05 November 2001
Transcript: Top General Says Anti-Terrorism War Targets al-Qaida, Taliban
(Interview of Chairman of Joint Chiefs of Staff Meyers with Al
Jazeera) (5510)
Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard Meyers said the U.S.
military campaign against al-Qaida and the Taliban in Afghanistan is
progressing as expected and with success.
In an interview October 31 with Al Jazeera television, Meyers said the
Taliban air defenses have been destroyed, enabling the warplanes of
the international coalition to fly freely over the country. He said
the coalition forces are supporting the Afghan opposition groups, such
as the Northern Alliance, in their fight against the Taliban.
Following are other key points Meyers made in the interview:
-- The international community is working on developing an appropriate
structure for governing Afghanistan after the Taliban.
-- The targets of the anti-terrorism campaign are al-Qaida and the
Taliban, which harbors them. Al Qaida is active in more than 60
countries, so the anti-terrorism campaign will be long.
-- The military operations in Afghanistan will end when there is no
more support for al Qaida and the leadership of al Qaida has been
eliminated or captured.
-- The military operations will continue despite the start of the
Muslim holy month of Ramadan in mid-November, but the coalition forces
will be "as culturally sensitive" as possible.
-- Civilian casualties are a "terrible tragedy," and the coalition
forces are doing everything possible to avoid them. Meyers urged the
Al Jazeera reporters to be skeptical of the Taliban claims of civilian
casualties because the Taliban have been known to lie and exaggerate.
He said coalition forces have missed five or six targets and he
believes the true number of civilian casualties is "very, very low."
-- The war against terrorism involves more than military action; it is
being prosecuted through law enforcement, financial and diplomatic
channels.
Following is the transcript of Meyers' interview with Al Jazeera:
(begin transcript)
General Richard B. Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
Mr. Al-Mirazi, Interviewer Al Jazeera Television Wednesday, October
31, 2001
Al Jazeera: ...General Myers, thank you for being with us and giving
that much valuable time to be with our audience also in the Arab
world.
General Myers: Thank you for the opportunity.
Al Jazeera: Let me start after the 25 days of the start of the
military action. How do you see the progress so far? Or is there
anything tangible that you can tell people about?
General Myers: As you know, this is a war on terrorism and those that
support terrorists. We think that the plan is progressing pretty much
like we expected it to, and I would say so far we have been successful
in our aims. The first part of the effort was against Taliban air
defenses, and we have degraded those or destroyed those to the point
now we can fly freely over the country and we're turning now our
support to opposition forces and enabling their fight against the
Taliban.
Al Jazeera: After four or five days of the military operations we
heard about now we have the sky for us and we can do it all over any
time of the day. Why did it take much time after that and until now we
are not talking about any ground troops?
General Myers: I'm not sure I understand your question. But for the
first part, remember this is a war against terrorists and those who
support them. Part of it was to degrade the fairly substantial
terrorist training infrastructure inside Afghanistan, so we worked on
targets such as those. We also worked on some Taliban command and
control facilities, and then we started to turn our attention more and
more to the opposition groups. And it just takes time to get the right
kind of liaison in place who want to free Afghanistan from the
Taliban.
Al Jazeera: Has the objective been changed or changed during that
military action like we started with al Qaeda mainly. Are we now after
Taliban and the fall down of their government, the main objective?
General Myers: No, the objectives have not changed. Still the
objective is the al Qaeda organization, because we know that they were
behind the September 11th tragedies that occurred in New York City and
here in Washington, D.C. So we've never wavered from that objective.
The Taliban is also an objective because they're the ones that harbor
al Qaeda in Afghanistan. So the objectives have not changed.
Al Jazeera: So the minute they stop harboring or they stop supporting
al Qaeda you could save them from any more bombing or fighting? Or it
is too late now?
General Myers: That would be a political decision. I think the
President has offered on a couple of occasions the opportunity for the
Taliban to hand over al Qaeda operatives and senior personnel. The
Taliban has not seen fit to do that. They have continued to fight. And
I don't want to go into the hypothetical world because it's really
more of a political question, not one for a military man.
