Military

DATE=08/29/02

TYPE=INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

TITLE=NEIL LIVINGSTONE, CHAIRMAN OF GLOBAL OPTIONS

NUMBER=3-320

BYLINE=REBECCA WARD

DATELINE=WASHINGTON

INTERNET=

/// Editors: This interview is available in Dalet under SOD/English News Now Interviews in the folder for today or yesterday ///

HOST: The United States has indicted six Muslim men on charges of helping al-Qaida plan attacks inside and outside the United States. Among those arrested was a U-S citizen -- Ernest James Ujaama of Seattle, Washington, who is accused of trying to help al-Qaida set-up a training camp in Oregon. The other five men were arrested in Detroit, Michigan. Terrorism expert Neil Livingstone (pronounced Livingston) says those indictments may prove to be very significant.

MR. LIVINGSTONE: The people in Detroit were involved in certain types of identity forgery, and they had come originally to the attention of Federal authorities that way. And it is now believed, however, that they were part of a sleeper cell in the United States, with direct ties to al-Qaida. They may even have had some involvement in the 9/11 attacks, and certainly may have had some type of involvement in planning future attacks in the United States. So this may be a major breakthrough in terms of rolling up an al-Qaida or pro-al-Qaida cell in the United States.

You have to remember that Detroit is a very easy place for some of these organizations to operate. Dearborn, Michigan, for example, has the largest concentration of Muslims in the United States. And that is by no means an indictment of Muslims there. Most of the Middle Eastern immigrants and Muslim immigrants are simply there working in the auto industry, working in other industries, trying to get ahead, raise families, and so on. But they do give some protective coloration to other people coming from that part of the world who are not interested in raising families, who are not interested in finding jobs and living the American dream, but rather they are here to carry out violent attacks against this country and its citizens.

MS. WARD: I read an article recently -- essentially, the gist of the article was that al-Qaida, or terrorist organizations, might be finding new recruits in gang members, former gang members.

MR. LIVINGSTONE: Well, that has gone on for quite a while. We have to remember that the former Blackstone Rangers from Chicago, a street gang, a very vicious street gang, became the El Rukns gang when they converted to the Muslim faith. They were arrested, it seems to me, almost 20 years ago now for having offered their services to Muammar Qaddafi in Libya, on transatlantic telephone lines, saying, we'd be happy to kill any white people that you would like; just let us know, and we want to be paid for it. And of course, this was Jesse Jackson's half brother who was convicted in that as well.

So we have had some involvement of street gangs or former street gangs or former street gang members converting to the Muslim faith and then seeing an identity of interest with various Middle Eastern terrorist groups.

MS. WARD: How can the United States, or U.S. authorities, distinguish between actual terrorist activity and those who are simply activists?

MR. LIVINGSTONE: Well, the standard changed after Oklahoma City. In that case we had a native-born American, Timothy McVeigh, who had flirted with the militia movement. He wasn't actually a member of any militia. But the government had taken the attitude up to that point that if you wanted to join a militia, that was freedom of speech and you had a right to do that.

After the Oklahoma City attack, the government took the view that we are going to look at organizations that might advocate violence and might try to carry out violent activities. And they said, look, we're going to put them under the microscope, we're going to give them scrutiny, but if no one is actually carrying out violent actions, they will be protected by the First Amendment and other constitutional protections. And I think that is what is really being applied today to Muslim groups.

Clearly, we have a problem with radical Islamists in the United States and abroad. If they are here on our territory, they may come under some type of government scrutiny. And they have a right, by the way, to articulate very extremist philosophy. But if they decide to act on that philosophy, then the government is going to move in and do what it should do, and that is arrest them, indict, and bring them to trial for conspiracy and other crimes.

Host: Neil Livingstone is the author of nine books about terrorism -- and the chairman of Global Options, an international risk management firm here in Washington.

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