22 June 2000
Transcript: Albright Says RUF Leader Foday Sankoh Must Go
(Albright June 18 CNN interview with Jesse Jackson) (4360) Revolutionary United Front leader Foday Sankoh has "lost his chance ... to be a part of the system" in Sierra Leone and "he has to go," says Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. In a television interview from Washington with civil rights activist the Reverend Jesse Jackson on June 18, Secretary Albright made plain that now "we need to be able to support a democratic system." Asked if the United States would support a war tribunal to try Sankoh -- Sierra Leone's President Kabbah has asked the United Nations to help him put one together -- Albright said: "We support a tribunal of some kind. And I think you know, originally there were amnesties for those [crimes committed] before the Lome Peace Accord. There's no amnesty for the kinds of crimes that have been committed since, and so we would support that." Reminded by Jackson that Sankoh missed "a glorious moment" to come into Sierra Leone's government with elections scheduled for next year, Albright said: "Well, he did lose a huge opportunity. In other places in Africa -- Mozambique, for instance -- there was a power-sharing arrangement. And there it worked. And there it was possible for people that had fought each other in a civil war to work together. Foday Sankoh never understood that. He lost his chance. "And, by the way," she added, "I think there has been a complete misunderstanding about our role for the Lome agreement. It's the West Africans who thought that it was a good agreement, and they are the ones who believed that it was useful to see whether Foday Sankoh could be a part of it." In a wide-ranging interview released by the State Department on June 21, Albright also commented on the Middle East peace process, the situation in the Middle East with the death of Syria's President Assad and the accession of his son Bashar al-Assad as president, talks between North and South Korea, on China, Russia and other topics, such as world HIV/AIDS crisis. Following is a State Department transcript of the interview: (begin transcript) U.S. DEPARTMENT OF STATE Office of the Spokesman June 21, 2000 INTERVIEW OF SECRETARY OF STATE MADELEINE K. ALBRIGHT ON CNN'S BOTH SIDES WITH THE REVEREND JESSE JACKSON June 18, 2000 Washington, D.C. REVEREND JACKSON: Welcome to Both Sides. My guest today joins us for the very first time on this program. She is US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Secretary Albright, welcome to our program. SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Very good to be with you, Reverend Jackson. REVEREND JACKSON: We have a lot of ground to cover today, so lets get started. In a few days you will be going back to the Middle East. Do you have any doubt now that President Clinton and Barak and Arafat will be meeting together again sometime soon, perhaps in the summit? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, we have to figure that out. That's exactly why the President has asked me to go, to make a determination if we have a basis to go to a summit or whether we have to work more, because there still are gaps between the two sides and it's very important to be able to narrow those, and then make an assessment as to the timing of the summit and whether we actually have the basis for it. REVEREND JACKSON: Do you think we are close enough to have a summit? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that it's very hard to tell you at this moment because at this stage we are still talking to the negotiators, and because they are dealing with really earth-shaking issues for them. These are the most important issues for the Israelis and the Palestinians. There are gaps that are still quite wide, and we need to see how much we can bring them together. REVEREND JACKSON: We've come a long ways in 20 years. We've gone from a no-talk policy to a less-talk policy to a framework for peace - land for peace. What would help you determine to recommend to the President that we should have a summit? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I think what we have to do, because this is not -- you can't kind of have several of these summits. You need to have a sense that you can accomplish something. And I think we need to see whether there's a chance to resolve issues that have to do with borders, with settlements, with refugees, with the status of Jerusalem. Those were the issues that were the hardest ones that, when they talked in Oslo, that they set aside for the final status issues. So, as you pointed out, we've changed our policies a lot. They didn't -- any of these people didn't talk to each other when we were all on the lawn at the White House and Prime Minister Rabin shook hands with Chairman Arafat, with President Clinton with his arms behind them. That was earth-shaking and now we have to see if we can close these final gaps. REVEREND JACKSON: We need a compromise. Peace is risky and was risky. But peace has sweeter fruit and war really is no longer an alternative. Is there some hard line position that's kind of keeping us from making the last jump to the risk for peace? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, the point here is that the President can do a tremendous amount, and I can help and Ambassador Ross can help, but ultimately it's the leaders themselves, Prime Minister Barak and Chairman Arafat, that have to make the really hard decisions. And what I said when I was out there the last time - and you know this so well from all the issues that you've been involved in - both sides can't have 100 percent of what they want. And that compromise is important. And they're the ones that have to make those hard decisions. The President can't do it for them. REVEREND JACKSON: Last weekend, an Arab passed. Mr. Assad passed. And you were there in the Middle East. You've met with his son, Bashar al-Assad. What were your first impressions? