28.01.2000 15:00 ON THE SITUATION IN THE NORTH CAUCASUS
VALERY L. MANILOV - Colonel General, First Deputy Chief of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces
MANILOV: The visible positive changes have become irreversible in a number of districts of Chechnya liberated from the bandits, namely in the Nadterechny, Naursky, Shelkovskaya, the rural Grozny and Gudermes districts.
The authorities made up of respected people, approved by the teip (clan) leaders, are functioning, enterprises are resuming operation and substantial measures have been taken to restore agriculture there. Hundreds of schools and over 100 medical establishments have resumed operation. The majority of settlements in these regions have electricity, heat and gas. New jobs are being created. We are creating a forerunner of the way of life there that must be eventually restored throughout Chechnya.
The second echelon runs up to Duba-Yurt and Vedeno, where settlements have been liberated but life is far from normal yet. They lack electricity, heat and foods. The people are staging demonstrations there and don't know whom to believe, the federal centre or the fighters.
The third echelon is the mountain part of Chechnya, which is largely controlled by the bandit groups yet and where life is especially difficult for the peaceful population. The people live in the zone of hostilities, and no matter how hard we try to protect them, it is an impossible task.
There are two zones of hostilities. The first is Grozny, where fierce fighting is still under way. A substantial group of fighters is deployed there, and those who underrate its ability to fight simply don't know what they are talking about. About a half of this 3,000-strong group are mercenaries, who are fighting for very good money. No wonder they fight to the last bullet, because they have no alternative. The other half of that group would like to stop fighting, but they continue to fight on pain of death.
Our units have approached Minutka Square from the direction of Khankala. The square is not changing hands, as some people say. Our troops are consistently moving towards it. They occupied the high-rise, commanding buildings in the 15th neighbourhood, thus saving the troops from snipers, and have been keeping the bandits under constant fire.
The second zone of serious fighting is the entrance to the Argun gorge outside Duba-Yurt, where the bandit groups are trying to break through to the north, escape from the gorge and move into the mountains. But our troops are successfully resisting these attempts, and the bandits are sustaining heavy losses.
The situation in the western regions is more tranquil. All settlements in the vicinity of the Vedeno gorge and around Vedeno have been blockaded, and local fighting is under way. The Botlikh direction has been cut off. The administrative border with Daghestan, into which the bandits are trying to escape in order to stage subversive and terrorist acts, has been blockaded, too.
The main Itum-Kale - Shatili road in the south has been sealed. The border guars are acting highly professionally. All loopholes, which whole groups could use, have been closed.
The Interior Troops are successfully fulfilling their tasks, with due consideration for the recent bitter experience of Argun and Shatili. They are more carefully and regularly checking passports and weapons and explosives depots.
The bandit warlords are doing their best to maximally draw out the agony, hoping to get foreign assistance and thinking that Russia will be forced to negotiate with the terrorists and stop the hostilities. In this case they would be able to restore the regime and spread its influence to the whole of Chechnya. No way.
QUESTION: You said that life has been normalised in some regions. Why cannot you allow accredited journalists to see for themselves and to tape this new life?
MANILOV: There is such possibility; you are free to tape whatever you like. But the authorities are responsible for the safety of journalists. You are to guarantee free movement in the liberated zone with due regard for the security measures which we must take under international law.
Here is a wonderful story: The opening of a school in Kurchaloi. It does not have heat yet, but you should see how eager the children are to attend it, how willingly they study. Isn't this a good story? The eyes of these children, the happiness of mothers who can send their children to school, for the first time after many years. I must say that the hunger for knowledge, for education is incredible in the Chechen Republic.
DEP-LAIM.RU SERVER: You mentioned a hundred sites supporting Chechen bandits. Can you name at least ten of them?
MANILOV: I said that at least a hundred sites are facilitating a direct or indirect support for the terrorists. We will give you the names of at least 17 sites, which are supporting the terrorists most energetically.
A SPANISH NEWSPAPER: Will you comment on the mass media reports to the effect that the Russian troops are sustaining major losses?
