State Department's Swigert on Yugoslav Elections
WORLDNET TELEVISION - "WASHINGTON WINDOW"
TOPIC: YUGOSLAV ELECTIONS
GUEST: JAMES SWIGERT, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR EUROPEAN
AFFAIRS
HOST: JIM BERTEL
DATE: MONDAY, OCTOBER 2, 2000
MR. BERTEL: Hi. I'm Jim Bertel. Welcome to Washington Window, where we
discuss today's most important issues one on one with leading
newsmakers.
The eyes of the world are on Yugoslavia as we wait to learn the final
outcome of the September 24 elections. The Federal Election
Commission's official results give opposition candidate Vojislav
Kostunica nearly 49 percent of the vote, just shy of the majority
needed for a first-round victory.
But Kostunica and his supporters accuse the government of
orchestrating fraud in counting the ballots, saying he won a
first-round victory with nearly 55 percent of the vote, a claim almost
universally supported worldwide. Kostunica refuses to participate in
the October 8 runoff election and has called for a country wide
campaign of civil disobedience to force President Milosevic to
acknowledge defeat and step down. But President Milosevic shows no
inclination to do so, instead trying to maintain a normal schedule
while preparing for the October 8 vote.
Let's get the very latest on the situation in Belgrade from my
colleague, Ninad Zaferovic, who is in the Serbian capital reporting
for the Voice of America. Ninad, at this point, what effect is the
opposition's general strike having on the country?
MR. ZAFEROVIC: (Through interpreter.) First of all, good day, or good
morning. And based upon that which they are reporting from the main
center of the Democratic Party from Serbia, yes, it has been very
effective, because this morning at 6:30 Yugoslav time, in most of the
cities in Serbia and in Belgrade, in the capital of Serbia, everything
was paralyzed. Right now, at this moment, there are strikes on many
companies, public-sector companies, transportation. Right now they
have told us that in Belgrade, on the street in which I'm located,
there is a parked trolley bus and a tram, and all of the people,
including the driver, have decided to participate in the general
strike.
The situation is similar in other cities in Serbia. The democratic
opposition in Serbia knows that today and what is happening tomorrow
is basically a rehearsal and the last threat against Milosevic, and
that they have to give out the correct results. And then Wednesday
there should be a complete paralysis in Serbia on the part of the
Democratic Party.
MR. BERTEL: What is the mood in Serbia right now? Are people
optimistic that this general strike will have an effect and eventually
lead to Mr. Milosevic leaving office?
MR. ZAFEROVIC: The people with whom I have spoken today, not only in
Belgrade but in places outside of Belgrade but close to Belgrade, yes,
there is optimism. And they are conclusive that all of these needs
will go forward and there will be no way that the representatives of
the democratic opposition nor their supporters will be going out on
the October 8 election, especially in the checkpoints where the
traffic has been stopped.
We feel that we have, on the 24 of September, elected our officials.
And we will see whether the diplomatic initiative right now, which is
coming from Russia -- 20 minutes ago we finished a discussion with the
democratic opposition leader, Vojislav Kostunica, with Vladimir Chizov
(ph), representative from Russia. And Chizov said in brief to the
reporters that the discussion was very beneficial. And what the final
outcome will be, you will learn very shortly.
But today the public was shocked that Vladimir Putin called -- was
shocked that he called Milosevic and Kostunica to come to Moscow. We
asked questions about that, but he didn't want to say anything. He
said, "I'm still not getting my response to those who have given me
that invitation." And, of course, it is still too early to talk about
that. In any event, at this particular moment in Serbia, there are
battles taking place, and not only on the diplomatic level but on the
civil disobedience level in Serbia.
MR. BERTEL: Just one last quick question. You mentioned the Russian
envoys. Over the weekend, President Milosevic said he would not meet
with any representatives from Russia. Are the Russian diplomats that
are there in Serbia right now optimistic they will get in and at least
be able to speak to a representative of Mr. Milosevic?
MR. ZAFEROVIC: Vladimir Chizov, the Russian envoy, did not talk about
that. But to these journalists that were there, he said he will talk
to the representatives from one and the other party here. We have
unofficially found out that the Russian negotiators will be talking to
Zhivady Nivanovic (ph), and right now, at this moment, we're now
talking about the possibility of them meeting with Slobodan Milosevic
himself.
MR. BERTEL: All right, Ninad, thank you so much from the Voice of
America. Thank you for joining us with that update on the situation in
Belgrade.
