02 December 2001
Transcript: Wolfowitz on Indonesian Television Nov. 28
(Despite success in Afghanistan, al Qaeda remains worldwide threat)
(4,130)
In a November 28 interview with Indonesian television, Deputy Defense
Secretary Paul Wolfowitz said that while the battle against terrorism
continues, the United States is already working to build a better
future for Afghanistan.
"We want to work with the Afghan people," he said, "and we're already
beginning this through the U.N. and Bonn to develop a framework for
post-Taliban Afghanistan that will provide some political stability
for that country and provide a framework in which we can bring
humanitarian aid, reconstruction aid, assistance in things like
education and medicine so that Afghanistan can make some real
progress. They deserve it after years of misery."
Wolfowitz pointed out that the al Qaeda terror network exists around
the world, and is a threat to nations everywhere, including Indonesia.
It is a difficult problem, he said, "but the answer is going to be
primarily very good intelligence work, very good police work, very
close cooperation among different countries.
Wolfowitz added, "I think one of the best things Indonesia can do is
to cooperate with your ASEAN neighbors in Malaysia and Singapore and
Thailand and the Philippines, all of whom I know are concerned about
terrorist penetrations in your part of the world."
He also urged Indonesia to take more vigorous steps to identify and
freeze financial accounts associated with terrorist activity. "We're
learning as we go how to identify the accounts that need to be frozen,
how to trace those accounts, and I would really urge the closest
cooperation between your Finance Ministry and our Treasury
Department."
To the common misperception that U.S. actions in Afghanistan are an
attack on a Muslim nation, Wolfowitz said, "Let's get something clear.
We did not attack a Muslim country. We did not attack Afghanistan. The
people who attacked Afghanistan were al Qaeda and the Taliban. And
just look at what the crowds are saying in Mazar-e Sharif, in Kabul,
in Herat, now in Kunduz, and pretty soon in Kandahar. In all the
cities in Afghanistan the people are cheering the departure of the
Taliban."
Noting his personal connection to Indonesia, Wolfowitz said, "You
know, I lived in Indonesia for three years. I know what Indonesian
Muslims are like, and their view of the religion is not at all this
medieval view that the Taliban tried to impose on the Afghan people."
(begin transcript)
DoD News:
Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz Interview with Indonesian Television
United States Department of Defense
NEWS TRANSCRIPT
Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz
Wednesday, Nov. 28,2001
Deputy Secretary Wolfowitz Interview with Indonesian Television
(Interview with Ms. Rosiana Silalahi of the Indonesian Television
network SCTV)
Silalahi: Mr. Wolfowitz, thank you so much for joining us. We
appreciate it very much.
Wolfowitz: You're very welcome. Good morning to you. I think it's
pretty early out there.
Silalahi: I believe that, first of all, that you believe your mission
to combat terrorism isn't over yet, even after the fall of Taliban
regime. But my question is, how long do you need, how long the time
until you pull out your troops from Afghan?
Wolfowitz: I think it's much too early to start making predictions
about that. There's a lot of work to be done. There are still some
very important pockets of where the Taliban continue to retain control
in Afghanistan. I think it's only a matter of time before those places
are free from their grasp as well. But we also have a lot of work to
do ourselves with our Afghan friends in hunting down the terrorists
who remain in Afghanistan and who remain dangerous.
But beyond that, we want to work with the Afghan people and we're
already beginning this through the U.N. and Bonn to develop a
framework for post-Taliban Afghanistan that will provide some
political stability for that country and provide a framework in which
we can bring humanitarian aid, reconstruction aid, assistance in
things like education and medicine so that Afghanistan can make some
real progress. They deserve it after years of misery.
Silalahi: So on the other way, you are not convinced yet that Taliban
regime or al Qaeda network still lost yet, and still could take over
the power sometime in the next horizon.
Wolfowitz: I'm convinced they've lost, but there's a difference
between losing and being completely eliminated and that's what we want
to achieve. We want to eliminate the terrorist networks, we want to
eliminate the Taliban leadership, and really though this is not a job
for the military and it's not a job just for the United States. The
international community has to work to help the Afghan people put
together something that will replace the Taliban with something that's
much better.
A point that I hope your listeners understand and in any case I'd like
to repeat it, that throughout Afghanistan the Afghan people have
greeted the departure of the Taliban as an act of liberation and it's
very clear that the Taliban leadership allowed a foreign terrorist to
hijack Afghanistan just the way the al Qaeda has tried to hijack your
religion and hijack airplanes. They also took a whole country and put
it into misery in order to advance their objectives. What we've seen
in the outcome of this campaign already with some three-quarters of
the country out of their control now, liberated, is that the people of
Afghanistan have really welcomed this result. This was never a war
against the Afghan people, it was a war against a rather evil
leadership that was doing great damage to that country.
