17 February 2002
Transcript: Powell Rejects Charges of U.S. Unilateralism
(Secretary interviewed February 17 on CNN) (4060)
Secretary of State Colin Powell rejected charges that the Bush
administration is acting unilateraly in pursuit of its foreign policy,
particularly in its policies on Iran, Iraq and North Korea -- the
countries characterized by President Bush in his January State of the
Union address as an "axis of evil."
Interviewed from Tokyo, the first stop on President Bush's trip to
Asia, on CNN's "Late Edition" February 17, Powell responded to
complaints of U.S. unilateralism from European officials. "What
unilateral action have we taken that is causing them to get so upset?"
Powell asked. "The President made a statement in his speech, a clear
statement identifying nations that deserve to be labeled as evil
because of the nature of their regimes, and now we are in discussion
with our allies. So what unilateral action have we taken that has them
all so shocked?"
Powell said the administration is examining all its options with
regard to these three countries, and will do so in consultations with
U.S. allies. "[A]s we go forward, as we discuss these matters with
them, I hope we will see some of this excitement calm down a bit," he
said.
Powell described the U.S. relationship with China, which he and the
president are scheduled to visit February 21-22, as "complex."
President Bush's position toward China is clear, he said: "Let's
cooperate in areas where we can cooperate; where there are
differences, let's talk about them; and when there are serious
differences, where we have a fundamental disagreement, we will let you
know the nature of that fundamental disagreement and see if we can do
something about that."
While the United States has a growing trading relationship with China,
"we are concerned about religious freedom in China, and the president
will be discussing this with President Jiang Zemin," Powell said. "We
are concerned about individual rights. We are concerned about
proliferation of weapons. We will discuss all of these items with the
Chinese, but we will do it straight up, eyeball-to-eyeball, and at the
same time, we will work on those areas where there is good cooperation
with respect to economic activity and trade relations."
Powell said the United States is open to dialogue with North Korea,
and supports South Korean efforts to reach out to engage the North
Koreans, but the administration "will not look away from the nature of
that regime. ... They are still developing weapons that they plan to
sell to other irresponsible nations, and I think we have to call them
to account. They are a despotic regime. And that is not just my
opinion; it's an absolute statement of fact. Anybody can see it," he
said.
On the Middle East, asked why the United States has not sent special
envoy Anthony Zinni back to the region to help move the Israelis and
the Palestinians towards peace, Powell said Zinni is ready to go back
when circumstances warrant. "I have given a set of conditions to the
Palestinian side, things that we need to see movement on, or there is
no point right now in sending General Zinni back," he said. "We need
to see people arrested. We need to see more done with respect to
reducing the violence. And when the violence goes down, I think we
will have a situation where General Zinni can go back in, use that
quieter period to put in place a security arrangement that will keep
it quiet, get us into the Tenet work plan, get us into the Mitchell
peace plan, and move forward."
Following is a transcript of the CNN interview:
(begin transcript)
Interview on CNN's "Late Edition"
Secretary Colin L. Powell
Tokyo, Japan
February 17, 2002
MR. BLITZER: A short while ago, I spoke with the U.S. Secretary of
State Colin Powell, who is traveling with the President in Tokyo. Mr.
Secretary, thanks so much for joining us. And I want to get to the
President's trip to Asia in just a moment, but first a few questions
about the war in Afghanistan. There is a lot of turmoil going on in
Afghanistan right now, an assassination, according to the Interim
leader Hamid Karzai of a cabinet minister.
Is the United States going to get involved and try to help quiet the
situation?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we are going to do everything we can, Wolf. As
you know, embassy people were out at the airport assisting with those
pilgrims that are trying to get to Mecca, and we really regret the
loss of the minister. I don't know if he was killed by the mob or, as
Chairman Karzai suggested, he might have been assassinated. But I
think this is something that the Interim Authority can handle with the
international security force people -- the international security
assistance force people who are there. I don't see a need for
additional U.S. troops, if that was the suggestion of your question.
MR. BLITZER: Well, he is also suggesting that the Saudi Government
extradite some individuals, some government officials, Afghan
officials who may have fled to Saudi Arabia. Would the U.S. encourage
the Saudis to do that?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, certainly if there are people who have gotten
to Saudi Arabia that Chairman Karzai would like to have back in
custody, and he has a basis for having them back in custody, I hope
the Saudis would reciprocate.
MR. BLITZER: As far as you know right now, is Usama bin Laden still
alive?
SECRETARY POWELL: I have no idea, Wolf. I don't know if Usama bin
Laden is alive or dead, and, if he's alive, where he might be. I do
not know.