Well, will the opposition be able to force democratic change? That's
just one of many questions we are going to try to answer in the hour
ahead. Joining me for this discussion here in Washington is the
current deputy assistant secretary of State for European affairs at
the U.S. State Department, James Swigert.
Mr. Swigert, it's a pleasure to have you with us today.
MR. SWIGERT: Good to be here, Jim.
MR. BERTEL: Let's begin by asking where the U.S. stands on the
situation in Yugoslavia.
MR. SWIGERT: Well, we could put this in the context of U.S. policy
toward Southeast Europe. The United States and the European Union have
been strongly supportive of seeing all of Southeast Europe be
integrated into the new Europe and to fully benefit from the
remarkable changes that have been taking place in Europe since the
fall of the Berlin Wall.
For some time, unfortunately, although there's been progress made
elsewhere in Southeast Europe, and recently considerable progress made
in Croatia, Serbia has been what many people have called the "black
hole," and Yugoslavia has not been able to participate in these
broader changes.
Thanks to the courage and determination of the Yugoslav people on
September 24, that situation, I think, has changed. It was quite clear
that Yugoslavs and Serbs in large numbers turned out to vote, despite
threats and intimidation, and voted decisively to reject the policies
of Milosevic of isolation, conflict, enrichment of a small clique, and
instead voted for democratic change and for the rejoining of Serbia
and Yugoslavia to Europe.
The United States supports that. We support what the Serbian and
Yugoslav people have done. And we are very encouraged by what we see
as a continuation of their courage and their determination to bring
about change. It's not just the United States, of course. There have
been many statements over the course of the last days since September
24 from many European leaders, from the European Union, from the OSCE
[Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe], calling on
Milosevic to respect the will of the people.
It's quite clear from the evidence that the opposition has put forward
that Milosevic really should step aside right now. We support the
opposition in their insisting that there's no basis for a second
round, and we admire very much their determination to go about
pressing this in a non-violent way.
MR. BERTEL: Mr. Milosevic has everything to lose by stepping down.
What incentive is out there for him to abide by the will of the people
and to step aside and perhaps end up in The Hague [at the
International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia], where he
could very well be convicted of war crimes?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, you know quite well, Jim, our view on this is that
Milosevic should be out of power, out of Yugoslavia, and in The Hague.
I think it's clear from his track record that Slobodan Milosevic does
nothing unless he's pressed and forced to do that. He looks out, first
of all, for his own self-interest.
But what's quite clear now, and what has changed fundamentally in the
situation inside Yugoslavia is that the people have rejected him, and
they've rejected him decisively. We have seen, I think, over the
course of the last week that within the regime, this stunning defeat
of Milosevic is reverberating. But this is now stretching beyond the
confines of people who have been vociferous in their opposition to
Milosevic and his policies for some time to now reaching within the
Socialist Party itself, within other elements of the regime, and
people are nervous. They're wondering about their own future and
they're wondering whether they should, in fact, tie their future to
that of Slobodan Milosevic.
So I think he is in a very tough situation. It's quite clear that he
was surprised, stunned by what happened on September 24. He's been
surprised and stunned by the unity of the opposition forces and just
scrambling. So I think that the continuation of this movement for
democracy inside Serbia is putting Milosevic in a position where he
has no recourse. He has no alternative but to step aside.
MR. BERTEL: Well, we have many questions from journalists throughout
Southeastern Europe coming up this hour. And let's continue our
discussion by going to the Serbian capital, Belgrade, where I'm joined
by a colleague from ANAM (sp). Please go ahead with your question for
Mr. Swigert.
Q: (No response.)
MR. BERTEL: Please go ahead with your question for Mr. Swigert, and
please ask your question in Serbian.
Q: (Through interpreter.) If Mr. Milosevic wants to seek political
asylum anywhere in the world -- let's say, for example, China -- would
the United States accept that if they would be able to receive a
peaceful handover of the government on the part of Mr. Milosevic?
And we in the United States stand by to assist in that. President
Clinton has made quite clear that sanctions should be immediately
lifted when there's a democratic government in Belgrade.
MR. BERTEL: Let's stay in Belgrade and take a second question from
ANAM.
Q: When will the sanctions be removed?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, as I said, we've made quite clear in our
discussions with the European Union, and have supported what the
European Union has said, that sanctions should be removed when there's
a democratic government in Belgrade, when the will of the Serbian and
Yugoslav people are respected. Clearly Milosevic right now is still
trying to thwart the results of the elections on September 24. So, in
effect, it's Milosevic who is prolonging these sanctions.
