16 December 2001
Transcript: Powell Says U.S. Determined to Get Bin Laden
(Discusses bin Laden, Iraq, Mideast, ABM treaty on "Fox News Sunday")
(4140)
Secretary of State Colin Powell, interviewed December 16 on "Fox News
Sunday," said President Bush is determined that "however long it
takes," the United States will find Usama bin Laden.
Powell noted that finding bin Laden, head of the al-Qaida terrorist
network, is not the only goal of current U.S. anti-terrorism efforts.
Al-Qaida is being destroyed in Afghanistan, he said, and "now we have
to destroy it wherever it exists around the world." He said the United
States already is working with many governments, such as that of the
Philippines, towards that end. "[W]e have been very pleased at the
level of cooperation and response we have received from countries, now
that they see what al-Qaida is all about," he said
During the interview Powell also discussed the Israeli-Palestinian
conflict, the U.S. decision to withdraw from the Antiballistic Missile
Treaty, and Iraq.
Following is the State Department transcript of the interview:
(begin transcript)
U.S. Department of State
Office of the Spokesman
December 16, 2001
Secretary of State Colin L. Powell
Interview on Fox News Sunday with Tony Snow
Washington, DC
December 16, 2001
QUESTION: Now joining us to talk about America at war and the quest
for peace is Secretary of State Colin Powell. Secretary Powell, we
have heard reports first of al-Qaida being vanquished. To your
knowledge, is that true? Is that simply a preliminary report?
SECRETARY POWELL: It seems to be the case. I can't confirm it yet. We
will wait to hear from US intelligence sources and our people on the
ground as to whether that is the case. I am sure there are still some
remaining caves that have to be looked at and there will be some light
resistance left. But for the most part, it appears that we are well on
our way to success on this part of the campaign.
QUESTION: Now, you said in the past you think we are going to get bin
Laden. Do you still believe that?
SECRETARY POWELL: We will get bin Laden. Whether it's today, tomorrow,
a year from now, two years from now, the President has made it clear
that we will not rest until he is brought to justice or justice
brought to him.
The President has also made it clear from the beginning that we
shouldn't just see this in the form of get him right away and that
takes care of it. Our mission was to go after him, but really after
al-Qaida. Al-Qaida is being destroyed in Afghanistan, now we have to
destroy it wherever it exists around the world.
QUESTION: I want to get to that. But a couple more questions first
about bin Laden. Do we believe he is still in Afghanistan?
SECRETARY POWELL: We really don't know. There is some information that
suggests he might still be there and he might have gotten across the
border. We don't know. But you can be sure he is under hot pursuit.
QUESTION: The former head of the Pakistani intelligence service
actually was saying the other day that he thought the bin Laden video
might have been a fraud. Now, this is a man who, in the past, has been
supportive of the Taliban.
Do you still worry that there are remnants of the old intelligence
service in Pakistan that could be lending aid and shelter to bin
Laden?
SECRETARY POWELL: I wouldn't go that far. I am sure there are elements
of the intelligence service from the old days who might still have a
warm spot in their heart and head for Usama bin Laden. But I know that
President Musharraf doesn't and the leadership of Pakistan does not.
They have been solidly aligned with us in this campaign against bin
Laden. And, as Geraldo noted, they have been very forceful in
reinforcing their border with their military to keep him and al-Qaida
leaders from escaping into Pakistan.
QUESTION: We saw a tape the other day of bin Laden boasting about his
triumphs and even predicting widespread carnage during Ramadan. It
didn't happen. Do you think he's a coward?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes, he's a coward. Anybody who hides behind faith
to commit murder is a coward. And he goes after the innocent. He goes
after those who are defenseless. And he is evil, he is a murderer,
he's a coward, and now he is on the run.
QUESTION: Throughout the Arab world, there has been a lot of
discussion about the bin Laden video. Do you think the video enlarged
him as a figure or diminished him?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think over time it diminishes him. Because anybody
who watched that video, even if they might say, oh, it looks like, you
know, I still think there's something to it or it might have been a
fraud, when they get home late at night and they reflect on it in the
days that follow, they will have to come to the conclusion that they
really saw a murderer, they really saw somebody who was misusing this
wonderful faith called Islam.
QUESTION: A number of people have said that they would like to see bin
Laden tried before an international tribunal or even an American
criminal court. Do you think either of those is an appropriate forum?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think first things first. Let's get him in custody
of somebody and then we can decide how best to bring him to justice.
And I think at that time, we will determine what the best forum is to
put him before. But he has to be brought to justice, brought to
justice in a way that the whole world can see the evidence arrayed
against him and watch as the international community decides what to
do with him.
QUESTION: The international community, a war tribunal?
SECRETARY POWELL: I don't want to rule out anything or rule in
anything. There are lots of ways that you can deal with a bin Laden.
