Military

DATE=07/06/2002

TYPE=ON THE LINE

NUMBER=1-01152

TITLE= AL-QAIDA FOILED IN MOROCCO

INTERNET=Yes

EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY 619-0037

CONTENT=

THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE

Host: Al-Qaida, foiled in Morocco. Next, On the Line.

Host: Moroccan police arrested three Saudi men, their Moroccan wives and a Moroccan man on charges of plotting terrorist attacks. The Saudi suspects are members of Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network. They stand accused of planning to bomb U-S or British warships in the Strait of Gibraltar. The attack would have been similar to al-Qaida's bombing of the U-S-S Cole in Yemen in 2000. Morocco also arrested Abu Zubair al-Haili, a senior al-Qaida recruiter. Joining me to discuss Morocco's efforts in the global war on terrorism are Edward Gabriel, former U-S ambassador to Morocco; and Steven Cook, a research fellow at the Brookings Institution. Welcome. Thanks for joining me today.

Host: Ed Gabriel, let me start by asking you about the level of cooperation between the U-S and Morocco and the terrorist fight. I take it in February, George Tenet, the head of the C-I-A, went to Morocco and had meetings. Who did he meet there?

Gabriel: He met with all the top brass there, including the king and all the intelligence and military folks. And [he] presented them with evidence that there was possibly some key al-Qaida operatives in the country. And Morocco came through and arrested them in a very cooperative fashion. But, Eric, this is an ongoing story for Morocco. Morocco, over the years, has been a consistent and a very hard-working supporter of the intelligence network, gathering information against terrorism in terrorist networks. So, this is business as usual. The unusual thing was that it was more public this time than it has been in the past.

Host: Steven Cook, let's talk a little bit about [how] George Tenet went with this information. Where did he have this information from?

Cook: I think that, you know, as this operation in Afghanistan and our intelligence gathering apparatus is ramped up to pay closer attention to the terrorist threats since September eleventh, we've been listening to everybody and anybody who gets on a telephone. And so I think that Tenet came, he had clear and convincing evidence for the Moroccans to then take this dramatic step. But like the ambassador said, it's an ongoing story. The difference was, was that it was so public.

Host: Ed, the Moroccans were given information that had also come from some Moroccan prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. And their efforts included, I take it, sending investigators to Guantanamo Bay to help with interrogations there. Tell us a little bit about how this investigation was put together.

Gabriel: Well, the cooperation is complete. It's one-hundred-percent. What we don't see is usual descriptions of this on the front page of the New York Times and the Washington Post to actually say that George Tenet was in Morocco and the Moroccan intelligence went to Guantanamo Bay. These are very surprising kinds of things. In fact, there is an ongoing, monthly cooperation on many matters between our two governments. And so, as Steven said, they picked up some information from the prisoners in captivity. But they also have compared that with other intelligence-gathering they've done from human resources, but most likely also from electronic resources. And when they combined them, they were sure they knew where certain people were, and perhaps what they were doing. Then the Moroccans came and verified where these folks were, and through their own investigation decided that the information was very credible, and that they had to take action. This is [a] very significant effort on their part, because it's something in which -- they have said terrorism will not condoned in Morocco - you can't find safe haven there. And I think it's an important statement by his Majesty [King Mohammed VI].

Host: Speaking of safe haven, Steven Cook, the Saudi men who were at the heart of this plot had come from Afghanistan. What do we know about their role in al-Qaida and getting to Morocco?

Cook: What we do know is that once the U-S campaign got underway in October, that you had elements of al-Qaida scattered throughout the region. And they got considerable assistance from their infrastructure throughout the region in sending them either to Kashmir or to other places throughout North Africa or the Middle East. So, it actually represents a problem for the United States. In one sense, we had them all bottled up in Afghanistan, but in fact they were able to kind of scurry out. And that is why there is concern about continued terrorist attacks against U-S interests in the Strait of Gibraltar, in Europe, or even here in the United States. So, it's not to suggest that these countries are safe havens. It's that it's very hard to track many of these people who come with false passports and identification. And anybody who has been in the Middle East knows that walking down a Syrian street, you're going to run into people from all over the region. In Morocco, you'll find Egyptians, you'll find Algerians, [and] you'll find people from all over. So, it's not unusual to find Saudis someplace else under false pretenses.