MR. BERTEL: Thank you for those questions. Let's move on now to
Podgorica and TV Montenegro, where I am joined by my colleague, Malena
Jurgic (ph). Malena, please go ahead with your first question.
Q: (Through interpreter.) (Inaudible) -- September elections, in
Serbia nothing would be the same as it was before. There's an action
taking place right now, the blockade of Serbia. What is the thinking
of Washington in terms of the development and the outcome of the
situation?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, we agree nothing is going to be the same after
September 24. This was an unprecedented event in Slobodan Milosevic's
political career. This was a defeat. In effect, even his own Socialist
Party and the left coalition have acknowledged this defeat, although
they've not acknowledged the apparent victory of Mr. Kostunica in
these elections.
When it comes to the question of how the Serbian and Yugoslav people
pressed forward on their demand that the election results be
respected, that's really an issue for people inside Yugoslavia. From
the outside, I think we can help most by making clear what we're
prepared to do when there is a democratic government in Belgrade, and
that's to move ahead with lifting the sanctions -- the sanctions that,
in effect, Slobodan Milosevic is responsible for maintaining around
the people of Yugoslavia.
Q: (He's?) been in contact with the allies in the West and the
Russians. Milosevic hopes that Putin will still have understanding for
the Belgrade regime. Are we talking about the final illusion of Mr.
Milosevic?
MR. SWIGERT: I think we're talking about one of many illusions of Mr.
Milosevic. Secretary Albright is in Paris today. She's meeting with
leaders of the European Union, her counterpart ministers from the
European Union. And I must say, the Balkans, and the situation in
Yugoslavia, are at the absolute top of the agenda. There have been a
lot of discussions. And as I mentioned earlier, we've seen a whole
series of European leaders and European organizations stating quite
clearly where they stand vis-a-vis these election results, quite
clearly that the Serb and Yugoslav people have voted for democratic
change and that these results must be respected.
I know, in terms of discussions with the Russians, that these are
ongoing. President Clinton was on the phone over the weekend with
President Putin, and they agreed that it is essential for Milosevic to
respect the will of the Serbian people as expressed in these
elections.
MR. BERTEL: Thank you for those questions. We're going to move on to
Skopje now and A-1 television of Macedonia, where I'm pleased to
welcome Safet Bisavez (ph). Safet, please go ahead with your first
question.
Q: (No response.)
MR. BERTEL: Safet, are you there? Okay, apparently we're having some
technical difficulties. We'll get back to Safet in just a moment.
Let's move on now to Sarajevo, where we're joined by OBN Television.
And today we're joined by Zelko Lakic (ph). Zelko, please go ahead
with your question.
Q: (No response.)
MR. BERTEL: Zelko Lakic from OBN television, please go ahead with your
first question for Mr. Swigert.
Q: (No response.)
MR. BERTEL: Okay, we'll try to work on those technical difficulties
and get back to our broadcasters in just a moment. During our report
from Belgrade, we heard that there are Russian envoys in Serbia right
now meeting with the opposition and hoping to meet with at least
representatives from Mr. Milosevic. Over the weekend, President Putin
had a long conversation with President Clinton, and, of course, the
situation in Yugoslavia came up. What role are the Russians playing in
resolving the situation there?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, I think the best role the Russians can play at this
point is to push very hard for President Milosevic to step aside and
for him to accept the results of these elections. There have been a
number of different discussions about efforts that might be made to
try and verify the results of these elections, get the election
commission finally to put forward the data to support their contention
that Mr. Kostunica did not get over 50 percent of the vote in the
September 24 election. So far it's quite clear that the election
commission prefers to keep all of these protocols and the basis of
their vote count secret, hidden. And I've, in fact, seen a report that
suggests that Milosevic has, in fact, rejected the notion of his going
to Moscow with Mr. Kostunica.
So I think that we welcome the fact that there are Russians that are
actively engaged in this, and the message that we would see for all of
us to deliver at this moment is that it's time for Mr. Milosevic to
step aside. It's time for him to recognize the writing on the wall and
accept the verdict, accept the result of these elections and the will
of the Serbian and Yugoslav people.
MR. BERTEL: Well, now, if Mr. Milosevic were to travel to Moscow for
discussions with President Putin, wouldn't the Russians be obligated
to detain him and transfer him to the Hague as an indicted war
criminal?
