11 January 2002
Transcript: Defense Department Briefing, January 11, 2002
(Afghanistan/death of two senior Taliban leaders, terrorism/usefulness
of intelligence gathered in Afghanistan, Afghanistan/U.S. goals,
Afghanistan/air strikes at Zhawar Kili compound, detainees/group of 20
arrive in Cuba/treatment during flight/legal status, status of
American Taliban John Walker, Singapore/role of intelligence from
Afghanistan in recent arrests, Afghanistan/reports of release of
senior Taliban, Afghanistan/U.S. relations with interim government,
Rumsfeld/meeting with Greek official, Pakistan/military coordination
with U.S., Iran/weapons trade with Afghanistan) (7480)
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld and Air Force Gen. Richard B.
Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, briefed reporters at the
Pentagon January 11.
Following is the transcript:
(begin transcript)
DEFENSE DEPARTMENT OPERATIONAL UPDATE
BRIEFERS: SECRETARY OF DEFENSE DONALD RUMSFELD;
GENERAL RICHARD B. MYERS, USAF, CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF
THE BRIEFING ROOM OF THE PENTAGON,
ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA
2:10 P.M. EST -- FRIDAY, JANUARY 11, 2002
Rumsfeld: Good afternoon. The -- we're sorry we're a little late. We
held up while the service concluded.
The Taliban have been obviously driven from governmental power, but
the campaign in Afghanistan is far from over. There is still unrest in
many parts of the country. A number of senior Taliban and al Qaeda
officials are still at large. There are unquestionably a number of
pockets of Taliban and al Qaeda fighters that remain and have to be
dealt with. They continue to pose a threat to coalition forces, as
well as the Afghan people.
Coalition forces will continue to deal with the Taliban and al Qaeda
targets, both from the air and on the ground, as we find them, and
they are doing so.
We continue to conduct intelligence gathering operations, combing
through the tunnels, caves, bunkers, houses, terrorist camps, and
interrogating detainees, searching for information that will help us
disrupt terrorist networks and prevent further terrorist acts.
I think it's noteworthy that some four months to the day that the
terrorists attacked the United States, the first group of al Qaeda and
Taliban detainees are arriving or have arrived at a detention center
in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Our operations are working. We've captured or killed a number of
senior Taliban and al Qaeda leaders. And as we interrogate more
detainees, we are being told of terrorists who they believe were
killed in earlier bombing raids over the past several months. We are
in the process of trying to evaluate these reports that we're
receiving from detainees about the deaths of some other senior people,
and as we are able to validate them, we'll undoubtedly make that
information available.
But needless to say, one of our goals is the capture of Osama bin
Laden and Omar and other senior al Qaeda and Taliban people. But it is
not our only goal, as one might assume from the public focus on those
two individuals. In my view, equally or more important is the goal of
stopping terrorist networks from being able to continue to threaten
the United States, our friends and allies.
And towards that end, it is of great urgency that we access all of the
intelligence information that we can. These are the suspected weapons
of mass destruction sites that we've been examining, Taliban and al
Qaeda safe houses, looking for documents, computers and the like, as
well as the information and materials that we're obtaining from the
interrogation of now hundreds of detainees. It's from these activities
that we are most likely to gain the information that will help us
prevent future attacks.
In addition, we have the goal of finding and dealing with the
remaining pockets of Taliban and al Qaeda resistance. Finally, we have
the goal of assisting the interim government of Afghanistan in
assuring that it continues to help in the war on terrorism, that we
are supportive of their goal to achieve stability and to resist any
external influences on them, including, as the president pointed out
yesterday, excessive Iranian influence, and that, finally, we work
with other countries to assist in providing the humanitarian
assistance that the people of Afghanistan clearly need.
In the course of recent operations, we have obtained a great deal of
materials, literally hundreds of weapons and ordnance, pieces of
ordnance. I think it probably is even more than hundreds, the last
tally I saw, plus an enormous number of documents and videotapes and
computer discs and hard drive and laptops and portable phones and
address books and the like. And these are providing insights into the
activities of the Taliban and the al Qaeda. Some of the information
we've gathered, we already knew. Other information adds credence to
what we already knew. Still other information is brand new and
helpful. And all of it is helping us to put together a
multidimensional puzzle, and the more pieces we get, the more it
begins to reveal a story of the al Qaeda terrorist network, its
capabilities, its reach, and the other networks with which it
collaborates. But needless to say, there are still many missing pieces
to the puzzle.
