19 February 2002
Transcript: Defense Deputy Wolfowitz on Fox News Sunday, Feb. 17
(Terms criticism of "axis of evil" phrase simplistic) (2820)
President Bush "put the whole world on notice" by his characterization
of Iraq, Iran and North Korea as an "axis of evil" for their programs
to develop weapons of mass destruction and their support for
international terrorism, according to Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul
Wolfowitz.
Appearing on Fox News Sunday February 17, Wolfowitz said that by using
the phrase that many have subsequently criticized, the president has
"invited a dialogue about how you deal with it. But what he said is we
can't continue living with those evils any longer."
"We now, after September 11th, have a graphic, clear understanding of
what commercial airliners can do. We can't wait until we have a
graphic, clear understanding of what biological weapons or nuclear
weapons can do before we do something about breaking that connection,"
Wolfowitz said.
Regarding specific criticism of Bush's characterization as simplistic,
Wolfowitz said "It's so much like what people said 16 years ago when
Ronald Reagan talked about the Soviet Union as an evil empire." He
noted that there was considerable criticism of the United States'
initial anti-terrorism focus on Afghanistan, but that "it's become
very clear that that criticism we heard was a simplistic criticism.
And I think some of the criticisms we're hearing today are
simplistic."
During the interview, Wolfowitz also talked about: U.S. consultations
with Asian allies and China on terrorism; the need to continue
gathering intelligence both in Afghanistan and from the detainees at
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba; the response of Iran; and the necessity to deal
with Iraq.
Following is a transcript of Wolfowitz's remarks:
(begin transcript)
DoD News Briefing Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz Sunday,
Feb. 17, 2002
(Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz interview with Brit Hume, Fox News
Sunday.)
Hume: New intelligence this week suggests that the al Qaeda terror
network is rebuilding. Also, administration officials said again this
week if the war on terror expands to Iraq, the United States is
prepared, if necessary, to go it alone there.
To discuss these issues and more, we welcome Deputy Defense Secretary
Paul Wolfowitz.
Good morning, sir.
Wolfowitz: Good morning. Good to be here.
Hume: Nice to have you.
Let's talk about Iraq for a little bit. The president has said several
times, reiterated by aides, that Saddam Hussein must allow weapons
inspectors back in. Any weapons inspectors? Whose weapons inspectors?
What does he have to do to get out of the doghouse?
Wolfowitz: The president, I think, made it very clear, and it was a
very important speech to make, in identifying those three countries as
countries that have this very dangerous connection between terrorism
and weapons of mass destruction. And he basically said, look, we can't
continue living with that. We've sort of accepted it as a necessary
evil. It's an unnecessary evil.
Hume: Speaking, of course, about Iraq, Iran and North Korea.
Wolfowitz: North Korea, right. And, you know, he put the whole world
on notice that these are problems. And he's really, in effect, invited
a dialogue about how you deal with it. But what he said is we can't
continue living with those evils any longer.
Hume: Well, what about Iraq, specifically, though? He has said with
regard to Iraq -- this obviously doesn't seem to apply in the same way
to the other two countries -- that Saddam Hussein must let the weapons
inspectors back in. In this sense, is he referring to the U.N. weapons
inspections regime? Is he talking about other weapons inspectors? What
needs to happen? If Saddam Hussein were to ask you, "Look, I want to
get out of trouble with you guys. I want to do this. What do you want
me to do?" What would you say?
Wolfowitz: Well, I think, first, I'd say prove it. I mean we've had a
long record of deception and pretense in, inspectors out, inspectors
deceived and tricked. I think we're the man from Missouri on this one.
And as the president said the other day, he's not going to start
speculating in a great deal in public beyond what he said about the
danger of this problem. And I think we're going to listen to people
and we're going to have ideas, and there isn't any fixed solution.
There's a mix of things, diplomatic pressure, political pressure,
military pressure. But the problem has got to be dealt with. It can't
be walked away from.
You know, I hear people say that somehow the president made a mistake
by identifying these countries as problems, that it was simplistic, it
was outrageous, the president of the United States shouldn't talk like
that. It's so much like what people said 16 years ago when Ronald
Reagan talked about the Soviet Union as an evil empire.