MR. SWIGERT: There are definitely obligations on all members of the
U.N. to carry out their obligations to cooperate with the war crimes
tribunal. I don't know what is the calculus in Mr. Milosevic's mind. I
think really the issue here at this point is carrying out the results
of these elections, getting a democratic government into Belgrade,
opening the doors for Serbia and Yugoslavia's reintegration into
Europe and the world community.
MR. BERTEL: In the days leading up to the September 24 election, the
Washington Post ran an article that talked about the money the West
was spending to support the opposition in defeating President
Milosevic. The next day, that same article was reprinted in the
state-run newspaper in Belgrade. Does the West risk hurting Mr.
Kostunica's credibility by playing too big a role in the vote?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, certainly we, the West, the United States, European
countries, played no role whatsoever in this vote. The role was played
by the Serbian and Yugoslav people, who went out and, in an atmosphere
of considerable intimidation, in an atmosphere in which information
was hard to get by because of the propaganda that was being sent out
over state-run media, in a very, very difficult situation, they went
out and they voted for change. They voted for democracy. They voted
for an end to Serbia's and Yugoslavia's isolation. They voted for an
end to the cronyism and criminality that has been associated with the
Milosevic regime.
Now, it's true that the United States and others in Europe have been
assisting democratic forces, independent media, the same sort of
democratization assistance that we carry out in many places around the
world. This is public. This is well known. But I would not suggest
that there's anybody who's responsible for the sea change in the
situation in Yugoslavia other than the citizens of Yugoslavia, who
showed tremendous courage in doing what they did on September 24 and
are showing tremendous courage today.
MR. BERTEL: Well, I think we're ready to move back to our broadcasters
in Southeastern Europe. Let's return to Macedonia, where A-1
television is standing by, and Safet Bisavez is our colleague there.
Please go ahead with your first question.
Q: Are the Western countries considering some possible agreements by
which Milosevic would be released from the charges for war crimes if
he peacefully leaves the political scene in Yugoslavia?
MR. SWIGERT: We very much would like to see Mr. Milosevic leave the
scene in Yugoslavia, and do so peacefully, in accord with the approach
that the opposition has been taking in Serbia of peaceful opposition
and demanding their rights in a very peaceful way. But as I said
earlier in this program, it's the firm position of the United States,
no deals with Slobodan Milosevic. He's an indicted war criminal.
Q: What if Milosevic decides to stay in power by all means, using all
possible -- all he can?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, as I mentioned earlier, I think Mr. Milosevic
doesn't have all the means that he may have once thought he had at his
disposal. I think the clear demonstration on the part of the
Serbian-Yugoslav people is the rejection of his policies, the amazing
repudiation that took place in the voting booth on September 24, the
unity of forces that people are showing, the determination that is
evident in the streets inside Yugoslavia, in the towns and small
cities of Yugoslavia, and not just in the capital city. All this, I
think, gives Mr. Milosevic reason for pause.
It's been clear that he might have at one point thought he could turn
to the army to use force against the citizens of his own country. In
the statements that have been made by army generals in recent days,
it's clear they don't want to put themselves into that position. And
we are picking up a great deal of information that I know is also
circulating within Serbia and Yugoslavia about people within the
regime who have been quick to congratulate the new democratic forces
that they see, I think correctly, as the future of the country.
People are looking now at their own situation, the people that have
been supporting this regime. They're thinking about their own futures.
They're thinking about the future of their children. They're thinking
about what it may mean for them if they stand by Slobodan Milosevic,
and particularly if they stand by Slobodan Milosevic should he try to
use force against his own people. So I think there are a number of
cracks that are developing within the regime.
One interesting thing that we've just seen in the past few days is
that, in addition to the very courageous people who have been
representing objective voices and independent media within Yugoslavia,
even under these horrific conditions, there are now a number of
journalists and a number of local TV stations throughout Serbia that
are refusing to run RTS, refusing to run the propaganda outlet of the
Milosevic regime. And I think that's emblematic of the process that is
starting right now of decay within the regime. And you see this going
on within the socialist party of Serbia as well.
After all, these people, who have been propping up the Milosevic
regime, working with the Milosevic regime, they come in all varieties.
And I think one important element has been the consistent signal sent
by Mr. Kostunica and others that there is not going to be any period
of revenge or any threat that will be directed against people within
the regime.
This is a chance. This is an opportunity for people throughout
Yugoslavia to stand up for what's right, to stand up for the rule of
law, to stand up for democracy and stand up for the future of
Yugoslavia. Those who don't, those who choose the wrong course at this
point, I'm sure they'll be remembered. And I'm sure their neighbors
and their friends throughout Serbia will know where they stood at this
crucial moment.