Finally, we want to keep in mind that our goal is not simply to
capture one or two or more terrorist leaders in Afghanistan or to put
one terrorist network out of business. It is to tackle terrorism
wherever it exists so that Americans can live in peace and free from
fear.
General Myers.
Myers: Thank you, Mr. Secretary. And good afternoon, everyone.
Yesterday our forces struck buildings and caves and tunnels in the
Zhawar Kili area. In those strikes, we used 44 precision weapons that
were called in by our forces that are still operating in the area. A
total of nine bombers and tactical aircraft were used during these
strikes, which lasted from about 8:00 yesterday till 15:30 yesterday,
Eastern Standard Time.
The number of al Qaeda and Taliban detainees transferred to U.S.
forces in Afghanistan has continued to grow and now stands at 445. As
the secretary said, the first plane with 20 detainees arrived in
Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. We got the -- we were notified here at
approximately 13:50 our time. As the plane departed Kandahar
yesterday, there were reports of some small arms fired. This occurred
over the span of about an hour, around the time the aircraft was
departing. The Marines at the airport launched a quick reaction force
to investigate the shots. The approach of our forces apparently caused
those who were responsible for the shooting to flee, and a sweep
afterward did not uncover significant material nor the folks that were
doing the shooting.
Most importantly, I'd like to offer my condolences, along with those
of many others, of course, to the families of the Marines who were
killed in the KC-130 plane crash the other day. These men, and the one
woman, were volunteers. Now they're heroes. Their families will miss
them, and we'll miss them. Most importantly, we'll miss their service,
their great service to our country.
And with that, we'll take your questions.
Rumsfeld: Charlie?
Q: Mr. Secretary, now that the first planeload of detainees has landed
in Cuba, how do you respond to charges from some non-governmental
organizations that hooding, shaving, chaining, perhaps even --
Rumsfeld: What are the words?
Q: Hooding, putting hoods on, shaving, chaining, perhaps even
tranquilizing some of these people is violating their civil rights?
Rumsfeld: That -- that's not correct.
Q: That you've done it or that --
Q: That you've done it or that it violates --
Rumsfeld: That it's a violation of their rights. It simply isn't. And
the -- I asked if anyone had had to be sedated and the answer was that
there was one person who was sedated during the course of the trip
from Kandahar to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. But that's all.
And the prisoners -- all one has to do is look at television any day
of the week, and you can see that when prisoners are being moved
between locations, they're frequently restrained in some way with
handcuffs or some sort of restraints.
That is not new, it is not in any way inappropriate, and I think one
ought to go and ask about the source of those kinds of comments,
rather than the substance of them.
Q: Will these people be given -- will the International Red Cross and
perhaps other nongovernmental organizations be given to these people?
Rumsfeld: Be --
Q: Be given -- will they be given access to these detainees?
Rumsfeld: I think that we're in the process of sorting through
precisely the right way to handle them, and they will be handled in
the right way.
They will be handled not as prisoners of wars, because they're not,
but as unlawful combatants. The -- as I understand it, technically
unlawful combatants do not have any rights under the Geneva
Convention. We have indicated that we do plan to, for the most part,
treat them in a manner that is reasonably consistent with the Geneva
Conventions, to the extent they are appropriate, and that is exactly
what we have been doing.
Q: Mr. Secretary?
Rumsfeld: Yes?
Q: John Walker -- as we understand it, he's still being held aboard
the Bataan in the Arabian Sea. What does the United States intend to
do with him? Is he being held incommunicado? Can he talk to his family
and his attorney? How long do you intend to hold him? What can you
tell us about John Walker, please?
Rumsfeld: That his case is being addressed by the Department of
Defense and the Department of Justice, and at some point in the period
ahead, we'll have a recommendation.
Q: But not imminent?
Rumsfeld: I don't set deadlines. Who knows? I know it's being
addressed actively, and a decision will be made at some point in the
period ahead.
Q: Mr. Secretary, you've spent a lot of time today talking in your
statement about the amount of intelligence that you've gathered. Can
you tell us what role that played in the arrests in Singapore? Was
this one of the success stories of this operation? And what was the
nature of the threat in Singapore against U.S. military interests that
was apparently thwarted? Can you tell us anything about that?
Rumsfeld: Well, I apologize that I've not had a chance today to see
television, but I understand that there are some things being said by
the Singapore government about the fact that they have rolled up a
network or a number of people who were -- are suspected of having been
terrorists of some sort. And I don't know what else they've said, and
I am -- I know the answer to your question, but it's not clear that
it's for me to get into it.
