25 April 2003
Bush Says He is Pushing for Middle East Reform
(Discusses Iraq, Middle East, North Korea with NBC's Brokaw) (9370)
President Bush says he is pushing for reform in the Middle East,
including the setting up of a democratic government in Iraq and
acceleration of the peace process between the Israelis and the
Palestinians.
Bush made the remarks April 24 in a wide-ranging interview with Tom
Brokaw of NBC conducted on Air Force One in two segments as the
president traveled to Ohio for the day, and returned to Washington.
U.S. forces are in Iraq to promote security, to make sure life returns
to normal, and to help the Iraqi people establish a democratic
government "that represents all the people" of Iraq, said Bush.
Regarding the Palestinian-Israeli situation, Bush said "the selection
of Abu Mazen as the Palestinian Prime Minster is very positive,
primarily because Abu Mazen has stated publicly that he is against
terror and will use whatever powers he has to fight off the terrorist
activities that have really prevented peace from moving forward."
Bush said "the only way for there to be peace and for the survival of
Israel and for the hope of the Palestinian people is for two states
living side by side in peace. And I've laid out a plan to achieve
that, a plan that calls upon actions by the Israelis, by the
Palestinians, as well as by the Arab nations surrounding that troubled
part of the world."
Asked if he planned to invite Abu Mazen to the White House, Bush said
"absolutely ... one of these days," and explained why he had not
invited Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat.
"(F)irst of all, I looked at the history of Mr. Arafat. Now, I saw
what he did to President Clinton. There was no need to spend capital,
unless you had an interlocutor who could deliver the Palestinian
people toward peace. And I believe Abu Mazen is a man dedicated to
peace, and I look forward to working with him for the two-state
solution."
On the search in Iraq for weapons of mass destruction, Bush said the
war in Iraq accomplished the objective of ensuring that Saddam Hussein
"will not hurt the United States or friends or our allies with weapons
of mass destruction."
"We are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions with Iraqi
scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that perhaps he
destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some," said Bush.
"We also know there are hundreds and hundreds of sites available for
hiding the weapons. ... And so we will find them. But it's going to
take time to find them. And the best way to find them is to continue
to collect information from the humans, Iraqis who were involved with
hiding them."
On North Korea, Bush was asked about an April 24 statement by North
Korea saying that it has reprocessed 8,000 plutonium rods and if the
United States does not start talking to them, they're willing to sell
them.
Bush responded that "they're back to the old blackmail game.
"One of our goals and objectives must be to strengthen the
nonproliferation regimes and get the whole world focused on
proliferation of weapons of mass destruction or the materials for
weapons of mass destruction, and North Korea is making my case, that
we've got to come together," Bush said.
"And we started that process in the North Korean peninsula that is
coming together. The Chinese now, for the first time, are partners at
the table. I look forward to hearing what the Chinese say about being
rebuffed by the North Koreans because they, too, believe that the
(Korean) Peninsula ought to be nuclear weapons-free. This will give us
an opportunity to say to the North Koreans and the world we're not
going to be threatened. On the other hand we, the world, must come
together to make sure institutions like the IAEA are effective at
stopping proliferation.
"It's another reason, by the way, for us to also advance the missile
defense systems, because the missile defense system will make it less
likely that a nuclear country could blackmail us or Japan or any one
of our friends."
Other subjects discussed in the interview included the president's
decisions as the war with Iraq started, his view of the United
Nations, U.S. relations with France, the global fight against al Qaeda
and the U.S. AIDS initiative in Africa.
Regarding the latter, Bush called it "an incredibly important
initiative," and said he intends "to call upon Europe, particularly
the wealthier nations in Europe, to join us in providing the
medicines, the anti-retroviral drugs and the strategies necessary to
start saving lives, more lives on the continent of Africa."
Following is a transcript of the Brokaw interview with Bush:
(begin transcript)
THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
April 24, 2003
INTERVIEW OF THE PRESIDENT BY TOM BROKAW, NBC
Aboard Air Force One
Canton, Ohio
11:14 A.M. EDT
QUESTION: Mr. President, there's no tougher decision any President
makes than to commit the nation to war. Let's talk about that first
night, when you surprised us all by launching the preemptive strike
against the residence of Saddam Hussein.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, they started in the Situation Room, and we had
Tommy Franks on the screen with a Commander -- I think out of Saudi
Arabia and Kuwait City and out of -- and a CENTCOM commander out of
Tampa Bay, along with their British and Australian counterparts.
And then we had the national security team aligned on the table there.
I went around to each of the commanders and said, are you happy with
the strategy, do you have what it takes to win the war? They all
answered affirmatively.
I then gave the instructions to Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld that
Operation Iraqi Freedom would commence at a time of Tommy Franks'
choosing. Told Tommy, you know, for the sake of peace and security and
the freedom of the Iraqi people that he's got the orders to proceed. I
asked God for blessing on him and the troops. He saluted, I saluted
back and left the room.
It was a -- it was an emotional moment for me because I had obviously
made up my mind that if we needed to, we would use troops to get rid
of weapons of mass destruction to free the Iraqi people. But the
actual moment of making that decision was a heavy moment. I then went
outside and walked around the grounds, just to get a little air and
collect my thoughts.
I thought I was pretty well through with the day, until 3:40 p.m. that
afternoon, when I got a call from Secretary Rumsfeld that said, Mr.