MR. BERTEL: All right, thank you for those questions. At this point
we're going to welcome Romanian television to the program. And my
colleague, Magdalena Angil (ph), is there. Magdalena, it's good to
have you with us today.
Q: Good morning. My first question deals with Mr. Kostunica. Mr.
Swigert, do you think that Kostunica will be the easy ally Washington
hopes for? I mean, he's regarded as a hard-line nationalist as
Milosevic is. For example, in the wake of the Serbian pullout from
Kosovo following NATO raids, Kostunica condemned Milosevic for his,
and I quote, "shameful capitulation." So how are you going to deal
with Kostunica?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, first, let me say that the United States doesn't
choose the leaders of other countries. These leaders are chosen, we
hope, in a democratic process. And as the democratic process is
respected inside Serbia and there is a democratic government there, we
will consider that a vast improvement on the current situation. And
we'll, of course, work with it and we'll move forward on a series of
issues.
I must say that in terms of the comments we've seen coming from Mr.
Kostunica and others that refer to the necessity of respect for the
rule of law, that is a very positive message. And I don't expect
anything about the democratic transition in Serbia to be easy. I think
that this will be a difficult period. But you can be absolutely clear
about the commitment of the United States and the willingness of the
United States to work with a democratic government in Belgrade, and as
President Clinton has said, to move forward on lifting of sanctions.
Q: Today Kostunica has made a statement in which he criticized harshly
the United States and also Russia. He said that the United States has
helped to turn the presidential election into a matter of survival for
Milosevic by insisting he stand trial for war crimes before U.N.
tribunal. What do you think? Is it correct to slam both Russia and
Washington?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, I haven't seen Mr. Kostunica's statement, so I
wouldn't want to react to it specifically. I've addressed this
question of the indictment against Mr. Milosevic before. He is
indicted by the International War Crimes Tribunal, which is a U.N.
organization. And we believe that it is essential to follow through in
terms of that obligation under the U.N. And as I've said, it's our
policy that he should be out of power and out of Yugoslavia and in The
Hague.
MR. BERTEL: Magdalena, thank you for those questions.
You're watching Washington Window, and we'll have more right after
this.
(Break.)
MR. BERTEL: This is Washington Window, where we're discussing the
political situation in the former Yugoslavia with James Swigert,
deputy assistant secretary of State for European affairs. At this
point we're pleased to move on to Sarajevo and the OBN network, where
my colleague Zelko Lakic is. Zelko, go ahead with your first question.
Q: (Through interpreter.) Mr. Swigert, what will be the next step of
international community after (a few?) Russian initiatives? Do you
expect some common decision after today's meeting in Paris?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, I think at this point we intend to continue with
the pressure on the Milosevic regime to respect the results of the
September 24 election. As I said, we're delivering this message in a
number of ways. And the key thing for Milosevic right now is to
recognize the results of these elections and the respect for the will
of the people. I think we'll be obviously tracking developments very,
very closely. There are a number of high-level discussions that are
continuing today in Paris. We're in close touch with the Russians. And
I would expect that would continue throughout the week.
Q: The (war?) situation in Serbia, however, it -- (inaudible) -- plans
on Bosnia-Herzegovina and other countries in the region.
MR. SWIGERT: Well, I think democratic change in Serbia and the
establishment of a democratic government as a result of these
elections that took place on September 24 brought a very beneficial
effect on the entire region. We have been working with the European
Union very hard to try and move forward the process of integration,
but in the context of the Stability Pact. There has been a hole in the
middle of the doughnut here of Stability Pact countries, which has
been Yugoslavia and Serbia in particular. Montenegro has, in fact,
participated in a number of Stability Pact endeavors.
So I think it would be very fortunate to have a democratic government
inside Belgrade, the ability to move forward in terms of integration
of Yugoslavia into the new Europe. That will facilitate the process, I
think, throughout the region of moving forward on the agenda of
prosperity, democracy and reform.
MR. BERTEL: Thank you for those questions. Let's return to TV
Montenegro and Podgorica, and we'll take three questions from TV
Montenegro.
Q: (Through interpreter.) (Inaudible) -- between Podgorica and
Belgrade will be illegitimate. The new government is waiting for the
new government to be installed so we can resolve some issues between
Podgorica and Belgrade.
MR. SWIGERT: I'm sorry. Could you repeat that question, please?
Q: Until the federal constitution is not renewed back to its original
status, the relationships between Montenegro and Serbia will not be
legitimate. We are waiting for negotiators from both sides to come
forward and to resolve the issues between the two. What is your
thinking on that?