Q: They said that it was -- that they caught these people because of a
tape that was found in an al Qaeda leader's house in Afghanistan.
Rumsfeld: Who said that, the government of Singapore?
Q: The government of Singapore.
Rumsfeld: Well, if the government of Singapore said that, I'd go with
it.
Q: Can you say, are there other countries where arrests have been made
based on evidence that's been found in Afghanistan?
Rumsfeld: I am reasonably sure there are, although I can't name one,
so I ought not to say that. But there is so much intelligence coming
in and so much intelligence moving through law enforcement and
intelligence circles, and through the CENTCOM circles, to provide
additional information as to what we might do and where we might go,
to the extent it's in Afghanistan, obviously CENTCOM and others of us
are involved in that. To the extent it is in other countries, it tends
to be law enforcement officials. And I just don't -- I lose track of
them after that happens, to be perfectly honest, because I have so
much going on here at this department.
Yes?
Q: Mr. Secretary, Jamie's follow-up was -- (laughter) --
Rumsfeld: Jamie doesn't need help!
Q: -- how specific the threat was to U.S. forces in Singapore. Could
you talk about that?
Rumsfeld: It was specific.
Q: Well, could you elaborate on that?
Rumsfeld: Well, no, I could, but I don't think I should. I mean,
there's no question but -- I mean, there's going to be -- obviously,
these people are going to be tried and -- or correction -- they're
going to be interrogated, and then to the extent charges are
appropriate, charges will be filed; to the extent charges are filed,
they'll be tried, according to Singapore law, one would think. And I
don't know that I should get into it.
But we do have vessels in the area and we do have people in the area,
and so do other countries, coalition countries, and the government of
Singapore. There are all kinds of targets that exist in that area. And
I think that the government of Singapore has acted with dispatch, and
we're very pleased that they have been able to do what they've done.
Q: Mr. Secretary -- can I take my shot back, Ian? -- you said earlier
that you're putting together a multi-dimensional picture of al Qaeda
based on the information you're collecting in Afghanistan, and that
some of the insights you've gained are, you said, brand new. I'm
wondering if you can tell us what you've learned about al Qaeda that
you didn't know before?
Rumsfeld: I don't know that I will. It is -- when I say -- I shouldn't
say "we're" putting it together; it is all of the government together
is piecing together a picture of this organization, and as new pieces
are brought into it, one gets a better understanding of the breadth
and the depth and the dimension of their activities. And it is a very
interesting and helpful process that we're going through.
And because we've been so fortunate to get access to so much
information, particularly in Afghanistan, where places were left in
great haste, it has been particularly helpful. Almost every arrest --
not all, because some just don't talk, but almost every arrest leads
to additional pieces of information. It may be scraps of information
in their pockets, it may be things they say, it may be other
connections that occur.
Q: Is it, for example, to tell you that they're operating in some
countries that you didn't know, or more countries or fewer countries
than you thought before?
Rumsfeld: I think I've probably answered it as fully as I'm inclined
to.
Q: Mr. Secretary, you said that some of the detainees provided
information in terms of al Qaeda leaders who may have been killed in
--
Rumsfeld: True.
Q: -- some of the American bombing. Can you share with us the
identities or even the numbers of al Qaeda and leadership, whether --
Rumsfeld: I think I heard of, what, two today?
Myers: Yes, sir.
Rumsfeld: I think we heard of two more today that we're told -- we
were told that in the interrogations, reasonably authoritative
comments were made by al Qaeda and/or Taliban people to the effect
that relatively senior people, two of them, had, in fact, died, one in
December and I think one before that. What we're doing is we're -- as
I indicated, I think, before, we're in the process of pulling together
a list of a relatively small number of people, senior Taliban, senior
al Qaeda, and with their names and the spelling and their
nationalities and their titles to the extent we have them, and what we
think their current disposition is. And it would be that they're
either dead or probably dead, or captured and currently being
detained, or unlocated, unknown, whatever. And we're trying to do that
in a way that we can ultimately declassify it. And when we have that
done -- it's been through several iterations at this stage.
Q: Could you give us numbers of --
Rumsfeld: Well, for the sake of argument, you know, a few handfuls, a
couple of handfuls, three, four, 10, 15 people of senior al Qaeda and
senior Taliban, something like that.