Silalahi: So now you are (unintelligible) to Osama bin Laden dead or
alive.
Wolfowitz: When we say eliminate the al Qaeda leadership we mean more
than just Mr. bin Laden. Obviously he is the ultimate leader but there
are many other people in the leadership who are responsible for the
evil deeds that they've done over the last years and responsible for
September 11th. And frankly, we think that whole terrorist network in
Afghanistan is something that ought to be eliminated.
Silalahi: How convinced are you, sir, that Osama bin Laden and all the
citizens of the network still somewhere out there in Afghan, there in
the (unintelligible) or in the caves there, and they are not yet
walking out of the Afghan and coming to the other countries?
Wolfowitz: It's important to understand that while we have very good
intelligence it's very far from perfect and there's a lot that we
don't know, and in this case we're looking for someone who is clearly
doing his very best to try to hide from us. So people have to
understand we're not completely convinced about where he is.
Most of the information that we're getting, everything from
sophisticated intelligence to just street gossip and rumors suggest
that he's still somewhere in eastern Afghanistan. We continue to look
for him and we continue to chase down every rumor.
As I think you may know, there is a very substantial reward now, $25
million, for information -- up to $25 million for information leading
to his capture. So we have reason to believe that there are a lot of
people in Afghanistan who are looking for how they can get a piece of
that reward money.
So we have a lot of things working to try to get information about Mr.
bin Laden, but that doesn't mean that we know for sure where he is, it
doesn't mean we can be absolutely sure that he can't escape.
But I think one thing we can also be sure of is that any country that
harbored him would be making a terrible mistake and I think every
country in the world understands that now.
Silalahi: (unintelligible) Do you believe in that (unintelligible),
and how (unintelligible) those kinds of weapons that they have now?
Wolfowitz: We've heard the claims. The evidence to back up the claims
is in some cases rather weak, actually. On the other hand, we know
that biological weapons are a real possibility. We know that at least
one individual, maybe others in the United States are distributing a
very lethal biological agent in the form of anthrax. There are others
around.
This is obviously our highest priority, and when President Bush and
other members of our administration talk about the danger of state
support for terrorism, what they are particularly concerned about is
those states that are developing chemical and biological and nuclear
weapons and are also supporting terrorists because that makes a
particularly lethal, dangerous combination. But do we know, or do we
suspect today that al Qaeda has biological capability against the
United States? We really don't know. We just have to be on our guard.
Silalahi: Talking about al Qaeda network, sir, how strong do you think
their power, not just to put then in Afghan, but to put them together
in other places around the world? Do you think they are still in
power, and could you think like the attack of September 11th?
Wolfowitz: The simple answer is yes. We estimate that there are al
Qaeda cells in some 60 countries in the world, so including definitely
the United States and pretty definitely Indonesia. So when we
eliminate al Qaeda in Afghanistan we still have a lot of work to do.
And from the best we can figure out about the attacks of September
11th, the criminals who conducted that attack were all in the United
States well before September 1st. So as important as it is to
eliminate al Qaeda in Afghanistan, it's not going to eliminate the
ability of terrorists elsewhere to conduct those kinds of attacks.
But beyond that, and it is important I think for people to understand
this. I think the world was taught a lesson on September 11th about
how dangerous these networks are. Even the ones who's ambitions have
never yet been quite as horrible as al Qaeda.
I think over the last 20 years the world came to accept the fact that
there were these international terrorist networks and they weren't
very nice things to have around, but we didn't consider them high on
our list of priorities of problems. I think what September 11th was,
what we would say in American slang, was a wake-up call. It put us all
on notice that these groups have access to weapons including
improvised weapons like hijacked airplanes that can be devastating in
their consequences. I think we all have to worry about that.
Indonesia is a country that needs to think about that, particularly
because Indonesia is now a very free and open country in which people
can move around quite easily and organize things quite easily, and
most of that is a wonderful blessing of democracy. But as we learned
in the United States, there are criminals and terrorists who take
advantage of that, too, and it's something we both need to worry
about. Both our countries do.
Silalahi: You mentioned earlier that you find al Qaeda network also in
Indonesia. If so, how does the Indonesian government, our government
deal with these?
Wolfowitz: Bear in mind that it's a difficult problem. It's a
difficult problem here in the United States, it's a difficult problem
in any country. We don't have the magic answers. If we had the magic
answers, September 11th would have never happened. To this day, we
still don't feel that we have come close to cleaning up the terrorist
networks here in the United States.
But the answer is going to be primarily very good intelligence work,
very good police work, very close cooperation among different
countries.
I think one of the best things Indonesia can do is to cooperate with
your ASEAN neighbors in Malaysia and Singapore and Thailand and the
Philippines, all of whom I know are concerned about terrorist
penetrations in your part of the world. Cooperating with the United
States, sharing intelligence with us. Often in the intelligence world
when two people sit down each with part of the picture and they get
together they find they have more than just the two pieces added
together. They have a much clearer picture of the whole problem.
