19 October 2001
Transcript: Rumsfeld October 18 Interview on CNN
(Says Taliban regime will not be left in place) (3960)
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld refused to confirm the presence of
U.S. ground troops in Afghanistan in a live CNN interview October 18,
citing operational security needs.
In response to questions about U.S. radio broadcasts reportedly
telling Afghans how to surrender to U.S. troops, and asking him to
confirm the presence of U.S. special operations forces equipment being
positioned on aircraft carrier flight decks, Rumsfeld replied, "If
you're asking, am I going to discuss any conceivable future operation
-- needless to say I must not do that. That would be putting people's
lives at risk and compromising the confidentiality that's so necessary
for operations."
Rumsfeld pointed out that leaflets being dropped by air over
Afghanistan encourage Afghans to oppose the Taliban and al-Qaida. The
hope, he said, is that members of the Taliban "will, in fact, move
over and support the Northern Alliance and support the tribes in the
south. It is also entirely possible, and indeed, there ha[ve] been
some instances of this where Taliban forces have changed sides."
The defense secretary acknowledged that coalition forces must prepare
for the possibility that Taliban and al-Qaida forces have chemical,
biological and radiation weapons which they might be prepared to use.
Asked whether coalition bombing targets would change in light of
Taliban claims about killing and wounding of Afghan civilians from air
strikes, the defense secretary said "[W]e really can't move [the
targeting], because we've already been focused totally on military
targets ... almost overwhelmingly outside of [Afghan cities]. To the
extent that there've been significant military targets in areas that
do have population nearby, they have almost always been targeted with
a weapon that has a high degree of precision so that there will not be
a high amount of collateral damage."
Rumsfeld also said it is "terribly important" that the United States
effectively disseminate the message that the current war is targeted
against terrorism and terrorists, and not against Islam or Muslims. He
also reiterated a recurrent theme that the United States must "take
this effort to the terrorists themselves," and that it has "an
interest in a post-Taliban Afghanistan," but an interest "more likely
to be financial and humanitarian than it is in terms of peacekeepers."
As for a fear of some in the region that the United States would leave
the Taliban in place and make them and Osama bin Laden even bigger
heroes than they are currently considered by some, Rumsfeld answered
succinctly: "That's not going to happen."
Following is a transcript of Rumsfeld's interview:
(begin transcript)
U.S. Department of Defense
Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld
Oct. 18, 2001
(Interview with Christiane Amanpour, CNN Live)
Aaron Brown: A little bit past 1:00 here in the East. We want to
welcome viewers on CNN International who join us for a while now for
an interview with Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. The Secretary
is in Washington. Christiane Amanpour, who will do the interview, is
in Islamabad. We'll step out of the way. Christiane, good evening to
you.
Amanpour: Good evening, Aaron. And Secretary Rumsfeld, thank you very
much for joining us this evening, my time, afternoon, your time, here
on CNN.
Can I begin by asking you, yesterday President Bush, and indeed the
British Prime Minister, Tony Blair, gave their strongest hints yet
that a possible ground force is imminent. Are you saying that perhaps
you can now envision a Northern Alliance offensive? And would the U.S.
provide air support?
Rumsfeld: Well, I think that the -- it's safe to say that the Northern
Alliance, and the various elements within the Northern Alliance, are
already attempting to take advantage of the situation and move their
forces forward against the Taliban and against the al-Qaida forces in
the north.
Amanpour: U.S. radio broadcasts are instructing Taliban troops how to
surrender to U.S. troops. Does that mean there will be a U.S. force on
the ground? And if not, to whom will Taliban forces surrender? Which
U.S. troops?
Rumsfeld: Well, I would point out that in the north, the Northern
Alliance forces, and, in the south, various tribal elements have been
contesting and competing against the Taliban for some time. The
leaflets that are being distributed are encouraging Afghan people and
Afghan forces to oppose the Taliban and to oppose the foreigners, the
al-Qaida, who have come into their country and turned it into a haven
for terrorist networks across the globe, including those that killed
thousands of people in Washington, D.C. and New York so recently.
The hope is that those Taliban people will, in fact, move over and
support the Northern Alliance and support the tribes in the south. It
is also entirely possible, and, indeed, there has been some instances
of this where Taliban forces have changed sides. And that is something
that is taking place today as we speak.
Amanpour: But Mr. Rumsfeld, the U.S. broadcast is the one that is
being broadcast by this flying radio station instructing specifically
how to surrender to U.S. forces.