MANILOV: I have a clear-cut attitude to this. Those mass media that question official information, which we provide openly and consistently, are misinforming the public. The information provided to the General Staff is collected at all possible levels, beginning with unit or platoon commanders in the battlefield and ending with hospitals and burial sites. All these elements are brought together and verified; we check all first names, patronymics and family names. Only after that is this information issued to the public. This is hard work. And the guilty parties bear responsibility for each mistake and shortcoming, which are still possible.
TV CENTRE: You said there are 3,000 fighters in Grozny. And how many are in the Argun gorge? Is it true that Maskhadov's headquarters is in the Argun dorge? That Udugov is in Turkey? Where is Basayev? And how many fighters are resisting the Russian troops now?
MANILOV: There are some 3,000 fighters in Grozny. We determine their resistance in terms of fire intensity, the movement of detected groups, the number of fired anti-tank grenades, bursts of fire, and the like.
There are 6,000-8,000 fighters in the mountain regions in the south.
There is no Maskhadov headquarters, nor can there be any. There is probably a group of people who are trying to guide the process. They are not doing well, because they have major communications problems. Since we are monitoring the movement of all bandit chieftains, they fear to remain in one place for a long time. Judging by everything, Khattab, Maskhadov, and possibly Basayev are in the southern mountain region.
As for Udugov, I cannot say that he is in Turkey, but he is clearly somewhere abroad where he is trying to organise information warfare.
CBS NEWS: Is it true that the Russian forces use the Tos-1 system in Chechnya? If so, does not this contradict international conventions?
MANILOV: I have no information about the use of the so-called Buratino systems. As for the Shmel systems, they are used above all by the terrorists.
REN-TV NEWS: The General Staff says there are 25,000-26,000 terrorists. You say you have liquidated 10,000 of them, and many are probably wounded. Who is so fiercely resisting the federal forces then? It's like the dragon with several heads: you cut off one head, and another immediately grows in its place. Where do the terrorists get reinforcements?
MANILOV: The losses and the strength of the bandits are not static figures. If the initial figure was 25,000-26,000, this does not mean that it has not changed. If we liquidated 10,000, then the bandits should have 15,000 troops now. Before we sealed the border, mercenaries arrived en masse in Chechnya. According to some estimates, some 2,000-3,000 mercenaries arrived during the counter-terrorist operation. In addition, they recruit locals on pain of death or by making them tempting proposals. This is why the figures keep changing. But the core of many bandit groups, made up of better-trained mercenaries, remains largely intact. And the bandit groups are built up around this core.
RADIO LIBERTY: It has been reported that our journalist Andrei Babitsky was detained by the federal forces in Urus-Martan and is kept in a cellar. Will you comment, please? It was also reported today that the deployment time of the SOBR and OMON units of the Interior Ministry is running out, but they have received an oral order to stay. A half of them intend to leave all the same. Please, comment on this news, too.
MANILOV: I don't have precise information about Andrei Babitsky. As for SOBR and OMON, the rotation scheme should be reviewed, because two months are clearly not enough for the adjustment to combat conditions. I am sure that none of them would leave the region without order. If a decision is made to prolong their stay, I am sure they will stay and continue working.
THE GERMAN ZDF TV: What are the federal losses as of today? Sergei Yastrzhembsky said foreign correspondents could work not only in the liberated zones of Chechnya, but also in the zone of hostilities. Is this true?
MANILOV: Let's begin with losses. We lost 873 in dead since August, when fighting broke out in Daghestan, including 140 officers, 21 NCOs and 712 sergeants and privates. A total of 2,376 have been wounded, including 330 officers and 2,046 privates and sergeants. Since the beginning of the military operation in Chechnya, we lost 755 in dead, including 114 officers, 21 NCOs and 620 sergeants and privates. In the same period, 2,095 were wounded, including 253 officers and 1,842 sergeants and privates. Of them, 819 men and officers have returned to their units.