So all of those are things that need to be done. We are working hard
with your government and very interested in working even harder.
Silalahi: We also got information that several bank accounts from al
Qaeda network is in our bank, the national bank here. We also heard
that you asking us for close them down but we haven't done it yet. Are
you disappointed?
Wolfowitz: I'm glad you brought up that because clearly going after
the financial networks is a significant part of how you go after these
terrorists. There are two aspects to it. One is to freeze those
accounts so that the terrorists can't use the money, but also to use
the information that you get from tracing those accounts to figure out
which people are part of those networks.
We have made requests to your government, and I have to admit that
Indonesia, like a number of countries including in some parts of the
United States, this is still an area where bankers are kind of
reluctant to do what needs to be done. But I think the bankers too
have got to understand that September 11th was a wakeup call and that
certain compromises with what was traditional standards of banking
secrecy just cannot be extended to people who exploit those rules in
order to blow up the World Trade Center or blow up the Pentagon or
maybe the people who blew up the Jakarta Stock Exchange. You've had
your plague of terrorists also. And I think going after the things
that fund them and using their bank accounts to trace who they are and
where they are and cooperating with other countries and following
those leads wherever they lead is a very important thing to do.
So I hope that Indonesia can move from this relatively (inaudible)
response to a much more vigorous one.
Silalahi: If we still have not done it yet, how would you react? How
would you respond to this?
Wolfowitz: This is something that it really takes experts to work out
all the details. Our people, our experts are in our Department of the
Treasury, and I assume the experts in Indonesia are in your Finance
Ministry and in the Bank of Indonesia. We're, to be honest, learning
as we go how to identify the accounts that need to be frozen, how to
trace those accounts, and I would really urge the closest cooperation
between your Finance Ministry and our Treasury Department, and I think
it's something that experts can judge much better than we can talking
here.
Silalahi: Mr. Paul Wolfowitz, I believe that you are the one who knows
much better about Indonesia from long (unintelligible) in the Cabinet.
The attack from United States to Afghan (unintelligible) impression
among most of the community here. So how do you respond to this issue?
How do you respond to those who ask if we're ending diplomacy with you
since you have attacked Muslim country in Afghan?
Wolfowitz: Let's get something clear. We did not attack a Muslim
country. We did not attack Afghanistan. The people who attacked
Afghanistan were al Qaeda and the Taliban. And just look at what the
crowds are saying in Mazar-e Sharif, in Kabul, in Herat, now in
Kunduz, and pretty soon in Kandahar. In all the cities in Afghanistan
the people are cheering the departure of the Taliban.
This was not an attack on Afghanistan. It was in fact an act of
liberation for Afghanistan. I would urge Indonesians to look at what
the Afghan people themselves are saying and think about what that
means, and look at those horrible pictures of women being executed
because they laughed in public or they wore white shoes, and the
spectacle of people saying the Muslim religion requires that women
cover themselves with a burka.
You know I lived in Indonesia for three years. I know what Indonesian
Muslims are like, and their view of the religion is not at all this
medieval view that the Taliban tried to impose on the Afghan people.
So to be very honest, it would be very helpful for Indonesia and for
American understanding of Indonesia if Indonesian Muslims would speak
up and say this is what Islam is about. It's the way it's practiced in
Indonesia. What the Taliban did in Afghanistan is a travesty, it's
extremism, it's not our religion. I think it will be good for
Indonesia if more voices are heard in this country saying that kind of
thing. Frankly, it would be good for the Muslim world as a whole.
The president of the United States has been very public and said
repeatedly, over and over again, we have no quarrel with Islam. We
have no quarrel with Muslims. We have a quarrel with terrorists, some
of whom happen to be Muslims and claim that they are acting out of
religious motives. But the president of the United States and every
member of his cabinet has said over and over again that we have no
fight with Muslims.
If you look at the way the American people have reacted after this
event, I think by any standard it has been remarkably careful in the
treatment of our own Muslim population. We have millions of Muslims
here, including immigrants from the Arab world and they've been
treated very well, even after September 11th. What we need to hear
more of is not the president of the United States saying this is not
Muslims, we need to hear more Muslims saying this is not a Muslim act,
this was an act of terror and more denunciation of Osama bin Laden and
the al Qaeda coming from Muslim voices.
I have hundreds, I'd say maybe even a few thousand Indonesian Muslim
friends and I know what they think of terrorism and I can be sure of
what they think about the attack on the World Trade Center. But we're
not hearing enough of those views here in the United States. I don't
know if it's because our press isn't reporting it or your people
aren't saying it, but it would be helpful to hear much more of that
kind of thing.
