DATE=9/2/2000
TYPE=ON THE LINE
TITLE=ON THE LINE: AFGHANISTAN IN CRISIS
NUMBER=1-00879
EDITOR=OFFICE OF POLICY - 619-0037
CONTENT=
THEME: UP, HOLD UNDER AND FADE
Anncr: On the Line - a discussion of United
States policy and contemporary issues. This week,
"Afghanistan in Crisis." Here is your host, Robert
Reilly.
Host: Hello and welcome to On the Line. Today,
Afghanistan lies in ruins. Four years of rule by
the Taleban have done little to repair the damage
from two decades of fighting. First the Afghans
defeated the Soviet occupation, but then fell to
fighting among themselves. Though the Taleban
control most of the country, fighting has
continued this summer with the Northern Alliance,
headed by the last Afghan president, Burhanuddin
Rabbani, and Commander Ahmad Shah Masood. The
worst drought in thirty years has added to the
suffering of the Afghan people. Meanwhile,
Taleban-controlled areas continue to provide safe
haven to drug traffickers, and to Usama bin Laden
and his terrorist organization, Al-Qaida.
Joining me today to discuss the situation in
Afghanistan is Karl Inderfurth, U.S. Assistant
Secretary of State for South Asian Affairs.
Welcome to the program.
The fighting has been going on for so long in
Afghanistan that it's almost easy to lose sight of
what it is about. How would you express that?
Inderfurth: The first thing to say is that the
tragedy of Afghanistan continues, as you pointed
out. This is almost of Biblical proportions. They
have seen foreign occupation. They have seen civil
war. They have seen earthquakes. And now, as you
mentioned, they have seen one of the most
devastating droughts in history. This is a great
tragedy. And I think it is very clear that the
United States and the international community must
do whatever it can to help the Afghan people.
Unfortunately, the civil war continues. The
Taleban came to power. They control about eighty-
five percent of the country now. They want to
control the entire country. They see this as a
divine mission, as they interpret Islam. Commander
Masood controls about fifteen percent of the
country and that fighting continues, despite the
efforts of countries, the international community,
and the U-N to bring about a negotiated
settlement.
Host: What about the nature of the fighting. I was
reading an interview with a member of Commander
Masood's forces, who said, "they [meaning the
Taleban] say they are bringing sharia, but it is
not sharia to beat women and children, or to build
terrorist bases." Is this a jihad on both sides of
the conflict over a religious interpretation of
the Muslim law?
Inderfurth: I think that there is a degree of
that. I think, though, that what the Northern
Alliance has said about the Taleban we would agree
with. The repression of women and girls in
Afghanistan is well known. The fact that the
Taleban continues to wage war, will not come to
the negotiating table, which the North Alliance
has said that it would do, the fact that the
Taleban continues to harbor terrorists, including
Usama bin Laden, and the fact that Afghanistan is
now the world's leading produces of opium, the
world's leading narcotics producer - all these
things are black marks against Afghanistan, a
country that just a few years ago was seen in the
international community as having taken a
courageous stand against the Soviet occupation and
getting the world's attention and praise for what
it did. So unfortunately, Afghanistan has moved
from that position just a few short years ago to
one where it is seen increasingly as a threat to
its neighbors and to the international community.
Host: Let's talk a little more about the character
of the Taleban, which I understand is the plural
of Taleb, religious student, and that many of them
were educated in religious schools in Pakistan.
How do they reconcile their very strict
interpretation of Islamic law with, number one,
what you said is the world's largest production of
opium and drug trafficking, and, two, terrorist
bases?
Inderfurth: The Taleban are profiting from the
drug trade; they are not actually growing the
poppy, but they are profiting from it. And on
terrorism, they have provided safe haven to bin
Laden, who, as you know, the United States and the
international community through the United
Nations, believes should be brought to justice for
actions he has taken, including against American
citizens when our embassies were bombed in east
Africa. And of course, many other innocents died,
including several hundred Africans in this
terrorist attack.
