Military

DATE=06/05/2003

TYPE=ON THE LINE

NUMBER=1-01340

TITLE=POLAND'S NEW WORLD ROLE

INTERNET=Yes

EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY 619-0038

CONTENT=

THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

Host: Poland's growing role on the world stage. Next, On the Line. [music]

Host: More than a dozen years after securing its freedom from the Soviet Union and paving the way for the freedom of other Eastern European countries, Poland is now assuming a larger role in international affairs. U-S President George W. Bush was in Krakow to thank Poland for its political and military help in fighting the war on terrorism. "In the battles of Afghanistan and Iraq, Polish forces served with skill and honor," Mr. Bush said. "America will not forget that Poland rose to the moment." Poland will now be leading a force of peacekeepers in Southern Iraq. Poland is also stepping into a larger role in Europe. This weekend, Poles vote on a referendum to join the European union. Joining us to talk about Poland's future and its goals is Poland's ambassador to the U-S, Przemyslaw Grudzinski. Welcome and thanks for joining us today.

Grudzinski: Thank you for inviting me.

Host: When President Bush was in Krakow, he said that Poland is a good citizen of Europe and a close friend of the United States. Is there any contradiction between those two?

Grudzinski: No, we don't see any contradiction. I think it's a perfect formula and representation of how we see things in Europe and in transatlantic relations. Actually, this could be a model of Polish foreign policy since 1989, since Poland liberated itself. And I think, and it is not simply a theory and Poland is actively trying to influence Europe so that there is no contradiction between those two elements. And now, after entering into the European Union, we also would like to try to keep the transatlantic relationship as strong as possible.

Host: Why is Poland such a good friend and ally of the United States?

Grudzinski: We think that we have a concept of civilization to which we belong. And that was one of the motivations that led us to fight for our freedom during Communism. So, we want to be a part of the larger whole and we feel a part of this larger whole. Western civilization to which we think we belong, consists of two major pillars, the European and American pillars. They could not be created one without the other. So, yes, we think we belong in a way to this civilization that covers both the European and North American continents. Secondly, we think very strongly that America is a European power. America is a part of our European experience and a part of our past and a part of our present and part of our future. We need America as much as America needs Europe.

Host: How strained are those relations now from your vantage point between Europe and the United States?

Grudzinski: Well, I would not deny, even as a diplomat that [not] all things were coming into good direction during the past months between America and some European countries. But I think we should look forward. I think that the fundamentals of this relationship have not changed. And in time it will be possible to reconcile the differences, heal some wounds and to move forward. As President Bush said in his Krakow speech, there is a broad agenda, global agenda that can be tackled only when America and Europe come together. Otherwise, parts of this important agenda cannot be effected. I think we should look to it, look to the past and reexamine what happened during the last few months and talk seriously about problems and about challenges and perhaps in time, try to address those specific problems that in a way are intervening negatively into the relationship. I think at one point we invigorated NATO with an E-U that looks cooperatively, to cooperative relations with America and make perhaps some new mechanisms that will address some of the deficits.

Host: What kind of new mechanisms would those be?

Grudzinski: Well, for example, Europe is becoming more whole, united than ever in history. And this is, in part, a creation of the United States. Without the United States, Europe will not come to this point in its history. It's a very positive experiment in history, perhaps one of the most significant successful experiments ever conducted on European soil and perhaps on a global scale. It's a new mechanism for integration, reconciling historic differences and problems. Europe now is a vast area of peace, affluence and solidarity and cooperation, and I think this magnificent result of this experiment should lead not to less cooperation with the United States, but more cooperation on a higher qualitative level. I don't think that at the moment the mechanism is created to ensure that the transatlantic new quality as a possibility is reflected on the level of institutional mechanisms. And some of the existing tools, existing instruments are not adequate to the potential of this relationship.

