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UN Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs |
DRC: IRIN interview with Mayi-Mayi political leader Marcel Munga
KINSHASA, 11 September 2003 (IRIN) - General David Padiri Bulenda, one of the most prominent leaders of the Mayi-Mayi militias in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo, was inaugurated on Friday into the leadership of the newly-unified national military, and given responsibility for one of the country's 10 military regions. However, soon after, Padiri delegated political leadership of the Mayi-Mayi to one of his former chief military advisers, Marcel Munga.
IRIN spoke to Munga on Friday in the capital, Kinshasa, about the transformation of the Mayi-Mayi militias into a coherent political movement and its presence in the recently installed two-year national transitional government.
QUESTION: As the new political leader of the Mayi-Mayi how do you see the evolution of your movement?
ANSWER: We were leading an armed battle. We were a political-military movement. From now on, however, we are organising ourselves into a political movement with a social objective of transforming the Congolese nation into a better place.
The installation of a joint military leadership signifies the reunification of the country for us, the path toward peace, the solidification of national sovereignty and holding authorities responsible for their actions.
Q: General Padiri has always been presented as a leader of the Mayi-Mayi. What will become of him now that he has been named to the country's military leadership?
A: General Padiri is the charismatic leader of the Mayi-Mayi. For the time being, we are organising the Mayi-Mayi into a political movement which can have its own aspirations and means of expression at the heart of the Congolese nation. The Mayi-Mayi remains a single movement. It is elsewhere, such as in the West, where people have a bad image of us, one that presents us as a multitude of armed groups. However, we know that the Mayi-Mayi are united.
Q: Does your participation in the transitional government institutions mean the end of your participation in hostilities?
A: Some of our forces are being integrated into the national armed forces, others will be incorporated into the national police and still others might be demobilised. Therefore, it is up to the government to assume its responsibility for supervising all these elements.
Q: How many soldiers do you have?
A: We do not usually disclose exact figures of our soldiers for strategic reasons. But I can say that we have tens of thousands of soldiers.
Q: You were fighting against the Rwandan presence in Congo and against the Rassemblement congolais pour la democratie-Goma (RCD-Goma). How are your relations with RCD-Goma now that they are also part of the government of national unity?
A: The RCD has become a political movement. The soldiers that belonged to the RCD are being integrated into the national army, as are the forces of all other parties. Therefore, the forces of the Mayi-Mayi and RCD-Goma now form one entity.
Q: Yet fighting has continued between the RCD-Goma and the Mayi-Mayi in South Kivu Province. How will you achieve this unity on the ground?
A: I think that we must determine who is responsible for this fighting. There are many military leaders within RCD-Goma. They are participating in the joint military leadership here [in Kinshasa], and it is up to them to find out who is involved in fighting and to take necessary action. The officers of the joint military leadership have sworn an oath. They know their responsibilities. They must now exercise them. The DRC is a state which must safeguard its national territorial integrity.
Q: What is the current situation on the ground?
A: We have received reports of fighting near Bunyakiri and in other locations. The military authorities who are on the ground must clarify the situation for the national government. When fighting erupts, we must establish who is responsible. RCD-Goma soldiers who are on the ground must try to be transparent and tell us if Rwandan troops are present, because the Rwandan army never completely withdrew from Congolese territory.
Q: How many Rwandans, and where are they?
A: It is not for me to know. Us, we fight and observe the presence of Rwandan soldiers. It is a matter that needs to be investigated, but we do not know their numbers. In any case, they are numerous out there.
Q: What proof do you have to back up your claim?
A: It is a well-known secret. Their deployments cannot go unnoticed, no matter what precautions are taken. I think that MONUC [the UN peacekeeping mission in Congo] will manage to determine who is who, because it is MONUC who is observing what is taking place on the ground.
Q: You say you are waiting for RCD-Goma to order its troops to cease hostilities. However, for its part, the RCD accuses you of launching attacks. Have you ordered your forces to cease hostilities? Can it be said that the Mayi-Mayi who are still fighting are not under your control?
A: It has been a long time since the Mayi-Mayi have led an attack. The Mayi-Mayi are the ones who are attacked, and they are the ones who are defending themselves.
Q: There are many different armed groups calling themselves "Mayi-Mayi". General Padiri is one leader, but there is also the Mudundu 40, the Mayi-Mayi of northern Katanga who have been accused of cannibalism, the group led by Patrick Masunzu, and still others. What relationship exists between these different groups? Do they feel they are represented by you in the government and in the military?
A: The Mayi-Mayi is a single, united movement. As for northern Katanga, we must make efforts to help them understand the importance of what they must do as their duty to the Congolese nation. We have heard that they have committed exactions, but we must make efforts to help them end this negative activity.