Gabriel: Eric, if I may. It's an interesting question to delve into -- the question of the cooperation between America and its Arab friends and allies. Something that I think as we talk about more, we are going to find out, has been ongoing for a number of years, particularly in the intelligence-gathering network. The real question now is, as some of these countries have gotten very visible and very active against terrorism, where will their long-term relationship with America lead them? In other words, they're sticking their necks out. Does America have a long-term vision in terms of how they're going to support them - not only in these efforts once they make the decision, but longer term, when they decide to make changes in their own reforms, political, economic, and otherwise. So, it's really begging the question on what is America's long-term interest in the region. And how can it protect its most vital interest, while it also reaches out to its Arab allies that care to develop very similar forms of government and follow some universal values that we both hold dear to ourselves.

Cook: Can I interject here? Perhaps it's a function of the fact that the ambassador was in government and I'm in academia. I see that when we offer our support to countries in the region on the war on terrorism and that we want them to take these actions, what perhaps in unintended consequences is not a transformation of these regimes from authoritarian regimes, but actually a retrenchment of authoritarian practices in places like Egypt or Algeria or any number of countries, because we want them to take extraordinary security measures. Things that they do routinely, but something that we are now advocating they do, so that any calls for political reform ring hollow, when in fact we are encouraging the Egyptians to take prisoners that they want. They don't have a robust sense of due process in Egypt. So we are actively helping to transfer wanted Egyptians to Egypt so that information will be beaten out of them. So, I think that we need to be careful. The United States needs to be very careful in pursuing a policy that is both one that is robustly against terrorism and one that supports these countries in our fight against terrorism. But at the same time demonstrates a respect for human rights, and that in fact, perhaps an answer to some of the problems that these countries are facing is greater openness and political liberalization. I have my doubts about that, but.

Gabriel: Steven, this is a very good point. I think that the war on terrorism can create an excuse for people to clamp down and go to extreme measures. I mean, you can look at the India-Pakistan situation, the Chechen situation, and even the Israeli-Palestinian situation and see examples of this. So your point is a very important one. It can be used as an excuse for the wrong reason - to clamp down on people. And they would say, after all, we're only doing what you, Mr. President, are trying to do against terrorism. However, some countries, and I think Morocco is among them, see this as an opportunity to bond even closer with America. To say, "you've got needs, we've got needs. We're going to show the courage, we're going to take the chance, but we hope that you're going to partner with us as we reach out for new opportunities and new reforms." I don't know if that's the exception or the rule, but I do know in Morocco's case, they see this as great opportunity to get closer to America on more broad-reaching kinds of reforms that they desire to go after.

Host: How much is Morocco sticking its neck out on this? One of the things they discovered when they were doing surveillance of the men that they suspected of being involved in these plots, was that they were discussing not only attacks on U-S and British ships in the Strait of Gibraltar, but also discussing how to bomb cafés in Marrakech. Things that would have killed not American soldiers, but rather Moroccan civilians. And how does that show the threat to Morocco itself from the terrorist infiltrators?

Gabriel: That's a good point, Eric. This has inflamed the Moroccan public. To think that there were terrorists on their own territory that would kill anyone, including themselves. So there is not tolerance for these people living on Moroccan soil. That's number one. Number two, I think the government, especially his Majesty, King Mohammed the Sixth, doesn't believe you can make deals with these kind of people. These people that are extremist that don't value human life and kill innocent people, don't have a place in Morocco, according to the decisions he has made. So in some ways, it is no risk. Because you've got to do it, it doesn't matter. It's a bigger risk not to do it. However, the fact of the matter is, you're calling attention to yourself and to your country when you do these courageous things. You need backup, you need support [and] you need to know that the world community is going to stick with you, particularly the United States.

