22 March 2002
Wolfowitz Says Killing Americans Still Al-Qaida Goal
(Deputy defense secretary interviewed March 21 on CNN) (3580)
Al-Qaida and Taliban fighters remaining in Afghanistan are regrouping
to fight U.S. troops again, Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz
said March 21.
Interviewed by Wolf Blitzer on CNN, Wolfowitz said U.S. troops in
Afghanistan remain "definitely targeted" by terrorists remaining
there.
"And that's why you can't sit on your hands in this kind of
operation," Wolfowitz continued. In spite of their losses, "If you
give them time to organize, they remain weaker, but still an
organization with the same objective, which is to kill Americans, and
they're working on that in 60 countries in the world, including
Afghanistan," he said.
Asked whether U.S. forces might soon cross over into Pakistan in
pursuit of terrorists fleeing Afghanistan, Wolfowitz replied, "In some
limited circumstances, it's a possibility. I don't see that being
anything large-scale." He added that the United States and Pakistan
are "well coordinated along the border."
Wolfowitz also emphasized that Pakistan "has really stepped up to the
bar in this marvelously. We have had very close cooperation with
Pakistan. ... They have been doing most of the work on their side of
the border for months now," he said.
Turning to Iraq, Wolfowitz said "[T]here are many options" for dealing
with Saddam Hussein "and all of them are on the table." He noted that
any U.N. weapons inspection teams "would be severely challenged. I
mean, he's had three years, or some people would say four or five
years, to hide everything. ... So it would have to be a very forceful
inspection system to work."
Support for the Iraqi opposition to Saddam Hussein's regime is another
option, Wolfowitz noted.
President Bush "has really gotten the world's attention, and I think
he's made it clear ... we just cannot continue living with this threat
hanging over our head for years and years," he said.
As for the continuing problems between Israelis and Palestinians, and
the reported unwillingness of some regional governments to consider
action against Iraq until a Mideast peace settlement is reached,
Wolfowitz said he believes that progress on either issue would
facilitate solving the other problem.
"But we can't wait to deal with one until we have dealt with the
other. We have got to do what we can on both," he said.
Wolfowitz also discussed new Pentagon procedures for trying suspected
terrorists by special military commissions.
Following is the transcript of the interview:
(begin transcript)
Department of Defense
Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz
March 21, 2002
(Interview with Mr. Wolf Blitzer, CNN TV)
BLITZER: Will the detainees from Afghanistan get fair trials? Will the
United States take its war against terrorism to Iraq? A short while
ago, I was joined here in the CNN War Room by the number two man at
the Pentagon, the deputy Defense Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz.
Secretary Wolfowitz, thanks very much for joining us. Let's talk a
little bit about the news of the day. These military commissions, as
you call them, the military tribunals that have been set up for a
selected number of al Qaeda and Taliban fighters. How many do you
expect will be tried before these military tribunals?
WOLFOWITZ: We really have no idea. It's a very deliberative process
that we're going through. I think the president on November 3 directed
Secretary Rumsfeld to set up these commissions so that we would have
an instrument for trying terrorists and we have now taken nearly four
months. We've come out with the basic rules by which they would
operate and we have spent a lot of time trying to make sure that on
the one hand, they would meet standards of fairness, because that's
the American way to give people a fair trial. At the same time, we're
in unusual circumstances of this war on terrorism. We have classified
information we have to be able to deal with. We have information that
may be collected on the battlefield. So, the normal legal process
really is inadequate for some of the people we may have to try, but
it's much too early to say who they will be.
BLITZER: You'll reserve these commissions only for high-ranking al
Qaeda, Taliban detainees?
WOLFOWITZ: No. It's the president who will ultimately decide who goes
to trial before one of these commissions. The only thing that I can
tell you for sure is no U.S. citizens will go before these
commissions. And I think it will be quite, probably a while still,
before we have enough information about any of the people that we have
detained to really know what they're guilty of. This is a very slow
process -- getting information on these people.
BLITZER: And it's still possible no one will come before any of these
commissions?
WOLFOWITZ: I suppose theoretically yes, although we've got that
instrument definitely available to use.
BLITZER: A lot of critics are suggesting that the deck is really
stacked against these detainees, if they should come before these
military tribunals. The prosecutors will be U.S. military officers.