MR. BLITZER: How worried are you, though, about that simple fact that
the United States Government, with its vast intelligence resources,
simply doesn't know the whereabouts, or even if Usama bin Laden is
alive?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, it is not that hard to imagine. It is not hard
to have one individual hide like that. But when you're hiding like
that and when you're on the run, you are not as effective as you were
a few months earlier when you had a network, where you were calling
people, where you had people coming to see you, and where you were
controlling an organization.
Right now, he is a fugitive on the run, if he is alive, and he knows
darn well that if he tries to exercise in any active way any
authorities that he still thinks he has remaining, he would put
himself at even greater risk. So he's on the run, and in due course he
will be found and he will be brought to justice, or justice brought to
him.
MR. BLITZER: You testified earlier this week before the Senate, and
you spoke about the situation as far as Iraq is concerned. I want you
to listen to a brief excerpt of what you had to say: "With respect to
Iraq, it's long been, for several years now, a policy of the United
States Government that regime change would be in the best interest of
the region, the best interest of the Iraqi people. And we are looking
at a variety of options that would bring that about."
Mr. Secretary, is one of those options a full-scale military strike
against Iraq?
SECRETARY POWELL: There are lots of options, and I don't want to get
into individual options. Of course, there are military options, there
are diplomatic and political options, and there are combinations of
these options. But I don't want to single out specific ones such as a
full-scale Desert Storm type attack. The President is not in receipt
of any recommendation from his advisors at this time, but all options
are on the table.
We are working also aggressively within the UN to improve the
sanctions regime. As the President has said, let the inspectors in.
They are tied to the sanctions regime. That's why the sanctions are
there.
And the Iraqis are going around trying to get support around the
world. And the easiest way for them to get the support they need and
see if there's a way out of this mess is to let the inspectors in to
see whether or not they are developing weapons of mass destruction.
Even then, though, the United States believes, the Iraqi people would
still be better off with a new kind of leadership that is not trying
to hide this sort of development activity on weapons of mass
destruction and is not of the despotic nature that the Saddam Hussein
regime is.
MR. BLITZER: As you know, the comments of the President in his State
of the Union Address branding Iraq, Iran, North Korea as an "axis of
evil" has generated a lot of concern, especially among the European
allies. In fact, The New York Times foreign affairs columnist Tom
Friedman wrote this on Wednesday. He said, "President Bush thinks the
axis of evil is Iran, Iraq and North Korea, and the Europeans think
it's Donald Rumsfeld, Dick Cheney and Condi Rice."
How concerned are you about the angry European reaction?
SECRETARY POWELL: There has been some angry European reaction, as you
call it, but there has also been, I think, some clear-headed reality
within Europe at the same time that it is hard not to look at a regime
such as Iraq, which is developing these kinds of weapons, and is
ignoring the international community.
All my European friends should be that outraged that this regime is
ignoring, for ten years now, the international community's direction
to it.
I think my European colleagues who are doing business with Iran should
also be concerned over the fact that Iran is developing nuclear
weapons and the means by which those weapons can be delivered. So that
should be of great concern to them as well.
And so there is a bit of a stir in Europe, but it is stir I think we
will be able to manage with consultations, with contacts of the kind I
have almost every day with my European colleagues. And we will find a
way to move forward that will gather the support we need.
What the President has said is: I'm calling it the way it is. He did
it in a very straightforward, direct, realistic way that tends to
jangle people's nerves; but once they settle down and understand that
he is going to go about this in a prudent, disciplined, determined
way, they realize that is what leadership is about and they begin to
understand why it might make sense for them to join in whatever
efforts we may be getting ready to undertake.
MR. BLITZER: Some of the European leaders are not happy with what they
see as a go-it-alone, unilateral U.S. approach. Joschka Fischer, the
Foreign Minister of Germany, said this. He said, "An alliance
partnership among free democrats can't be reduced to submission.
Alliance partners are not satellites. All European foreign ministers
see it that way. That is why the phrase 'axis of evil' leads nowhere."
And Chris Patten, the European Union's Commissioner for External
Affairs, a friend of yours, said on Thursday, "My answer is not that
the unilaterist urge is wicked, but that it is ultimately ineffective
and self-defeating."
Those are pretty strong words from allies of the United States.
SECRETARY POWELL: Strong words. Joschka and I have talked a couple of
times this week, and I have the greatest respect for Chris Patten and
the others who have spoken out, and my other colleague in Paris,
Hubert Vedrine, the Foreign Minister of France. But I think we need to
just slow down a little bit. What unilateral action have we taken that
is causing them to get so upset? The President made a statement in his
speech, a clear statement identifying nations that deserve to be
labeled as evil because of the nature of their regimes, and now we are
in discussion with our allies. So what unilateral action have we taken
that has them all so shocked?