Host: Now do you mean that that is in the way the E-U is structured or is it with regard to NATO? [crosstalk]

Grudzinski: No. I am thinking about institutional relations between, for example, the E-U and the United States, the way that those two entities talk to each other. I am thinking about modernizing NATO in terms of its ability to address the global issues of the day.

Host: Let's talk about those two things. What kind of role is Poland going to have in the European Union and what kind of role is Poland going to have in NATO in making those improvements happen?

Grudzinski: Starting from NATO. We entered NATO only four years ago, that was in 1999, the spring of 1999. At that point, Poland, together with our two Central European friends, [the Czech Republic and Hungary], was considered to be a new member of NATO. Four years later, nobody, I would say, dares to call Poland with the name of "new member," because Poland has proved to be one of the most energetic, solid and, I would say, members of NATO with original input into NATO. So, in just four short years, Poland proved to be a reliable member of NATO that contributes significantly to shaping NATO. So it is a relevant organization for the future.

Host: Now is Poland's sending troops and organizing troops from other countries as well as to provide peacekeeping for southern Iraq, is that an example of where you're headed with NATO?

Grudzinski: Yes, this is not exactly a NATO operation. But this is an operation that is conducted as a framework of the coalition of countries that first led to the liberation of Iraq and now feel responsible for the future of Iraq. So Poland belonged to this, I would say, small group of countries that actually conducted the combat operations and now feel that they must also do something about post-Saddam Iraq. So we are there. We will command a division, a multi-national division of about seven-thousand troops. The Polish division among those troops will be the biggest contributor to this force. And we will lead this division. Apart from the division, we will send also our humanitarian relief N-G-Os [non-governmental organizations] into action. We will send our engineers. We will send our doctors. We really want to make the promise of the new Iraq happen with Polish support. So we work hand in glove with other big contributors to this process: the U-S, Great Britain and others. This is not a NATO operation. We asked NATO to provide Poland with some logistical and staff support, which NATO will do. And in this sense, I hope that NATO will become gradually even more involved in the future of peacekeeping in Iraq. How it will go it is difficult to say at the moment.

Host: How about Poland's role within the E-U then?

Grudzinski: Here, I can't even say that Poland is a new member because at the moment

Host: The voting this weekend.

Grudzinski: Yes, they're voting this weekend.

Host: How do you expect that vote to go?

Grudzinski: Most of the [public opinion] polls I read today said more people will turn out at the [voting] polls than we expected. But this is a big iffy question.

Host: You have to get fifty percent of a turnout for the vote to count.

Grudzinski: Yes. This is the biggest hurdle. Again, if you trust the polls, then this hurdle will be overcome. I [don't] have, and no observers, no analysts have any qualms about the actual proportion between yes and no votes. I mean, here everybody expects a huge vote in favor of a European choice for the E-U.

Host: Joining the E-U.

Grudzinski: Joining the E-U. But yes, the turnout, this is the one problem that will define our entry into the E-U. If the turnout doesn't meet this criterion of fifty percent, then it will go to the parliament and a vote in the parliament will decide. Then, of course, we'll be ready in either case to become a full member of the E-U by May 1st, 2004.

Host: And how large a voice in the E-U will Poland have?

Grudzinski: I think in terms of their former standing, Poland will have significant clout. The so-called Treaty of Nice that was signed and ratified a few years ago by the actual members of the E-U prepared the stage for enlargement. And decided, for example, things like how many votes each of the countries, the actual members and the future members, like Poland will have. And from that purely formal perspective, Poland will count among the six biggest members of the E-U. I think Germany, France, and Great Britain form kind of the biggest players with the biggest numbers of voting power and then comes Spain, Italy, and Poland with again the equal, I think, number of votes. So, we will have a lot of voting power and ability to form influential coalitions within the E-U in order to promote our point of view.

Host: One thing that I hoped we could talk about was the way Poland has made this remarkable transition from being a Soviet satellite state to seizing its freedom and then developing a democratic country that now is joining into Europe, being integrated into Europe. Do you see any lessons from your experience in bringing Poland to freedom for this larger goal that President Bush keeps talking about of securing freedom for countries that are now not free?