Al Jazeera: We hear from the Northern Alliance about the beginning of
the military actions before it was announced here in Washington, and
now we hear from the Northern Alliance that they are ready in few days
to move on to Kabul. How accurate is that assessment?
General Myers: I don't know how accurate that assessment is. That will
be up to the Northern Alliance and their leadership. We are going to
try to help as we can, support their objectives, but any discussion of
how fast they can move and where they're going to move I think are
tactical decisions that will be made in the field and I don't want to
speculate on how quickly they might do something like that.
Al Jazeera: But you are willing to help them moving into Kabul and
getting into Kabul?
General Myers: We are willing to help the Northern Alliance with their
objective of defeating their Taliban adversaries and I think for that
matter, I think most of the Afghan people are as well because the
Taliban has been such an oppressive regime in Afghanistan.
To talk about Kabul and whether or not that should fall into other
people's hands or not, I'd rather not speculate.
What I would say, though, as you know the international community is
working at a fairly good pace to determine what would be an
appropriate post-Taliban Afghanistan structure for governing the
country, and that is something that I think we all look forward to and
it's a way to take Afghanistan and bring them into the 21st Century.
Al Jazeera: Are you considering introducing or using Turkish troops in
that process?
General Myers: I think in that process they are looking at, they will
probably need contributions from many, many countries. Turkey has been
mentioned. Beyond that, I don't know what Turkey's view of this is so
I'd let them speak for themselves. I've just heard them mentioned, but
many countries have been mentioned in that regard.
Al Jazeera: What kind of presence, at least it's been confirmed
yesterday by the Pentagon that there are U.S. ground troops in
Afghanistan. Could you shed some more light on that presence?
General Myers: I can't shed much more than has already been said, but
for several days now we've had U.S. troops on the ground with the
Northern Alliance, and as liaison to the Northern Alliance. Their
primary mission is to advise, to try to support the Northern Alliance
with airstrikes as appropriate. They are specially trained individuals
that know how to bring in air power and bring it into the conflict in
the right way, and that's what they're doing. We think that will have
a big impact on the Northern Alliance's ability to prosecute their
piece of this war against the Taliban.
Al Jazeera: According to the plan, when could you declare victory? The
fall down of Kabul would be the watershed?
General Myers: Actually I don't think the fall of Kabul would be the
watershed. I think we have to go back to our objectives, and that is
to eliminate or degrade al Qaeda to the point where it cannot
effectively prosecute international terrorism as it did on September
11th. And there are other... As you know al Qaeda is in over 60
countries, including people right here in the United States of
America. So this is a wide conflict global in scale. Al Qaeda is not
the only international terrorist organization that wishes to do
freedom-loving people harm. So no matter who has Kabul that's not the
real issue. The real issue is the leadership of al Qaeda and its the
people that support them and taking away that support.
By the way, just to add onto that, this is not just a military action,
which taking Kabul would be mostly perhaps a military operation. There
are other operations that we have ongoing, and I say we in a very
broad context. We mean all our partner nations. There are 80 to 100 to
more than that that have joined in this partnership against worldwide
terrorism. So there will be other aspects besides the military aspect.
There will be the financial aspect. There is the criminal aspect of
this. There is a commerce aspect to this. So there's a diplomatic
aspect to it, and all of those will be brought to bear on this war on
terrorism.
So just one faction or other in Afghanistan taking Kabul will not end
this conflict.
Al Jazeera: The reason I am asking about Kabul and I am focusing on
the military issue, of course, with you because I am not going to ask
political questions or...
General Myers: I appreciate that, by the way.
Al Jazeera: ...financial questions. And I am talking about the
military actions that started October 7th. When would end? Of course
you're not going to end it when you finish al Qaeda in the U.S. or
Britain or any other place. Is there an objective that people would
look for and then when it's achieved we would know that that night or
that day President Bush would come out and say we finished that
military action in Afghanistan?
General Myers: I think one of the points would be when there is no
more support for al Qaeda in Afghanistan. That would be one of the
measures of merit. The other would be, have we eliminated or captured
or whatever the al Qaeda leadership that we know is Afghanistan that
is still in Afghanistan? So there are really two parts of it. It's the
leadership and it's those, a government or a regime that supports
them.