The mass media and other organisations asked us to publish the lists of the deceased, but our legislation and normative legal acts prohibit this until the end of hostilities. Maybe we will find new arguments for making a different decision and publishing the lists during the hostilities, but this would be done for the sole purpose of precluding speculations and the fanning of tensions around this tragic, painful question for the people.
The accreditation mechanism has been streamlined and we should start applying it. There will be no hindrances on the part of the General Staff. I daily issue permissions to the leading mass media to visit the fighting zone, the troops and peaceful settlements. Let's work together to improve this practice, the more so that it has been granted federal significance.
TELE-SPETSNAZ COMPANY: A popular newspaper published the following today: "We see a highly important detail in the daily TV reports from Chechnya, but we don't seem to notice it. Privates keep saying: We must end by the elections, but we will hardly manage". But the Acting President said no deadline had been set, that the military would make the decision depending on the situation. Will you comment, please?
MANILOV: No commentaries are necessary. How can a private judge about the development of the situation on a frontline that is wider than the zone of his unit or platoon? And platoon, company or regiment commanders cannot judge about the actions of the whole of the Joint Grouping of forces.
Servicemen do not think about elections when fighting; they think about surviving and fulfilling their tasks.
BLUMBERG AGENCY: Will you arrest or liquidate terrorists after you win?
MANILOV: To begin with, I would not talk about our victory now. Because it will be the victory of not the federal forces, but of the whole people, including the Chechen people who had been enslaved by a bandit regime. Our goal is not a military victory, the more so as it will not gain us anything. One wise politician said: Bayonets can win power, but they cannot keep it. This is why we are simultaneously taking political and socio-economic measures, which can ensure a genuine victory over the inhuman regime.
We have a list of warlords. And they will be treated as stipulated in the Russian legislation. Those who will survive and be captured will be tried by a democratic court, which will pass its verdict. And the amnesty covers those who are not regarded as bandits and terrorists. It has been announced and is being applied.
AKM NEWS AGENCY: Will you change the nature of the military operation in connection with the Council of Europe statements?
MANILOV: The Council of Europe has no clear view of the nature, scale and essence of the terrorist group that is resisting the federal forces. It is a well-organised, armed, trained and paid army. This means that only army units can successfully fight it. This is why we will continue acting to liquidate the bandit groups on the basis of two fundamental principles: minimise losses among troops and the peaceful population, and ruination. This is the tri-dimensional formula, by which we will act.
As we fulfil the tasks of the counter-terrorist operation and suppress resistance, the quantity factors will be replaced by quality factors, meaning that the composition and strength of the army group will be reduced. When we neutralise the basic bandit forces, one all-arms group, one group of the Interior Troops and one frontier group, whose task will be to defend the border, will remain in Chechnya. They will ensure the protection of human rights and security on that territory.
ORT: Chechen fighters say terrorist and subversive acts could be organised in the rear of the Joint Grouping of federal forces. Do you think these reports are credible?
MANILOV: We treat each such statement by Khattab and the official tasks set by Maskhadov on holding terrorist and subversion acts in the liberated regions of Chechnya, in Daghestan, Ingushetia and other regions of Russia highly responsibly; our goal is to preclude such acts. We are taking organisational, organisational-technical and special measures to preclude subversive acts.
FINNISH TELEVISION: Bislan Gantamirov said today that he would hold negotiations in Grozny. But it had been said before that no negotiations are held with the bandits.
MANILOV: Bislan can establish contacts with the other side at his level. If his talks produce a positive result, we will be happy. But this has no relation at all to political negotiations and the position of principle of the Russian leadership and the command of the federal grouping not to negotiate with the bandits.
OPEN RADIO: What about the liberation of General Shpigun? It was reported today that his whereabouts are known.
MANILOV: I will not speak in detail on this question, but there are grounds to hope that Shpigun will be liberated soon.
QUESTION: How many servicemen have been registered as missing since the beginning of the operation? And how many servicemen died in hospitals?