Hume: Well, let me just stop you for a second on that and let's look
at what a couple of people have said about this. Hubert Vedrine, who
is the French foreign minister, had something to say. "Today," he said
-- this is back on February 6th -- "we are threatened by a new
simplistic" -- your word -- "approach that reduces all the problems to
the world to the struggle against terrorism." And from Germany comes
this from Joschka Fischer, the German foreign minister, and this was
only yesterday, quote: "The international coalition against terror is
not the basis to take action against someone, and least of all
unilaterally. All European foreign ministers see it that way. This is
why the phrase 'axis of evil' leads nowhere." Now that's pretty strong
stuff coming from two close allies, particularly Fischer, as recently
as yesterday. You said you wanted to start a dialogue. What would be
your response to that kind of dialogue?
Wolfowitz: Well, I'd say, first of all, the notion that we're
unilateralists is just nonsense. The president is on a trip right now
to Asia to talk to two of our closest allies and to one of the most
important countries in the world, China, about building relationships,
including in the war on terror. And, by the way, not just the war on
terror. It's part of the longer-term policy of addressing what is
perhaps the most important area of the world, or one of the most
important areas in the world today. We're not being unilateralists in
Afghanistan. In fact, I think Americans should recognize we're getting
a lot of contributions from other countries. Right now, today in
Afghanistan, if you count up the troops in Kabul as part of the
international security force, as well as those who are fighting with
us, there're more non-Americans than there are Americans.
What I would say to people who say we're being simplistic is it sounds
an awful lot to me like people who said when the war in Afghanistan
started that the Americans are attacking Afghanistan; it's going to
send the Arab world and the Muslim world up in flames. We weren't
attacking Afghanistan. We were liberating the Afghan people. And it's
become very clear now that that criticism that we heard was a
simplistic criticism. And I think some of the criticisms we're hearing
today are simplistic.
Hume: And what about the idea that you hear, this phrase "axis of
evil," leads nowhere?
Wolfowitz: Look, I think what leads to a very, very dangerous place is
the mixture of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of terrorists
who, as they demonstrated on September 11th, don't even care about
their own lives, much less the lives of other people. We now, after
September 11th, have a graphic, clear understanding of what commercial
airliners can do. We can't wait until we have a graphic, clear
understanding of what biological weapons or nuclear weapons can do
before we do something about breaking that connection.
Hume: And you say do something. Do what now?
Wolfowitz: Well, I don't want to be simplistic. There're a lot of
things we can do. But what we can't do is continue living with that
problem.
Hume: All right. Let's turn to the situation in Afghanistan now. As
has been discovered now, these some 70 caves said to contain a trove
of ammunition, and somebody called it "the heart of darkness" of al
Qaeda. What have we learned from those caves and what's been found in
them?
Wolfowitz: We're learning a lot. But we're also learning that there's
an enormous amount that we don't know. And I think we have to
understand that that is part of this war on terror as well is that
these people have -- I mean one of their key expertise, areas of
expertise has been how to hide, how to conceal. That's how they were
able to get people into this country and onto airplanes. And we're not
going to solve this problem overnight. They're rooted into some 60
countries around the world. We have been able to get leads out of
Afghanistan that have helped us, for example, in rolling up an al
Qaeda network in the Philippines. We're getting information about the
kinds of people they've trained and were able to pick up people
elsewhere based on that.
Hume: This came from this stuff in these caves?
Wolfowitz: I think from places in Afghanistan. I don't know if it's
specifically those particular caves. But it is hard work and we're
still at it, and it's one reason, too, that people have got to
remember the war in Afghanistan is very far from over.
Hume: Was the discovery and uprooting of these caves in some sense
delayed by the fact that earlier military actions were so focused on
areas where intelligence suggested Osama bin Laden might have been
hiding?
Wolfowitz: I don't think so. I think -- look, we're talking about a
very big country. We're talking about, frequently, very fragmentary
information. And we're trying to do what we're doing there without a
huge American occupation force, which will cause us bigger problems in
the long run.
Hume: There's a new bin Laden tape said to have been discovered south
of Kabul by friendly forces. What do you know about that tape?
Wolfowitz: Nothing. I just heard about it for the first time this
morning.
Hume: But do you believe that there is, in fact, such a tape and that
bin Laden is on it? Or --
Wolfowitz: Honestly, I don't know, Tony (sic).
Hume: All right. I'm Brit.
Wolfowitz: Sorry.
(Laughter.)
Hume: That's all right. That's okay. I'm sitting [in] his normal
place.
Wolfowitz: That's right.
Hume: Let me ask you about the captives being held at Guantanamo Bay.
What is eventually going to happen to them? Are they going to be
tried? Are they going to be sent back? What's going to happen to them?