Host: Steven Cook, part of that, when they were discussing attacks on cafés in Marrakech, according to Moroccan officials, [the terrorists] had discussions about well, is it okay to kill Muslims or not. And the leader of the group saying, "absolutely, if it's part our cause, then we can kill." How has that affected public opinion and does it affect public opinion beyond Morocco.

Cook: Well, I think, I mean if we go back to the kind of terrorist problems that Egypt or Algeria or other countries in the Middle East have experienced - starting in the late 1980s and through the 1990s - I think you had very little public tolerance for these kinds of things. I remember being in Egypt in the early 1990s, and Egyptian after Egyptian said, "we don't tolerate this type of behavior, we don't condone this type of behavior, [and] we don't want this type of behavior." In fact, there is, with regards to your question, more about the Islamic theology, whether it is appropriate or not to kill other Muslims. There is nothing really in the Koran that enjoins Muslims not to kill other Muslims. But there is a debate raging amongst imams in Saudi Arabia and Egypt about the appropriateness. Certainly there has been debate about the appropriateness of killing civilians and it seems that [for some extremists] killing American civilians under certain circumstances, and certainly killing Israelis under a wider group of circumstances, is certainly appropriate. But now the question is what are the implications for those groups that would want to take on despotic regimes? That want to express themselves politically through violence; want to engage in regime change, through these types of acts of terrorism. And I think that that is a discussion that is going on. You have fatwas, legal rulings of the Sheik of al-Azar, the most venerated Islamic institution of learning in Cairo, and the Grand Sheik of Saudi Arabia, issuing these legal rulings that are ambiguous. So, there is a question whether people like Osama bin Laden or his deputies, actually adhere to these kinds of legal decisions because they regard these legal rulings as ones that are tainted by the state. They're not Islamicly pure. So to get a long answer to your question is - it's unclear. We know that the publics in the region do not condone this kind of activity. They certainly don't want it to be happening in the streets of Marrakech or Cairo or Algeria. But you have in these terrorist organizations, people who are motivated to do, to carry out their attacks, because they see [what they believe to be] the justness of their cause. So, whereas I agree, again, that there is not a lot of tolerance for it, I'm not sure whether public opinion will necessarily dampen the ability or the willingness of some these groups to carry out terrorist attacks. I think the Moroccans may have opened themselves up for some kind of attack. That's certainly the dynamic that occurred in Egypt during the 1990s. So, I think we may be in for more, more problems in the region.

Gabriel: Yes, exactly. But, the mere fact that these guys were caught on tape, actually plotting against fellow Moroccans or Moroccan citizens, only helps the government to take bolder action, because the Moroccan people don't like that. They were very upset with this. So, you feel wide opinion now, that in fact, they weren't out to attack the "great Satan" out there; they were out to attack anyone, anywhere, in which they could make a name for themselves. So, the more they do this, the more they're hurting their own cause, thank God.

Host: Well, to what extent does Morocco's, the experience of Morocco's neighbor, Algeria, I would take it that people in Morocco have seen what happens when a country is racked by internal, relentless terrorism and that there is no taste for that in Morocco.

Gabriel: The history and the culture of these two countries are very different. They're close, they're neighbors, [and] there's some history that's similar. But really, the way in which Morocco has grown up over the centuries. You know it's ruled by a family that took over in 1640. It's one of the oldest ruling families in existence in the world today, I think after Japan. It had its own identity and its own countries, and it had its own brand of Islam, which has been a tolerant, moderate form of religion. So, it's a different set of circumstances that they're confronted with. However, they've got to be on their guard. It's everywhere - the problem is everywhere. And to say that it doesn't exist in Morocco or could not exist in Morocco is foolish, because it could happen.