President, the plans have changed. He said, I would like to change the
plans, I need your permission to change the plans. Can I come over? He
didn't say, the plans had changed, but I knew what he told me on the
phone, it would mean the plans would have changed. And that is, we had
a shot at Saddam Hussein they thought.
So I assembled the national security team of the Vice President, Colin
Powell, Rumsfeld, Myers, CIA Tenet, Condi Rice, Andy Card and some
other CIA agents there -- some guys I hadn't seen before came in the
Oval. And the reason why they were there is they had a source on the
ground that was convinced that not only would Saddam Hussein be in the
complex, but Uday and Qusay, his two sons, would be there as well. And
they explained why this was the case. And basically they were asking
permission from me to launch an air strike.
I was hesitant at first, to be frank with you, because I was worried
that the first pictures coming out of Iraq would be a wounded
grandchild of Saddam Hussein -- but Saddam Hussein, who was not there
at the time we started making the decision, would never show up --
that the first images of the American attack would be death to young
children.
And this is an interesting moment, because as time went on during the
day, or that evening, the intelligence got richer and richer. In other
words, the guy on the ground was calling in to the CENTCOM
headquarters, who was immediately calling in to the White House more
and more information. For example, he discovered that there was a
bunker a hundred feet away from one of the houses -- a bunker that had
so much concrete and was likely to house Saddam when he arrived, and
his kids, his boys.
And as the intelligence got richer, I got more confident with the
notion that Saddam would, in fact, be there. And at 7:15 p.m. that
evening, I gave the order for Tommy to proceed with an attack on the
farms, but changed -- they had an ordnance package of 30 cruise
missiles. But because of the bunker they had to change the timing of
the attack so that the stealth bomber went in first, unloaded his
ordnance and then the TLAMs, or the cruise missiles would follow in
behind.
Which means they had to reprogram all these missiles. And they didn't
have much time to do it because the flight time of the missiles from
their particular launch sites was about two hours.
This other thing that bothered me during the decision-making was that
the stealth would go in unescorted -- there would have been no air
suppression on enemy defenses prior to him going in, in order to keep
the element of surprise alive. So the day changed, and it was a
dramatic several hours because we really changed the battle plan.
Q: Did you watch that on television, when the bombs began to land?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I did. I did. Actually, they began to hit and then
I went in and shortly thereafter addressed the nation -- so I was
getting make-up and talking about the -- you know, figuring out the
words in the speech. I did. And it was about 9:30 p.m., as I recall,
and then I spoke to the country about 10:15 p.m.
But what was interesting, Tom, I don't think many people know this, is
that the game plan was to move Special Ops forces early, at noon that
day. And we would have explained to the country, as kind of creating
the conditions for the battlefield, so that when our troops moved
significantly their conditions would be ripe for success.
At Friday, at noon, I was going to address the nation about the air
campaign, and the ground campaign would follow shortly thereafter.
Turns out that because we conducted the air raid, I had to speak that
night to the country. And then Tommy said he was going to move the
ground force movement up early to secure oil fields and to move as
quickly as possible into Iraq -- which really says that he had the
ability and the authority and the flexibility necessary to change a
war plan to meet the needs on the ground.
Q: That human intelligence that we had on the ground, did you hear
back from him, I presume?
THE PRESIDENT: We did.
Q: And did he --
THE PRESIDENT: He felt like we got Saddam.
Q: He did?
THE PRESIDENT: He felt like that, yes. And we're trying, of course, to
verify. And before there's any declaration, of course, there will be a
lot of evidence.
Q: Did you see that famous television video of Saddam the next day, in
the glasses, reading out from the notepad and so on?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, yes. I was amused by that, almost as amused by
that as I was his PR man -- it was one of the classics -- probably
helping NBC Saturday Night Live out mightily, but through his -- it
was just unbelievable what he was saying.
But, you know, the people that wonder if Saddam Hussein is dead or
not, there's some evidence that says, suggests he might be. We would
never make that declaration until we were more certain. But the person
that helped direct the attacks believes that Saddam, at the very
minimum, was severely wounded.
Q: That night?
THE PRESIDENT: That night, yes. And it explains -- again, there will
be a lot of speculation until the truth is known, but it explains why,
for example, one reason why dams weren't blown up or oil fields
weren't destroyed -- even though we found them to be wired with --
potentially to be blown up.
Q: Now, the air campaign is underway and troops are moving across the
border --
THE PRESIDENT: That would be a day and a half later.
Q: A day and a half later.
THE PRESIDENT: But troops were moving across the border earlier.
Q: "Shock and awe" was the phrase that was heard so much before it all
began. It didn't have exactly the effect I think that a lot of people
expected, because the resistance down south was from the militia, at
least, were tougher than a lot of people anticipated.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think it's true. I think that's an accurate look
back. Shock and awe said to many people that all we've got to do is
unleash some might and people will crumble. And it turns out the
fighters were a lot fiercer than we thought. Because, for example, we
didn't come north from Turkey, Saddam Hussein was able to move a lot
of special Republican Guard units and fighters from north to south. So
the resistance for our troops moving south and north was significant
resistance. On the other hand, our troops handled it, handled that
resistance quite well.
