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Transcript: Rumsfeld ABC-TV Interview With Cokie Roberts, October 28

(Says Afghan air attacks making "measurable progress") (2460)
The U.S. military effort in Afghanistan is "going very much the way we
expected when it began," with measurable progress made during the
first three weeks of air strikes, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld
says.
In an ABC-TV interview with Cokie Roberts October 28, Rumsfeld said he
still hopes and believes that the United States will locate terrorist
leader Osama bin Laden and put him out of operation, but argued that
"to think about only one man ... is a mistake."
"This is not about a single person. It is about the problem of
terrorism," Rumsfeld declared.
The defense secretary left open the possibility that U.S. ground
troops would be used in Afghanistan, but declined to discuss "what we
might or might not do" in terms of timing or numbers.
Following is a transcript of the Rumsfeld interview:
(begin transcript)
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
Interview with Cokie Roberts, ABC TV
Sunday, October 28, 2001 - 11:30 a.m. EDT
Roberts: And now joining us is Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.
Thank you so much for being with us, Mr. Secretary.
Rumsfeld: Thank you.
Roberts: I want to get to that question about Iraq later, but first,
the war. There have been stories over the weekend that give the
perception that this war, after three weeks, is not going very well.
That the Taliban is getting stronger, that Osama bin Laden is still at
large, that one of the chief opposition leaders has been assassinated,
and that the Red Cross warehouse has been hit by U.S. bombs. Is the
war just not going as well as you had hoped it would at this point?
Rumsfeld: Oh, no, quite the contrary. It's going very much the way we
expected when it began. Three weeks is not a very long time, if one
thinks about it. And the progress has been measurable. We feel that
the air campaign has been effective. The fact that for a period we did
not have good targets has now shifted, because we are getting much
better information from the ground in terms of targets. Also, the
pressure that has been put on fairly continuously these past weeks has
forced people to move and to change locations in a way that gives
additional targeting opportunities.
Roberts: Did the military help Abdul Haq, the opposition leader who
was assassinated Friday?
Rumsfeld: My understanding of that situation was that he had decided
to come back in the country in a form and manner of his own choosing.
And that he did request assistance, and that he received some
assistance. The assistance, unfortunately, was from the air and he was
on the ground. And regrettably, he was killed.
Roberts: But he did receive assistance from the U.S. military?
Rumsfeld: That's my understanding. No, I didn't say that. I said he
requested assistance and received it.
Roberts: But not from the U.S. military?
Rumsfeld: No. It was from another agency.
Roberts: Okay. From an intelligence agency, I would take it.
Rumsfeld: It was from another element of the government.
Roberts: Okay. The question of victory is one that is some -- a
question of definition. And I think that our polling generally shows
that getting Osama bin Laden is considered an important part of this
campaign and I want to show you some things that you've said over the
last week about this question. You said, "The military role will be
over there when the Taliban and the al-Qaeda are gone, gone. And that
is what this is all about." Then you said of Osama, "He's got a lot of
money, he's got a lot of people who support him, and I just don't know
whether we'll be successful." And finally, "Until you have him, you do
not have him. So what is the progress? Until he's no longer
functioning as a terrorist, he is functioning as a terrorist." That
sounds like you think that he is still the problem and until we get
him, we've not won, but we might not get him.
Rumsfeld: Well, those are a few of the things I've said on the
subject. I've said a great many things on the subject. I've also said
I have every reason to believe we will find him. I've also said that I
don't think he's the whole problem. This is not about a single person.
It is about the problem of terrorism. He is one element of al-Qaeda.
There are a lot of leaders. If he disappeared today off the face of
the Earth, there would still be the al-Qaeda network, there would
still be other terrorist networks, and there still would be worldwide
terrorism that would need to be dealt with.
So I think that it makes -- it's a mistake to too great an extent to
try to personalize what's going on in this world. We lost thousands of
people here in the United States. The president has declared war on
international terrorism. He is hard at taking the war to them, because
there's no way to defend everywhere in the world against terrorists.
You simply must go find them and root out those networks.
That is what is underway. To think only about one man, I think, is a
mistake. Will we get him? I think we will. And I certainly hope so.
Roberts: Why not put in massive ground troops now to go in and find
the elements of al-Qaeda and hopefully, also, Osama?
Rumsfeld: Well, we've not ruled out the use of ground troops.
Roberts: And is it a possibility that they will go in and go in soon?
Rumsfeld: Well, I think if one hasn't ruled them -- I didn't say
"soon," but I think if someone has not ruled out the use of ground
troops, there certainly is that possibility.
Roberts: But you're not saying they're going to go in anytime soon.
And in great numbers?
Rumsfeld: Well, that wouldn't be very wise of me, would it, to say
that we think something's going to happen in the period immediately
ahead. I'm not going to do that. I'm not going to talk about what we
might or might not do.
Roberts: The question of timetable, you've also said, it's important
not to have a timetable, that it has to go according to how the war
goes. But you've heard over the weekend President Musharraf of
Pakistan use the echo word from Vietnam "quagmire," and then he said
there does need to be a timetable. Here's what he said: "Military
action must be brought to an end as soon as possible and if it is
unable to achieve its military goals in a certain time, we need to
switch to a political strategy." Problems with the coalition falling
apart?
Rumsfeld: Well, first of all, there's nothing in that statement that
anyone could disagree with. No one would want a military campaign to
go on longer than necessary. And he said it should be brought to an
end as soon as possible. Everyone would want it to end as soon as
possible.
Second, there is no coalition. There are multiple coalitions. And we
have said that from the very beginning. We are getting all kinds of
different assistance from different countries all across the globe.