MANILOV: The figures I provided above also include those who died in military and civilian hospitals. As for the missing servicemen, there are 53 of them as of today. We are trying to determine the place where they were reported missing, find and identify bodies.
VEK NEWSPAPER: Did you see Raduyev's letter to the Russian leadership to the effect that he was prepared to "waste" Basayev for a million dollars and free exit abroad?
MANILOV: I saw it. It is impossible to reliably establish if Raduyev wrote it. But if the bandit warlords start giving each other up, the common cause will benefit. He can write letters or not, but he should do what he offered to do. And then we'll think what to do with him.
REN-TV NEWS: Are you working on the military doctrine? What new elements will it have and when?
MANILOV: The work on the military doctrine has been completed. It was submitted to the Security Council and will be discussed in the next few days. The doctrine is a synthesis of a great number of publications and speeches. All of them, even the unpleasant ones, were carefully and systematically analysed. Debates at conferences, the suggestions of scientists and of the military leaders of the past were all analysed and taken into consideration most constructively.
FRANCE PRESSE: You said there are 53 missing in action. Is it since August or since the beginning of the operation in Chechnya?
MANILOV: Since August.
FRANCE PRESSE: How many of them are missing in Chechnya?
MANILOV: Twenty seven servicemen of the armed forces are registered as missing, including 23 during the operation in Chechnya. Two of them are officers, one is NCO and 24 are privates and sergeants.
FRANCE PRESSE: Ruslan Aushev told us that humanitarian aid would be blocked in Ingushetia. Is it true Nikolai Koshman ordered to dispatch all humanitarian assistance to the liberated regions of Chechnya?
MANILOV: Humanitarian assistance always has an addressee. No matter who provides it, we make no distinction between forced migrants, who are staying in Ingushetia, North Ossetia and the Stavropol Territory, and those who are located in Chechnya.
RTR, VESTI: Do you have information about the use of toxic agents by the terrorists? Do our troops have individual protection kits?
MANILOV: The terrorists have no toxic agents. They have poisonous substances, such as chlorine and ammonia. These are not toxic agents. But the use of these substances in combination with oil products is hazardous to human life. And they have plans of using them. We take measures to preclude the explosion of containers with chlorine and ammonia, but in some cases we failed.
The troops are fully protected against these poisonous substances, but the peaceful population is not. And some people suffered from a chlorine fallout.
RTR, VESTI: I was in Urus-Martan on Monday, and heard a radio intercept about an explosion of a chlorine container. It was also said the troops had no gas masks.
MANILOV: No gas masks?
RTR, VESTI: Yes, the troops have no gas masks.
MANILOV: This is not true. If some unit does not have gas masks, it will be supplied with them. I don't think we have a problem here.
REUTERS: You said at a press conference before the New Year that there were some 1,500 fighters in Grozny, which was fully blockaded. Now you say that there are 3,000 fighters in the city. My second question concerns losses. We often called the Defence Ministry in January and the latest official figure for the federal losses, including those sustained in Daghestan, was 465 men and officers as of January 5. If we detract this figure from the one you provided us today, it turns out that over 400 servicemen perished in the past 20 days. Is this so?
MANILOV: We are sustaining heavier losses now than before. You can detract or add as you please. As for the number of fighters in Grozny, I must admit that we underestimated it at first, because intelligence information was incomplete. But the main thing was that the encirclement of the city was not tight proof. A considerable number of terrorists entered the city from the southern and southwestern directions before we sealed it.
RIA NOVOSTI: The mass media have reported that mufti Kadyrov is regarded as Maskhadov's successor. Can he influence the situation? Help as a Moslem, a mufti and a respected man?
MANILOV: It is vital to take the opinion of the heads of teips (clans) into consideration. Today I had a serious talk with Babichev, the Commandant of Chechnya. We will lean more heavily on the healthy, responsible and promising forces in Chechnya. The restoration tasks cannot be fulfilled without working jointly with the Chechen people, those who can constructively influence developments. The Chechen problem can be resolved only politically. And this presupposes reliance on such people as Kadyrov.
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