Host: Well, you, the U-S government, made an
official extradition request, did you not?
Inderfurth: We have made the request. We have
given the Taleban the indictment, the very long
indictment of bin Laden. And they say they cannot
release him or will not expel him because he is a
guest, because he was a part of that jihad against
the Soviet occupation, which, of course, the
United States also assisted through material
assistance, and others in the region, including
Pakistan. They say that he is a guest, an honored
guest, because of his role then. We tell the
Taleban that he is not an honored guest any
longer, that he is dishonoring Afghanistan because
he is someone who has murdered innocent people,
which is against the Koran, which is against all
religions, and therefore he is dishonoring
Afghanistan and should be expelled. Unfortunately,
they have not taken that action.
Host: Assistant Secretary Inderfurth, what seems
to be quite curious is the Taleban and Mullah Omar
are saying that Usama bin laden is not conducting
any activities. At the same time, the official
spokesman of Al-Qaida is saying, we have been
supplying fighters to Chechnya, which, of course,
upsets Russia to no end.
Inderfurth: It certainly does.
Host: But is seems that they are active not only
in Chechnya, but have worried the other Central
Asian republics, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and even
Iran. Could you amplify on the concerns of the
countries neighboring Afghanistan?
Inderfurth: Well, I think that you have done that
yourself. I think that we have seen evidence of
those being trained in Afghanistan turning up in
Chechnya. We have seen evidence of those being
trained in Afghanistan turning up in the Central
Asian republics. They are certainly turning up in
Kashmir, which is, of course, one of the important
flash points in the world, one that we are very
concerned about and the Indian government is very
concerned about. So it is not only the issue of
terrorism and blowing up embassies -- and, of
course, the Jordanians right before the New Year
uncovered a cell operating in Jordan that was
planning to attack civilian targets - but it is
also supplying jihadists, those who believe that
they will wage holy war against the infidels,
whether it be in Central Asia, in Chechnya, in
Kashmir. All those things are taking place inside
Afghanistan today, and it is of great concern.
Host: What is the interest of Pakistan in this,
because Pakistan has long been a friend of the
United States, and it was through Pakistan that
the United States supplied those billions of
dollars of aid to the Mujahedin when they were
fighting the Soviets?
Inderfurth: This is another one of the tragedies
that we see coming out of the conflict there.
Afghanistan has been a country of concern to
Pakistan for a long time. They are neighbors; they
have a very long border. Pakistan is rightfully
concerned about stability on its northern border.
We don't dispute that. And Pakistan has supported
the Taleban. It is one of only three countries in
the world that has officially endorsed and
supported the Taleban. We believe that many of
those that are now in positions in the Taleban
have received their religious training in the
madrassahs in Pakistan. This group, the Taleban,
came to power promising order and stability, which
is something that Pakistan wanted to see.
Unfortunately, the way they have imposed that
order, their actions since taking control of most
of the country, we believe is now not only
threatening to others, but to Pakistan itself. And
there is a concern about what is called the
Talebanization, or making more radical, Pakistan
itself. So we have urged Pakistan to use its
influence on the Taleban to try to move it to the
negotiating table for a negotiated settlement of
the conflict, away from harboring terrorists, away
from profiting from narcotics, and certainly away
from its treatment, its present harsh and
abominable treatment, of women. And the Islam that
is practiced by Pakistan is not that which is
practiced in Afghanistan. There is a difference
between militant Islam and moderate Islam. And
what our concerns are, quite frankly, have little
to do with Islam or the Afghan people, both of
which we honor and respect. It has to do with the
pollicies and practices of the Taleban.
Host: I just want to remind our audience for a
moment that this is On the Line with Robert
Reilly, and today we are discussing the crisis in
Afghanistan with Karl Inderfurth, Assistant
Secretary of State for South Asian Affairs. Mr.