Cook: Let me add something on this question of a robust anti-terrorist policy in places like Morocco or Algeria. We started out this session discussing the mobility of these activists. Now, you could see a phenomenon where you have people continuing to move around outside of Morocco, outside of Algeria. That's precisely what happened with all of these Egyptians and Saudis and Algerians who showed up in Afghanistan after the jihad against the Soviets was over. They either went back and forth between Afghanistan and their home countries, and were able to undertake terrorist attacks against the United States and their home countries. It was a spectacular bombing of the Egyptian consulate in Karachi, Pakistan a few years. This was engineered at the hands of jihadis, Egyptian jihadis, opposed to the regime of Hosni Mubarak. There's nothing to suggest that a robust terrorist policy on behalf of the Moroccans will not come back to haunt them from elements now outside of Morocco, or who will leave Morocco only to come back to hurt them -- Moroccan interests around the world or Morocco directly.

Gabriel: All the more reason, though, to praise the efforts and the courage of this government in Morocco, of this king, and for America to take seriously a long term vision and partnership with Morocco.

Host: Steven Cook, how does what Morocco has been doing, compare with other Islamic countries and other Arab countries.

Cook: Well, I think that certainly we've gotten a tremendous amount of cooperation from many countries in the Arab and Muslim world. Top of the agenda would perhaps be Turkey. Which is now leading the ISAF force in Afghanistan. Turkey, of course.

Host: The ISAF force?

Cook: The International Security Assistance Force in Afghanistan.

Host: The peacekeepers.

Cook: The peacekeepers, which are based largely in Kabul. They have about fourteen-hundred soldiers there who are leading that mission. And the Turks have been, from very early on, offered a lot of facilities [and] intelligence sharing. The same goes for Jordan, which has a contingent of mine-sweepers in Afghanistan and have offered all kinds of intelligence-sharing as well. Now, I would have to say the same thing for the Egyptians. However, for the Egyptians and the Saudis, for example, it's been a much more low profile effort. They've shared intelligence with us; they've done the things that they've been asked to do. You can expect the Egyptians will permit the United States' refueling rights and transit rights. After all, we give them about two-point-two billion dollars in aid a year, every year. So, there have been tremendous kinds of intelligence sharing. You had arrests in Saudi Arabia of al-Qaida activists. The question on Saudi Arabia is "what took them so long?" These people [were] known to have been there. It wasn't until, I believe, they presented an actual threat to the Saudis, that the Saudis had gotten underway in really putting the screws to these people. But, overall, I think that you have some good cooperation in a number of areas. But in others we would have liked a bit more public support from our key Arab allies, being the Egyptians and the Saudis.

Host: Ed Gabriel, we talked a bit about the risk that Morocco has taken by this aggressive stand. One of the things since the [September 11th] attacks, Morocco, which has had a robust tourist industry, it's obviously suffering there. There have been newspaper accounts that if there was a hesitation about going public about the arrest of al-Qaida operatives in Morocco, perhaps one of the things that would make them hesitate to say that publicly would be just not wanting to get the word out to possible tourists that there are al-Qaida people in Morocco. That this is only going to further hurt the tourist industry. How does Morocco balance the effort against terrorism, or at least in its efforts against terrorism, and also try to protect its domestic economy?

Gabriel: My guess on this, Eric, is that Morocco has made the decision that it can't go halfway on these issues, that if it's going to put its feet in the water and be supportive of America and this terrorism thing, they have to go the whole way. And they know there are consequences with it, and they have to prepare for those consequences as well. So, it's going to really take a strong bilateral cooperation in relations that goes beyond terrorism. Terrorism is of great interest to America and of interest to Morocco. But there are other things that are interesting to both of them -- cultural bridging, better understanding between Arabs and Islam, and the people of America, economic reforms, [and] democratic liberalization. These are things where we share common agendas with countries like Morocco. And quite frankly, that's what its going to take, long term, to get over their problems. And that's the risk they take, because they think they have a good partner in America.

Host: Well, I'm afraid we don't have any time left to keep talking about it, even though there's a lot more we can get to. I'd like to thank my guests, Ed Gabriel of the Center for Strategic and International Studies, and Steven Cook of the Brookings Institution. For On the Line, I'm Eric Felten.