MR. SWIGERT: I think there are a number of issues between Montenegro
and Serbia in terms of the relationship between the two republics and
inside the Yugoslav Federation. These were exacerbated clearly by the
steps that were taken by the Milosevic regime to ram through certain
changes to the constitution without consultations in Montenegro,
without, of course, any democratic consultations inside Serbia.
Should a democratic government come to office inside Serbia and
Belgrade, I'm confident these problems can be addressed and resolved
successfully. It's quite clear that the democratic opposition inside
Serbia has indicated its openness, willingness and readiness to engage
on the platform for redefining the relationships between the two
republicans that [Montenegrin] President Djukanovic and his government
put forward.
So I think the key here is now to get to the point where there is, in
fact, a democratic government inside Belgrade. And there, I think, the
role that Montenegro has played and Montenegro's democratic forces
have played over the course of the last year or so in terms of
opposing the dictatorial policies of the Milosevic regime is very
important. And I think it's very important that Montenegro continue to
engage and support the democratic forces that are now pushing for
Milosevic to respect the results of this September 24 election.
Q: President Djukanovic -- the West wanted him to take part in the
strike. And secondly, 88 percent of the voters in Montenegro are
against Milosevic. What is your comment on the facts that we've
brought forward?
MR. SWIGERT: I think I need that question clarified. Could you re-ask
your question, please?
Q: Even though the West, in the beginning, asked President Djukanovic
to boycott the process, we were able to keep the respect of Montenegro
because the boycott against -- what is your opinion on the boycott,
and what would you think about Montenegro not coming out at those
federal elections?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, we had some long discussions with President
Djukanovic and others about the question of participation in these
elections. And we understand the reasons that President Djukanovic and
the ruling coalition inside Montenegro decided not to participate in
these elections. We think the key issue here is to bring about
democratic change in Yugoslavia. And I think that there are a number
of things that Montenegro can do on that point. We made it clear, and
it's been our policy for some time, to support a democratic Montenegro
within a democratic Yugoslavia. And we think that Montenegro can be a
key partner in that endeavor, working with democratic forces inside
Yugoslavia.
I think, rather than focus backwards on the question of participation
in the elections of September 24, the focus should be forward in terms
of competing the process of democratic change inside Serbia and
bringing a democratic government into power in Yugoslavia. And then,
in that context, I think these issues between Montenegro and Serbia
can be resolved, and resolved successfully.
Q: There is thought that when Milosevic leaves Belgrade, then the eyes
of the world will be on Belgrade, and then we will not have such
strong support for Podgorica. What do you think about that thesis?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, as I said, I think democratic Montenegro has played
a very important role in terms of challenging the Milosevic regime, in
terms of making clear its support for democratic change throughout
Yugoslavia. And I think there is a great deal of appreciation of that
in the international community.
I certainly don't see that there's going to be a myopic shift of focus
to Belgrade and that that means that there is sort of a zero-sum game
involved here. On the contrary, I think Montenegro has an important
role to play in building a new democratic Yugoslavia and that the
international community will remain closely engaged with Montenegro in
this process, as well as engaged with what we hope will soon be
democratic forces, democratic government, inside Yugoslavia.
None of this is going to be easy. Democratic transition, particularly
after a period of dictatorial rule, which was accompanied by wars and
sanctions and isolation, all of that, these are going to be difficult
problems to resolve. But I think the focus right now is understandably
on what's going on inside Serbia with the results of the elections on
September 24, the demand of the people who are now demonstrating
peacefully in support of these election results, the demands that
Milosevic step aside and respect them. I think that it's natural that
there will be a focus on that.
But that hasn't lessened, I think, the degree of international
engagement and support for democratic Montenegro. I know that there
have been high-level discussions with President Djukanovic recently,
and that Montenegro continues very much to fit in the discussions that
the United States and the European Union have been having about the
situation in Yugoslavia and the Balkans.
MR. BERTEL: Malena, thank you for those questions. We're glad you were
with us today at TV Montenegro. We're going to head back to Belgrade
now, back to ANAM, where Vlade Radamic (ph) is. Vlade, go ahead with
your next question.
Q: Hello. I'm sitting near the street in central Belgrade. Some of the
streets are blocked off. Mr. Swigert, do you see any possibility for
Mr. Milosevic to remain in power?