Q: Did that give you a pause for a while?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, I had confidence in the plan,
because I've got confidence in my national security team. Remember, my
advisors are people such as Dick Cheney, who had been through the war
before as the Secretary of Defense; Colin Powell, who's not only an
Army general, but also had been through a war before; Don Rumsfeld,
who's a very successful man in the private sector, but also has got
great judgment when it comes to the military; Tommy Franks, I really
trust Tommy, we speak the same language -- after all, Tommy went to
Midland Lee High School, graduated in 1963, one year ahead of Laura;
Condi. I get good, solid advice from people who analyzed this war
plan, analyzed the strategy, looked over it in depth, had looked at it
for quite a bit of time and convinced me that it would lead to
victory.
So I've never doubted the plan. Obviously, I was concerned when we
lost life, or concerned that day when some of our prisoners, the
people were captured. But I had confidence in the plan because I had
confidence in the team.
Q: Let me ask you about that day that the prisoners were captured.
Everything played out on television. There's been probably no more
televised event in the history of mankind. Suddenly you look on the
screen and from Iraqi television there are five American prisoners of
war, including a woman who was a cook, Shoshana Johnson.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I believe that was a Sunday. And it was a tough
day. It was a tough day for America, it was a tough day for the
Commander-in-Chief, who committed these young soldiers into battle in
the first place. Which made their release even more joyous. But war is
-- it's tough.
Q: Did you make some calls?
THE PRESIDENT: No, I didn't. I've written a lot of letters, but I
didn't call any parents then. I prayed for them, but I didn't call.
Q: Did you talk to Laura about it?
THE PRESIDENT: I did. I talked to Laura a lot during this period of
time. She's been a steady source of strength and inspiration and love.
You know, any time there's war and a lot of action, a lot of movement
of troops and equipment, people are -- there's going to be death. And
it's the hardest aspect of this job, frankly, is to know that those
lives were lost because of orders I gave.
On the other hand, I firmly believe, and history will prove, that
decisions that I made and the actions that our country took will make
the world more peaceful, help secure the United States. And, as
importantly, give the Iraqi people freedom, let them be free -- free
from the clutches of one of the most barbaric regimes in the history
of mankind.
Q: The flip side of all that was the rescue of Jessica Lynch.
THE PRESIDENT: It was.
Q: Did you get advanced notice that that operation was going down?
THE PRESIDENT: I did. I did. Secretary Rumsfeld told me not to get my
hopes up, but there was going to be a very sensitive operation into a
hospital where he thought that there would be an American POW. And
that's all he said. He was very circumspect, as he should be, to a lot
of people, because he didn't want any information to get out that
might have jeopardized the operation. But he gave me a heads-up. And
then when we heard that she had been rescued, it was a joyous moment.
Q: Let me ask you about some of the larger policy questions. Before we
went to war against Iraq, one of the reasons that you justified this
war was that he posed a real threat to the United States. If he
couldn't defend his own country -- and we have not yet been able to
find the weapons of mass destruction, which were not even launched in
defense of Iraq -- was that overstated?
THE PRESIDENT: No, not at all. As a matter of fact, I think time and
investigation will prove a couple of points. One, that he did have
terrorist connections. And, secondly, that he had a weapons of mass
destruction program -- we know he had a weapons of mass destruction
program. We now know he's not going to use them. So we've accomplished
one objective, and that is that Saddam Hussein will not hurt the
United States or friends or our allies with weapons of mass
destruction.
Secondly, we are learning more as we interrogate or have discussions
with Iraqi scientists and people within the Iraqi structure, that
perhaps he destroyed some, perhaps he dispersed some. We also know
there are hundreds and hundreds of sites available for hiding the
weapons, which he did effectively for 10 years from the -- over 10
years from the United Nations. And that we've only looked at about 90
of those sites so far. I mean, literally hundreds of sites.
And so we will find them. But it's going to take time to find them.
And the best way to find them is to continue to collect information
from the humans, Iraqis who were involved with hiding them.
Q: As you know, there's still a lot of skepticism around the world
about American motives in Iraq.
THE PRESIDENT: Right.
Q: Why not fold in some of the U.N. inspectors to this effort, not
turn it over to them, but make them a part of it? Would that help with
the credibility, do you think?
THE PRESIDENT: I think there's going to be skepticism until people
find out there was, in fact, a weapons of mass destruction program.
One thing there can't be skepticism about is the fact that this guy
was torturous and brutal on the Iraqi people. I mean, he brutalized
them, he tortured them, he destroyed them, he cut out their tongues
when they dissented. And now the people are beginning to see what
freedom means within Iraq. Look at the Shia marches, or the Shia
pilgrimages that are taking place.
The world will see that the United States is interested in peace, is
interested in security and interested in freedom.
Q: But it is important to find the weapons of mass destruction, or the
evidence that he had a massive program underway, isn't it?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I think we will. I'm pretty confident we will.
Q: Your old family friend, Brent Scowcroft, who has some differences
with the policies here, says one of the things that he's worried about
is that there's no tradition of democracy there, that people will just
seize power wherever they can. It seems to a lot of people that that
is playing out in the south, especially where the Shia are saying,
look, we're going to run things here, we'd like to have an Islamic
government. Isn't that a serious concern?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, first of all, we just started. The country isn't
secure yet. I mean, the first things that we're worried about is
making sure that the militia units of the old Fedayeen Saddam aren't
out killing people. So our troops are working with coalition forces to
make the country more secure.