Rumsfeld: Well, I think the point of the broadcast and of the leaflets
that are being dropped is that we're encouraging people to surrender
or to change sides. And it does not matter. The Afghan forces on the
ground that are opposed to Taliban and opposed to al-Qaida are in
many, many locations. And it's far more likely that they'll be working
with those forces.
Amanpour: Officials in your own department have been telling reporters
that there are now special operations forces and helicopters on the
decks of the aircraft carriers, aircraft carriers that have been
cleared of their fighter bombers. Can you confirm that to us?
Rumsfeld: Well, I'm sure there are helicopters on various locations
throughout the Central Command. I don't think that's really the point.
If you're asking, am I going to discuss any conceivable future
operations -- needless to say I must not do that. That would be
putting people's lives at risk and compromising the confidentiality
that's so necessary for operations.
Amanpour: U.S. intelligence has reportedly in the past detected
testing of chemical weapons at bin Laden's camp in Afghanistan. Given
that and given what's going on in the United States, if there were to
be an insertion of any U.S. personnel in Afghanistan, would they be
provided, instructed to use chemical, biological protection uniforms
and other such gear?
Rumsfeld: Well, we know certain things. We know that there are a list
of countries that is public, nations that have been very active in
sponsoring terrorism and fostering and facilitating and harboring
terrorist networks. We also know that those same countries, for the
most part, have been active in developing chemical and biologicals and
weaponizing those capabilities. It seems to me it's not a great leap
of imagination to suspect that, in fact, the relationship between
those nations on the terrorist list and the terrorist networks will
become sufficiently intimate at some point in the past or in the
future that we can expect terrorist networks to be using chemical and
biological weapons. And we also know that a number of them have been
actively seeking radiation weapons.
Now, if that's the case, one has to be cautious that these terrorist
networks either have or will have, and therefore are likely to use
capabilities of that type and see that forces, as well as people in
our country and deployed forces overseas, as well as friends and
allies, do what they do with a sense of heightened awareness and
preparedness.
Amanpour: Are you specifically concerned about that in Afghanistan if
U.S. or other allied forces are inserted on the ground?
Rumsfeld: Well, I guess any time U.S. forces are in the air or on the
ground or at sea against an enemy -- and there's no question but that
the terrorist networks are enemies -- that one has to be worried about
all kinds of threats that can come to them. And the threats are many
and varied. And I don't know that I would necessarily elevate one or
another higher than the ones you're suggesting.
Amanpour: Can I ask you about public opinion as this war continues?
Despite a lot of rhetoric in this region, we have, from our own
reporting, detected a discernible support in some quarters, even in
Afghanistan, for the goal of the bombing campaign, amongst Afghan
exiles, amongst people in Afghanistan, those opposed to the Taliban.
But recent reports and pictures of civilian casualties are beginning
to shift that support. In order to reverse that trend, would you
consider moving the targeting of leadership positions that you have
been targeting from populated areas where inevitably there're likely
to be civilian casualties -- would you consider shifting that
targeting to, for instance, ground forces on the front lines away from
populated areas?
Rumsfeld: Well, first, I think it's important to say that the
targeting by the United States and by coalition forces has been very
careful. It's been very measured. And it has, for the most part, not
been in any populated areas. It has been -- when you see reports on
television or in the press that the bombings in Kabul or in Kandahar,
or some other location, for the most part that means that it's on the
outskirts in areas that are military targets or involve military
individuals, clusters of forces.
Now that means, in answer to your question, we really can't move it,
because we've already been focused totally on military targets, and as
I say, almost overwhelmingly outside of the city. To the extent that
there've been significant military targets in areas that do have
population nearby, they have almost always been targeted with a weapon
that has a high degree of precision so that there will not be a high
amount of collateral damage. And I think the behavior of the Afghan
people in the country, quite apart of what pictures might be shown,
suggest that what I've just said is exactly true. We have a lot of
reports from the ground to the effect that Afghan, innocent Afghan
people are going about their affairs pretty much as normal,
notwithstanding the bombing campaign, because they know it's focused
on the people that, in many instances, the Afghan people, would not
want in their country anyway. There were foreign invaders, and they're
terrorists and they're the Taliban that has harbored those terrorists.
This effort is certainly not against the Afghan people. It's not
against a race. It's not against a religion. It is against terrorists
who came into the United States and killed thousands and thousands of
human beings, innocent people.
Amanpour: Mr. Secretary, as I said, we did discern support for the
goal of these air strikes amongst some in Afghanistan and elsewhere.