There have been international criminal tribunals. We have our military
tribunal that the President recently created. Though I would not
prejudge at this point what we might do with Mr. bin Laden if he were
brought in our custody.
QUESTION: Are you disappointed that they didn't get him today?
SECRETARY POWELL: Sure. But I would have like to have seen him gotten
a week ago or a month ago. The fact of the matter is we understand the
nature of the battle we're in. And he is elusive. He will try to stay
hidden. He will try to avoid us. But let there be no doubt in anyone's
mind that the President is determined, that however long it takes, as
he says to us almost every day, one day, one week, one month, two
years, we will get him. Let's be patient and just not give up.
QUESTION: Let's talk about the broader battle. Al-Qaida spread over
55, 60 nations. There have been reports, for instance, the US forces
are preparing to do some joint work with the Government of the
Philippines, with the aid and support of that government, correct?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, we are working with many governments to point
out to them where they could do a better job of going after al-Qaida
or calling to their attention information and intelligence facts we
have with respect to what's happening in their country. And we have
been very pleased at the level of cooperation and response we have
received from countries, now that they see what al-Qaida is all about.
And that is also the case with the Philippines. We have good
cooperation with the Philippines.
QUESTION: How many nations right now, like the Philippines, have
vested interest in getting rid of al-Qaida on their shores, because
they see it as a direct threat to their survival?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think every nation that has an al-Qaida cell
should see it as a direct threat to their sovereignty, to their
security and to their ability to participate in an international
community that is going to move forward and leave this kind of
terrorist activity behind. So it is in the interest of every single
country that might be touched by al-Qaida to rip it out, get rid of
it, because nothing good will come from harboring or providing a haven
to al-Qaida or other terrorist organizations.
QUESTION: Do you think al-Qaida can get rooted out by any other means
than simply going after them militarily, as we have done in
Afghanistan?
SECRETARY POWELL: There are many means. Sometimes it is military,
sometimes it is financial. What you have to do is make it an
inhospitable place for terrorists to operate, because your police are
watching them and taking action against them, because your
intelligence and law enforcement and financial communities are going
after them. They need a warm, wet place, if I could use a biological
term, a dark, warm, wet place in order to survive. And if you put the
light on them and if you dry up their sources and if you make it less
hospitable, then they will have to find somewhere else to go. And we
want to make sure there are fewer somewhere elses for them to go over
time.
QUESTION: There were a lot of predictions at the outset of this combat
that the Arab street would rise up in rage.
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, there have been some demonstrations and there
were some difficulties in the early days. But once people saw that we
were, one, serious about it, two, it was not anti-Islam or anti-Arab,
it was anti-terrorism, anti-murderer, and I think as more and more
people learned about the nature of the crimes that Usama bin Laden
committed, that rage, that potential rage was dissipated. So people
now understand what we were all about and when they also see us
committed to bringing in place a new government that will represent
all the people of Afghanistan and providing support to that
government, and making a commitment for humanitarian relief and the
rebuilding of Afghanistan, people are starting to come to the
realization that this was a noble cause.
QUESTION: Let me backtrack, just one more thing I want to get to with
bin Laden. Let's suppose he's gotten into Pakistan. Do we have
permission to go in and chase him?
SECRETARY POWELL: Well, Pakistan is a sovereign country, of course,
and we are in constant touch with the Pakistani authorities. They have
very competent troops. And I am sure that if information is passed to
them about where he is, they'd go after him. The last thing they want
to do is provide him with a safe haven. And if it is a situation of
hot pursuit, I am sure that we have in place mechanisms where we would
not have any difficulty cooperating with the Pakistanis in his
apprehension.
QUESTION: Well, as a matter of fact, we have forces based there at
this point?
SECRETARY POWELL: We have forces that are using facilities in
Pakistan.
QUESTION: Alright now, as we think about fighting the war on terror, a
lot of people think of the next step. Obviously, it is to go after
al-Qaida. But al-Qaida is not the only terrorist organization on the
planet, there are others. There are widespread reports that Iraq has
weapons of mass destruction. There is some controversy about that,
though.
Do we have absolute proof that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction?
SECRETARY POWELL: There is no question that he is trying to develop
weapons of mass destruction. Based on our success at the time of the
Gulf War, his conventional capability is less than half of what it
used to be, and he can't project that conventional power. But he has
continued to look for unconventional power.
We believe his nuclear capability has been capped, but he is still
trying to regenerate it, but it's years away. Chemical weapons, there
is no question that he has some remaining stock and he may be trying
to generate that again. And biological weapons are the greatest
concern to us, because he has always expressed an interest in that
kind of weapon. And it is easier to hide that kind of capability.