Inderfurth, nonetheless, according to press
reports, Pakistan continues to support the
Taleban, and according to these same reports, the
Northern Alliance is receiving military aid and
equipment from Tajikistan and Russia. Does that
comport with what you know?
Inderfurth: Clearly, both sides in the conflict
are receiving support from outside powers. I think
that that will continue, unfortunately, until the
parties themselves resolve that they will sit down
at the table.
Host: What can induce them to do that ?
Inderfurth: I think that one thing that could
perhaps induce the Taleban is recognition that
they are beginning to lose support internally.
Host: And why is that?
Inderfurth: Because I think that the imposing of
their brand of order is increasingly resisted by
many of the Afghan people. They are finding it
very hard to find draftees to go fight up north.
They are finding pockets of resistance in other
parts of the country. They have had one of their
governors assassinated not very long ago. They had
the escape from jail of one of the leading
opposition leaders in Herat. I think that they are
seeing that, number one, they are losing support
internally and, number two, they are increasingly
isolated externally. The U-N Security Council has
placed sanctions on the Taleban until they allow
bin Laden to be brought to justice. And those
sanctions are not targeted against the Afghan
people. They are very much specifically targeted
against the Taleban, against the national Ariana
airlines, against bank accounts, against assets.
We have made it very clear that the sanctions are
not intended to impede humanitarian aid to the
Afghan people or private trade taking place,
because the Afghan people have suffered enough.
They do not need to suffer from the imposition of
international sanctions.
Host: Speaking of the Taleban's loss of support
inside Afghanistan, there was that rather
extraordinary statement by the Taleban leader,
Mullah Omar, that the drought was due to the
Afghan people themselves, because of their lack of
rigor in making their religious observances, and
their griping about the Taleban rule. Do you have
any sense of how such an accusation against the
Afghan people was received by them?
Inderfurth: I don't have any solid information on
that, but I think that is a further indication of
how out of touch the Taleban is with the reality
of Afghanistan today. The Afghan people are
suffering, and they are suffering because of the
policies of the Taleban. And to suggest that the
drought is a function of the Afghan people not
being devout, I think, gives you a sense of how
out of touch they are. Again, this is a tragedy
that continues. I want to make one very important
point, though, because the United States continues
to try to do what we can in terms of humanitarian
assistance for Afghanistan. This year, the U-S
contribution will be over one hundred million
dollars, to include food and housing, education,
health programs, assistance for clearing those
deadly land mines which have been left over from
past conflicts, [and] refugee assistance. Out of
every ten dollars of food aid to Afghanistan from
the international community, nine dollars comes
from the U-S. We are trying to do what we can
under very difficult circumstances, and we are
working through very courageous international
organizations. And of course, we are doing this at
a time when the Taleban will often place greater
restrictions on the provision of assistance to the
Afghan people.
Host: If I may mention that bizarre episode from
earlier this summer, there were the bakeries in
Kabul, operated by women, that provided bread to
widows and orphans that were shut down by the
Taleban. Subsequently, they were reopened because
it seemed to create a scandal.
Inderfurth: It did and, fortunately, the Taleban
reversed themselves very quickly, which we saw as
a positive step. But of course, it followed a very
negative, repressive action that they had taken.
These are the people that are suffering the very
most, the women, the widows and the rest. They
can't work; they can't get an education; they
can't get adequate health care.
Host: They can't leave their houses.
Inderfurth: They can't leave their houses.
Attempting to make over half of the Afghan
population into non-persons is something that is
incomprehensible not only to us, but to others,
including many Muslim countries. So this is not
the U-S versus the Taleban. This is the
international community, of which we are an
important part, but all of us expressing concerns
about what is happening in Afghanistan today.
Host: Is it too early to say that these sanctions
are having any effect or that they may have an
effect?