The defense attorneys will be U.S. military officers. The judges will
be U.S. military officers. And the president of the United States will
be the ultimate appeal process, and he's already said that those
detainees at Guantanamo Bay are killers.
WOLFOWITZ: Well, for one thing, some of those things are not even
true. The defense, if they want to -- the defendant, if he wants to,
can hire a civilian attorney, as well as a military attorney. I think
we have seen in our own military court system that military judges are
perfectly capable of dealing fairly and that's actually been the
history in previous military commissions. We have had these before in
history, and I think they can handle things fairly. We've been very
careful that the defendant has the presumption of innocence. It has to
be a proof beyond a reasonable doubt. It has to be a two-thirds
majority of people voting for a conviction. There's an automatic
appeal. I think if people will not deal with the theories they
developed when this was first announced four months ago and look at
the rules that are actually published today, I think they will see
that this is a fair procedure.
BLITZER: The major difference between a civilian procedure is that
hearsay evidence will be allowed to be submitted into that court.
WOLFOWITZ: It won't automatically be ruled out. It's going to be up to
the judges. Remember, it has got to be proof beyond a reasonable
doubt. But we are going to be dealing with people about whom some of
the evidence was picked up on a battlefield. We don't have the kinds
of chain of evidence that you would have in a normal civilian
proceeding. We don't have the ability to necessarily bring in the
original sources of evidence.
It is important, let's be clear -- there are two objectives we're
trying to achieve here. One is a fair trial, and I think we will
achieve that with these rules. The other is to protect the American
people and to make sure that people who are guilty of some pretty
terrible crimes are, in fact, convicted.
BLITZER: If someone comes before that military commission and is not
convicted, will he or she be allowed to leave?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, if they're acquitted, the prosecution has no ability
to appeal an instant verdict.
BLITZER: That person will walk free?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, there are two -- the people we have in Guantanamo,
remember, are not there because they are necessarily going to go
before a trial at any point. They are there because they are enemy
combatants seized in wartime. And, in fact, they are probably -- I
don't know the exact legal terminology, but I think of them as
unlawful combatants. They may or may not be guilty of a specific
crime, but they're definitely enemy and we will be treating them as
enemy, and probably until the end of the war.
BLITZER: We have an e-mail question from Kevin in Ontario, Canada, who
writes: "Terrorism is an international problem. Wouldn't justice be
better served in an international court?"
WOLFOWITZ: I would suggest Kevin go up to New York and stand on the
site of the World Trade Center. Three thousand Americans -- well, not
only Americans, but 3,000 people were killed on our territory; 150
people were killed where I work at the Pentagon. I don't know how many
widows and orphans. I think the American people are entitled to see
that justice is done by American rules and I think the world will see
that American rules are fair rules.
BLITZER: And just to wrap up this whole issue, those other detainees
who are deemed not going to be going before these military
commissions, what happens to them? There are hundreds at Guantanamo
Bay.
WOLFOWITZ: We're still in the process of sorting them out. There are
hundreds that we didn't even -- that the Afghans took and we said
these are really foot soldiers. Do what -- basically we hoped they
released them or sent them back home to Pakistan.
Among the people in Guantanamo Bay are probably people who are bad
actors, but may not be guilty of a specific crime. We may want to hold
them at least until we think there's no longer a danger of their going
back and joining al Qaeda. There will be some that probably are --
before long -- can be sent back to the countries they came from and
those countries may try them under their own legal systems.
You know, to get a perspective on this, the man who came in, the
millennium bomber who was planning to blow up the Los Angeles Airport
was held in detention in Seattle for a year, saying nothing. And then
after a year, he finally decided to tell us everything and reveal his
whole plot. It takes time to develop the information we need about
these people.
BLITZER: So, you are hoping that will happen among those hundreds of
detainees at the U.S. Naval base at Guantanamo?
WOLFOWITZ: And I think we're, slowly we're getting information, but it
is a slow process.
BLITZER: You're getting useful information?
WOLFOWITZ: Some useful information and a lot of misleading
information, as you might imagine.
BLITZER: And do you expect that camp to grow significantly in the
terms of the numbers? Supposedly, they're gearing up for perhaps a few
thousand.
WOLFOWITZ: We're trying to keep the numbers -- it's a big burden on
people down there. We're not -- we're trying to manage the numbers.