Q: Are you disappointed that number is not higher at this point?
Q: Mr. Secretary --
Rumsfeld: No. No. You could list hundreds. We've got hundreds of
detainees. What the list is, is the more senior people involved. It's
designed to be at that size, rather than trying to list hundreds of
people, don't you see? We're not disappointed, no.
Q: But there were more than 15 senior Taliban and al Qaeda leaders
combined after --
Rumsfeld: Well, give us their names. (Laughter.)
Q: Mr. Secretary, you said that you have a lot of work to do to get
the senior al Qaeda and senior Taliban still on the loose. What's your
reaction to the release of seven Taliban leaders in Kandahar, and some
of them senior?
Rumsfeld: I've read those reports and I've tracked them down two days
in a row, and we can't verify that that ever happened, that there were
ever those people in custody, that anyone -- it's hard to be released
if you were never in custody.
Q: So you're saying it didn't happen?
Rumsfeld: I'm not saying it didn't happen.
Q: Oh.
Rumsfeld: I'm saying precisely what I said.
Q: Okay.
Rumsfeld: That for two days, I've tried to track down these
fascinating stories I've been reading in the press and hearing debated
on television, and I am not able to do so. I find -- I keep pursuing
it and saying, "My goodness. They can't all be wrong. Please see if
you can't find what they're writing about."
And they come back to me with something like this; that it may be that
there are some senior Taliban somewhere, not necessarily in any area
or any country, but it may be that there are some, a handful, maybe
even that right number, and it may be that one or more or them called
and talked to some subordinate in one of the Taliban elements in
Afghanistan and said, "Hey, there's a few of us around who might like
to turn ourselves in if the deal was right, but we're not going to
tell you where we are, and we want to see about how this might work."
And it might be that that got reported up and rejected, and someone
could say, "Gee, x number were in custody and released, because the
deal was never made."
Now, how many times is that going on in Afghanistan today? I would
guess a dozen. At any given moment, there are people who are in the
mountains or in neighboring countries saying, "Gee, I'd like to come
back to Afghanistan someday. I think I'll call up my old friend. I
used to fight with what's his name, and I'll give him a call and say,
'Gee, if you can work out this deal that we can come on back in there
and everything will be all right, we might do that. We might even join
your army.'"
But I can't find what people have been writing about and talking about
on television. I can't find it. But this does not say it didn't
happen.
Q: If I can follow up, is there any level of frustration or concern
that the new Afghan government may be lenient as far as handing over
Taliban leaders?
Rumsfeld: No. I'm not frustrated or concerned. I am finding the
government very cooperative. I speak to Mr. Karzai, the interim
chairman, from day to day on various things. I find him uniformly
cooperative, sharing the same goals. He's interested -- he and his
associates are interested in -- as we are -- in ridding that country
of al Qaeda and Taliban leaders. We're interested in stopping
terrorism. Is it a perfectly tidy place? No. Is everyone doing exactly
what one might hope they might do? No. But is the interim government
focused on this problem roughly the way we are? You bet they are. And
I feel quite good about it.
Q: Mr. Secretary --
Q: Mr. Secretary --
Rumsfeld: Wait a second. If there's anyone in this room who can give
me any more information about these people who were supposed to be in
custody, whether you've written about it or not -- (laughter) -- I'll
be available after the meeting.
Myers: Let me just add something. Let me just add --
Q: It is the foreign ministry. These are our allies that are saying
this. It is on-the-record people in the foreign ministry. Are they
wrong? All I'm saying is we have pressed to try to find if it's true,
and we have not been able to provide -- find any evidence that would
validate it.
Excuse me.
Myers: I would only add, Mr. Secretary, that you've got to be very
careful when you see names because there are similarities of names,
there are aliases used.
Rumsfeld: Oh, yeah.
Myers: And it gets very, very confusing.
Q: Is that what makes it so difficult to come up with a list of the al
Qaeda?
Rumsfeld: There's so many aliases and usages; they'll use one name
instead of two, or reverse them.
Yes, Barbara?
Q: I'd like to just ask General Myers -- go back to the issue of
Singapore, General Myers, and ask you, the documents released
officially by the government of Singapore now, and the videotape
released by the government of Singapore, clearly and absolutely
indicate that the U.S. Navy was being targeted in Singapore by this al
Qaeda cell, that Navy ships, Navy personnel and facilities used by the
U.S. Navy. So, if that was the case and the United States was clearly
aware of this back through the December timeframe when these arrests
were being made, could you just explain to us a little bit more about
why it was that you guys felt confident enough to allow U.S. Navy
ships to continue to make port calls in Singapore and continue to
allow sailors to move through Singapore? What led you to have the
confidence that you could do that, unlike in Yemen?