We are in the process of examining all our options -- within the UN,
within the context of the conversations that the President has with
heads of state and government on a regular basis, within the context
of all the consultations that I have with Hubert Vedrine, with Joschka
Fischer. And in due course I will have a chance to talk to Chris
Patten and Javier Solana of the European Union. So we are in touch
with them; it is just that they get a little upset when the President
speaks with such clarity and such direction. But that is what
leadership is about. I am sure as we go forward, as we discuss these
matters with them, I hope we will see some of this excitement calm
down a bit.
Our policy with respect to North Korea remains one of hoping they will
engage. We haven't taken that off the table. We have asked North
Korea, "Come, let's talk -- any time, any place, without any
preconditions. We're waiting." Does that mean we can't identify the
nature of that regime for what it is -- evil? It is evil. Not the
people of North Korea, but the regime itself and the way it has
conducted its business for the last 50 years.
Because we are waiting for the inspectors to get into Iraq, we should
ignore the nature of that regime? My European colleagues should be
pounding on Iraq as quickly as they pound on us when the President
makes a strong, principled speech.
With respect to Iran, some good things have been happening there, but
some not so good things have been happening. And so I think the
President's characterization was an accurate one, and perhaps some of
the condemnatory language we have been hearing should be directed
toward these nations, as opposed to the President's very powerful and
clear and honest statement.
MR. BLITZER: One other point about Iraq before we move on. Ken
Adeleman, a former Pentagon official in the Reagan Administration,
wrote in The Washington Post this weekend his assessment, insisting
that a U.S. military invasion, a strike against Iraq, would be
relatively simple. He said, "I believe demolishing Saddam Hussein's
military power and liberating Iraq would be a cakewalk. Let me give
simple, responsible reasons: (1) it was a cakewalk last time; (2)
they've become much weaker; (3) we've become much stronger; and (4)
now we're playing for keeps."
Do you agree with Ken Adeleman's assessment?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, I'm a great admirer of Ken Adeleman, and we
were brothers-in-arms, so to speak, in the Reagan years. But I think I
will let the United States military leadership determine what kind of
an operation it would be and let them, rather than journalists and
pundits, determine what will be a cakewalk or not a cakewalk.
MR. BLITZER: As far as the President's upcoming trip to China is
concerned, it is obviously very, very important. But I want to remind
our viewers around the world what the President said as a candidate in
1999 about the U.S.-China relationship. Listen to this clip: "China is
a competitor, not a strategic partner. We must deal with China without
ill will, but without illusions."
Is that statement still applicable today?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think it fits the circumstances. We are not using
either "competitor" or "strategic partner." I think we have to not try
to capture this very complex relationship with a single sound bite.
The President's position toward China is very clear: Let's cooperate
in areas where we can cooperate; where there are differences, let's
talk about them; and when there are serious differences, where we have
a fundamental disagreement, we will let you know the nature of that
fundamental disagreement and see if we can do something about that.
And I think that our relationship with China has been improving
steadily ever since the President took office. Everybody thought it
was going to be a major crisis when we had the incident with the
reconnaissance plane that was run into by the Chinese fighter plane.
But we came through that because both countries realized we have
bigger equities to work with.
China is now a member of the World Trading Organization. We have a
growing trading relationship with China. We are concerned about
religious freedom in China, and the President will be discussing this
with President Jiang Zemin. We are concerned about individual rights.
We are concerned about proliferation of weapons. We will discuss all
of these items with the Chinese, but we will do it straight up,
eyeball-to-eyeball, and at the same time, we will work on those areas
where there is good cooperation with respect to economic activity and
trade relations, although there is more that we need to do with trade
relations as well, especially in the field of agriculture.
So it is a complex relationship and we no longer try to reduce it to a
simple sound bite because it doesn't do justice to the complexity of
the relationship and, frankly, the way in which the relationship is
moving forward in such a positive direction.
MR. BLITZER: And just to nail down the situation with North Korea,
despite North Korea's being a member of what the President calls the
"axis of evil," the United States is still prepared to have a dialogue
with North Korea in coordination with South Korea's so-called sunshine
policy, right?
SECRETARY POWELL: The President has said repeatedly, before his State
of the Union Address and since his State of the Union Address, that we
do want to have a dialogue with Korea. We support what the South
Koreans have been doing. They have been reaching out. They have been
trying to engage the North Koreans.
We also will keep within the Framework Agreement that we signed with
the North Koreans in 1994, providing them with energy sources in the
future. We provide humanitarian aid in the form of food to the North
Koreans, and we note that the North Koreans are staying within the
missile terrorist moratorium that they said they would stay in a few
years ago.
