Military

DATE=02/22/2003

TYPE=ON THE LINE

NUMBER=1-01284

TITLE=THE BRING THEM HOME ALIVE ACT

INTERNET=Yes

EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY 619-0037

CONTENT=

THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

[Please note, this is a rebroadcast of a show originally broadcast 08-30-02.]

Host: Bringing home Americans missing in action.

Next, On The Line.

Host: Over eight thousand American servicemen are listed as missing in action from the Korean War. More than one-thousand nine hundred others remain unaccounted for from the Vietnam War. In an effort to help any missing or captured Americans who might still be alive, the U-S Congress passed the "Bring Them Home Alive Act of 2000." The law provides that an individual and his family can receive refugee status and resettlement in the U-S, if the individual delivers into the custody of the United States government a living American serviceman listed as unaccounted for from either the Korean War or the Vietnam War. This reward is available to anyone who is a national of Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, China, North Korea, or any of the independent states of the former Soviet Union. Joining me to talk about the "Bring Them Home Alive Act" are Adrian Kronauer, special assistant in the P-O-W and Missing Personnel Office at the Department of Defense, and Rick Wilson, special assistant to Representative Dan Burton for veteran's affairs. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us today. Adrian Kronauer, how did this law come into being? What was the impetus behind it?

Kronauer: Well, there were a number of organizations of veterans and activists and people involved in the issue of P-O-Ws [prisoners of war] and M-I-As [soldiers missing in action] who talked to a number of people on Capitol Hill and suggested that it wasn't going to cost the government any money to implement this, other than just publicizing it. And, if somebody could bring out a live American, wouldn't that be wonderful? So it garnered political support in the House, and the next thing you know, we have a law on our hands.

Host: Rick Wilson, in the Capitol, I take it that you hear often from people who still have relatives and loved ones that are on that missing in action list, wanting to know what's being done.

Wilson: We hear from folks who have a loved one or relative that's missing. We also hear from an awful lot of veterans who left their buddies behind, and in the military - as you are probably well aware -- that's something that they just don't like to do. I think some of our most vocal support is back in the Congressman's [Burton] district, and here in Washington, comes from those veterans' groups and those organizations that want the fullest possible accounting that we can provide.

Kronauer: And that's what our office is all about as well, is the fullest possible accounting. Some people think that all we do is we look for dead bodies, and that is not true at all. When I went through basic training in the Air Force, they told me, "your government - the military -- takes care of its own, your government will never abandon you. If you get lost behind enemy lines, we will do everything in our power to get you out before you're captured. If you get captured, we will move Heaven and Earth to get you released. And God forbid, if you perish in enemy hands, we will do everything humanly possible to retrieve your remains and return them to your loved ones and to the United States for an honorable hero's burial." That was a promise that was made to all military people, and they believed it. So our office's motto is, "keeping the promise." That's what we're trying to do.

Host: And this is the P-O-W and M-I-A Office at the Department of Defense?

Kronauer: That's right. Our chief is the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense, by the name of Jerry Jennings, and he has come in with some very strong feelings about these issues. We certainly are interested in keeping people from becoming captured, and a section of our office is involved in that, in rescue policies and so forth. And then, of course, we are trying to retrieve remains. But also, every single time we get a report of a possibility of a live American we follow it up. And we will continue following it until the trail runs out or it turns out to be a dry hole. But we do follow them up. Unfortunately, so far, we haven't retrieved any live Americans, but that does not mean we don't follow them up. We do.

Host: Rick Wilson, how does the "Bring Them Home Alive Act" work in practice?

Wilson: Well fundamentally, Eric, what the act is designed to do is to provide. You have to understand, and many Americans don't understand, that these were former Communist countries. Many of them are still Communist countries. They are oppressive regimes. Americans tend to think of the P-O-W issue as individuals, as opposed to a strategic sense, a broader sense. What this act is designed to do is to tell those people that may have information, or may have access to living American service personnel who are being held against their will in the named countries, that if you can bring them out, and bring them to the American embassy, or bring them to an American consulate, or bring them to an American official, that we will take you and your family and bring them to America. Much in the same way - it's not the same -- but it's akin to what we do with the Cubans now. If a Cuban can get to this country, we give them citizenship, automatic asylum. This is the same concept here. If you can get us a living American serviceperson, we will take you and your family out of that environment. Because if we take the individual, and leave his family, they'll be killed. I mean, they'll be killed. And that's why they won't do it, because they know that.