Myers: Sure. Sure. Obviously, with a country like Singapore, we have
very close relationships. And our unified commander, our combatant
commander in the Pacific, Admiral Blair, closely monitors the force
protection and the threat conditions in the region, and works very
closely with host governments. They are pretty much aware of threats,
and so forth, and they'll take appropriate measures. So, as long as
they feel they can take appropriate measures, ships will be allowed to
visit, and so forth.
Q: So while this threat was going on, you felt it was -- just to
understand more clearly --
Myers: I don't want to get into details of how we do that, but -- and
in fact, some of this is for the Singapore government to tell you, and
so you'll have to ask them. But with the -- the videotape that the
Singapore government says they got from Afghanistan was not the first
indication that we had threats against our forces, okay?
Q: Mr. Secretary?
Q: A question for General Myers.
Rumsfeld: Just a second.
Q: Sir, when you opened up your statement, you said in your view it's
equally or more important the goal of stopping terrorist networks and
it's of great urgency that we access all of the intelligence
information that we can.
From that, should we take that there's been a shift in emphasis in the
military's mission there to get away from the manhunt and put more man
hours into exploiting what you find?
Rumsfeld: No, we still have folks in the air and on the ground,
pursuing the senior Taliban and al Qaeda leadership. I wouldn't want
to leave the impression we're not.
If one thinks about it, those leaders are not at the present time able
to function very effectively. We have disrupted their communication.
We've got them on the move. And while they remain important and we
continue to put assets and, as I say, aircraft and people on that
task, which is an important task, I would say that the -- equally or
even more important is the task of gathering this intelligence, which
has now just become available in large amounts, and pursuing it
aggressively, it -- with the thought that you can conceivably stop
something from happening, as is the case in Singapore and other
places.
I mean, if you think about the September 11th event here and in New
York, and the value of that information, and to the extent we can put
this thing together even a day or two or five days faster, by putting
great effort on it, we may very well prevent a terrorist attack
involving not thousands but more than thousands.
Q: Mr. Secretary --
Q: But are you putting more manpower or something to that end?
Rumsfeld: There's a lot of manpower being put on it. We're sending --
Q: Any increase now that all the intelligence is becoming available?
Rumsfeld: Well, we've got people all over involved in evaluating the
intelligence information. That is to say, you locate it, and then you
put it where expert people can analyze it -- in some cases, do the
translations; in other cases, do the evaluations -- and the same
thing's true on the interrogations. The faster we can interrogate
these people and identify them, and get what they have in them out of
them, in as graceful a way as is possible -- needless to say, we have
a better chance of saving some people's lives.
Q: Mr. Secretary, if we can go back to General Myers, for a moment,
and to your beginning comments, you mentioned the strikes on Zhawar
Kili, again in that area. What are you finding there? And it seems to
continuous. What are you finding intelligence-wise there and otherwise
to help you continue?
Myers: Well, I think the secretary covered some of that. This was the
sixth strike in that area. As we talked about before, it's a large
area. I think there are over 60 above-ground structures. There are
over 50 caves, some of which have been closed, some of which have been
exploited. And they're finding lots and lots of military equipment and
other items that, as the secretary said, will lead us down the paths
we want to go.
Q: (Off mike) --
Rumsfeld: Let me just take a minute and say something about the
intelligence information.
If I stood up here and told you precisely that in city X we found item
X or Y and are accessing it, it would tell anyone out there that
there's a likelihood that we now know something that we previously
didn't know that could put them in jeopardy. There are those who are
so pleased with all that we're gathering that they're anxious to say
what they're gathering, and they're anxious to say the numbers of
things we've gathered and what locations we've gathered them from and
who gathered them.
I'm not. I am much more interested in stopping terrorists. And to the
extent that laying all of that out is going to make us look like we're
good gatherers, it does not -- it does not begin to weigh as much as
having us be good and successful in stopping terrorists from killing
people.
Q: But based on what --
Q: Mr. Secretary, you said, that for the most part, the detainees will
be treated in a manner consistent with the Geneva Convention. Exactly
which parts, which rights, privileges of the Geneva Convention will
they have, and who will decide, and when will it be decided on an ad
hoc basis? And just as a follow-up, can you say if there's been any --
Rumsfeld: Well, let me work on that one for a minute. That's a
mouthful.