Al Jazeera: Given the fact that the Soviets captured or controlled
most of these cities, yet they couldn't end the war on Afghanistan and
they lost it and it took them years because of the villages, the
amount in them, the caves. Are you willing to stay for years as the
Soviets did in Afghanistan?
General Myers: I think we've said, and the President said, that in the
broadest of contexts that the partner nations are willing to stay at
this war on terrorism for however long it takes. I personally think
that will be years. Whether that's years in Afghanistan or not, I
don't know yet. Certainly it's going to be more than the 25 days that
we've currently been engaged there.
We've got to go back to remember our objectives to eliminate the al
Qaeda leadership and those that support them. So however long that
takes.
I think there's a big difference between the current conflict in
Afghanistan and what was the Soviet Union activity in Afghanistan.
Many, many of the Afghans want the current regime, the Taliban, out of
there. They have been repressed by this very terrible regime for a
long time. In fact as we try to help with the food distribution we
know the Taliban interrupts that. They tax the food to the people or
they use it for other purposes, to bring power to themselves. I think
they're ready for a change. So I think there are some big differences
between the Soviet Union and what they experience and what we'll
experience in Afghanistan.
Al Jazeera: If it's going to continue after 25 days, is going to take
much time and you are willing to give it that time, how about Ramadan?
Do you consider a break, a halt during that time?
General Myers: I would just remind people that this is a war on
terrorism. If we go back to the events of 11 September of this year
when innocent people were intentionally targeted -- people of all
races, of all colors, of all religions died, innocents. They were not
engaged in any war that they knew of. If we understand that that's
what we're at war against -- we're at war against terrorism, the fact
that we're coming up on Ramadan, this war will have to continue.
We're doing this to defend ourselves, and this is all of us and all
freedom-loving people and all our partners. This is an effort and an
issue of defense. We did not choose to do this. The folks that
attacked the World Trade Center and attacked the Pentagon were the
ones that chose this conflict. We will try to be as culturally
sensitive as we can, but at the same time given that we don't know if
the terrorists are going to take any pause during any particular time
of year, in fact most likely they will not -- they have not in the
past -- we should consider that we'll continue this war on terrorism
through Ramadan.
Al Jazeera: If they announced a truce from their side, a unilateral
commitment not to do anything with the beginning of Ramadan, would you
be willing to do the same or not?
General Myers: That would be a political decision and I would not like
to speculate on that. But it's certainly in the political sphere. Al
Jazeera: And you consider it also a political decision that the
consequences of continuing through Ramadan with your troops in
Pakistan where people would be outraged or other places in the Muslim
and Arab world, of course you know that President Mubarak and others
called for this kind of a truce.
General Myers: Right. And I would just say that we are, I think, very
culturally sensitive. We go to the leaders at the political level and
at the military level, and ask for their advice. So actions we will
take I think will be consistent with that advice. But we're not
unaware and we're not insensitive. These are important issues.
Al Jazeera: Speaking of the threat of al Qaeda and people that could
be in the U.S. or any other places in the world. Now we are in one of
the highest status of alert in the U.S. because of potential, God
forbid, terrorist attack, another terrorist attack. Do you have any
idea about the nature of that attack? Or that threat at least.
General Myers: No. That's one of the frustrations is no. One of the
frustrations of living in a free and open society as we do means that
somebody that is willing to kill innocents intentionally and terrorize
the population can do so in many, many ways. So we do not have the
specifics of what kind of attack there might be. All we have is
indications that we should be on heightened alert at this time.
Al Jazeera: So the orders of 10 mile no-fly zone around nuclear
plants, that does not in any way indicate that that could be a nuclear
attack or any type of...
General Myers: No, it really doesn't. We look at our most critical
infrastructure and we plan to defend that appropriately.
Clearly on 11 September the terrorists, al Qaeda, passed a threshold
of the use of weapons of mass destruction. They killed over 5,000
people. And again I'd just point out, they were all innocents. But
they intentionally killed over 5,000 people. So we have to be prepared
for an attack that could introduce mass casualties, and that's exactly
what we're trying to do is figure out what is that infrastructure that
might do that. But no, it does not indicate that we have any specific
intelligence that nuclear power plants are the target.