And I have to go back to your question. When I hear Indonesians talk
about our attack on Afghanistan, those are the wrong words. We did not
attack Afghanistan. Al Qaeda and the Taliban attacked us, misusing
Afghanistan as a base. What we have done, I believe, in our own self
defense has also been a great service to the Afghan people.
Silalahi: Mr. Wolfowitz, the following question is that the negative
impression (unintelligible) to the war in Afghan, but it's also caused
by the way you, your foreign diplomacy in Middle East peace process
there. The United States is accused of defending Israelis more rather
than Palestine. Could you explain how this case will be changed sooner
or later, I mean the diplomacy in United States, in dealing with the
Middle East and become more neutral in talking with Palestine and
Israel.
Wolfowitz: Look -- I'm sorry -- our diplomacy has been exercised more
vigorously in support of promoting a peace between the Israelis and
the Palestinians than any country in the world, and I think if it
weren't for American diplomatic efforts Israel would still be
occupying the Sinai; Israel would still be at war with Jordan; there
would be no Palestinian authority in the West Bank and Gaza. We have
made some progress. The last year or year and a half things have
slipped backwards. It's not because the United States hasn't been
trying. We are trying very hard and we continue to try.
The key to moving forward is to bring at least a ceasefire, not an end
to the violence but at least a pause in the violence. Then we have
laid out very clearly through Senator Mitchell's report of a year ago,
and in Secretary Powell's speech just a few days ago, what we think is
the way ahead. We think the way ahead is a Palestinian state and a
Jewish state in the territory that used to be the old British Mandate.
We think frankly that the lines of an agreement are sufficiently close
that it is tragic that the two parties can't come to some kind of
agreement. The United States is working very hard to get there and we
will continue working very hard. There's no question that there's a
lot, the whole region would benefit from peace between the Israelis
and Palestinians.
Silalahi: Mr. Paul Wolfowitz, before I let you go, what about our
(unintelligible) there, (unintelligible) the one who is allegedly
linked to the September 11th issue?
Wolfowitz: Actually all I know about that case is, to be honest, what
I've read in the newspapers. But the truth is as an American official
I'm not supposed to comment on cases that are before our courts. It's,
to be honest, part of what we consider fair, due process. You don't
have public officials judging someone's guilt or innocence outside of
the court system. So I really can't comment on that case and I don't
know any more than what your own readers know from the newspapers.
Silalahi: Right. Mr. Wolfowitz I would like to also raise the
question, if you find any terrorist network in other countries like
Indonesia, Iraq, would you extend the battlefield out there?
Wolfowitz: As I said, there are other terrorist groups, just al Qaeda
alone there are terrorist networks in some 59 countries outside of
Afghanistan including the United States. So to think that we're going
to go to war with 59 countries including ourselves is of course silly.
What we want to do is, different countries, we work differently. There
are countries that are clearly opposed to terrorism and will work with
us to cooperate in rooting out the terrorists, and Indonesia is
clearly in that category. There are countries that used to support
terrorists and they're having second thoughts about it because they
realize it's a very dangerous business to be in and they've seen what
happened to the Taliban. And at the end of the day there may be some
other countries as stupid as the Taliban who say we're going to
continue supporting terrorism no matter what the world thinks, no
matter what the United States thinks, but we've made it clear what we
think about that kind of behavior, so it can't be tolerated.
But the more we can solve this problem through diplomacy, through
politics, through international pressure the better we will be.
Indeed, we tried for three years to get the Taliban to get rid of al
Qaeda. We had U.N. resolutions, we did everything. And even after
September 11th, President Bush gave the Taliban one last chance to
change their ways, and they may be wishing now that they took it, but
they missed it.
Silalahi: Last question, sir. Talking about the fact September 11th,
war in Afghan, and then the possible (unintelligible) from the al
Qaeda network. What could you, immediate danger, be happening in the
next horizon or in the short term?
Wolfowitz: I wish I knew. If I were that kind of prophet I guess we
would have been able to prevent September 11th. These people are in an
evil way remarkably clever. They come up with ways of killing people
that we never thought of before. So I can't sit here and predict.
We are trying to anticipate every way they might attack us or attack
our friends. We are on guard against things that we didn't even think
about being on guard against a few months ago. You've probably read
about the new, extraordinary procedures we have to make sure that
hijackers don't get on airplanes here. So hopefully we've closed off a
lot of the possibilities, but there may be a surprise out there
waiting and we have to therefore constantly be on our toes, constantly
thinking. Ultimately the best defense, as the like to say in my
country, the best defense is a good offense. The best way to defend
ourselves is to get rid of these networks, to get rid of these
criminals, and then maybe we can live a more normal life everywhere.
Silalahi: Sir, thank you very much for joining us. Thank you very
much.
Wolfowitz: Thank you.
(end transcript)
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