Secondly, we're worried about making sure there are -- there's the
presence of a police force in these different cities to maintain
order. We are just beginning to move our teams in place to help the
Iraqi bureaucracies get up and running.
I was pleased to see that the Doctors Without Borders organization
said that they went into Iraq and found no grave humanitarian crisis.
In other words, the food is getting to the people, medicines are
getting to the people. They did say there is a shortage of personnel,
professionally -- not a shortage of medicine, but a shortage of
professionals necessary to deliver the aid, and we'll help the Iraqi
people address that problem.
My point to you is that we have an orderly process to bring stability
and food and health to the Iraqi people, so life can begin to return
to normal. And then I'm confident that a government will emerge. I
dismiss the critics who say that democracy can't flourish in Iraq. It
may not look like America. You know, Thomas Jefferson may not emerge.
But, nevertheless, I do believe there can be a representative
government and all factions can be represented.
Q: But if it becomes an Islamic government -- with a 60 percent Shiite
majority, it could very well become that -- would that be acceptable
to you?
THE PRESIDENT: What I would like to see is a government where church
and state are separated. And I believe there's enough people within
Iraq that would like that kind of -- there may be a nationalist
government, a government that really honors the Iraqi history and the
Iraqi traditions and Iraq, itself. But it must be a government that is
going to, you know, represents all the people. And I believe that can
happen.
Q: Were you surprised by the degree of looting that occurred almost
instantly?
THE PRESIDENT: No, I wasn't surprised at all.
Q: You were not? Why?
THE PRESIDENT: I mean, these were people that hated the regime under
which they lived.
Q: But they went after hospitals and museums and --
THE PRESIDENT: I don't like that part. And that was the -- you know,
the hospitals and museum were the absolute worst part. The good news
is, is that the hospitals are now up and running, they've got enough
medical supplies to take care of the people that need help. That
museum was a terrible incident. I couldn't agree more with people who
say we're sorry that happened. We are, by the way, helping find
treasure, restore treasure and we'll provide all the expertise and
help they need to get that museum up and running again.
But I wasn't surprised. It was vengeance, because it's like uncorking
a bottle of frustration. These are people whose relatives were beaten,
tortured, shocked, killed because they spoke out, because they
disagreed with Saddam Hussein. And history is going to show how brutal
this man and his sons and his regime really, really was. And,
therefore, it did not surprise me when people took vengeance on police
stations, or took, you know, went out into government buildings and
destroyed them.
I'm also pleased by the fact that that level of -- those riots, or
whatever you want to call them, released some steam, and now life is
returning to normal. Things have settled down inside the country.
Q: There's still a lot of nationalism, though. I mean, it's a very
strong strain there and, in fact, some people are taking control of
their neighborhoods, or whole sectors of Baghdad --
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, like the guy, the self-proclaimed mayor.
Q: Right.
THE PRESIDENT: This is all -- a reasonable government will evolve. We
just started. It wasn't but two weeks ago yesterday that the statue
fell down. There have been 20-plus years of tyranny. And it's hard to
believe that in 20 days democracy will emerge. But the point we're
making is, is that the foundation for democracy is now being laid. And
the -- and by the way, there's nothing wrong with nationalism within
Iraq. People say the United States should leave, and we want to leave
-- as soon as we've accomplished our mission.
Q: How long will that take?
THE PRESIDENT: Somebody asked me the other day, how long is it going
to take to get rid of Saddam Hussein's regime? My answer is, as long
as necessary.
Q: But it may take as long as two years --
THE PRESIDENT: It could. It could. Or less, who knows? But the point
I'm making is, is that we are there to promote security, to make sure
life returns back to normal. And to help the Iraqi people establish a
government, because we believe that democracy can work within Iraq.
And nationalism, by the way, you know, means it's more likely that a
government will evolve that is focused on Iraq, its traditions and its
history, as opposed to focusing on a particular religion.
Q: Is Iran trying to take root in southern Iraq, in your judgment?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you know, you hear a lot of reports about the
vacuums being filled by Iranian agents. We certainly hope that Iraq --
Iran will allow Iraq to develop into a stable and peaceful society. We
have sent the word to the Iranians that that's what we expect. I talk
to Tony Blair and Jose Maria Aznar on a regular basis -- talked to
them yesterday, and this subject came up. And both of them have got
contacts with the Iranian government and they will send the same
message, similar to what we did to Syria: that we expect there to be
cooperation and --
Q: And if there is not, is Iran next?
THE PRESIDENT: No, we just expect them to cooperate, and we will work
with the world to encourage them to cooperate. We have no military
plans. Just like I said about Syria. I mean, listen, the world, a lot
of the -- frankly, the left wing critics of our policy have said, you
know, these people are so militaristic they're getting ready to invade
Syria. That was the line of the day. We made it clear to the Syrians
we expect them to cooperate.
Q: And are they responding?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I think they are. They're doing a better job. The
borders look like they're tighter. As we find people that have escaped
into Syria, we're giving the Syrian government the names of the
people. And they appear to want to be helpful.
Q: Let me ask you about the future of some other relationships that we
have, with the United Nations, for example. There are two people who
admire you very much and are powerful pundits in Washington. George
Will and Bill Kristol have said of the U.N., George Will saying: if
it's not the end as we know it, it should be. And Bill Kristol has
said: the U.N. I used to think was just useless, now I think is
harmful.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I would hope that the U.N. would be useful. I
would hope that the U.N. would be an effective body at helping deal
with the new threats of the 21st century, dealing with terror and
terrorist states and proliferation of weapons.