That's one of the reasons, too, that, where it's appropriate, to send
people back to other countries for trial. We'd like to do that. And I
can't predict on the numbers. We have about 300 in Guantanamo. We have
almost another 300 in Afghanistan. But I can't predict the future.
BLITZER: All right. Let's talk about the war in Afghanistan right now.
The chairman of the Senate intelligence committee, Bob Graham, said to
me the other day that based on his briefings, that this war looks like
it's going to be moving now from the mountains, from the rural areas,
increasingly to some of the urban areas, including cities like Kabul.
WOLFOWITZ: I guess that's a feel he has. I have a feeling that
there're a lot of people holed up in the mountains. Remember, we're
talking about a huge country. It's the size of the state of Texas and
that doesn't do it justice because the terrain is much more
formidable. The terrain is like the Rocky Mountains.
BLITZER: So do you have enough troops, U.S. troops in the country at
this point, or will you be sending more in?
WOLFOWITZ: I think our biggest gap is intelligence. When we get
intelligence, I think we have the people that will pursue it, but it's
a constant search for intelligence. And there will -- Senator Graham
is right. These people are trying to figure out, having been blocked
in the routes they were using before; they're trying to figure out new
routes. We have had a few, I would say so far minor, incidents in
Kabul. But they obviously -- they've declared very clearly their
desire to kill foreigners, and especially Americans and they will be
working on us anywhere we are present.
BLITZER: So, U.S. troops, you would say at this point, are still very
much in danger?
WOLFOWITZ: It's one -- well, I think the U.S. troops take good
security precautions to deal with that danger, but they're definitely
targeted.
BLITZER: The al Qaeda and Taliban fighters who are still out there
supposedly, if you listen to the testimony of George Tenet, the CIA
director, the other day, they're regrouping and they're positioning
themselves to take action in Afghanistan again, against U.S. troops.
WOLFOWITZ: I think that's exactly their objective. And that's why you
can't sit on your hands in this kind of operation. There's no question
that our successes in the first months of this conflict have disrupted
them, have broken up their plans and made them have to move. And every
time they move, I'm sure that they have to reorganize. But if you give
them time to organize, they remain weaker, but still an organization
with the same objective, which is to kill Americans and they're
working on that in 60 countries in the world, including Afghanistan.
BLITZER: And is it your working assumption, because you obviously
don't know, at least based on what you have said publicly, that Osama
bin Laden and his key lieutenants are still hiding someplace in
Afghanistan?
WOLFOWITZ: We are certainly looking for them very hard there, but I'm
hesitant about working assumptions. We go on the evidence that we get.
We have had very little evidence for a while now about where he is, or
I suppose even that he's alive. Although, I know the general belief is
that he's probably still alive, it's not based on much hard evidence.
BLITZER: You are not ruling the possibility that he could be dead?
WOLFOWITZ: I think that's a possibility, too. You know, something that
I think the people don't understand enough, we have incredible
intelligence capabilities and it's marvelous in the way that we can
focus on one spot in Afghanistan from halfway around the world and see
what people are doing is incredible. It leaves the impression that we
know everything that's going on, and that's the wrong impression. I
would say more than half of what these people do, they're able to hide
from us. And that's a good thing to keep in mind. It's part of the
reason why we have got to keep the pressure on.
BLITZER: You still have the headline in the "New York Times" on the
front page today, "U.S. Might Pursue al Qaeda and Taliban to Pakistan
Lairs. Spring Offensive Feared. American General Says Move Would Be
Last Resort to Protect Afghan Gains." Will you send, will the U.S.
send its military forces directly across the border from Afghanistan
into Pakistan to chase al Qaeda, Taliban fighters if necessary?
WOLFOWITZ: It's important to emphasize Pakistan has really stepped up
to the bar in this marvelously. We have had very close cooperation
with Pakistan. Anything we do on Pakistani territory is something
we're going to coordinate very closely with President Musharraf and
with the Pakistanis and they have extraordinary capabilities. They
have been doing most of the work on their side of the border for
months now; so I wouldn't exaggerate that report.
BLITZER: So, what's the bottom line, though? Will you -- will U.S.
troops cross the border into Pakistan?
WOLFOWITZ: In some limited circumstances, that's a possibility. I
don't see that being anything large scale.