As for the others, I think we should not speak of "groups", because, for example, the Mudundu 40 are simply children who lost their way, but who have returned to the fold. Before we came here [to Kinshasa], in the month of May, Odilo, who was the leader of the Mudundu 40, came to see us and pledge the loyalty of his forces to us. In Fizi, there are other Mayi-Mayi with whom we have good relations. There are no problems among the Mayi-Mayi.
Q: And what about Masunzu?
A: We must work closely with all people capable of restoring peace in the Congo. Someone who is armed and at your side, well, I do not think that is the best time to try to settle any differences you may have.
Q: You were supported by the former Kinshasa government, but now that there is a government of national unity in place, who will support you? Will President Joseph Kabila continue to support you should you need to continue fighting?
A: We supported [late DRC President] Laurent-Desire Kabila for a long time, because he shared our nationalist political vision. His son [Joseph] does as well, so there is no contradiction. As for the aid that you have mentioned, we never received any from the government. However, we supported the government as a matter of principle.
Q: The Mayi-Mayi have been accused in the past of blocking access to populations living in territory under your control. According to MONUC, for example, you prevented humanitarian assistance to the people of Kindu and Bukavu. What do you have to say about that? And what are you doing to improve humanitarian access to populations in need?
A: It is you who are saying this. As for me, I think our people have been displaced for five or six years. We always invited humanitarian agencies to come help our people, but it was the RCD who blocked access to them.
How could we have prevented humanitarian flights from landing in Shabunda, when we were the ones in need? Talk to Medecins Sans Frontieres or Action contre la Faim, they will tell you about the spirit of collaboration that we had with them. They were disappointed when we left the region.
Q: The Mayi-Mayi have been accused of pillage, raping women and torching entire villages.
A: We have been accused, because have been without representation. Even the RCD does not have soldiers as well disciplined as those of the Mayi-Mayi. You are now here among us - have you observed any undisciplined elements here?
Q: RCD-Goma has accused you of complicity with the ex-FAR and Interahamwe [Rwanda's former army and ethnic Hutu militias largely responsible for the 1994 genocide]. With the national unity government in place, the process of Disarmament, Demobilisation, Repatriation, Reinsertion and Reintegration [DDRRR] of former combatants must be strengthened. How will this affect your relations with the ex-FAR and Interahamwe?
A: You speak of Interahamwe. Who are Interahamwe? We know only Rwandan refugees. It was we who initiated the DDRRR project with MONUC. We got it started. There was a group that left Bukavu to return to Rwanda. All the press were in Ruzizi for the grand departure. But who then prevented DDRRR from continuing? Was it not the RPA [Rwandan Patriotic Army] and the RCD? I think the fact that we have been accused arises from the lack of media representation we have had on our side.
Q: Reports by human rights NGOs in your region such as Heritiers de la Justice have accused you of attacks on civilians and recruitment of child soldiers, for example in Idjwi. What do you have to say about that?
A: Even if there is to be national reconciliation, there are facts that can be established about acts committed by well-known persons. I think that those responsible for these crimes should not go unpunished. Regarding the Mayi-Mayi, can you provide us with evidence to back these accusations? Our troops are fully under our control. However, we have not had journalists such as yourself to cover our actions out where we are.
In any case, the report is a matter for Heritiers de la Justice and the RCD. It is up to them to reach conclusions. The national unity government has people responsible for the security of people and their property.
Q: What will become of the Mayi-Mayi's child soldiers? Do you plan to demobilise them?
A: That is a question we have considered for a long time. We have no child soldiers. If there are any, it is a bare minimum, maybe 10 at most. I believe that we have no soldiers to be demobilised. We are waiting for the government to assume its responsibilities and integrate them [in the unified national army]. Before we came to Kinshasa [to join the government], we took all necessary action so that there would be nothing that could be held against us.
Q: The Mayi-Mayi have a reputation for believing in mystical, magical powers. Can you discuss this with us?
A: You know, in each troop, in each body of the army, there are certain practices. If we are talking about invulnerability, these are techniques, combat tactics that we are not at liberty to discuss publicly. We are not fetishists, we are Christians.
Q: The question of nationality has long been an issue along the eastern border of the country. Certain people are not accepted because they are seen as Rwandan, Ugandan or Burundian because of their physical appearance. How can this be resolved?
A: I think that all questions such as these need to be addressed by the government. There is no problem. These are administrative matters that need not be discussed by everybody. The parliament should come to a decision on this.
Q: Are you willing to accept the Banyamulenge [ethnic Tutsis who have long resided in the DRC] as Congolese?
A: It is not for me to accept them. The Congolese nation has its laws, and the laws regarding citizenship are clear. It is not for me to clarify them. There is a parliament responsible for deciding such matters.
Themes: (IRIN) Conflict, (IRIN) Governance
[ENDS]
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