And I can understand why some are frustrated with the United Nations,
because the United Nations looked like it was not willing to join in
the cause of freedom. And it was frustrating to Americans that it
looked like the United Nations might hold up U.S. foreign policy that
was being conducted in the name of peace and security.
On the other hand, I was the person that went to the United Nations in
the first place. It was my decision to go give the speech on September
12, 2002, that called the United Nations to account. The United
Nations will have a useful role in the reconstruction of Iraq, for
example, because a lot of nations won't be able give reconstruction
money without a U.N. conduit.
And there is a role in this case for the United Nations. I hope as
threats emerge the United Nations will be more responsive to those
threats.
Q: Are you going to invite French President Chirac to the ranch in
Crawford?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, my first guest will be John Howard -- well, first
guest from this moment forward will be John Howard, and he's coming --
Q: The Prime Minister of Australia?
THE PRESIDENT: The Prime Minister of Australia, he's a great friend
and a wonderful ally, will be coming a week from Friday.
Q: Well, what about President Chirac, though?
THE PRESIDENT: You really -- you're really not going to get any
comment. I doubt he'll be coming to the ranch any time soon. On the
other hand, you know, there are some strains in the relationship,
obviously, because of -- it appeared to some in our administration and
our country that the French position was anti-American. And my concern
about the French position is it would weaken -- the position they took
could weaken the NATO alliance. NATO is a very important alliance;
it's something that we've not only worked to modernize, I've worked to
expand NATO. And it's very important that Europe not become fractured,
to the point where the United States won't have relations with a
united Europe whole, free and at peace.
And, hopefully, the past tensions will subside and the French won't be
using their position within Europe to create alliances against the
United States, or Britain or Spain or any of the new countries that
are the new democracies in Europe.
Q: We've talked about this before. Now that the war in Iraq is
effectively over, have you thought about a Bush doctrine that is a
comprehensive structure of some kind, on a global basis, for dealing
with weapons of mass destruction and the need, even, of preemptive
strikes against rogue nations?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Bush doctrine is actually being defined by
action, as opposed to by words. Although, I think if you compile a lot
of the speeches I've given, you could come up with the Bush doctrine.
The way I view the post-Saddam Iraq opportunities are these, one, that
we can deal more effectively with weapons of mass destruction, that we
made it clear that people who harbor weapons of mass destruction will
be dealt with. Hopefully, most of it can be done diplomatically. And
you'll see us -- see me, as well as members of my administration,
begin to push for new international protocols that will make
international organizations more effective at stopping the spread of
weapons of mass destruction.
I also believe that reform in the Middle East, as well as Middle East
peace, is an initiative that we will continue to -- that I will push,
and push -- particularly in the Middle East peace process, I will work
hard to achieve the two-state solution. And we have a good opportunity
to do so.
There are other parts of the Bush doctrine, if you want to call it
that, that are equally important. One, the AIDS initiative in Africa
is an incredibly important initiative and I intend to call upon
Europe, particularly the wealthier nations in Europe, to join us in
providing the medicines, the anti-retroviral drugs and the strategies
necessary to start saving lives, more lives on the continent of
Africa.
There's a lot of things where we can work together, is my point, to
overcome any differences that might have existed on the Iraq policy.
Q: Before the war began, we were told by any number of people in your
administration that a lot of the leaders of the Middle East were
privately saying: we hope that you get rid of Saddam Hussein. Once the
war was over, they did not go public with praise for the United States
-- Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, our best friends in that region. While
on the Arab street, there continue to be very strong criticism to what
we were doing.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I can understand that. I mean, these guys -- first
of all, the thing that was important with those countries is they
provided us help when we asked for help. We needed basing help in
certain countries, and they provided it. That was one of the reasons
why were successful against Saddam Hussein. We asked, and they
delivered.
Part of the frustrations that exist in the Middle East -- and I
recognize this -- is the fact that there is no movement toward peace
with the Palestinians. Part of the frustration in the Middle East is
also the fact that some of these governments need to enact reforms,
and that's why both reform and working on the Middle East for peace
will be priorities of mine.
Q: Is the Middle East peace process going to accelerate greatly now
that Arafat has accepted a Prime Minister? And has Arafat been removed
effectively from the equation?
THE PRESIDENT: I think it will accelerate, and, hopefully, greatly.
I'm not so sure what that exactly means, but it will certainly
accelerate from where we are today.
The selection of Abu Mazen as the Prime Minster is very positive,
primarily because Abu Mazen has stated publicly that he is against
terror and will use whatever powers he has to fight off the terrorist
activities that have really prevented peace from moving forward.
In my June 24th speech I laid out --
Q: Will you have him to the White House without Arafat, for example?
THE PRESIDENT: I will one of these days, yes.
Q: Without Arafat?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, absolutely. Listen, I always felt -- first of all,
I looked at the history of Mr. Arafat. Now, I saw what he did to
President Clinton. There was no need to spend capital, unless you had
an interlocutor who could deliver the Palestinian people toward peace.