BLITZER: And you have the blessings, the authorization from the
Pakistani government, if necessary?
WOLFOWITZ: We're well coordinated along the border with the
Pakistanis.
BLITZER: Secretary Wolfowitz, we have to take a quick break. We have a
lot more to talk about. When we come back, I'll ask the deputy
secretary of defense about Iraq. Is the U.S. preparing to strike at
Saddam Hussein? Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Welcome back. We're continuing our conversation with the
number two man at the Pentagon, the deputy secretary of Defense, Paul
Wolfowitz. Mr. Secretary, Iraq: The president and the vice president
today were both very outspoken, without mentioning Saddam Hussein by
name, in making the statement that the U.S. has to do something about
the potential of Saddam Hussein's using weapons of mass destruction
against his neighbors or others. How close is the Bush administration
to taking action against Iraq?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, we take action every day. I think you're meaning
taking military action. The decision to use military force is a
decision that only the president can make and only the president could
tell you the answer to, if he were even to predict.
What the president has said, he said it clearly in the State of the
Union message, he and the vice president have said it again today, we
have a very serious problem when you have a government that supports
terrorists, develops weapons of mass destruction, has declared open
hostility to the United States. And I think what the president has
made clear is we have to find a solution to that. I don't think he has
said what that solution will be, but waiting forever is not a
solution.
BLITZER: Is there any evidence at all directly linking Iraq to the
September 11 strikes?
WOLFOWITZ: That's not really the point. I think what the president --
you know, if we didn't have any evidence before September 11 that
somebody was about to blow up the World Trade Center -- I think what
the president has said, we can't wait until we have evidence that
somebody is using weapons of mass destruction against the United
States, before we do something to prevent it. And that's what he's
focused on; that's what his State of the Union message, I think, said
so clearly.
And I think the world is starting to understand that that's what he's
talking about. And he hasn't come to a conclusion about how to deal
with that. I mean, one has to be skeptical about the prospects of
diplomacy alone working with a man like Saddam Hussein. But there are
many options and all of them are on the table.
BLITZER: One of the options is the resumption of U.N. weapons
inspection teams going back into Iraq. That seems to be the preferred
course at least in the public statements that were made during the
vice president's trip to the Middle East from Arab allies in that part
of the world. Do you have confidence that those inspection teams can
find everything that Saddam Hussein may be engaged in, as far as
weapons of mass destruction?
WOLFOWITZ: Well, I think we've also said they would be severely
challenged. I mean, he's had three years or some people would say four
or five years to hide everything. The inspectors were getting as far
as they were before partly because his son-in-law defected and gave us
a treasure trove of information. So, it would have to be a very, very
forceful inspection system to work. But as I say, all the options are
on the table. I don't think that the president has ruled anything out.
BLITZER: You have heard what Senator Fred Thompson of Tennessee has
said, that those inspection teams would be counter-productive if they
went back in because he could hide stuff and he could keep them on a
run-around for a few years, and in the mean time develop his
biological, chemical, perhaps even nuclear capabilities.
WOLFOWITZ: Look, there are a lot of different ways of going at this.
Inspections are part of it; support for the opposition is another part
of it. The president has really gotten the world's attention, and I
think he's made it clear there has got -- we just can not continue
living with this threat over our head for years and years.
BLITZER: So how much time is there left before the president will have
to make a decision?
WOLFOWITZ: I know you want me to predict it, but I can't, Wolf.
BLITZER: Is it weeks, months, years?
WOLFOWITZ: I just can't predict it.
BLITZER: But you obviously, this is not a secret, the military does
have contingency plans at work.
WOLFOWITZ: We have to, of course we do.
BLITZER: Before I let you go, on this Iraqi issue, is the
Israeli-Palestinian crisis a stumbling block in preventing the U.S.
from taking action?
WOLFOWITZ: I think we have two problems, and we have to work on both
of them at the same time. We have got the threat from Saddam Hussein
and his weapons of mass destruction. We have got a terrible tragedy
taking place between Israel and the Palestinians. And there are some
connections between both of those, and I do believe that progress on
each one would facilitate the other problem. But we can't wait to deal
with one until we have dealt with the other. We have got to do what we
can on both.
BLITZER: Mr. Secretary, thanks for joining us.
WOLFOWITZ: Good to be here. Thank you.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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