That is why it's important that we continue to press with the UN
inspectors getting back in on their terms to do the kind of inspection
they can do for as long as it takes to see whether or not he is
complying or not. Now, he won't let those inspectors back in? The
sanctions remain in place, the sanctions get tighter, and at the same
time the United States continues to pursue a policy that will
hopefully lead to regime change at some point.
QUESTION: So you don't think he represents a clear and present danger
to us right now?
SECRETARY POWELL: He is a danger to the region. I don't see his armies
marching anywhere. But anybody who has demonstrated previously his
willingness to use chemical weapons against his neighbors and his own
people has got to be seen as a potential danger to the region.
QUESTION: It is often said that in that region of the world, the way
you get respect is you be tough and you pay off on the things you say.
So for the United States now to keep the respect it has earned so far
in Afghanistan, we have to continue to pay off things we've talked
about. We've talked a lot about Saddam Hussein. Does it have to be a
goal of our policy to have, as you just said, a regime change?
SECRETARY POWELL: It is a goal. It is our policy. It has been our
policy for a number of years, at least three years, in a very explicit
sense, and it remains our policy now. How to achieve that goal and how
to pursue that policy is a matter of means. What means does one use
and what will actually work? And we are constantly doing ideas, plans,
concepts.
QUESTION: The Iraqi National Congress in the north, you've got Shi'a
groups in the south. Could they both form the kind of allies that we
have seen with the Northern Alliance and also the Eastern Alliance and
Pashtun tribes in Afghanistan?
SECRETARY POWELL: We are looking at that. It's quite a different
situation. I mean, it is much, much different and I think one has to
be careful before you take a cookie cutter from some other theater and
apply it to another theater.
But everything you have just suggested and other ideas are constantly
under review within the Administration.
QUESTION: And our allies sometimes say, well, we may not go along with
you. Even if allies don't go along with us and we decide that's a
proper course, we'll do it?
SECRETARY POWELL: The United States will do what it believes is
necessary and appropriate to defend its national security interests
and the interests of its friends and allies. It is better -- I always
think it is better if you can bring other people to the table, if you
can have a coalition cooperating as we did in Afghanistan and as we
did in the Gulf War. But the United States does not rule out acting in
its own interests unilaterally where that seems to be necessary.
QUESTION: Let's move to the Middle East. Anthony Zinni has been
recalled, you want to consult with him. Did Yasser Arafat break his
word in terms of trying to suppress violence in the West Bank and
Gaza?
SECRETARY POWELL: We have been pressing Mr. Arafat repeatedly, and I
have been doing it since this Administration came into office, to get
the violence down so that we can get back to a path to peace. We have
given him many opportunities. The Mitchell plan, when it was
announced, had a roadmap to peace discussions. George Tenet, our CIA
director, went out there and created a work plan to get to the
ceasefire. I went out there and tried to do the same thing.
And then last month, we gave a comprehensive statement of US policy.
The President at the United Nations General Assembly recognized the
need to have a vision that would lead to a Palestinian state. And he
called it "Palestine." A week later, in Louisville, Kentucky, I gave a
comprehensive speech that laid out what both sides had to do and the
aspirations of both sides. And both sides reacted positively to that
speech. They both created security committees.
We are going to work together. I sent General Zinni out as our envoy
to make this happen. We started to see some progress. What happened?
Hamas, a terrorist organization, started killing innocent civilians
with car bombs in Jerusalem and Haifa and elsewhere. And they attacked
this process, they attacked innocent Israelis. But even more
fundamentally and troubling, they attacked Yasser Arafat and his
authority to lead the Palestinian people toward a ceasefire and a
process of peace.
Arafat has to respond to this challenge, and so far he hasn't done
enough to respond to this challenge. And we have been saying to him
directly, you've got to do something about this or else we're not
going to go anywhere.
QUESTION: He has got a whole lot more troops than Hamas has.
SECRETARY POWELL: He has a large security force. It is an armed
security force. And this morning, he will be --
QUESTION: Should he use it?
SECRETARY POWELL: Yes. This morning, he will be making a statement on
how he sees the way forward. And I hope he will give a statement that
says, let's stop the Intifada, let's stop the violence, let's stop the
incitement and let's find a way to get back to a path to a ceasefire
so that we can get negotiations toward peace.
QUESTION: Dennis Ross, who used to be the envoy to the region, has a
piece in The Washington Post today. He says the United States ought to
push that along by delivering an ultimatum to Arafat, dealing with
Hamas and Islamic Jihad, saying you've got to shut these down, we give
you 96 hours. Is that a realistic timetable, four days?
SECRETARY POWELL: Four days? I am not going to comment on a particular
timetable. We have given that message to Mr. Arafat. I have given it
to him repeatedly, directly, me to him, over the last several weeks,
that he is being attacked and his authority is being destroyed by
Hamas and the PIJ, and he has got to respond to this and other kinds
of elements within the Palestinian community that are destroying the
vision of the Palestinian people to have their own state.