And I believe Abu Mazen is a man dedicated to peace, and I look
forward to working with him for the two-state solution. My view is, is
that the only way for there to be peace and for the survival of Israel
and for the hope of the Palestinian people is for two states living
side by side in peace. And I've laid out a plan to achieve that, a
plan that calls upon actions by the Israelis, by the Palestinians, as
well as by the Arab nations surrounding that troubled part of the
world.
Q: There used to be an American doctrine about when we go to war it's
overwhelming force. Now it's speed and flexibility, based on Iraq, and
instant communication -- not only behind the scenes, but everybody
gets to look in on the battlefield.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, the instant communications part was one of the
reasons why I was comfortable in giving Tommy Franks and the
commanders in the field the go-ahead to take the shot at Saddam
Hussein on the first day. Because there in the Oval Office we were
getting near instant feedback from eyes on the ground what he was
seeing, what he felt the conditions were like. It was an amazing
moment to think that a person risking his life, viewing the farms,
watching the entries, seeing, observing what was taking place inside
one of Saddam's most guarded facilities, was able to pick up a device,
call CENTCOM, and CENTCOM would call us in near real-time.
And the ability to communicate has changed the nature of warfare. It
allows for more interoperability; more ability for the Navy and the
Air Force and the Special Ops and the Army and the Marines to work
side by side in a coordinated basis. Which makes it easier to fight a
war with flexibility and speed and precision. So the doctrine really
has changed.
As well, it's an amazing concept when you think about real-time TV
focusing on war. And by the way, I express -- Laura and I express our
deepest sympathies to David Bloom's wife and his family. I knew him
well during the campaign, he was a great journalist and really a good
fellow, loved his family a lot but, you know, to think that David was
there --
Q: Rocketing across the desert.
THE PRESIDENT: -- rocketing across the desert. It's an amazing
feeling.
Q: I don't want you to give up sources and methods, but the guy who
called in the first time -- still with us?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, he is. He is with us. Thank God. A brave soul.
Q: That's great.
11:47 P.M. EDT
* * * * *
2:45 P.M. EDT
Q: Listen, now that the war in Iraq is over, the whole country is
turning its attention back to the economy -- and there's -- on the
Hill, in your own party, there's a lot of skepticism about whether or
not the tax cuts can get the job done. You started at $750 billion;
you've now been talking about $550 billion; the Senate is talking
about $350 billion. Would you take $350 billion?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I think it ought to be -- actually, I think it
ought to be more robust, and the reason why is because a lot of
economists have told me that the tax cut needs to be sizeable enough
to affect demand and job creation. And that's why I'm pushing what I'm
pushing, and I'm not going to quit pushing until they end up voting. I
believe it's the right thing.
The American people need to know that last January I put out a job
plan, and the Congress has been debating it, talking about it. And it
was important in January, it's important now. And I expect them to get
a good jobs bill out.
Q: The Congressional Budget Office, however, says, you know, they've
looked at with three or four different models and it's just going to
be too small in terms of the impact on the overall economy.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I disagree with that. I would like -- I would
hope that they would argue the case on the floor of the Senate before
(inaudible) the skeptics. One of the things they also said was it's
very important to hold the line on spending -- that's another thing,
that we accomplished something in the budget, discretionary spending
is being held to about 4 percent. On the spending side we've got
restraint, we just need to make sure the package is robust enough to
create new jobs so people can find work.
Q: It's tough to come out here to Ohio, though. You've got a
Republican governor who went in at a very high number, and now he's
down to around 42 percent, in terms of approval rating; he's having to
raise taxes, cut services. Wouldn't it be better to defer a little
bit, get him off the hook? And these are important services that he's
talking about -- it's about Medicaid and --
THE PRESIDENT: No, not at all. Actually, what's important is -- and
this is the reason we come to Ohio, it's a place where people are
looking for work. And I feel so strongly that my job package will
work, I'm willing to come to a place where people need work. And so
let's get this done in the Congress. And this is the perfect place to
bring a message of job creation, because there are people here that --
in the manufacturing sector, in particular -- that are looking for
work.
Q: Mr. President, I've been struck by the fact that you now have the
country's attention and there's been almost no discussion about the
need for conservation on energy and finding renewable sources and
making that the highest of the high priorities. I think the country is
ready to make a sacrifice, to do something.
THE PRESIDENT: Well, actually, there's been a significant discussion
about new sources of energy. I was the guy that stood in front of
Congress and asked Congress to appropriate $1.2 billion to advance the
hyrdogen automobile. In other words -- as well as ask Congress to
appropriate monies to explore the opportunities for nuclear fusion.
And I believe that instead of getting mired in this talk about command
and control and lawsuits and regulations, that we ought to use our
technological capabilities to leapfrog the status quo, and lead the
world to a more energy efficient society.
Q: But should we also assume that we can burn at the same rate that we
have been? And, you know, there's just no question about it, we've
been on an energy consumption binge.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, that's right. And I think that that's why we need
new technologies to help us go from one era -- a hydrocarbon era -- to
a technologically-driven era. And I believe we can get there. We've
got energy for, you know, a decade or two, without the consumer
suffering badly. But now is the time to move on new technologies. This
is precisely the initiative I laid out for Congress.
Q: You're not going to get the Arctic Wildlife Refuge this time,
though, do you think?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, it's foolish not to, in my judgment. There's a
lot of natural gas up there. And the reason we need natural gas here
in America is so places like California built a lot of electrical
plants that run on natural gas -- we've got to get it from somewhere.