So there are things to work with here. But at the same time, the
President will not look away from the nature of that regime and just
compliment them on these other somewhat positive elements in the
relationship with respect to the Framework Agreement of 1994 and the
moratorium. They are still developing weapons that they plan to sell
to other irresponsible nations, and I think we have to call them to
account. They are a despotic regime. And that is not just my opinion;
it's an absolute statement of fact. Anybody can see it. So we are
inviting it to come out, to end its isolation, and to find a way to
engage with the South, to engage with us, to engage with other
nations, and start to build a better life for the Korean people.
That's all the President wants. He wants a better life for the people
of North Korea. He would like them to start to enjoy the fruits of
their labor the way the people of South Korea have. And that is going
to be the positive message he will deliver in South Korea next week.
MR. BLITZER: Mr. Secretary, while I you, on the situation between the
Israelis and the Palestinians is deteriorating, seemingly on a daily
basis. Whatever happened to General Zinni, Anthony Zinni, your special
Middle East envoy, staying in the region until there's a cease-fire,
until there's an end to this violence?
SECRETARY POWELL: General Zinni is there to help put in place a
security arrangement where both sides will do everything they can to
bring a cease-fire into being. We sent him in twice, we brought him
out. He is available. He is ready to go back in when circumstances
warrant..
I have given a set of conditions to the Palestinian side, things that
we need to see movement on, or there is no point right now in sending
General Zinni back. We need to see people arrested. We need to see
more done with respect to reducing the violence. And when the violence
goes down, I think we will have a situation where General Zinni can go
back in, use that quieter period to put in place a security
arrangement that will keep it quiet, get us into the Tenet work plan,
get us into the Mitchell peace plan, and move forward.
The situation right now is not good, just as you say, Wolf. It's
unstable. And we have a car bomb, and then that's responded to with a
strike by the Israelis, and that's responded to with another bombing
of some kind or another, and we get nowhere. Neither side will prevail
in this test of arms. And the sooner we can get quiet and a
cease-fire, the sooner we can be on our way to negotiations which will
provide a solution under the terms of UN Resolutions 242 and 338.
MR. BLITZER: Finally, Mr. Secretary, the comments you made on that MTV
interview about condom use generated some concern among conservatives
here in the United States, although your views were endorsed by the
White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer speaking on behalf of the
President.
Any second thoughts, though, about how phrased your comments, given
the concern, if not outrage, some conservatives have expressed here?
SECRETARY POWELL: Absolutely not. I was talking to a worldwide
audience of 17 to 25 year-olds. I was on 33 MTV channels talking to
375 million households around the world. And the question came to me
with respect to sexually active youngsters. I'm a great believer in
abstinence programs. My wife and I participated in the founding of
such programs. We funded them. With my America's Promise activity, we
preach this kind of message of abstinence to young people.
The United States policy with respect to this issue starts with
abstinence, then faithfulness, but then condoms, for the simple reason
that people are sexually active around the word, and HIV/AIDS is not
just a disease; it is a disease and it is a pandemic that is
destroying the lives of millions of people around the world,
especially in sub-Saharan Africa. And we have to do everything we can
to teach people that if they are going to be sexually active, they
have to protect themselves. People will disagree as to how effective
condoms are; we believe they are effective and we do have government
programs that provide them.
And so we have a comprehensive program that begins with abstinence. So
I have no apology for the way in which I answered the question, and
the reason that Mr. Fleischer embraced that position is because it was
part of our overall comprehensive policy. I co-chair the President's
Cabinet-level task force with Secretary of Health and Human Services
Tommy Thompson on HIV/AIDS. Why the Secretary of State and the
Secretary of Health and Human Services? Because it is not just a
domestic problem; it's a worldwide problem that affects our national
security. And we can't blind ourselves to it or hide behind old
shibboleths.
And when I said that we've got to get rid of conservative views, I
wasn't talking about political conservative views, capital "C". I was
talking about small "c." In many undeveloped nations, people don't
want to talk about it. They hide behind old cultural mores and tribal
shibboleths. We have to get rid of that so that we can educate
youngsters to protect themselves, educate youngsters why they should
abstain, why they should be faithful. But if they are going to be
sexually active, we have got to educate them how to protect
themselves. And one way to do that is with condoms, and for me to have
said anything else would have been irresponsible. And as my daughter
told me when I was getting ready for MTV, "Dad, don't try to snow
these kids."
MR. BLITZER: Your daughter gave you some good advice, as usual. Mr.
Secretary, thanks so much for joining us. Have a safe journey. Good
luck in Asia.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thanks, Wolf.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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