09.12.1999 14:00 Results of the Fulfilment of Official Combat Tasks by the Russian Interior Ministry Troops in 1999. Interior Ministry Troops Participation in Anti-Terrorist Operation in Chechnya
Participant:
VYACHESLAV V. OVCHINNIKOV - Colonel-General, Deputy Minister of the Interior Ministry and Commander-in-Chief of the Interior Ministry troops
OVCHINNIKOV: A number of events have happened since our last meeting. We have held an operative session of the leading officials - the Military Council - to sum up the results of the official combat activities of our troops in 1999. The main conclusion of the session was that the Military Council re-affirmed the need to enhance law-enforcement activities by the Interior Ministry troops aimed to consolidate society and strengthen the constitutional framework of Russian statehood.
The idea of including the Interior troops into other troop formations has been actively debated lately. It has been confirmed that [they] quite successfully handle their tasks in keeping with the law. The efforts are focused on ensuring the constant readiness of all managerial links which have the strength and the means to tackle suddenly arising tasks of any complexity, especially, beyond the site of their permanent location, in the North Caucasian region, in particular. A higher level of efficiency has been achieved in cooperation between the Interior troops and other law-enforcers in protecting public order. Special motorised army units jointly with Interior Ministry troops have carried out a number of operative-preventive operations code-named "Vikhr-Antiterror," "Signal" and "Arsenal." More than 51,000 servicemen were involved. The protection of important government facilities and special cargoes has been ensured and access of unauthorised persons is precluded. As many as 29,000 violators, including 538 who tried to get to the area of protected facilities, have been detained. One hundred and two people were caught when they tried to get to the area of protected aquatic facilities.
Participation in the Daghestan operation and in the liberation of the Chechen Republic from illegal armed units has become a serious test for our troops. Since October 1, Interior Ministry troops, which participated in these actions in line of duty, have conducted over 140 special operations aimed to eliminate illegal armed formations and confiscate weapons, ammunition and explosives. Federal forces have liberated and put under their control more than 90 populated areas. They have detained over 140 people who are suspected of committing different crimes and confiscated 226 firearms, about 400 hand grenades and over 10,000 pieces of different kinds of ammunition. Federal forces have revealed and eliminated over 700 explosive objects, detained 16 trucks, which carried illegal cargoes and eliminated 71 mini-factories for the production of fuel and lubricants.
During hostilities Interior Ministry troops re-affirmed their staunchness and reliability. Nine Interior Ministry servicemen have become Heroes of Russia, and five more servicemen are to receive this highest military award. In addition, 343 servicemen have received different government awards.
What are the specificities of the current situation in the North Caucasus? First: the action committed by Chechen gunmen against Daghestan settlements has completely undermined belief in their "ideas." Local people do not support them. In the first campaign of 1994-1996 the number of migrants was not fewer, but no one talked of them. They all resettled to the areas near Tsumadi, Botlikh and Khasavyurt. And no warnings of a humanitarian catastrophe were made at that time. This year, you hear numerous speculations on this subject.
Relations between the troops and local population have radically changed. Federal forces practically do not resort to violence in those areas in which local residents are able to make rebellious gunmen leave. However, the absence of food, ammunition and winter clothing makes gunmen confiscate all this from local civilians. In the past two years people have become extremely poor. Furthermore, it naturally irritates Chechens that there are mercenaries in the units of Chechen warriors. One cannot help seeing that people are tired.
I had a chance to talk with Chechens when federal troops were leaving in 1996. I was appointed the commandant of Grozny. The gap between the actions of power structures and federal forces made a serious imprint on the minds of people. This time, the government has organised the activities of the federal forces much more efficiently. Interior Ministry troops have carried out special measures in the liberated areas, mopping them up from gunmen, clearing them of mines and creating interim law-enforcement bodies.
Minister Vladimir Rushailo decided that some Russian constituent territories should help certain Chechen regions. Thus, an interim interior department of the Volgograd region works in Chechnya's Shelkovskoi district and similar interim bodies of the Krasnodar Territory and Rostov Region have been created in the Naursky and Nadterechny districts, respectively. Three hundred policemen and necessary equipment and documents have already arrived there. The issue at hand is, in fact, visiting regional interior departments. The Interior Department of the Chechen Republic has been established and its acting director has been appointed. The Department is now being staffed.