What we've said from the beginning is that these are unlawful
combatants in our view, and we're detaining them. We call them
detainees, not prisoners of war. We call them detainees. We have said
that, you know, being the kind of a country we are, it's our intention
to recognize that there are certain standards that are generally
appropriate for treating people who were -- are prisoners are war,
which these people are not, and -- in our view -- but there -- and,
you know, to the extent that it's reasonable, we will end up using
roughly that standard. And that's what we're doing. I don't -- I
wouldn't want to say that I know in any instance where we would
deviate from that or where we might exceed it. But I'm sure we'll
probably be on both sides of it modestly.
Q: For instance, will we be allowed to see a list of exactly who the
detainees are?
Rumsfeld: I don't know. I've got -- there are a bunch of lawyers who
are looking at all these treaties and conventions and everything,
trying to figure out what's appropriate. The only thing, I did notice
that you can't take pictures of them. That's considered embarrassing
for them, and they can't be interviewed, according to the Geneva
Convention.
Myers: Let me add a couple --
Rumsfeld: Yeah, sure.
Myers: Let me just add a couple of things to that. We've got to
remember that these are very, very dangerous people. And, as I think
Charlie, you asked the first question about, well, why were they
shackled? I mean, these are --
Q: I'm just passing on the -- (off mike.)
Myers: Well, I'm not.
Rumsfeld: (Laughs.)
Myers: Charlie, I'm coming right back to you. I said you asked the
question; I didn't say anything else. (Laughter.)
But if you remember the situation in Mazar --
Rumsfeld: A little sensitive!
Did you notice how sensitive Charlie is? (Laughs; laughter.) Do you
want to stand up and give your full name and your organization?
(Laughs; laughter.)
Myers: But if you remember the situation in Mazar, where the start of
the rebellion was one of them that had explosives, a grenade or
something, and killed himself, and it sort of started. I mean, these
are people that would gnaw hydraulic lines in the back of a C-17 to
bring it down. I mean, so this is -- these are very, very dangerous
people, and that's how they're being treated.
At the same time, let me give you a little context on how they're
going to be handled when they hit the -- Guantanamo Bay. The meals
they're going to be served are going to be culturally appropriate for
them. And so, I mean, we're going to try to do our best to treat them
humanely, at the same time realizing that they're very, very dangerous
people.
Q: Could you describe the incident that occurred aboard the plane? You
mentioned that one --
Rumsfeld: I can't.
Q: Oh, okay.
Rumsfeld: I just asked the question, was anyone sedated before, during
or in either leg of the trip. And the answer was no, expect one person
was -- had to be sedated, and I don't know --
Myers: And we might find out after -- and that was -- and we might
find out later on the last part of the trip. We haven't gotten a
report yet. There might have been --
Q: They didn't try to gnaw through a hydraulic line?
Rumsfeld: No, no. (Laughter.) Hyperbole.
Myers: That was hyperbole. (More laughter.)
Q: Yesterday, you met with the prime minister of Greece. And may we
have a kind of readout of your talks? Yesterday you met him.
Rumsfeld: We did. We had a very good meeting at the Blair House. And
it was -- we're, of course, NATO allies and friends of long-standing.
We discussed the war against terrorism, which they're assisting with
as a NATO ally. And we discussed the upcoming Olympics here in the
United States and prospectively in Greece, and the security
implications that that holds. And I believe he gave some press report
after the meeting about other aspects of it.
Q: A follow-up. Mr. Secretary --
Q: Mr. Secretary --
Rumsfeld: Yes?
Q: Can you tell us a little bit more about the prisoners who arrived
today? I mean, who they were, what --
Rumsfeld: They're just a group that they picked and decided to bring
-- they're the first 20. I don't even know their names.
Q: Are they people who were chosen because they're senior people,
because --
Rumsfeld: No, I think it probably has more to do with getting the
thing started, and people who probably had reached a certain phase of
interrogation that -- they may very well have been early detainees and
people who have reached a certain phase of the interrogation that it
was appropriate to move them to the other location to free up openings
there. Because as Afghan detainees -- correction -- people being
detained by Afghans and people being detained in Pakistan get released
to us, obviously we need space at Kandahar, and we need space at
Bagram and different places.
So we just have to keep the flow going, and that's what's taking
place.
Yes?