But I'm asking you, are you concerned that the civilian casualties
which you yourself have even spoken about in terms of some
mistargeting, some miss-hits. We've seen, you know, warehouses. We've
seen certain civilian dwellings that you yourself have acknowledged.
Are you concerned about a shift, which we're hearing about in public
support?
Rumsfeld: Well, we always have to be concerned. And you're quite
right. There was an instance where a missile went amiss and it hit a
house and four people, I understand, were killed, although we can't
verify that. There was also another instance where a warehouse was hit
and a few people were injured. It is something that we care about.
On the other hand, if you think of what the Taliban have done, they
have not only killed several thousand people in the United States, and
the al-Qaida. What they have done to the people of Afghanistan is a
tragedy. The people are starving. They have killed any number of
people. The weapons that are being fired today that you're talking
about are coming, to be sure, in some instances from the sky. In other
instances, they're coming from the Taliban shooting at the aircraft in
the sky. And in still other instances, the weapons are being fired by
opposition forces. So there are at least three different sources of
weapons going on in that country, a country that has faced war against
the Soviet Union and then a civil war for the years since. It is truly
a tragedy. And our hope is that it can end soon and that the Afghan
people can be cared for and assisted. It's not an accident that the
United States of America gave something like $170 million for food
assistance to Afghanistan well before September 11th. We do care about
the people of that country.
Amanpour: You have said that many, many times. And indeed, you said
over and over again, and so have all the leaders of this coalition,
that this is not a war against Islam, but one against terrorism. But
as you know, there are very loud voices in this region who are saying
exactly the opposite, that this is, in fact, they claim, a war against
Islam. You and indeed Condoleezza Rice have just appeared on the Al
Jazeera Arab Satellite Network. Are you concerned that you have been
slow in getting your message out to the Muslim world?
Rumsfeld: Well, I think it's terribly important that we do it. I think
it's important that we be effective and do it. I just came back from a
trip to several countries in the region, as you may recall, and met
with the leadership there and went on television in of those countries
and discussed the purpose of this effort and the reasons for it. It is
clearly important that the world understand what this is about. When
terrorists attack, they can attack any place at any time, and it's not
possible to defend every place at every time. The weapons are very
powerful today. The only choice that the United States has is to take
this effort to the terrorists themselves and to find them an to root
them out and to stop them from their murderous ways.
This is all we are about. The United States has no interest in any
piece of real estate anywhere outside of the United States of America.
We don't covet other people's land. We have no axe to grind with any
people in the world, except for people who are going about the world
killing innocent people.
Amanpour: I want to try to get to the heart of the perception problem,
Mr. Secretary. You have, as you say, gone out of your way to express
public empathy with the Afghan people as opposed to the Taliban regime
in Afghanistan. But in this part of the world, people, Muslims, feel
that the United States has not shown similar empathy for the poverty
and the misery of the Palestinian cause. In this part of the world,
that is a litmus test. And they make -- they make a link between the
Palestinian cause and the perceived lack of empathy and the claim --
the claim that Osama bin Laden makes to represent their cause.
Now I know you do not think, nor do most people think that link is
justified. But do you accept that America has a long-term problem with
this kind of perception in the Muslim world unless that issue is dealt
with and resolved?
Rumsfeld: Well, first, you're quite right. There's no question but
that Osama bin Laden and others are actively trying to go around the
world and connect these things, and I must say with some success in
the case of the al-Qaida. I would also point out, however, that it was
the United States and a coalition of Western countries that went in
and threw Saddam Hussein and the Iraqis out of a Muslim country,
Kuwait. It was the United States that worked with the Muslims in
Kosovo and Bosnia when they were being badly treated. It was the
United States that assisted with food aid and humanitarian assistance
in Somalia, another Muslim nation. The United States, the biggest
provider in Afghanistan before these terrible attacks on the United
States. The United States is deeply involved in the peace process in
the Middle East.
You've used the word "until it is solved." It has been there a long
time, most all of my adult life. More than your adult life. It has
been going on for decade after decade and after decade. It is a
terribly difficult, intractable problem. President Bush and his
predecessors, dating all the way back, have all been involved in that
peace process. I've been involved in it in three administrations. It
is not something that lends itself to instantaneous solution. And I
think that the people of the region have to know that President Bush
and Secretary Powell and George Tenet, any number of other people are
on the phone, are meeting in person with the leaders on both sides in
the Middle East peace process, working diligently to try to help solve
those problems. The violence seems to continue. It ebbs and it flows;
it gets a little better and a little worse. It is a tragedy. People
have been killed within the last week. It's something that the entire
world has to be concerned about.