Grudzinski: Well, yes, clearly there are lessons. I think that one of the most important features of our road to freedom was that we believed strongly that freedom was possible. This was not a theoretical concept for us, those people who were working in the ranks of Solidarity. We believed strongly that freedom is achievable, attainable within our lifetime, even if most of the people in the world, I must say, including many of my American friends, would tend to think the Soviet empire would live at least a thousand more years. It seemed like you cannot change those basic objective facts of life. But we, we tended to believe that everything was possible.

Host: How in the midst of Soviet oppression were you able to maintain that belief that you would be able to achieve your freedom?

Grudzinski: I think that everybody has to start with himself and create his own zone, or her zone, of freedom. Within an individual being there has to be a certain clinging, certain belief that when I think, I am free, so to speak, even if in my dealings with institutions I have to somehow tame my free spirit, but inside of myself I remain basically a free individual. Interestingly enough, the best books about freedom were written by the dissidents when they were kept in captivity, in prisons. Adam Michnik and Vaclav Havel's best political essays were written when they were kept imprisoned. So yes, there is this question of this individual space. Then, if you have enough of those individuals believing in freedom, then they can meet and they should meet. And they should talk and create little private-public or semi-public underground spaces where they meet and talk and exchange ideas. And that was exactly what we did. We have created a lot of floors for meetings in private apartments, in the squares, in the churches, in all possible venues where we could meet and speak beyond the control of the secret police, of the authorities. The next element would be to create a network between those little groups of people by different kinds of information instruments. And the force which is of great help, is to find friends abroad that will support such individuals and groups, both in terms of psychological support, political support, but also as it was, the case of Solidarity and our American friends and our European friends and material support.

Host: Do you think that the act of organizing these small groups to carve out a little space, to think about freedom, to work at it, did that provide the groundwork for building democratic institutions after you won freedom?

Grudzinski: Yes, I think the Poles are very good at building underground states. We built underground states several times in history, always against oppression, foreign or domestic oppression, usually, I must say, foreign oppression. This was a case of our underground state during the partition time of the nineteenth century. This was the underground state that we built under the Nazi occupation during the Second World War. This was a highly effective underground state. Not many people in the West know that it was a remarkable achievement fighting with the Nazis that created a huge whole army and resistance unparalleled anywhere else in Europe. And then we created our own underground state during the time of Communism. And of course this is a basis for civil society to develop after 1989. And I can tell you that even under the Communist oppression, we lived a sort of half independent life having our own networks of support of all sorts. And when the Solidarity erupted, so to speak, ten millions of Poles joined Solidarity. This was the summer of 1980 when nobody that was considered a sane person thought that Poland could ever be free. Ten million people thought, yes, we could.

Host: What kind of lesson is there in Poland's struggle to achieve its freedom for a country like, say, Iran, where you have a struggling democracy movement against horrific oppression from the regime?

Grudzinski: Well, regimes that oppress people usually build an elaborate structure of lies. And they create a false reality that every day is transmitted to the people through various instruments. And this seems like a structure that cannot be undermined, because it is of course under-geared by all [of the] oppression apparatus. But the most important thing for the oppressive regime is to cultivate this false image of reality. And I think it looks so strong and resistant to challenge, but actually, there is a moment where the illegitimacy of this façade can be exposed. In our case, when ten million people -- workers, peasants, intellectuals, teachers, students -- demonstrated by joining the Solidarity union, they demonstrated that the claim, any claim of the regime to legitimacy was false. It was like from day to night. They claimed that they represented the true interest of those people who demonstrated against them.

Host: I wish we could talk about it more, but I'm afraid we're out of time. I'd like to thank my guest today, the ambassador of Poland to the U-S, Przemyslaw Grudzinski. Before we go, I'd like to invite you to send us your questions or comments. You can e-mail them to Ontheline@ibb.gov For On the Line, I'm Eric Felten.