Al Jazeera: The weapons of mass destruction has been, some countries
have been accused of developing it or acquiring it. Iraq usually
mentioned from U.S. officials or the U.S. media. Would that be
considered the next target in the war against terrorism?
General Myers: I'm not going speculate on the next target against the
war on terrorism, but when we talk about our goals in that war,
terrorist organizations, those that support them, and weapons of mass
destruction that could possibly fall in the hands of terrorists, I
think all those are legitimate targets for this defensive war on
terrorism, trying to prevent future acts from occurring.
Al Jazeera: How much cooperation, military wise, do you get from Arab
countries, especially in the Gulf in that war?
General Myers: I think we're getting tremendous cooperation. As you
may know, General Tom Franks, the U.S. Central Command commander who
is responsible for prosecuting the war that is currently focused in
Afghanistan has just been through the region. His reports are very,
very encouraging. We are getting good support. It varies from country
to country, what kind of support and so forth, but we get very, very
good support. And not just in the Gulf but from around the world.
Al Jazeera: He was in Egypt for the Bright Star maneuvers also.
General Myers: Right.
Al Jazeera: Has the majority of the troops in the Bright Star moved to
the area or just disbursed...
General Myers: I think... I have to think about that for just a
second. I think the exercise is about over now. I think the end of
this month it's supposed to be over. The majority of the troops
involved there I believe are going to return to home station, but that
is a bit of a moving target as we decide what we need in the region.
Al Jazeera: The U.S. presence in the Gulf created tensions, bin Laden
at least is one of the people who is using it as a pretext or to
legitimatize whatever illegitimate actions that were taken against
innocent people. Are we doing the same or creating the same potential
problems in Central Asia by mobilizing too much U.S. military force in
Central Asia for this war, or to stay for a long time?
General Myers: I think we need to go back to our presence in the Gulf
in the first place was at the invitation of the countries that, where
we were stationed, and it was in support of UN resolutions currently
that are, have us doing certain actions vis-a-vis Iraq.
Certainly the last thing we would want to do is to destabilize any
particular region. We will be very sensitive to that, I think. At the
same time, we can't forget why we're about this war. This is a very
serious matter of defending freedom-loving people from around the
world from the threat of terrorism, and we saw on September 11th
exactly what that could be and what tragedies could come from that
threat. So we're committed, we're resolute, we'll try to be as
sensitive as we can to work through some of these issues and we do on
a daily basis. But we're going to prosecute this war until we achieve
our objectives.
Al Jazeera: You are not worried about U.S. presence in Central Asia or
in the Gulf as long as it serves the political reasons or political
objectives?
General Myers: I think we'll again, try to be very sensitive to
concerns, we'll try to accommodate concerns where we will, but the
primary thing, and I think all countries, even those that sometimes
have some trouble with presence and some potential instability in
their own countries understand that if we don't defeat terrorism, if
we can't eliminate or severely degrade the threat then we're all at
risk. Everybody who loves freedom, everybody who wants to walk down
the street without being killed, that we've got to prosecute this war
and we've got to see it through.
Al Jazeera: Some people consider that (unintelligible) creates more
terrorists other than counter terrorism.
General Myers: That's an interesting point. I'd say let's take
Afghanistan for instance. It's hard for me to believe that a regime
other than the Taliban wouldn't be a much more, a regime much more
conducive to people being freedom loving people and not raising their
children in hate. Being able to educate women and taking care of
children as we should seems to me to be making an addition to society
that is one we would want as opposed to the oppressive and ruthless
regime of the Taliban.
Al Jazeera: General Myers, after September 11th are you considering or
reviewing training of Arab Muslim pilots in the U.S. armed forces with
the joint or mutual exchange of training exchange as it has happened
before in the past?
General Myers: I can't answer you specifically, but I'll give you a
philosophical answer.
I have, obviously, many Arab friends. We will not change anything that
we're doing fundamentally. Reviews probably will be required but we're
going to continue operating like this country operates and like most
free countries operate, and that is very tolerant of any religion. S
kin color, race is not important. What's important is what you
contribute as an individual. So I don't think where people come from
or what cultural or ethnic background will make any difference at all.