And about a week or two ago, I said, you know, some day in the next
period, someone's going to say, "oh, the coalition's falling apart!"
The implication being if one country decides they don't want to
participate in one element of what it is we're doing, that therefore,
quote, "the" coalition is falling apart. We have said from day one
there is no single coalition. There are multiple coalitions. Countries
are going to help us in the way they feel best. And we are getting
enormous support from all across the world.
Roberts: So are you saying if Pakistan pulls out, that that's okay?
Rumsfeld: Pakistan's not going to pull out. The President of Pakistan
has a very difficult situation. One has to appreciate how difficult
that is. He is doing a terrific job, in my personal view, in managing
that very difficult situation and he is being exceedingly cooperative
with us.
Roberts: Now, there is a perception, certainly here in Washington,
that part of the reason that this war has not widened to go -- you
talked about going after terrorism all over the world -- to go into
Iraq, and you've heard Brian Ross's report, the confirmation that
Mohammed Atta met with an Iraqi intelligence official, and the
suspicion about anthrax in Iraq. And that this administration doesn't
want to say the word "Iraq" for fear of having to go in and that then
the Arab world could blow apart.
Rumsfeld: This administration is not afraid of saying the word "Iraq."
Iraq has been on the terrorist list for years. There is no question
but that Iraq is a state that has committed terrorist acts and has
sponsored terrorist acts.
Roberts: Do you think it was -- the meeting with Mohammed Atta was
significant, in terms of September 11?
Rumsfeld: We will know that only after the proper law enforcement
people investigate that. Clearly, the meeting is not nothing. It is
something notable.
Roberts: And the reports that the anthrax could have been tampered
with by this Betonite that is Iraqi-based?
Rumsfeld: Yeah. I am really not into "could haves" and "might haves."
I think that in a position of responsibility in the government, I've
got an obligation to talk about what I know about and to not speculate
about those things. And I know that serious people are looking at both
of those matters seriously.
Roberts: In the military?
Rumsfeld: In the United States government.
Roberts: And if, in fact, it turns out that it was Iraq that
infiltrated the anthrax, what do we do?
Rumsfeld: Well, there's a hypothetical question that is the kind of
thing that ends up on the President of the United States' desk
frequently. And those are tough decisions and we'll just have to see.
Roberts: There's a sense, of course, that the coalition that was there
for the Gulf War kept the United States from going after Saddam at the
time. As you know better than I, there are a lot of people in this
administration and in your Defense Department who think that that was
a mistake and that we should do it now.
Rumsfeld: There's no question but that there's been a debate in the
world as to how that conflict might have ended differently. And
there's also no question but that Saddam is still a threat to his
neighbors. He is a threat to the Kurds in the north of his country.
He's a threat to the Shi'ia in the south. He's a threat to his
neighbors in Iran. He's a threat to Jordan.
Roberts: Is he a threat to us?
Rumsfeld: And he clearly, as a terrorist state, is a threat to other
countries in the world, including the United States. He has been
contained to some extent because of Operation Northern Watch and
Southern Watch, where the United States and coalition aircraft fly
missions to prevent him from getting a head start to try to impose his
will on his neighbors again. It is true there are people around in and
out of government who wish he weren't there. And certainly I'm one of
them.
Roberts: But no plans to go after him at the moment?
Rumsfeld: We're doing what we're doing and I will say this, the
president has said this is a war against terrorist networks across the
globe. There are many more than just al-Qaeda. They are in many more
countries beyond Afghanistan. And it is something that we as a country
and the many countries assisting us are currently doing.
We have to remember that what we see is only part of what's happening.
The number of people who have been arrested, the number of bank
accounts that have been frozen, the amount of intelligence that's been
gathered, the law enforcement work that's going on, is in addition
every bit as important as the military part that's taking place.
Roberts: Let me just ask you, though, about what you just said. And
we're about out of time, but what we see is just part of what's
happening. There's some sense that we're losing the propaganda war.
And those pictures we saw of those children at the beginning of the
program have taken the place in our minds of the pictures of the World
Trade Center being blown up. Why not allow more press access so that
the United States' press can show pictures that fight the Arab press?
Rumsfeld: I don't -- I'm not an expert on this subject, but my
understanding is that the United States government, during this
period, with respect to the military element, has been enormously
forthcoming and the press has been involved in as many aspects as I
believe has ever been the case of things where it's humanly possible.
The press has not been parachuting in on Special Operations activities
into a hostile environment in Afghanistan, to be sure. But I don't
think they want to, nor do I think it would be safe for the troops
trying to protect them, once they got in there.
There are press people all over Afghanistan and the ones that are
following the Taliban are, of course, allowed to go where the Taliban
wants and they're being told what the Taliban wants and the Al Jazeera
television network has a pattern of putting out al-Qaeda propaganda.
That's just a fact. Now, you're right, it makes it very difficult if
one side lies, and they have lied repeatedly. They're using mosques,
for example, for command and control, for ammunition storage. They are
clearly not telling the truth about these casualties. We know that of
certain knowledge.
Now, are people going to be killed in a war? You bet. And there are
plenty of people throwing ordnance around in Afghanistan besides the
United States. It's coming down -- we're bombing from the air, but the
opposition forces are, in fact, fighting against the Taliban. The
Taliban is fighting against us and the opposition forces. So when
someone dies, it could have come from any one of those four locations.
Roberts: Okay. Mr. Secretary, have you been vaccinated against
anthrax?
Rumsfeld: No.
Roberts: Okay. Thank you.
Rumsfeld: Have you?
Roberts: No. Thank you very much. Thank you for being here.
(end transcript)
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Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)