Military

DATE=4/2/02

TYPE=INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT

TITLE=ZUNES / MIDDLE EAST

NUMBER=3-114

BYLINE=TOM CROSBY

DATELINE=WASHINGTON

INTERNET=

///// ED'S: AVAILABLE IN DALET UNDER SOD/ENGLISH NEWS NOW INTERVIEWS IN THE FOLDER FOR TODAY OR YESTERDAY /////

HOST: Palestinian officials say Israeli forces are trying to storm Palestinian security headquarters in Ramallah in their search for Palestinian militants. Israeli officials say Palestinians wanted for masterminding attacks against Israel are in the building. This comes following a day in which a car bomb exploded in Jerusalem killing the driver and a policeman. Meanwhile, Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat remains trapped in his Ramallah headquarters, surrounded by Israeli forces.

Stephen Zunes is the Middle East editor of Foreign Policy in Focus and an Associate Professor of Politics at the University of San Francisco. He tells VOA News Now's Tom Crosby the events of the past few hours and days are the opposite of what was intended by an earlier peace effort

MR. ZUNES: What we are seeing is the opposite of what the Oslo process intended to bring forth -- that Israeli concessions would lead to less Palestinian violence, it would give the Israelis confidence for more concessions, which would ease Palestinian anger and frustration, leading to less violence, and there would be a positive feedback loop, if you will.

Instead, we have seen the opposite. The ongoing Israeli repression and colonization has led to greater violence, which has led to still greater Israeli repression and occupation, creating still more violence and, indeed, a negative feedback loop -- the cycle of violence really spinning out of control, both the heinous attacks against Israeli civilians inside Israel as well as the mass detentions, ex-judicial killings, torture, reoccupation, and other human rights violations by Israeli forces in the Occupied Territories. And at this point it seems there are very little options for breaking out of the cycle, particularly since Yasser Arafat, even if he was so inclined, could not really halt the violence since he is pretty much held to those three rooms in his compound and his police stations and military areas are under Israeli attack and his towns are under siege.

MR. CROSBY: Is it possible, though, that Yasser Arafat may not be able to halt the violence?

MR. ZUNES: That, indeed, is part of the problem. I think those who say he is behind every attack are wrong. They are using that for their own political purposes. But certainly those who say he is doing his best to stop it I think are similarly incorrect. The truth is somewhere in between regarding his motivation. But in terms of his actual ability at this point, given that he is under siege, given that the Palestinian Authority has, for all intents and purposes, ceased to function, at this moment there is very little, it appears, that Yasser Arafat could actually do.

MR. CROSBY: Let us talk about Ariel Sharon for a moment. In this country, we like to talk about the endgame, that being the ultimate goal of individual. Is Ariel Sharon's endgame to neutralize and get Yasser Arafat out of the picture, or is it something more?

MR. ZUNES: It is something more than that. And the very fact that Yasser Arafat is hardly a sympathetic character, even among people who are generally sympathetic with the plight of the Palestinians, makes it very tempting to make Arafat the issue -- not the occupation. And so isolating Arafat, making him the issue, has in many ways diverted the world's attention.

The unfortunate reality is that Ariel Sharon has never supported a single peace agreement or disengagement agreement by any Israeli Government with any Arab party. There is little question, in my mind anyway, that he really even wants the peace process to go forward. So, certainly, saying we will not negotiate the substantive issues until the violence stops is essentially giving an invitation to Palestinian radicals, who do not want the peace process to go forward at all, to commit acts of violence.

In many ways, it is almost as if the extremists on both sides, Ariel Sharon in the case of Israel, Hamas and some of the more militant Fatah factions on the other, are using each other as an excuse to play their ultimately self-defeating game, which is to attempt to militarily defeat the other. But that is not going to happen. Because, ultimately, Israeli security and Palestinian rights are not mutually exclusive, but in fact mutually dependent on the other.

MR. CROSBY: But if it is a self-defeating game that they are playing, what then should the United States be doing in this game at this point?

MR. ZUNES: I think the United States should continue to be really firm on Arafat in terms of whatever is within his capabilities to stop, to make clear that attacks against Israeli civilians are an illegitimate strategy for resistance, and that repression and occupation can never justify terrorism. At the same time, we need to make clear to Israel that terrorism is not an excuse for repression and occupation, that Israel in fact would be far more secure within its internationally recognized borders than to defend a patchwork of illegal settlements and isolated military outposts amidst a hostile population.

HOST: Stephen Zunes (zoo-ness), the Middle East editor of Foreign Policy in Focus and an Associate Professor of Politics at the University of San Francisco. He was speaking with News Now's Tom Crosby.

NEB/TC/RAE