MR. SWIGERT: I don't think that anyone can say precisely when the
change will take place, but I do feel that after September 24,
Milosevic has suffered an irreparable blow to his position inside
Yugoslavia. He's lost whatever legitimacy he might have had before the
Yugoslav people and the Serbian people. The extent to which his
Central Election Commission and his regime was involved in cooking the
books and cheating in this election is well known.
This is no longer something that is sort of put under the table and
hidden. And I think people within his own regime and his own party,
the army, the police, they're well aware of it. They are well aware of
the fact that Milosevic lost this election and that he is, in fact,
now trying to cling to power through fraudulent means. And I think
that has a tremendous impact on his ability to stay where he is.
MR. BERTEL: Thank you for that question. We're going to return to A-1
TV in Macedonia now for our next question. And our reporter, Safet
Bisavez, is there. Safet, go ahead.
Q: (No response.)
MR. BERTEL: Safet Bisavez at A-1 TV in Macedonia, please go ahead with
your next question. Okay, we're going to move on to Romanian
television now, where Magdalena Angil is. Magda, go ahead with your
next question.
Q: (No response.)
MR. BERTEL: All right, let's move on to OBN Television. We'll see if
we can get this worked out. Zelko Lakic is at OBN Television. Go ahead
with your next question.
Q: Mr. Swigert, do you expect for Milosevic to use force in the end?
And is international community ready for that?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, I hope he won't resort to force. I think the people
of Serbia and Yugoslavia that are now standing up for the results of
the September 24 election have been quite determined that their
protests be peaceful protests. And I think it would be wrong and also,
in terms of Milosevic's position, were he to respond to this with
force, he would be resoundingly condemned internationally, and I
believe within Yugoslavia, for using force against peaceful
demonstrators.
Q: Next election in this region will be in Kosovo and in Bosnia. What
do you expect from it?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, we hope to see the elections in Kosovo advance the
process of establishing some democratic institutions there on a local
level. We think that's very important in terms of carrying out [UN
Security Council] Resolution 1244, which calls for building democratic
structures inside Kosovo. So we're hopeful that these elections will
move that process forward.
Elections in Bosnia -- well, we've seen a number of elections in
Bosnia over the years, and we're very hopeful that these will continue
the process of reform within Bosnia, strengthen support for the Dayton
process.
And, in fact, if you look around the entire region, this has been a
period of tremendous democratic development, different elections in
different countries. The elections in Croatia, which I referred to at
the start, opened a new chapter, I think, in Croatia's development and
its engagement with the international community. We're hopeful that
the elections in Kosovo and Bosnia will move that process forward as
well.
MR. BERTEL: OBN Television, go ahead if you have another question.
Q: Yeah, I have one more. You said that it's the most important thing
at this moment for Milosevic to step down. Do you really think that he
will be, in the end, in the Hague tribunal?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, we would like to see him, in the end, in the Hague
tribunal. That's certainly where we would like to see him.
MR. BERTEL: When you look at the September 24 election, that was the
first round. Assuming everything had gone fairly on September 24, if
no one had a majority, there'd be a runoff on October 8. The Federal
Election Commission in Belgrade says Kostunica did not get a majority,
so there will be a runoff on October 8. Milosevic is planning to run
in the October 8 election. Should the opposition step up and go
toe-to-toe with Milosevic on October 8, or do you support their
boycott of the runoff election?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, the opposition has said, Jim, that they see no
basis for going to a runoff since, according to their count and the
evidence that they've put forward, they won more than 50 percent of
the votes in the first election on September 24. We support them in
that decision, and I think that the international community stands by
this democratic opposition in the direction that they're pushing right
now in terms of trying to get Milosevic to respect the will of the
Serbian people, respect the results of the September 24 election.
MR. BERTEL: There's a report out this morning that Milosevic might be
trying to negotiate an end-around on this, of sorts, where he would be
the prime minister under a Kostunica presidency. Now, where does the
international community stand on Mr. Milosevic remaining in the
government? He's done this before; moved from Serbian president to
Yugoslavian president. He very well may try to do a maneuver again.
What is the international reaction to that?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, that's a lot of speculation at this point. I've
seen a tremendous number of different scenarios out there about where
Milosevic might try to go, and I know this one has been floated by his
brother. I think that's jumping ahead of things right now. The key
right now is to get the results of the September 24 election respected
and implemented.
MR. BERTEL: Greece has a historical tie to Belgrade. What role have
they been playing in mediating the situation there? Have they been
involved at all?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, the Greeks, I think, have made clear where they
stand, and they stand with the European Union, and I believe the rest
of the international community, pressing for Milosevic to step aside.