Q: If these guys are so dangerous and they're so --
Rumsfeld: The implication being they're not?
Q: No, no, no.
Rumsfeld: Oh.
Q: I'm just saying, since they are, how is it that we're able to get
specific information on, you know, al Qaeda leaders? In other words,
they're obviously not willing to give us that kind of information. Are
some of them just deciding that it's best for them to give us the
information? Is there a large number of them that are willing to do
the interviews?
Rumsfeld: There's several aspects to it, and one aspect is that there
are Taliban who know things about al Qaeda. And they may not be as
hard-core as the al Qaeda, but they may have worked in close proximity
with them. They may have been functionaries for them. They may have
been couriers for them. They may have been whatever. And so that's one
location.
Some other people just may decide that the better -- you know, that --
"that's enough of that, and maybe I'll just go ahead and cooperate and
see if I can get myself in a better circumstance."
Jim?
Q: Can you tell us whether that's a large number or large proportion
of these guys?
Rumsfeld: I can't.
Yes?
Q: Mr. Secretary, has the government of Pakistan told our government
that we may need to draw down forces in Pakistan, bases, because of
the escalating tensions with India?
Rumsfeld: There have been a number of mixed reports about that, and I
-- rather than get into the detail of whether or not someone in the
government may have said something to someone, because it may very
well have happened, I do know that the president of Pakistan is
addressing the matter personally and that he is retaining forces on
the Afghan border at our request. And we have -- and we have found him
very cooperative in this regard.
Q: But in terms of American assets and the Pakistani bases, have they
said they might need those bases and that therefore we would have to
move those aircraft or personnel?
Rumsfeld: I think that at -- there has been discussion about aircraft
and apron space and fuel and a variety of other things.
Needless to say, if you have two countries, India and Pakistan, that
clearly gone from a circumstance of not being mobilized to a
circumstance of some higher level of mobilization, in that process,
they begin to move their capabilities around. And as they do, in the
case of Pakistan, they find us in various locations and -- that had
not been part of their plan.
So needless to say, discussions take place; they take place between
the Pakistan military and the CENTCOM military and we discuss these
things and work it out -- how do you do this, and what if they need to
bring more people -- more aircraft into some airport, for example, how
would that handle?
Another issue that comes up is in the event of a conflict, obviously,
Pakistan would have a very different view about the use of its
airspace than it does now, not in a conflict. Right now we have the
ability to move things in across that country. And there would be the
whole issue of deconfliction or no flying and -- so there's lots of
complex things that get discussed, and they're being discussed in a
very orderly and sensible way. And as I stated at the outset, a way --
the president of Pakistan has been exceedingly cooperative.
Q: Mr. Secretary, can I follow that?
Q: Mr. Secretary, you cited the goal of keeping Iran --
Q: Can I just follow, sir?
Q: -- keeping Afghanistan free of outside influence, including you
cited Iran, as the president did. Given that, to what extent are you
concerned about Iran supplying weapons to some of the factions within
Afghanistan? Is that something that's of concern to you?
Rumsfeld: Well, if one got up in the morning and said, what is the
thing that Afghanistan needs most, it is not weapons. (Laughter.) They
have ample weapons. I think that the interim -- it is not for me to
say, it's for the interim government and the chairman of the interim
government, during the first six months, and his associates -- in the
case of military things, Fahim Khan, the acting defense minister -- to
address those issues and decide how they want to do that. And they're
going to have to negotiate that, I suspect, with the other, quote,
"armies" or elements throughout that country. And those elements have
a history of having had relationships with other countries,
neighboring countries, for the most part, and having received weaponry
and training and assistance. And things don't just stop
instantaneously. My guess is that that's something that the government
will be working with and thinking about.
But I guess the short answer is, I don't think there's a need for
countries to be supplying a lot of weapons at the present time.
Q: General Myers?
Q: Mr. Secretary? Mr. Secretary?
Q: General Myers, is there still work to be done in Zhawar Kili? And
just to clarify, when you talk about recent operations and a large
amount of intelligence, is that the operation you're talking about
that's been so fruitful, as far as providing intelligence operation
(sic)?
Myers: I was not referring to a specific area when I mentioned that.
And, I mean, I don't want to go into future operations, I mean, I just
think --
Q: Well, maybe you could clarify, though. The airstrikes, those are
designed to destroy equipment that's being found?
Myers: They're to do several things. And again, I'm just not going to
get into the specifics of the operation.