Wolfowitz: There're a lot of options for them. I think the most
important thing right now is to focus on the fact that, first of all,
these are dangerous people, and they're still trying to hurt people.
They make threats all the time, and we've got to keep them secure.
Our principal objective is to get whatever information we can get them
to give us about networks elsewhere. Then, ultimately, there are
decisions about whether, if they are guilty of a crime, is it
something to be tried in the United States, or is it something to be
tried in another country? If it's in the United States, there're
various options for doing that. So we're a long way, I think, from
taking these people to trial.
Hume: Does their cooperation help their cause in terms of whether
they'll be tried and where?
Wolfowitz: Absolutely. Well, look, I mean the more people give us, the
more it might extenuate whatever they're guilty of.
Hume: Is it possible, then, that we're going to have a kind of
prisoner of war camp, not in the legal sense, at Guantanamo Bay for an
indefinite period of time?
Wolfowitz: I think that's probably a good way to think about it. I
mean, at the very least, where these are dangerous people, we don't
want them just turned loose on the streets. So either we detain them
ourselves or we turn them over to a court in the United States, or we
turn them over to another country.
Hume: And how long could this go on down there?
Wolfowitz: It's a long struggle. The president has repeated, Secretary
Rumsfeld has repeated from the beginning, this war on terrorism is
going to go on for a long time. And I think people better get used to
the fact that it's going to be going on for a long time. We've had
some wonderful early victories in Afghanistan. I think that's almost
made people's expectations too high and think it's all over. We've
been blessed that so far, at least, there hasn't been a repetition of
major terrorism since September 11th, although Richard Reid did try to
take down another airliner. I think the American people, the whole
world have got to understand that this struggle continues. It
continues to be very dangerous. The people we're holding in Guantanamo
are very dangerous. And their friends around the world are very
dangerous.
Hume: Now, reports continue to come out of that area where the
Predator bomb hit that say, no, no, hit the wrong people. Can you
offer anything further on that?
Wolfowitz: We're looking into it. We're trying to figure out from what
evidence we've been able to recover who it could have been. And we
don't have the answer yet.
Hume: Well, it was said at the time at the Pentagon that it was
believed it was a proper target and that it was, indeed, coordinated
by the CIA with military planners. Is that the case? And do you still
believe that this was a proper target?
Wolfowitz: Based on everything we know so far, we still think it was a
proper target. But we don't know a great deal more than what we knew
the day we took that shot.
Hume: All right. Now, let me turn to --
Wolfowitz: But, Brit, you know, people should understand, too. I mean
everyone wants us to get bin Laden and get the worst al Qaeda people.
And they need to understand that every time we take an action, it's
going to be based on intelligence that has gaps in it. That's the
nature of the business that we're in. And, again, I think it would be
important, because we're going to continue operations in Afghanistan
for a long time, to understand that we've make judgments based on
intelligence that isn't 100 percent perfect. If you wait for 100
percent perfect intelligence, a lot of bad guys are going to get away.
Hume: One last, quick question on Iran. They're saying that they've
detained 150 al Qaeda suspects. (A), do you believe them? And, (B), do
you believe that if they do, if they are holding them or have been
holding them, that they're handling them properly?
Wolfowitz: Look, you have to be very wary about believing a regime
like that too quickly. What I do believe is that the president has
gotten their attention. I don't think they'd be talking about
detaining al Qaeda suspects if the president and people in this
administration hadn't been very candid about identifying that as a
problem. And I go back to the people who say that it's somehow
simplistic to identify a problem. I think it's simplistic to pretend
that things will get better if we don't talk about what's wrong.
Hume: I want to take one last crack with you on Iraq. You said earlier
when asked what Saddam Hussein would have to do to get out of trouble
with the United States and its friend that he'd have to show you. The
question is, show you what?
Wolfowitz: You know, in 1991 at the end of the Gulf war, Saddam
Hussein was given -- he was told to get rid of all of his weapons of
mass destruction. He was given six months to prove to the world that
he'd gotten rid of them. And over the last ten plus years, all he's
done is proven to the world that he continues to hold onto them; he
continues to develop them. That has got to stop.
Hume: Public destruction of such weapons? Acknowledgement that he has
them? Is there anything that would be a first step?
Wolfowitz: I don't want to speculate. I think if we got to that point,
we would know it.
Hume: All right. Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, a pleasure
to have. Thank you for coming.
Wolfowitz: It's good to be here, Brit.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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