more desperate straits, 1.2 million of them. But we are getting aid to them and we are trying to stabilize their situation and ultimately get them back to their homes.
"It is not a situation that's going to be resolved overnight. ... The food is now flowing. There is humanitarian aid getting in and there is medical care getting in. And we're still negotiating with the other group down south, the SPLM [Sudan People's Liberation Movement] under Dr. John Garang, to complete the comprehensive peace agreement between the north and south, and then we can hopefully use that success to solve the problem in Darfur," Powell said.
The secretary also said the hope is to get the additional African Union (AU) monitors into Darfur over the next couple of months, adding: "It is not that easy. You just don't pick up troops and drop them into that part of the world. It's very, very austere living. They don't have a logistics infrastructure. We'll have to help create that with contractors. We'll have to help provide airlift to get them in there and to sustain them there and to get them the helicopters, the trucks, the vehicles and everything else they need to get around and do their job that they now don't have."
Following is the transcript of Powell's remarks:
(begin transcript)
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Office of the Spokesman
September 28, 2004
INTERVIEW
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell on the Michael Reagan Show
September 28, 2004
Washington, D.C.
(4:50 p.m. EDT)
MR. REAGAN: Welcome, Mr. Secretary.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thanks, Mike. Good to be back on your show.
MR. REAGAN: It is good to have you back. Back on I think it was the 9th of September, you stood before the world body basically and said there was genocide going on. And the world body, the UN, as they usually do, backed up and said, "Wait a minute. You can't say things of that nature." Kofi Annan said what we are doing is illegal in Iraq. But is there not genocide going on in Sudan?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we certainly think so. As you know, the U.S. Congress went on record even before I did, a month or so before I did, and I waited until some people I had sent out there to examine the situation returned. They had interviewed some 1,400 people and based on what they reported to me, genocide was taking place in Darfur under any definition that you'd like to use with respect to the Genocide Convention. And that's exactly what I reported to the Congress and we reported to the UN. And it's contained in a UN resolution that the Secretary General now has to go out and make his own assessment, and that's what Secretary General Annan is doing.
But I must say, I am disappointed that not more nations have made this clear statement of what's happening there. Reality though, Mike, is whatever you call it, genocide, ethnic cleansing or any definition you apply to it, people are suffering out there and we have to do everything we can to help them.
MR. REAGAN: You know, I made mention of this on my radio show the day that you talked about genocide and I said it seems to me that we've been down this road before but it was with the Jews when the world turned their heads, pretend[ed] it wasn't going on, ships were being turned away from our shores and there was a whole group of people being absolutely taken out by the Germans -- the Jews, and we turned our heads. And we're doing the same thing it seems in the Sudan where the world body knows what's going on but is doing nothing about it. Didn't we learn from the genocide in the 1930's and '40s?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I think we have learned and we have learned from the situation in Rwanda some 10 years ago, but the world community is doing quite a bit. The UN has all of its agencies working in the Darfur region. There are humanitarian workers there. We have tripled the number of humanitarian workers in the last several months and that we're working with the UN, even though they have not classified it as genocide, we're working with them to get the African Union to send in 3 to 4 thousand more troops to help monitor the situation and perhaps create a sense of security within the country so that people will start leaving these camps and going back to their homes.
So the Secretary General has been there. He has his personal representatives on the ground in the region. And it's important, really, for all of us to get together, provide financial resources to buy food and equipment for these people and provide financial resources to dispatch the African Union forces that are ready to go in there.
MR. REAGAN: There were negotiations that were going on at the time that you mentioned it was genocide happening in the Sudan. Since then, of course, the negotiations have broken off with the blame going to the United States of America. Why are we being blamed?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we're being blamed by the Government of Sudan, but it had nothing to do with the United States. It had everything to do with the two parties, the Government of Sudan and the rebel groups that have been resisting the Government of Sudan. And I hope that those talks will reconvene in a couple of weeks time and they can get on and find a political settlement because, ultimately, these ... people who are dying by the thousands need political stability in Darfur so that we can get the aid they need. And it's not just to keep them in the camps -- the aid they need to get them back to their villages so that they can put in their crops and rebuild their homes. And that's what we're trying to do.
MR. REAGAN: Three or four thousand new troops going to make a difference?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes. We've got roughly 120 AU monitors, African Union monitors, protected by 300 other troops now and they can't cover an area that size, which is close to the size of France, but they can monitor what's going on. If we have 3 or 4 thousand in there they can spread out, monitor what's going on and report violations so that we can do something about them with the Sudan Government and, in extremis, can protect people who might be in need. But they're not going in as peacekeepers or fighters. They're going in to provide a presence throughout the countryside in Darfur so that people have some confidence that the international community is there to help them return to their homes.
MR. REAGAN: What more can the United States of America do?
SECRETARY POWELL: We can put more money in, and the Congress has been extremely generous. Over $600 million will go in in this fiscal year and about the same amount next year, give or take 10 or 15 million dollars, one way or the other, and I've been in touch with members of Congress who want to make sure we have what we need.