Al Jazeera: Speaking of that diversity in the American Society, we see
it in the armed forces. Let's talk about Muslims in the armed forces.
Could you give us an idea about how many and what kind of
participation do they have or some of them have in the war in
Afghanistan?
General Myers: The population, I think, the numbers are hard to come
by because some join as Muslims and some convert once they're on
active duty.
The first thing you can say is they're all volunteers in the United
States because we're an all-volunteer armed forces. So you have to ask
to come in. You have to request to come in.
The second thing we know is that when we take our oath we all affirm
that we're going to support and defend our Constitution against all
enemies, foreign and domestic. So we know that everybody that comes in
has to go through that oath. It's a very simple oath, but it's one
that shows what the country's going to ask of them and what they're
willing to stand up for.
I think we have somewhere, the numbers vary again, but somewhere
between four and ten thousand, it could be up to fifteen thousand
Muslims in the armed forces. We also know they can be in any unit. We
do not segregate any religion out. Every religion is entitled... I
don't know specifically how many Muslims we have forward deployed, and
that might be perhaps involved directly in the conflict in
Afghanistan. I can tell you that the American Muslim Council, which is
not just Americans. I understand it's made up of Muslims from all over
the world, have said that to defend innocents as we're trying to do
with this war on terrorism, to defend innocents is a just war
according to Islam, and they are allowed to participate in that war.
Al Jazeera: Innocents are also killed in Afghanistan, civilians.
Civilian casualties. And so many footages that Al Jazeera put out from
there, and I don't think that anyone questions the authenticity so far
of the footage that we are playing, shows the civilian casualties. How
do you explain that?
General Myers: First of all, when I think of civilian casualties I
think back to September 11th when we had over 5,000 intentionally
targeted civilians. Intentionally...
Al Jazeera: So an eye for an eye?
General Myers: No, it's not that at all. It's to defend so that never
happens again, to defend so it doesn't happen again, so it's not an
eye for an eye. That's the last thing we want to do.
War is the last means to achieve an end I think in everybody's
opinion, certainly in anybody that wears the uniform, that would be
our opinion. War is not the first option that you come to. So after
you've tried diplomatic or economic or other instruments of national
power, when it comes down to war we know we're in a situation that is
a terrible situation. And in war there are usually many casualties. In
world history we know we can lose millions of people.
Having said that, we also know that we're going to have some
unintended casualties and those will be innocents on the other side.
We plan very carefully, we have relatively sophisticated weapons that
minimize civilian casualties, but in war we're going to have some. And
we understand that. We regret that. It is a terrible tragedy, but I
think it's the price that has to be paid to ensure that the world does
not have any more 11 Septembers or events like that.
Al Jazeera: If you feel that Taliban is using people as human shields
or civilians, will you still continue to deprive them from that tactic
and to kill or target human shields?
General Myers: I think that would be on a case-by-case basis. We will
not intentionally attack civilians, even though we know that the
Taliban do use women and children as shields. We know that they park
their equipment next to religious structures. We're aware of that and
we will take great care, of course, not to let the war spill over onto
innocents the best we can.
To go back to your earlier point on the footage of some of the
casualties. Establishing ground truth in Afghanistan is very, very
difficult. Every time there is an alleged incident of civilian
casualties we go back and very carefully look to see what ground truth
is. We know the Taliban have lied and exaggerated those casualties. We
think they are very, very low.
We regret every one of them because, again, they're the innocent
bystanders.
Al Jazeera: One of the officials just said a day or two ago that we
don't have a warehouse of civilian casualties that we bring them every
day. These are pictures that speak for themselves.
General Myers: Well, we all know, even though it's the business you're
in, that pictures aren't always truth. And you can be deceived. We
don't know if that was an errant bomb or was that some fighting
between the Taliban and their adversaries, the Northern Alliance or
Pushtan tribes? So it's never easy to say. I mean you can show
somebody that's been injured but you can't say why they were injured.
It's always very, very difficult.
Al Jazeera: People could say that about...
Al Jazeera: So if what they put out there might not be the truth or
the places that they allow the camera to be in might not have
presented the whole picture could we say the same also about the
Pentagon? That the kind of pictures or footage that you allow us to
release is also tailored in order to serve what you say?