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, first of all, I've been to that palace before, to meet President Assad. And as you saw it, it's very imposing. You've been there before, too. And to be there with his son, who is a young man, 34, I had the sense that the transition was moving as smoothly as it could. But weren't you just struck by the black flags that we saw when we came in and the sense of mourning and -- REVEREND JACKSON: I was also struck by his bent towards future. He kept saying, "We must talk. We're going to pursue peace. I want to be candid." It seemed that in his talks, that peace was inevitable. The question was "how to," as opposed to "whether to." SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that's right. But the question is what he will be able to do. He is clearly somebody who has a different outlook. What's so interesting about the Middle East is that we're moving to a new generation. There are a lot of younger leaders in their 30s. King Abdallah of Jordan is another example. The King of Morocco is coming here next week, and he's in his 30s. So there's this whole new group that have been educated in the West. And Dr. Bashar has been. I had a very interesting discussion with one of the ministers who was escorting me around. He talked about how Dr. Bashar Assad used health as a wedge to try to educate people. He created health villages and really wanted to have contact with the people. We'll have to see. I think he made -- as you pointed out, I think he made a pretty good impression on us. REVEREND JACKSON: You know, as I reflect when meeting with his father, I cannot imagine former President Assad having a computer. I cannot imagine his son not having a computer. They assigned a big medical doctor, who wants to take the computers into the villages for health care. He wants to end the label of a terrorist state. He wants economic investment. All these are the fruits of peace and forward thinking. Just maybe this will allow -- maybe the country is ready to make that move because war is no longer really an alternative between Syria and Israel. SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I hope that he understands that, because the truth is that former President Assad held out so long and didn't really move at a time that we thought that there was an opportunity. So the question is whether his son will make the move to peace. He has to operate, obviously, within the culture that he has. But Syria needs to be a part of the modern world. And the people of Syria, I think, would benefit greatly if in fact they were able to participate more in modern technology and be a part of what's going on. REVEREND JACKSON: Well, just maybe the general brought stability and the doctor will bring peace and reconciliation. We'll be right back in a moment to a bit about now what are the new prospects for peace in Russia. We'll be right back. (Commercial Break.) REVEREND JACKSON: Welcome back. We're talking to Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. President Clinton wants to -- at least put on some debt schedule Russia, some relief on their debt. Senator Helms says that he does not want to, because we might be helping Russia finance its Chechnya war. What can be done to convince Senator Helms that giving Russia some relief is in our global interest? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: I think it's very important for us to see a stable Russia; to be able to deal with its economic problems; and to be able to take a responsible part, in terms of relating to us and to Europe. I think that it's -- the President spent a lot of time talking to President Putin about the importance of dealing with their issues of corruption, of having a good tax law, doing various things that would put their economy into shape. And they need help, I think, in terms of restructuring their economy. I don't think we want to see a weak Russia. I think we want to see a Russia that is put together and able to carry out its responsibilities. REVEREND JACKSON: Does Senator Helms appreciate that if Russia's economy collapses, and the hardliners take back over ideologically, what it would mean for Europe and Africa, what it would mean for the whole world? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, it's hard to speak for Senator Helms, but I think that we need to understand that we need to help the reform movement in Russia. That doesn't mean necessarily always giving money directly to the Russian Government. In fact, the money that we give to them is primarily for reduction of a threat of the nuclear weapons, and then we give some money to local governments and various organizations to try to develop their civil society. And I think you're absolutely right: We don't want to see the hardliners take hold in Russia; we want to see Russia feel confident and be a part of the democratic system. REVEREND JACKSON: Let's skip to sub-Saharan the subject of Africa and a vicious war in Sierra Leone for nearly ten years, maybe the ugliest war -- the maiming of people, cutting off arms and women's breasts and ears and beheading and all of that. A democracy was overthrown and then it was recaptured again. Sierra Leone needs real help for stability and security. What will we offer them? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I agree with you. It's the worst situation. I was there and I went to one of these places where they brought people who had no limbs. And to shake hands with somebody and then have them have no hand is just -- it's a brutal operation that went on there. What we have to do now is work through the United Nations and with the West African forces to try to provide some stability there militarily. Foday Sankoh lost his chance - he is the leader of the RUF - to be a part of the system. He has to go, and we need to be able to support a democratic system. REVEREND JACKSON: President Kabbah of Sierra Leone now wants the UN to help him put together a war tribunal against Foday Sankoh. Does the US support that position? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: We support a tribunal of some kind. And I think, you know, originally there were amnesties for those before the Lome Peace Accord. There's no amnesty for the kinds of crimes that have been committed since, and so we would support that. REVEREND JACKSON: Sankoh missed a glorious moment. They could've killed him. They chose not to kill him. They gave him a chance to come into the government. The Lome Accords, in fact, were working. 