Interim interior authorities work in close contact with the recruiting-offices, which have been established in the liberated territories. There are bodies of power which usually comprise representatives of local structures who used to be economic executives. Interior troops are creating necessary conditions for the restoration of the war-ravaged economy and preparations for winter. State traffic safety inspectors check local transportation means. Upwards of 70 percent of the means of transportation that are now in the territory of Chechnya have been stolen in different parts of Russia.
People are being registered, and the work of the passport and visa service is gaining momentum. We attach great attention to the creation of the institute of district inspectors. The criminal police has been working quite well lately, exposing members of illegal bandit groups. Several hundreds of them are already known.
We drove to the town of Argun, visited its check-point and viewed the town from the top of the elevator. There is practically no destruction, and local people received federal troops in a friendly way. There is neither killed nor wounded on our side. Several Chechens tried to fight but they were eliminated.
The corpses of killed Chechen gunmen are scattered all around. This gives the ground to draw the conclusion that the rebels have to retreat in panic, as they have no time to fight back. There is no longer centralised management and local armed groups act separately, fanatically trying to put up some kind of resistance, because they have been paid. Their main stake is on young men aged 15 to 18 years, who are supplied with money and narcotic drugs.
At the long last the inter-department barrier has been broken. Defense Ministry troop units suppress the enemy's artillery, armoured hardware and mortars. They are followed by Interior Ministry troops which begin intelligence and reconnaissance operations in the blocked region. After Interior Ministry troops complete these operations they replace Defense Ministry troops at block-posts and control all outlets from populated areas. Then units of the militia, OMON, SOBR and patrol service arrive in the area and interior authorities are being created.
Sixteen regions of the Chechen Republic and 16 other constituent members of the Russian Federation are to assign their policemen to work as staff members of the interior bodies. We are studying the personnel who used to serve in the Interior Ministry of the Chechen Republic. Those who voluntarily apply for service are checked and then put on the staff of the local interior bodies. At first they are used for patrol service, then as district inspectors, because they know the locality very well, and then they fulfil official police work aimed to maintain public order.
That power actions are followed by efforts to organise normal peaceful life is a very positive factor. We visited one school when new text-books arrived. One teacher showed us which text-books they had to use to teach their children - text-books without covers that had been read to tatters. When children saw their new text-books, there was no limit to their joy. We also brought computers for a whole class. The most surprising thing was that when someone asked who would teach children to work on PCs, representatives of the interim interior body eagerly promised to help the school.
Humanitarian aid deliveries are under control. The distribution of such aid was rather peculiar, to put it mildly, during the first campaign. Hungry people of Slav origin were given shampoo, soap and bottles of eau-de-Cologne, while the rest received flour, sugar, bread, cookies and canned meat. We have set up special committees which make the lists of the needy and distribute products jointly with representatives of commandants' offices. Wages have begun to be paid in northern regions - Naursky, Nadterechny and Shelkovskoi. Teachers have already been paid.
Now that life is gradually taking a normal course, people ask only one question: Won't you let us down again and leave? If troops leave, armed bandits will be back, and those who have received the arrival of federal troops normally will be punished. There have been more than enough of examples when after the residents of one or another settlement had driven rebels away to prevent its destruction, they were killed. Demonstration shootings are organised to scare the population.
In the Botlikhsky district the Interior Ministry troops continue to fulfil their mission of maintaining public order and security and protecting the border along the Khoroni mountain crossing. Our troops are maintaining public order in the Tsumadinsky district, the Kadar zone, the zone of the Ossetia-Ingushetia conflict. They take part in special operations, protect vitally important facilities, are on guard duty, convoy humanitarian cargoes and assist the personnel of check-points. The tasks, which our troops are handling at present, are in full conformity with the Law On the Interior Ministry Troops.
I would like to point out close interaction between our troops and the Emergency Situations Ministry, or MChS. MChS Minister Sergei Shoigu is absolutely dedicated to his job. He has inspected all the check-points and camps which we organised for those who will wish to leave Grozny.
ITAR-TASS: In which places are the mopping up operations being carried out?
OVCHINNIKOV: I would correct the term "mopping up" as it is not quite correct. Intelligence and reconnaissance measures to detain bandits, inspection of the locality, rendering explosive devices safe and organisation of services - this is what our troops are doing. Such work is being done in the township of Oktyabrskoye, and it has already been completed on Mesket-Yurt and Argun.