Q: Is it live people, or is it just destruction of things that have
been found in that complex?
Myers: To my knowledge, there are no longer al Qaeda present in that
specific area. Now --
Q: There have not been strikes against people --
Myers: There were earlier. There were earlier -- we briefed --
Q: Earlier there were?
Myers: Right. Yeah.
Q: Mr. Secretary?
Rumsfeld: I do know there have been some strikes that were solely for
the purpose of destroying weaponry. Okay.
Q: A lot of them -- (off mike).
Q: Mr. Secretary, can we go back a little bit to the terrorists that
you say were killed -- three, four, 10, 15? Can you just elaborate a
little bit? Would you say that number would be out of the top 25, and
how significant would you say that is?
Rumsfeld: What I had reference to was, this day, I was told that there
were two senior -- I believe Taliban -- I'm almost sure they were
Taliban -- officials in the top -- people in the top 20, something
like that -- who, we were told by people that we were interrogating,
had been killed weeks ago in attacks in various parts of the country,
which we did not know.
And of course, as I've said all along, there's a great deal we don't
know. When you go into an airstrike in an al Qaeda camp or a tunnel or
a cave or something and close it up, you don't -- unless you had
personal relationships and personal knowledge of what was in there,
you're unlikely to know that. And these people apparently did and have
said that.
Now the reason I'm kind of cautious and careful is not just that I'm a
conservative person; it's that there is always the problem of
disinformation. And you do have to wonder if maybe somebody would want
us to think somebody was dead, and that's why we're being -- we're
using qualifiers -- because I think it's the only responsible thing to
do, and, first of all, it's more accurate from your standpoint, but,
more important, it doesn't fool us. In other words, we lack certainty;
therefore, we ought not to necessarily assume that what we receive by
way of information like that is true.
We'll make this the last question.
Q: Mr. Secretary, can you explain why combatants who are on the enemy
side and were captured -- in some cases, combat -- in wartime should
not be considered prisoners of war?
Rumsfeld: It is a technical matter for lawyers, and there are a series
of things that common usage looks for -- uniforms -- I'm trying to
think of what some -- how one carries their weapons -- visibly or
invisibly. These kind -- there's a whole series of things that are
used as a template for people to determine whether or not somebody was
functioning in a visibly clear military manner or whether they were
not. And to the extent they were not, I'm told by lawyers that they
fit in another category.
It may very well be one of the reasons that the United States is quite
careful about that.
Q: But why is it important that you not consider them -- in other
words, why not just treat them as prisoners of war? If prisoners of
war get additional rights and protections, why not just treat them
that way?
Rumsfeld: That's basically what we're doing. That's what I've said.
We're generally conforming to the Geneva Convention as it applies to
prisoners of war. That's what that --
Q: Why not let it officially apply?
Rumsfeld: Well, first of all, we don't have to. And second, I -- we're
still in the very early stages of this, and we're in the process of
trying to figure out the answers to all of this and how -- what's the
best way to do it? What's the proper way to do it? How will we feel
good about having done it a certain way? And what is appropriate? And
those are the kinds of things that we're going through, because, as I
say, there's hundreds of these people, and more coming from the ones
that are being detained by our friends.
And so we're trying to rapidly build detention areas that are
appropriate, and we're trying to train people to -- military people to
handle hard-case detainees, and -- when that isn't what they normally
do when they get up in the morning. And we're just trying to do it
right.
Q: If U.S. troops which were not wearing uniforms were captured, would
you expect them to be treated with -- in conjunction with the Geneva
Convention?
Rumsfeld: I would expect that other countries in -- if they were
captured by Taliban? No, I'd expect they'd have been killed -- or the
al Qaeda -- they'd have just been shot summarily, as happened with any
number of people. I don't know if you were referring to that. You
probably weren't.
Q: Mr. Secretary, can we just quickly go --
(Cross talk.)
Rumsfeld: I would expect that U.S. military people would be treated in
a manner that was appropriate to their circumstance and -- as we are
treating others in a manner that's appropriate to their circumstance.
There's nothing unusual about it or unique. It's very --
(Cross talk.) We'll go -- no, no, no, no --
Q: Will tribunals be held at Guantanamo? Will tribunals be held at
Guantanamo, sir? (Cross talk)
(Laughter.)
Rumsfeld: I'm plucky, but I'm not stupid. I'm going to -- (laughter).
(Laughs.) Thank you.
Q: Thank you.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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