General Myers: Well I'd say no. We're not in the propaganda business.
And as you know well, at least in this country, our media have good
noses for that. They work that issue very, very hard. It's one of the
great things about living in a democracy. You have many checks and
balances. We don't have a propaganda machine. We have the U.S. media.
They're free to go and travel where they want. We have facilitated
them going to some of our military operations to talk to our people.
They have some people inside Afghanistan and are reporting from there.
Al Jazeera: Have they given you any rough estimate of civilian
casualties so far?
General Myers: No. We do not have a rough estimate. My guess is that
it's very, very low.
Al Jazeera: In the tens, in the hundreds?
General Myers: I don't know. I just can't give you a good number.
Again, establishing ground truth has been very, very difficult. We
know when we hear of alleged incidents we'll go out and look at it and
if there are not bomb craters in places where they say you've bombed
people, if you see no evidence of damage, then you have to say that is
somebody's imagination. That is not the truth.
Al Jazeera: After 25 days of the military actions, roughly how many
missing targets that you can admit or have been admitted officially
over there for civilian...
General Myers: I don't know if we've totaled those up, but if my
memory serves me right it would be a handful. It would be five or six.
Five or six targets that we admit. And that's another good point I
think you bring up. If we do have a bomb that is off target for
whatever reason, then we admit that. We'll be the first ones to say
yes, we d
id that. And we're very sorry for that.
Al Jazeera: I think we are almost covering most of it. If I would just
conclude, I have just a follow up on something, General Myers, you
mentioned about when we talk about the Pentagon releases footage we're
not talking about propaganda. But we're talking about (unintelligible)
of the past in the Gulf War, 1991, we were talking about smart weapons
and accurate targeting, and later on other studies showed that the
targeting was not that accurate as it was actually broadcast or
announced at the time of the '91 Gulf War.
General Myers: Well, one thing we know about any weapon system is that
it's not 100 percent effective and there is no perfect weapon. We just
can't afford perfect weapons.
We also know that during the Gulf War that it was only about 10
percent of the weapons used in the Gulf War were precision, what we
call precision or highly accurate weapons. In this conflict that
number will be much, much higher, therefore lessening the chance of
what we call collateral damage or damage unintended and not related to
the target.
I think we've done, the United States has done a very good job, it's
something that we plan, that we work, and that we try to execute in a
way that minimizes any damage. That even means sometimes putting our
own pilots at risk for delivery profile perhaps, a delivery run-in
heading that might put them more at risk but it might save unintended
damage. We'll do that.
Al Jazeera: My last question is, have you, do you have any knowledge
that the U.S. military used in the war in Afghanistan any weapons that
could be considered controversial or forbidden internationally?
Cluster, concussion, chemical?
General Myers: Absolutely not. We will not use any illegal weapons in
Afghanistan. We don't have chemical weapons that are in our inventory.
So this is... No.
Al Jazeera: Cluster weapons?
General Myers: We used some cluster weapons, but my understanding is
they are not illegal.
Al Jazeera: Concussion?
General Myers: I don't know what you mean by concussion.
Al Jazeera: I mean gas bombs or...
General Myers: If we used any of those they will all be in accordance
with what is international norms.
Al Jazeera: Any concluding remarks?
General Myers: Well, the only concluding remarks, I thank you for the
opportunity for this interview to remind people that might be watching
that this is a war on terrorism. That on September 11th the United
States was directly attacked, that innocent people -- men, women,
children, many religions, many nationalities -- lost their lives due
to an intentional attack on them. And this is a war on that terrorism.
It's broader in scope than Afghanistan. It's broader than just
military action. What we're seeing right now of course is the visible
part and that's the military action. What you don't see are the
invisible actions that are taking place, be they in criminal channels
or in financial channels or in diplomatic channels or in information
channels, to try to thwart this war on terrorism.
And I think if anybody takes a hard look at how they want their
children to grow up, I think they want them to be able to grow up in a
world that is free from terrorist acts.
Al Jazeera: Thank you very much, General Myers.
General Myers: Thank you, sir.
Al Jazeera: General Richard Myers...
(END) ??
(end transcript)
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