Kronauer: And it [the act] does apply to any parent, spouse, or child of the individual, as well as the individuals themselves. There's also something that is sort of a side issue, but it applies here. There's something that's called a "blood chit." Every American pilot carries with him a piece of paper, printed in several languages - usually languages that might be spoken where he would be in danger of being brought down -- and it says, in essence, "I am an American pilot, and I have gotten lost here in your country. If you can get me out and back into American hands, my government will reward you." That, even longer than the "Bring Them Back Alive Act," has been a policy of the U.S. government going all the way back at least to Vietnam.

Host: But now that is to say if you were to bring someone out, given that information, but just having that piece of paper and giving that piece of paper to someone does not count under the "Bring Them Home Alive Act".?

Kronauer: No. But if the pilot gets back and he says "Eric helped me," then the government will reward you [the host] for the help you gave him.

[cross talk]

Host: And traditionally, has that happened?

Kronauer: It has happened a number of times.

Wilson: I think it's also very important to remember - and Adrian brought this up -- this is a living U-S serviceperson. This isn't bringing out the remains, or bringing out a dog tag or bringing out a tattered flight suit or an old helmet. It's bringing out a live, living breathing American serviceperson.

Host: A question for either of you. When were the last living P-O-Ws released or found from either the Vietnam War or the Korean War?

Kronauer: Probably at the homecoming in 1973.

Host: So there have been none since then?

Kronauer: No.

Host: Let's look particularly at the countries involved. Perhaps we could talk first about North Korea. Why would North Korea still hold anyone? Is there any reason to believe that North Korea could be holding any P-O-Ws?

Kronauer: I spent some time, Eric, this year on two occasions, a week each in Bangkok, trying to negotiate with the North Koreans. And quite honestly, I find it very difficult to understand why they do a lot of things, so. [laughter]. But it would be the same reasons that are given -- the possibility of any government wanting to hold a P-O-W: a) as a bargaining chip, and b) as something to use as a shield in case they felt that we were going to attack one of their buildings. They'd say, "Eric is that building. You don't want to hurt him. Therefore, don't bomb it." Hmmm, what other reasons.?

Wilson: I was going to say - I think a lot of it is just the pride of, you know. you have to understand that a lot of these countries just don't like us for what we are and what we stand for. And to be able to say, 'We have captured one of them, and we can keep him as long as we want." It's almost.

Kronauer: . a trophy.

Wilson: It's a trophy, a national prize.

Host: Rick Wilson, why are the former states of the Soviet Union also on this list?

Wilson: You have to understand that the overwhelming majority - the Koreans, the Vietnamese, the North Vietnamese, even the Iraqis, to a degree - they were Soviet client states. Let's not kid ourselves. These people were then, and in many cases, are still operating under those old Soviet-style tactics and strategies. There was a long history of these countries sending American service personnel -- going all the way back to World War Two - back to the former Soviet Union. In fact, the D-P-M-O [Defense Department P-O-W and Missing Personnel Office] has had conversations, and the State Department has had conversations, with the old Soviet government and the new Russian government on this issue going back several years. Adrian [Kronauer] could probably address that better than I can.

Kronauer: For example, Bosnia was part of the old Soviet empire and we have troops there now. If one of them would get lost, or get taken prisoner by someone, some rogue faction, this act would apply.

Host: But there has been yet nothing to suggest that since the Soviet Union fell that there are any Americans being held.?

Wilson: There's no information that I'm aware of. And I also.

Kronauer: No, no, I've got to back up on that because I was just thinking, the act does not apply to people who are involved in peacekeeping activities. It only applies to people who were lost either in the Vietnam War or the Korean War. And now there is legislation before Congress to apply this to [Operation] Desert Storm as well.