And I believe we can explore in the Arctic Wildlife in an
environmentally sensitive way -- and so do a lot of other people.
But it's become such a political issue. Washington, you know, is a
town that -- you know this better than me, I mean --
Q: No, I don't know it better than you. You're in the cockpit.
(Laughter.)
THE PRESIDENT: Well, you've been there longer than me, you're much
older than I am. (Laughter.) But they take an issue and turn it into
such high politics. Really, the Arctic Wildlife Refuge is a classic
example of an issue that's been over-politicized, where the science
never is allowed to emerge. We can drill for natural gas, which we
need to do, in an environmentally safe way.
Q: Let me ask you about the war and your attitudes about it. It's well
known that you're a man of very strong faith. You have political and
national security responsibilities, as well. Was there a time when it
was difficult to reconcile those two roles -- your political and
national security responsibility and your own spiritual obligation?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, listen, any time you think about committing
someone into combat is an emotional moment. You can't be detached from
the human life involved with war. And I genuinely feel that the
decision I made will make America more secure. And I felt like the
risks of doing nothing, the risk of taking no action far exceeded the
risks of combat, particularly since I knew our plan was geared toward
minimizing life -- minimizing loss of life -- not only minimizing loss
of life on our side, but on the side of the innocent Iraqis.
I don't bring God into my life to be a political person; I ask God for
strength and guidance; I ask God to help me be a better decision. The
decision about war and peace is a decision I made based upon what I
thought were the best interests of the American people. I was able to
step back from religion, because I have a job to do. And I, on bended
knee to the good Lord, asked Him to help me to do my job in a way that
that's wise.
Q: I had a difficult moment on the air when the mother of a Marine who
got killed called in -- and wanted to talk about her son. And said:
you know, I like what the networks are doing, but all those graphics
and all that fancy coverage, for those of us who are out here with
children's in harm's way, it's murderous, Mr. Brokaw. And it put it
all in perspective. Did you have a moment like that?
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I think, yes, maybe about the day the prisoners,
the people took the wrong turn, the kids, the cooks and the people
like that from El Paso, Fort Bliss, went the wrong way. That was a
tough day. And it's got to be -- listen, I went down to Camp Lejeune
and met with family of -- who lost their lives. I met a young
lieutenant's wife with a young baby. And it's tough.
The amazing thing is, of course -- I shouldn't say "of course" -- but
the amazing thing about meeting those people is they gave me great
strength. They were proud of their loved ones' sacrifice; they
understood why we were there. And they were strong, really strong.
Q: There was a young Marine who was killed whose father in Baltimore
held up his picture and said: I want the President to see this; it's
my only son and I want the President to see this picture.
He was opposed to the war. Did you see it?
THE PRESIDENT: No, I didn't see that, but I'm sure I can understand
why a dad would feel that way. I would feel the same way if I were a
dad about how miserable I felt if I lost my son.
Q: Can you imagine being FDR and running World War II all those years?
Truman, Korea? All the years that Vietnam went on and 57,000 lives
were lost.
THE PRESIDENT: I know.
Q: Now that you've had your own --
THE PRESIDENT: One month.
Q: -- one month, but your own time on the crucible, to know what the
country would go through?
THE PRESIDENT: It's a very interesting question, because -- yes, I
know, I can't imagine what it would be like to have been through the
Vietnam War as the President of the United States. I hope I would have
done it differently, I hope I would have had a clearer mission and
given the militaries the tools and their strategy necessary to achieve
a mission, as opposed to politicizing the war the way they did. But
you're right, it's a strain on the country.
On the other hand, the coverage was a little different.
Q: It was.
THE PRESIDENT: The perpetual moves 24 hours a day.
Q: And part of that was, by the way, that it became very emotional
very quickly. One of the things that you said was that you wanted to
liberate the Iraqi people so they could speak their minds. But in this
country, when some people spoke their minds when it happened to be in
opposition of the war, they got jumped on by a lot of folks.
THE PRESIDENT: Oh, I don't think so.
Q: Well, the Dixie Chicks, for example. Would you have them come to
the White House?
THE PRESIDENT: I mean, the Dixie Chicks are free to speak their mind.
They can say what they want to say. And just because -- they shouldn't
have their feelings hurt just because some people don't want to buy
their records when they speak out. You know, freedom is a two-way
street. But I have -- don't really care what the Dixie Chicks said. I
want to do what I think is right for the American people, and if some
singers or Hollywood stars feel like speaking out, that's fine. That's
the great thing about America. It stands in stark contrast to Iraq, by
the way.
Q: What did you and Laura talk about at the end of the day? During
Osama bin Laden she was counseling you on your language -- (laughter)
-- saying --
THE PRESIDENT: It wasn't so every day. (Laughter.)
Q: -- Georgie, you don't have to say "wanted dead or alive."
THE PRESIDENT: Well, she counsels me on a lot of things. Most of the
time it's -- but who's going to listen. She understood all along why I
was making decisions I was making. She understood the threat that Iraq
posed. She understood that Iraq was a part of the war on terror. And
she doesn't -- she's like a lot of people, she was nervous about war.
Q: So was your dad, by the way.
THE PRESIDENT: I'm sure he was. Nobody likes wars.
Q: Did your dad talk to you every day?
THE PRESIDENT: No. I check-in with him on occasion but, now, we don't
talk every day.