23,000 combatants all turned in their weapons. The elections were scheduled for next year. And then, all of a sudden, it seems that the peacemakers pulled out, and they sensed that Sierra Leone was weak on the ground and the UN got too close to the diamond mine, and they just erupted and took 500 UN troops. SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, he did lose a huge opportunity. In other places in Africa - Mozambique, for instance - there was a power-sharing arrangement. And there it has worked. And there it was possible for people that had fought each other in a civil war to work together. Foday Sankoh never understood that. He lost his chance. And, by the way, I think there has been a complete misunderstanding about our role for the Lome Agreement. It's the West Africans who thought that it was a good agreement, and they are the ones who believed that it was useful to see whether Foday Sankoh could be a part of it. He -- REVEREND JACKSON: Really, the ECOWAS, West African heads of state and the UN all recommended that they spare Sankoh's life, to really give peace one last chance. And seemly it was working until there was a shift on the ground, and then it took the UN troops. I sense that they underestimated the world's response to their capturing UN troops and holding them hostage and, in fact, killing some of them. SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: I think that's true, because I think that the UN acts on behalf of all of us. And I think that when people see a force that has gone in to keep the peace captured, then I think there's a sense of revulsion about it. And Foday Sankoh also was clearly concerned only about himself and having control over the diamonds. And the truth is that I think it was right to try it, as you said, because it has worked in places like Mozambique and Namibia. And I think it now is evident that Foday Sankoh has no place within that system. REVEREND JACKSON: It worked in South Africa, as well. SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: And South Africa. REVEREND JACKSON: But the point now is that when our European allies are in trouble - this is a big rub, it seems - that we know democracies requires security, stability, free elections, transparency of money and economic justice, economic investment. But for Sierra Leone, it seems that they're not getting the support for their democracy - the moneys that they need, the infrastructure they need. What would it take for the UN to intervene for Sierra Leoneans, as we have for the Kosovarians? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I think that, you know, they're rightfully - I think we probably haven't all - the international community - paid enough attention to Africa, the conflicts of Africa. I believe that we need to be supportive of trying to get peace there. Ethiopia and Eritrea, they have now come to an agreement. They're going to need a peacekeeping operation. And the terrible part about this, Reverend Jackson, is that we do not have the funds given to us by Congress. All of sudden, there's this idea that we should put a cap on the peacekeeping funds, as if we could predict ahead of time where there would be conflicts. We need to have the money to support the United Nations, because we can't have a choice of doing nothing or doing everything ourselves. REVEREND JACKSON: So Congress is holding back the resources to invest in African democracy, unlike European democracies? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: To put it quite bluntly, there have been holds on some of the resources for the - to get us out of these African - or get them out of it. REVEREND JACKSON: Well, it seems that some of those resources, some of them, are minimally being kind of freed up now. Senator Judd Gregg made some move last week but, even war aside, there is this ravaging AIDS crisis. And President Clinton has said, Vice President Gore said, that it is a global crisis, a threat to national security. South Africa's population life expectancy will go from 60 down to 40 within five years. What are we doing right now to try to cut off the devastating impact of AIDS in Africa and its growth? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, we have really pushed in order to get greater funding for this; to try to have an integrated approach in the Administration; to deal with other countries, to tell them that the AIDS crisis is a national security crisis. You know, people do not understand that national security in countries, or security, is threatened by not just nuclear weapons, but also by disruptions and death caused by terrible diseases like AIDS. So we are pushing within our own government to get a larger budget for the AIDS, to fight the AIDS pandemic, and then get the other countries to understand. REVEREND JACKSON: We'll be right back in a moment. Will the demilitarized zone between North and South Korea finally become a peace zone, 50 years later? We'll be right back. (Commercial Break.) REVEREND JACKSON: Welcome back to our first interview with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. Is it morning time in Korea - North and South Korea are smoking peace pipes? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, it's totally fascinating that they were able to kind of fulfill what Kim Dae Jung, the president of South Korea, wanted to do with his sunshine policy. And we have to see. It clearly was a historic summit. And we're going to follow up and see how the various parts of the agreements - which are very general - that they've made will be carried out. REVEREND JACKSON: And you're going to Korea soon. North or South Korea, or both? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: I'm going to go to South Korea because I think that what Kim Dae Jung has done is quite remarkable, and I want to follow up with him and hear what they have to say. REVEREND JACKSON: Do you think that reconciliation after all these years is really possible? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: I think we have seen reconciliation in other places. Who would have thought that East and West Germany could get together? And I think we'll have to see. North Korea has been isolated for a long time. We were talking about the fact we've both been to the demilitarized zone. It's like being on the other side of the moon. I mean, really incredible. And it's the last vestige of the Cold War, and if they can talk to each other, it's a big step. REVEREND JACKSON: If North Korea and South Korea work out that deal, does it mean that North Korea comes off the terrorist state list? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, it's a long way before we can make any decisions like that, but this is a very important first step. And there's no other way to put it than to say this was a historic summit and we have to follow out the pieces of it. And, you know, we have a lot of other dealings with North Korea. We have missile talks. We need to make sure that what was known as the Agreed Framework on containing their nuclear programs, that that is able to be pursued and carried out. So there are a lot of aspects to the North Korean relationship that we have. REVEREND JACKSON: So, more talks, more trade and prospects for more peace in the Koreas? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I think so. And what we've done that's brand new is we have a process whereby South Korea, the United States and Japan really cooperate a lot in discussing how we can move forward on this important -- REVEREND JACKSON: We're doing that now with China. I mean, one-fourth of the human race. Our basic argument is that more trade, more talk; you don't fight with people that you trade with. It's beginning to break through for China. Why not try that same policy for Cuba? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, I get asked that question a lot, and I think that we can't have the same policies for every country. Cuba is a very special case for the United States. It's 90 miles off our shore. It is of great concern in terms of their systemic repression of their people. What we have tried to do - Helms-Burton is the law of the land; it's the embargo. But we have specifically tried to expand the space for the people of Cuba by doing a set of measures, trying to make sure that they get more remittances, that there are charter flights that go between places. REVEREND JACKSON: That's the real point. Last year, 140,000 Cuban Americans went back and forth to Cuba, and no incidents. The direct telephone calls now. CNN is in Cuba now. More churches are being built. The Congress is now trying to get food and medicine to Cuba. Does that suggest that the wall really is coming down, or falling? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: I think we have to keep pursuing, through ways that we can, to the people-to-people contacts and trying to expand the space for the people. I have the greatest admiration for the Cuban people who have lived under this system. Since the Pope went, we were looking to see whether there was a way to expand the people-to-people programs. And I think the people of Cuba deserve to be able to express their views. They need to have an election in Cuba. REVEREND JACKSON: We'll come right back with our final segment with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. (Commercial break.) REVEREND JACKSON: We're in our final segment with Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. A few days ago, Secretary - I mean, Senator Helms, who leads the Madeleine Albright cheering squad, here's what he had to say: SENATOR HELMS: "I'd give her A for effort. She has tried hard. She has worked hard. She hasn't answered as much mail as she ought to, not only to me. I have to dial up and call up down there, fuss and fight and everything else, to get answers to simple questions. But she has tried, and she is a dedicated lady, but I have an idea that she'll be glad when next January rolls around herself." REVEREND JACKSON: That is your cheerleader. What do you have to say to that? (Laughter.) SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, you know, we have actually worked together on a few things that we agree on, which was reorganizing the State Department, and Chairman Helms was terrific about NATO expansion. We disagree on some things, but we have always agreed to disagree agreeably. But I'm not sure I'm ready for January. I've got a lot to do and we still have a lot of time, and I think that we have to use every minute of this Administration and President Clinton's amazing ability to deal with people to move some -- REVEREND JACKSON: In these closing days and minutes of this Administration, if you had the three things you'd really want to go back real fast and kind of make them happen, what would those three things be? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Well, we would very much like to see the Middle East peace. I think that there is an opportunity that doesn't come around very often, and President Clinton has the trust of the people of Israel and of Chairman Arafat; they have an amazing relationship. REVEREND JACKSON: So that's the first one. SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: I would like to see the Balkan Peninsula integrated into Europe and to make the people of Serbia have the ability to think for themselves. And I would like to see less proliferation of nuclear weapons and some of the problems between India and Pakistan resolved. REVEREND JACKSON: What's your third point? SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: I think the third is we need - I would like to see some resolution of the conflict in Africa and people understanding that what is happening in Africa is of national interest to the United States and that humanitarian issues are of national security interest to the United States. We're going to work hard on that. REVEREND JACKSON: With Ethiopia and Eritrea, the Congo, Sierra Leone, AIDS. SECRETARY ALBRIGHT: Sierra Leone. And we need money. That's the third thing here is we need money in order to be able to deal with these heart-wrenching issues. REVEREND JACKSON: I want to thank you for being our very special guest this week. As we pursue a new world order, a new global order, clearly we must think as world citizens. We must honor international law, human rights, self-determination, economic justice, be consistent. It's in our interest to seek peace. See you next Sunday at 5:30 p.m. Eastern. Again, thanks for watching, and keep hope alive. (end transcript) (Distributed by the Office of International Information Programs, U.S. Department of State. Web site: http://usinfo.state.gov)
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