But there's no suggestion that this is a mission that U.S. forces should go in and perform. It would be very difficult for, you know, Americans to come in and try to interpose themselves between the government and these rebel fighters in an area that large. Just imagine trying to go to Texas, something that's 80 percent the size of Texas, and imposing order on it in a very, very austere set of environmental circumstances, essentially out of the desert almost.
MR. REAGAN: This has been going on for quite a while, but yet it's now just getting on the radar screen. Is that why you need, or you felt the need to call it genocide, to bring more light to the problems going on?
SECRETARY POWELL: It certainly did bring more light to it, but I called it genocide because the facts fit the Genocide Convention, the treaty that we all signed up to. And once those facts fit, I felt an obligation under the Convention to bring the matter to the attention of the Security Council.
The situation has been going on for a while. It got very bad earlier this year, beginning of the year, and that's why we got involved, tried to get a cease-fire arranged in early April. That wasn't doing the job, so I went to the region, a lot of other ministers went to the region, and I think we've got the international community mobilized.
But it is not a situation, Mike, that's going to be resolved overnight or with the flick of a switch. The food is now flowing. There is humanitarian aid getting in and there is medical care getting in. And we're still negotiating with the other group down south, the SPLM [Sudan People's Liberation Movement] under Dr. John Garang, to complete the comprehensive peace agreement between the north and south, and then we can hopefully use that success to solve the problem in Darfur.
MR. REAGAN: Can you count, though, on Kofi Annan and the United Nations to be of help in all of this?
SECRETARY POWELL: Remember that Kofi Annan is really an agent of the United Nations. He doesn't own any armies. He only is an administrator of the United Nations. So it's really the Security Council. And we got a pretty decent vote, but there were four members of the 15-member body that abstained; they didn't take a position on this. And we've got to work on them.
MR. REAGAN: Who are they?
SECRETARY POWELL: They included Russia, China, Algeria and Pakistan, those four.
MR. REAGAN: Follow the money?
SECRETARY POWELL: Follow the interest that people have that didn't necessarily coincide with our interests. There are some of these countries that just don't like the possibility of sanctions, and others that had commercial interests that they thought would not be well served if they voted against Sudan's interest in this resolution.
But even those that abstained realize that there's a serious problem out there and I'm appealing to them in a different way, other than voting for a resolution, since they do have commercial interest in there and they do have influence in there, to use that interest and influence to get the Sudanese Government to do the right thing.
MR. REAGAN: But how many are dying every day while we do this?
SECRETARY POWELL: A lot are dying. I mean, it is a tragic situation. Just living there under normal circumstances is difficult, Mike. It is not an easy place in which to survive. So these were poor people who were hungry before the war broke out and now they are in much more desperate straits, 1.2 million of them. But we are getting aid to them and we are trying to stabilize their situation and ultimately get them back to their homes.
MR. REAGAN: Any kind of idea what kind of time we're talking about?
SECRETARY POWELL: We hope to get the additional AU peacekeepers in, the monitors in, over the next -- I can't be too precise about this -- but the next couple of months. It is not that easy. You just don't pick up troops and drop them into that part of the world. It's very, very austere living. They don't have a logistics infrastructure. We'll have to help create that with contractors. We'll have to help provide airlift to get them in there and to sustain them there and to get them the helicopters, the trucks, the vehicles and everything else they need to get around and do their job that they now don't have.
MR. REAGAN: When you signed on to be the Secretary of State a few years back, did you expect it to be like this?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I've been around foreign policy in one form or another, both as National Security Advisor for your dad [former President Ronald Reagan], and as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. So I knew the challenges would come.
But, you know, great opportunities also come, and so I'm pleased that we are dealing with the challenges and we are seizing the opportunities, whether it's to get the American people solidly behind the need to do something about HIV/AIDS around the world or to spend more of our national treasure to help people in need. We have increased the USAID, you know, our Agency for International Development, their funding by well over 50 percent, almost 100 percent; Millennium Challenge Account, helping those nations who are developing but are committed to democracy to the tune of hopefully by $5 billion a year beginning in fiscal year 2006; open trade, free trade agreements; Libya disarming itself of its weapons of mass destruction. We've eliminated a couple of dictators and 55 million people are getting ready to vote. The people of Afghanistan will be voting the weekend after this coming weekend and nothing's going to stop them. Even though that I'm sure it will be violence, nothing's going to stop these 10.5 million registered voters from showing up and deciding who their next leader is going to be.
MR. REAGAN: All right, final question. If asked, would you serve another term?
SECRETARY POWELL: Don't go there, Mike. I serve at the pleasure of the President. (Laughter.)
MR. REAGAN: I know you do. But if I were President, I'd ask you to serve again.
SECRETARY POWELL: Are you announcing your candidacy, Michael?
MR. REAGAN: No, I'm not. (Laughter.) No, I'm not. But if I were, I would. (Laughter.)
Take care, good friend.
SECRETARY POWELL: Okay, Mike. Take care. Best to the family.
MR. REAGAN: You, too.
SECRETARY POWELL: Bye-bye.
MR. REAGAN: Got it. Best to you and Alma, also.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Bureau of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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