But I think that suggesting that the United States of America should
be attacked by terrorist networks and thousands of Americans killed,
innocent people, men, women and children, by people who are proud of
having done it and go on television about how much they agree with the
fact that it was done, and then to suggest that we must not do
anything about that until a very intractable problem between the two
sides in the Middle East is solved suggests that it might be another
decade. That problem is being worked hard by the President. We
understand its importance. And we also understand that there are
people out there making mischief. They're trying to stir up that pot
and to make it more difficult and to contend that the United States,
for whatever reason, is inattentive. We are not inattentive. We are
doing, as are other countries, everything humanly possible to help
solve that problem in a way that makes sense for the parties to the
process.
They have to live together ultimately in that region. And that means
that in the last analysis, they're going to have to find ways to sort
out those difficulties, and the United States stands ready, as do
other countries in the region, to be as helpful as humanly possible.
Amanpour: Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you about specific Pakistani
concerns. They say that they have seen the United States use Pakistan
as an ally before in the first Afghan war, and then, in the immortal
words of President Musharraf, leave this country high and dry when it
was over. That's the perception.
Are you able now to assure the Pakistani people that once this war,
when it is over, that you will continue your cooperation and alliance
and support for Pakistan?
Rumsfeld: Well, I'm sure that Secretary Powell in his visits in
Pakistan and his visits in India discussed with both sides, both
parties the interests the United States has in their country, the
importance we give to those countries and the respect we have for the
difficult tasks they're engaged in. And if you think about it, the
world keeps shrinking. The weapons are so powerful today that the idea
that any country can withdraw to itself and not be attentive to
important nations like India and Pakistan and to not recognize that
the volatility in certain parts of the world can, in effect, ripple
across the globe in a very harmful, dangerous way for human beings
from all countries. That's just the way the world is today. We have to
be interested. We have to be attentive to the world, as do other
nations.
Amanpour: You mentioned Secretary Powell. On another issue, he has
said that he sees a potential, possible role for U.S. peacekeepers in
a U.N. role here, or rather U.N. peacekeepers here. Do you envision
seeing U.S. peacekeepers as part of a U.N. peacekeeping force or
allowing all the logistical, technical, intelligence facilities of the
U.S. in this region to help a peacekeeping force?
Rumsfeld: Well, I don't believe Secretary Powell said that. I could be
wrong. I haven't been able to track every one of his utterances. But I
know that the policy of the United States government is that our task,
the task the President has assigned to us is to go out throughout the
world and find those terrorists that are killing people, innocent
people, and root them out and to deal with countries that are
harboring those terrorists. I think that, clearly, the United States
has an interest in a post Taliban Afghanistan. I think our interest is
much more likely to be financial and humanitarian than it is in terms
of peacekeepers. The United States has peacekeepers in many, many
countries across the globe. And given the magnitude of the task that
the President has undertaken to root out terrorists, I would suspect
that it would be not a high likelihood that the United States would
end up active in a troop role as peacekeepers in Afghanistan, although
there's no doubt in my mind that the President would want the United
States to be involved from a humanitarian standpoint and a financial
standpoint.
But that, of course -- those are issues that remain to be seen.
They're ahead, and they're not immediate. What is immediate is getting
the Taliban and the al-Qaida out of that country and dealt with so
they stop killing innocent people.
Amanpour: And on that note, many people who do support this campaign
against terrorism, even in this region, are afraid that perhaps you
might leave the Taliban in place and make them and Osama bin Laden
even bigger heroes than they are perceived to be in some quarters of
this region right now. What can you say to that?
Rumsfeld: That's not going to happen.
Amanpour: And finally, finally this time, last week you announced, or
it was said from Washington that there as a pause on Friday, last
Friday because of the Muslim day of prayer. Do you plan to do that
again tomorrow?
Rumsfeld: We have made a practice of not announcing pauses or what
we're doing because it just simplifies the problem for the other side.
We are going to go about our business of seeking out those terrorists
and finding them when we can and where we can and dealing with them,
and dealing with the Taliban government that has harbored and
facilitated and fostered and helped the al-Qaida foreigners in their
country. And we're going to do it as energetically and as vigorously
and as opportunistically as we can. And they best know that.
Amanpour: Mr. Secretary, thank you very much indeed for joining us.
Rumsfeld: Thank you.
Amanpour: Christiane Amanpour reporting from Islamabad in Pakistan.
Aaron Brown: Christiane, thank you.
(end transcript)
(Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S.
Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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