Host: Let's talk about that, actually. I'd like to bring into our conversation someone by phone. In July 2002, the U-S Senate voted to extend the "Bring Them Home Alive Act" to cover the Persian Gulf war, which is what you were just mentioning. The move was prompted in part by the case of U-S Navy pilot Michael Speicher [SPIKE-er], shot down over Iraq on the first night of the 1991 Gulf War. Lieutenant Commander Speicher was at first believed to have been killed in action. But later investigations failed to find conclusive evidence that he was dead. Speicher's designation has been changed from killed in action to missing in action. Some believe that he might be a prisoner of Saddam Hussein.

Joining us by phone from Norfolk, Virginia, is Amy Waters Yarsinske [Yahr-SIN-ski], author of a book on the Speicher case. Welcome, Amy, thanks for joining us.

Yarsinske: Well. Thanks for having me on.

Host: Is there any reason to believe that Lieutenant Commander Speicher might still be alive?

Yarsinske: I think there is evidence that, yes there is, and its been accumulating here for eleven years. More recently, I think, the 1991 war sightings, the driver [an Iraqi who claimed to have driven Speicher to Bahgdad]. We've acquired and debriefed and polygraphed and.

Host: . And these are Iraqis you're referring to?

Yarsinske: Right. They've been.

Host: Let's talk real quickly. Why was Lieutenant Commander Speicher listed as "killed in action" in the first place?

Yarsinske: Well, he actually initially remained M-I-A for the duration of the war and then for a couple of months afterwards. He was not declared K-I-A-B-N-R, [killed in action, body not recovered] until May 22nd, which was the official date of 1991. And at that point, that was a breach of public law at that time. He had a year and a day, from the day he was shot down, as an M-I-A, and that was the initial error there. He was in that status of K-I-A-B-N-R of course, as we know, until 1996, and it switched for one day. They reverted his status to M-I-A from the time he was shot down until September 30th of '96 and then changed again the next day back to K-I-A-B-N-R. It was a very strange status change for him. Then he went back and stayed K-I-A-N-B-R for another five years.

Host: Now, just to get the basics out on this. His plane was shot down on the first night [cross talk]. Was there any body recovered or anything?

Yarsinske: No, no, none.

Host: The Iraqi government turned over some partial remains.

Yarsinske: A pound and a half of flesh, right.

Host: Have there been tests on that?

Yarsinske: There were tests done and they determined in March of 1991 that these were not his remains and that was verified by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology and independent testing at that time down in North Carolina and they came to the same conclusion. It was not his.

Host: Now, has the investigation since then - they found Lieutenant Commander Speicher's plane looked at the ejection seat, other things about looking at the plane. Is there any evidence that suggests, one way or another, whether he got out of the plane?

Yarsinske: They determined that the ejection occurred and the ejection sequence was initiated by the pilot. From what they could tell, looking at the aircraft -- the canopy that had ejected away from the airplane with him when the seat deployed -- he had what would be a high altitude ejection. The canopy ended up where it should have been, away from the aircraft. When the rest of it went down in one area, it went down in a radius away from the airplane. So, he was away from the airplane. They found pieces of his gear, little bits and pieces of things. You know, after so many years in the desert environment, things get picked up by the Bedouins and things and carted off. They did find what they needed to find in order to tell that he was out of the airplane, that he didn't go down with the airplane.

Host: And there was a flight suit returned to the U-S from Iraq?

Yarsinske: There was a flight suit handed over to the investigators in the desert when they went out to investigate and there are conflicting reports about the flight suit. And of course the flight suit has been lost. So, they don't have it for re-examination and that was error in judgment, I suppose. But it's gone.

Host: Is there any way that this case can be further investigated at this point?

Yarsinske: I don't think the Iraqis are going to share much about [Michael] Scott Speicher with us. In terms of what the assistant to the Representative [Rick Wilson] said, it was correct to say that Scott is a trophy. He falls in the category of a trophy prisoner. Saddam has his reasons for keeping trophy prisoners for long periods of time, and then sometimes he will show some proclivity for letting them go. But he'll let them go after many, many years have passed. He keeps them very separate from the rest of the prisoner population.