Q: How about Barbara, what does she have to say, your mother?
THE PRESIDENT: She's as feisty as ever. She's doing well. She doesn't
follow everything in the news and the opinion like Dad does; he's an
every word man.
Q: Do you seek his counsel? It's a little tricky. Here's your father,
somebody that you revered and love, and he's been there before. But at
the same time, you're now the President. How do you work that out?
THE PRESIDENT: Well, I really don't spend a lot of time hashing over
policy with him. He knows that I am much better informed than he could
possibly be. He gives me -- our relationship is more of, and our
conversations are more along the line of a dad and a son, a dad
conveying to his son how much he loves him. Which is important, even
at the age of 56 years old it's important.
Q: Did you call him the day the statue came down of Saddam Hussein?
THE PRESIDENT: I can't remember.
Q: Because that was a memorable day.
THE PRESIDENT: It was. It was.
Q: Did you watch all that?
THE PRESIDENT: I watched some of it. As you know, I've got a schedule
to keep; I don't have time to sit around watching TV all day long. But
somebody -- I think the Ashley or Blake said, the statue, they're
about to get it down. They had a guy hammering on it for a while, and
I watched the hammering --
Q: It took a while to pull it down.
THE PRESIDENT: I watched them hammer. And then they said, they're
hooking it up and they've got the crane out there. And I said, well,
let me know. They said, well, it's about to come down. So I hustled
and then watched it.
Q: And what about the Iraqi information minister? (Laughter.)
THE PRESIDENT: He's my man, he was great. (Laughter.) Somebody accused
us of hiring him and putting him there. He was a classic.
Q: Al-Sahhaf.
THE PRESIDENT: Al-Sahhaf.
Q: He said: we are repulsing them at the airport, this war is just
about over. (Laughter.)
THE PRESIDENT: He was great. (Laughter.)
Q: Did you watch him actually? (Laughter.)
THE PRESIDENT: I did watch some of his clips. You know, a lot of the
stuff I get, people come in and report to me -- did you hear what
so-and-so said, or, did you see that? So I get a lot of things
secondhand.
But in the case of the statue or Sahhaf, somebody would say, he's
getting ready to speak, and I'd pop out of a meeting or turn and watch
the TV.
Q: And did they tell you when Saddam made those bizarre video
appearances very late in the war, when he was said to be walking
around the neighborhood --
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I saw some of that. Like, Condi will come in and
say -- I'll pick up the phone, I've got direct link now -- I'll say,
well, Condi, what is this business about, what does the Agency say
about this latest videotape. She'll pop in and say, you know, I talked
to Tenet and Tenet says our analysts can't imagine that the guy could
possibly be alive, walking around Baghdad the same day the statue came
down.
You know, as I told you, we had some evidence early on that strikes
from the first day may have gotten him. I say "may" because we don't
have the DNA in hand to prove, and people really don't want to be in a
position, Tom, where you make -- broadcasting success and then all of
a sudden Saddam Hussein shows up somewhere. According to this one
eyewitness, he's not going to show up anywhere.
Q: Final question. You still have two big issues out there on the
horizon: al Qaeda and North Korea. North Korea today saying that it's
reprocessed 8,000 plutonium rods and if you don't start talking to
them, they're willing to sell them.
THE PRESIDENT: Yes. See, they're back to the old blackmail game. One
of our goals and objectives must be to strengthen the nonproliferation
regimes and get the whole world focused on proliferation of weapons of
mass destruction or the materials for weapons of mass destruction, and
North Korea is making my case, that we've got to come together.
And we started that process in the North Korean peninsula that is
coming together. The Chinese now, for the first time, are partners at
the table. I look forward to hearing what the Chinese say about being
rebuffed by the North Koreans because they, too, believe that the
Peninsula ought to be nuclear weapons-free. This will give us an
opportunity to say to the North Koreans and the world we're not going
to be threatened. ON the other hand we, the world, must come together
to make sure institutions like the IAEA are effective at stopping
proliferation.
It's another reason, by the way for us to also advance the missile
defense systems, because the missile defense system will make it less
likely that a nuclear country could blackmail us or Japan or any one
of our friends.
Q: And al Qaeda?
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, we're on the hunt on al Qaeda.
Q: Has it diminished 50 percent, 70 percent?
THE PRESIDENT: I can't give you a number, but it's certainly
diminished. And Kalid Sheik Mohammed's arrest, right before the Iraqi
war, was a blow to the al Qaeda network. They're still moving around,
and we're watching. And we're moving. We're cutting off money. There
are some parts of Afghanistan where we think some are hiding, and
we've got -- we're on their trail.
The other day, for example, in the Situation Room, we had Tommy up and
he gave us a briefing on Iraq. He's the CENTCOM commander, as you
know, also responsible for Afghanistan, and then the general in place
in Afghanistan came up. So we split the briefing between Iraq and
Afghanistan. And it was an important briefing because he was telling
us troop strength and troop strategies, as well as how well the
country is beginning to get on its feet.
But the point I'm trying to make is, is that we are constantly moving
against al Qaeda in Afghanistan as we speak, or as we conduct the Iraq
theater.
Q: Mr. President, thank you very much for your time today, we really
appreciate it.
THE PRESIDENT: I enjoyed it.
Q: Thank you. I enjoyed it a lot.
3:05 P.M. EDT
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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