QUESTION: If Arafat does not respond, you have said he's relevant so
far. If he doesn't, does he become irrelevant?
SECRETARY POWELL: If he doesn't, he is not leading. Just as the
President said, I don't want to use the term "irrelevant" because it
is not for us to decide who the leader of the Palestinian people will
be. They have given to Yasser Arafat that leadership role and he is
the legitimate government of the Palestinian Authority. Now, as long
as he has that governmental role and as long as he is seen that way by
the Palestinian people, we will have to work with him and deal with
him.
QUESTION: So you have said that if he doesn't act -- you used the
phrase, "he needs to act or else." Is the "or else" --
SECRETARY POWELL: The "or else" is we continue in a state of violence
with both sides losing innocent civilians every single day and it
leads nowhere. It does not lead to a ceasefire, it does not lead to
negotiations on the basis of UN Resolutions 242 and 338 in order to
find a solution so that these two peoples can live together in this
land.
QUESTION: Now, there have been many cases where American officials
have talked to Yasser Arafat, many occasions where he has
disappointed. What is the consequence this time if there is not an end
to violence and provocation from Hamas and Islamic Jihad?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think the consequence for him is that he will
slowly lose authority within the region.
QUESTION: Well, what will we do?
SECRETARY POWELL: I am not going to tell you what we are going to do
before we decide what we're going to do. (Laughter.) But we will be
examining all of our options of how we deal with him.
But right now, I don't want to lose hope. The Zinni mission has not
failed; the parties have failed. And Zinni went to help them and they
were not -- they were not ready to be helped at this point.
So I brought General Zinni back for consultations. He remains our
envoy. He was always going to come back in December for consultations
and for -- he can't stay there forever without coming back
occasionally. And he will be ready to go back after our consultations
and when circumstances suggest that there is a real reason for him to
go back.
QUESTION: Final question. There has been a lot of -- well, two
questions. One, Otto Reich?
SECRETARY POWELL: Otto Reich is the President's nominee to be
Assistant Secretary of State for Western Hemispheric Affairs, North
and South America. And we stand by that nomination. The problem is we
cannot get him a hearing before the committee that confirms him, the
Senate Foreign Relations Committee, because Senator Dodd and other
members of the committee will not allow him to have a hearing. He is
qualified, he knows the region, he is a strong leader and he is the
President's nominee.
QUESTION: If the Senate goes into recess, would you suggest a recess
appointment?
SECRETARY POWELL: This is always an option. But at the moment, we have
not made a decision on that.
QUESTION: A lot of complaints about the ABM treaty. But we have pretty
much wired this thing, haven't we? I mean, the Russians, they say,
well, they're disappointed, it was a mistake, but they are not
terribly upset. The Chinese have issued a few things.
Have we pretty much wired this so that the people that a lot of folks
have said are going to be problems for us are not, in fact, going to
be problems?
SECRETARY POWELL: I think we took the time necessary to establish a
good relationship with the Russians. President Bush and President
Putin met four times in the first 11 months of this administration. I
have met 16 times with my foreign minister colleague, Igor Ivanov. Mr.
Rumsfeld has done the same thing. Condi has done the same thing.
So we created a relationship here and we kept telling them that we
would have to do this if we couldn't find a way around the constraints
of the ABM treaty, and we finally did have to do it and we notified
them. But we also did it in a way that we are cutting offensive
weapons at the same time. So, guess what, there's not going to be an
arms race. Sorry to disappoint those who have been predicting an arms
race. The Russians agreed with us last week that we are not going to
have an arms race.
And the other thing that people kept saying is when you do this, it's
going to fracture our relationship with the Russians and just make
things terrible. Guess what? Both we and the Russians see that we have
mutual interests that will keep us working closely together. As
President Putin said to me last Monday in Moscow when we were
discussing this, strategic cooperation with the United States is
important. We will come up with a new framework agreement. We disagree
with your decision on the ABM treaty. We think you're wrong, but this
is one less disagreement we will have in the future, because we have
put it behind us and we will continue to work together. So, no arms
race and no fracture of the relationship with Russia.
China, we have consulted with them closely. President Bush talked to
President Jiang Zemin. I brought in the ambassador the day before we
made the announcement. I spoke to my foreign minister colleague, Mr.
Tang, that evening, and they are also in disagreement over our
decision. They don't think we should have done it. They think it's
wrong. But I don't think we are going to see a crisis in US-Chinese
relations.
QUESTION: All right, Secretary of State Colin Powell, thanks for
joining us.
SECRETARY POWELL: Thank you, Tony.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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