You know, if Milosevic tries to do a side-step and maintain his power
in some other way, I think that will be transparent to the Serbian
people as well.
And I think that what you see now is a strong movement for really
bringing about democratic change. They won this election and they're
pressing very hard for this election to be respected. And it is, I
think, a sea change in terms of Serbia's relationship with the world.
It's really Milosevic at this point who's blocking it and keeping the
sanctions in place and keeping Serbia in its current situation of
international isolation.
MR. BERTEL: If the democratic will of the people in Yugoslavia follows
the course and Mr. Milosevic, in fact, steps down, will the efforts of
the international community go beyond the Stability Pact? Will there
be an extra cash infusion to help rebuild the country? There's still a
lot of damage from the war, certainly years of neglect. What is the
plan, once Mr. Milosevic leaves?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, I think when a democratic government comes into
office, they'll find an international community, including the United
States, that's ready to engage in a whole series of issues. And the
doors will be open -- doors that are closed right now. I think that we
made clear where we stand on sanctions. And I think there'll be
efforts to address a series of problems and to work through the
question of assistance.
I think it's a shame. It's really unfortunate that Serbia has not been
and Yugoslavia has not been participating in the Stability Pact,
[they] have not been part of this process of pushing forward on
European integration. And we really look forward to the day when
they're there and they're a full partner in this.
MR. BERTEL: The Europeans have taken the lead in the Stability Pact,
with most of the money coming from European nations. When Serbia
begins to take advantage of the Stability Pact, will the United States
be getting actively involved, or will the lead still be with Europe?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, the Europeans have taken the lead on the Stability
Pact. The U.S. is already quite actively involved. I don't see that
situation as changing. Again, I think the focus right now has got to
be on Milosevic stepping aside, getting the results of the September
24 elections respected, getting a democratic government in place
inside Belgrade. Then there'll be all sorts of possibilities and
prospects for moving forward.
MR. BERTEL: Does the U.S. at this point have any indication of what's
happening within Milosevic's inner circle? Certainly the military is a
wild card, the police force. Is there reason to think that his inner
circle is beginning to crumble?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, we've seen, over the course of the last year, this
inner circle get smaller and smaller and smaller. And I think that
there certainly is a great deal of concern, not just in the inner
circle but in a wider circle, of people that have been supporting
Milosevic and helping to prop up his regime about what this massive
repudiation of Milosevic by the Serbian-Yugoslav people means in terms
of them and their future. So, yes, I do see a process of people moving
away from Milosevic, beginning to think about how they can position
themselves for a democratic Yugoslavia when there's a democratic
government in Belgrade.
MR. BERTEL: You spent three years living in Belgrade. You know the
people. Prior to the war in Kosovo, people of Serbia felt very
strongly about the United States. Since the war, there's been a lot of
anti-American sentiment. In just the couple of minutes we have
remaining, what do you say to the people of Yugoslavia at this point,
at this important juncture in the history of their country?
MR. SWIGERT: Well, historically the United States and Serbia, as well
as Yugoslavia, have had good relations and close ties. I think this
period under Slobodan Milosevic has been an aberration in terms of
that long period of history in which we've had close relations. During
World War II, World War I, we were allies.
I think that there is obviously some strong feelings inside Serbia
regarding what has happened over the last few years, decisions made by
the international community, sanctions, Kosovo. I think that if there
is, however, a democratic government in place inside Belgrade, given
that strong basis of friendship between the Serbian people and the
American people, that history of cooperation between Serbia and the
United States, Yugoslavia and the United States, I think there is a
foundation for moving forward.
And I'm not suggesting that all this will be easy. I think, as I said,
there will be difficult moments. There are difficult moments right
now, I think, inside Serbia in terms of pushing very hard for the vote
of the Serbian-Yugoslav people to be respected. But we admire and we
respect what the people of Serbia and Yugoslavia have done in standing
up for democracy. And these are shared values. These are values that
are held very strongly in the United States, and I believe held
strongly by a majority of the people in Serbia.
MR. BERTEL: And we'll have to wrap things up there. James Swigert,
deputy assistant secretary for European affairs at the U.S. State
Department, thank you so much for being with us today.
MR. SWIGERT: Thank you.
MR. BERTEL: And I want to thank all the journalists who took time to
be with us as well. You can now watch Washington Window whenever you
want just by visiting our Web page on the Internet. The address is
www.ibb.gov/worldnet/washwind/html.
In Washington, I'm Jim Bertel for Washington Window.
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