Host: Well, Amy Yarsinske, author of the book No One Left Behind, on the Scott Speicher case, I want to thank you for joining us from Norfolk, Virginia, to talk about this man who is now listed as missing as action.

Adrian Kronauer, now I know that there are issues regarding classified information and unclassified information. But without in any way suggesting information that is classified, what is the official position of the federal government about the Speicher case?

Kronauer: Well, the first thing I should mention is that he has been promoted. So it's no longer Lieutenant Commander, or even Commander, it's now Captain Michael Scott Speicher. The official position of the government, what we can tell you with all honesty and candor, we have no proof positive that he is dead. On the other hand, we have no proof positive that he is alive. The only thing we know for sure is, the Iraqis know more than they're telling us. Now in a situation like that the only moral, the only logical, the only rational way to approach it is to say, "Well, if there is a possibility he is still alive, then we have to act accordingly and presume that he is alive, and do all of the things that we have to do to follow up." We do not just sit back and wait until we hear reports. When we do hear reports, we follow them up as far as we can. And we are out there - I say "we", the government in general and the intelligence community -- we are out there turning over stone after stone trying to find more clues, to find out what happened to Scott Speicher.

Host: Rick Wilson, the Senate has unanimously voted to extend the "Bring Them Home Alive Act" to apply to the Persian Gulf war.

Wilson: That's correct, that's correct.

Host: You work on the House side. Is there enthusiasm in the House as well?

Wilson: Yes, I suspect - and this is my opinion -- the same order of sequence will happen in the House as in the Senate -- it will bring it up under suspension and the amendment will pass. But I think it's important, Eric, to remember one thing. We talk about all of this stuff in the abstract. But it's important to remember that there are families and there are loved ones of these soldiers, sailors, airmen, and Marines. And dead or alive, we owe them our best efforts, our very best technological, diplomatic, and legislative efforts, to get the fullest possible accounting and the truth about what happened to these men so that these families can have some closure. And I think that's really where the important part of this whole thing is. If the "Bring Them Home Alive Act" can help, in some small way, to do that, to bring a live American service person home, or if it can lead to the answers, the truth about what happened to these individuals, then I think it's a good piece of legislation. D-P-M-O can certainly use it as a tool, Voice of America and the other government broadcasting entities can use it as a tool, to get the word out, that this is something that is available to these people. If it gets us closer to learning about the fate of these people, I think it's a terrific thing that's going to go a long way to putting to rest some of these nagging questions.

Kronauer: And our office, D-P-M-O, certainly.

Host: And D-P-M-O stands for.?

Kronauer: Defense Prisoner of War and Missing Persons Office. But we call it "the P-O-W and M-I-A office." It's easier to get that idea across. But our office certainly does not oppose this bill in any way, shape, or form. Nothing would give greater happiness - we would throw one gigantic party - if anybody was able to actually bring out a live American for us. We would love it to happen.

Host: Let's talk a little bit about the work that you do day in and day out which, in general, applies more to finding remains of servicemen who were killed in action. How is that process going on, and what kind of negotiations have you been in with various countries?

Kronauer: Well, actually our scope, if you will, goes all the way back to World War Two. We recently had a team of anthropologists or archeologists in the Kwajalein Atoll trying to find the remains from Americans who were killed by the Japanese during World War Two. But we have detachments of what we call J-T-F-F-A - Joint Task Force for Full Accounting -- and they have detachments over in Cambodia, in Thailand, in Laos, and in Vietnam. We also send teams into North Korea. Actually, its getting a lot harder to find remains in Vietnam because we sort of picked the low hanging fruit - the easy cases to find - and now we have to do a lot more work to find them. In Korea, for example, it's a lot easier, because many people died in prison camps and were buried right there, on or near the premises of the prison camps. So the big problem there is not to find them so much as to negotiate with the North Koreans for permission to get in.

Host: I'm afraid that's all the time we have for today. I'd like to thank my guests, Adrian Kronauer, of the Department of Defense, Rick Wilson, of Representative Dan Burton's office, and author Amy Waters Yarsinske.

For On The Line, Eric Felten.