Inderfurth: So far, the Taleban has refused to
comply with the U-N resolution that was adopted
almost a year ago in October. We are looking at
further measures in the Security Council. I think
that there is a legitimate concern by those
working in Afghanistan in the humanitarian
organizations that we not consider any further
measures that would make matters worse for the
Afghan people. And I can assure you that anything
that we do will not have that effect. But it will
be time in October to review the record of non-
compliance by the Taleban and to see what else
could be done. I think perhaps an arms embargo,
which would be very difficult to enforce. We are
not suggesting that we can seal the borders here.
But an arms embargo against the Taleban for its
continued refusal to adhere to the U-N resolution
- that may be something we look at, and perhaps
further steps to isolate the Taleban leadership.
That is a possibility.
Host: Among the countries that have recognized the
Taleban, you mentioned another U-S ally, Saudi
Arabia.
Inderfurth: But they have downgraded their
relations. And the three are Pakistan, Saudi
Arabia and the United Arab Emirates. Saudi Arabia
is very concerned about the situation in
Afghanistan and very concerned that the Taleban
has not been more forthcoming in terms of going to
the negotiating table to find a solution. One
thing that we are doing is trying to support all
Afghan parties that are legitimately interested in
bringing this conflict to an end peacefully,
including some of those that live outside the
country. There is the so-called Rome process that
is organized around the former king of
Afghanistan. There have been groups meeting in
Cyprus and in Bonn. Many of them are calling for
something called a Loya Jirga, which is a grand
council, a traditional Afghan way of resolving
differences and reaching some consensus. The
United States is supporting that, as are others in
the international community, as just one part of a
larger effort to see Afghanistan and a broad-based
government established there, not one that is
dominated by only one faction.
Host: Would you say that that is an objective
that, even stated that generally, is shared by the
six-plus-two group, meaning the six countries on
the borders of Afghanistan, plus the United States
and Russia? Do they all want that broad-based
government?
Inderfurth: The objective is there of all in the
so-called six-plus-two group. Unfortunately, that
group has not been very effective in part because
some members of that group, although they have
said they want to see a broad based government
established, they continue to provide one faction
or the other with military assistance. So the
group itself has some internal divisions, which
has made it less than a successful U-N mechanism
for resolving this. But at some point, the six-
plus-two and the broader international community
will all have to help. When I say that, I mean, in
terms of helping, if there could be a peaceful
solution here, there should be some form of an
international conference to talk about
reconstruction and other forms of assistance,
because this country -- and I have been to it on
several occasions -- is completely devastated. It
looks like the photographs and the film that you
would see after World War Two, after the bombing
campaigns. You have the beggars on the streets.
You have little of the infrastructure of
electricity, of water. There has been no
reconstruction.
Host: In closing, may I ask you about the refugee
situation, because one of the Taleban claims to
legitimacy is that they control most of the
country and that people are living in peace. Yet
aren't there more than two million refugees still
outside the country and hundreds of thousands
displaced within it?
Inderfurth: Yes, the refugee situation is still
one of the continuing effects of that war of
liberation against the Soviet occupation. And many
refugees have simply refused to go home to
Afghanistan because of the continuing civil war.
So you still have very large refugee populations
both in Pakistan and Iran. Iran is also suffering
from the spillover effect of that. And Iran, quite
frankly, has an important role that it can, and we
hope will, play in bringing this conflict to an
end. The Iranians can play a positive role there,
as they have within the six-plus-two context. So
the refuges are still there. The war continues and
the tragedy continues. And we hope that, before
long, it will come to an end.
Host: I'm afraid that's all the time we have
this week. I would like to thank our guest -- Karl
Inderfurth, Assistant Secretary of State for South
Asian Affairs -- for joining me to discuss the
crisis in Afghanistan. This is Robert Reilly for
On the Line.
31-Aug-2000 17:09 PM EDT (31-Aug-2000 2109 UTC)
NNNN
Source: Voice of America
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