Yesterday, three special units of the Interior Ministry troops, one battalion of a regiment of the North Caucasian region and the best brigade of the Moscow Interior troops district worked in Urus-Martan together with a group of fighters headed by Beslan Gantamirov. There was neither shooting nor victims. Seven high-explosive projectiles were rendered safe.
QUESTION: What is your attitude to the visit by OSCE envoy Knut Vollebaek to the Chechen Republic? Are you able to ensure his security? How do you view the Grozny operation?
OVCHINNIKOV: [The OSCE] commission should visit only those territories which are controlled by the federal forces, because the other side is unpredictable.
As I see the operation in Grozny, troops have nothing to win in a blocked city. In a situation when there is no electricity, water, food and warm clothing, I am not sure that the rebels would hold on there for a long time. A passage way has been opened for civilians near Pervomaiskoye - check-point Severnoye. I think that it is ready as of today. Small groups of people leave Grozny through this check-point, and their number will keep growing. We have scattered leaflets, telling people where to go and which itinerary to follow. Through the check-point Severnoye they will be taken by MChS transport facilities to a camp prepared for them. It has 170 coldproof tents provided with food supplies.
QUESTION: You have mentioned inter-department barriers which used to exist but do not exist as present. What departments have you meant? Yours and the Defence Ministry? Or were any others also involved?
OVCHINNIKOV: Different departments guide themselves by different normative documents and have different approaches to the solution of the same problems. Whereas the Interior Ministry troops are closer to law-enforcement and know with whom to establish contacts in carrying out special operations and to what attention should be paid in the first place, Defense Ministry units are not ready for all this. We, on the other hand, are not ready for general troop fighting, compared with the army.
Much credit goes to the government which has been able to establish an uninterrupted chain of measures - from power to humanitarian measures and to the restoration of the economy. Such a smooth transition from combat operations to economic restoration is of great importance. It is the first time that it is used in the work of the forces involved in the settlement of this armed conflict.
QUESTION: What have the casualties of the Interior troops been since the beginning of the Chechen operation? It is known that the warning has been issued to leave Grozny by December 11. Which actions will be undertaken after that deadline?
OVCHINNIKOV: Interior troops have lost 29 people of whom 11 died because they had violated safety measures. Eighty-seven officers and men were wounded. Our losses for health reasons - influenza, cold, etc. - are half of those at places of permanent dislocation.
What will happen to the gunmen if they do not leave the city? We have warned that local population needs to leave. If gunmen stay, they will be blocked. Our specialized, well-trained units will carry out some special measures. These units are aces in their trade. Their losses have been the minimal, and they are perfectly capable to deal with gunmen.
RADIO-1: What can you tell us about Beslan Gantamirov and his armed units? How many people are there? Where do they get arms? You have said that 220 firearms have been confiscated. What is the principle of arms confiscation?
OVCHINNIKOV: I became acquainted with Beslan Gantamirov in January 1995, when he was the Mayor of Grozny and I was its commandant. We cooperated rather fruitfully. He was surrounded by people who shared his ideas and were interested in the maintenance of order in the city. The fact that we were able between January 24 and February 20 to take complete control in Grozny, establish order and start the restoration of the city attracted attention to Gantamirov as a man capable of doing a lot of good for the people of Grozny.
Now he is again surrounded by the people who were with him at that time and who continue to think like him. I had to evacuate the OMON unit of the Chechen Interior Ministry because it was senseless to leave it -- people would be simply shot dead. But these people decided to return, as it is the place where their forefathers are buried and it is the duty and honour of every mountain-dweller to live on the soil of his predecessors. The people whom I knew when Beslan was in power for the first time are decent and intelligent people. It would be much better if Chechens try to find a common language with their own people.
On the initiative of the Prime Minister a document on an amnesty for part of gunmen is being prepared. A differentiated approach will be used. Special interim interior authorities will handle the matter, deciding who is who and where each was during the present war.
Weapons are confiscated from rebels who are taken prisoner during special operations. We have to render safe a large number of grenades and high-explosive projectiles, because when leaving bandits mine houses, public places, roads and bridged. Maskhadov said: "We are changing over to a guerilla war; we will leave villages the way federal forces would be compromised." When leaving, they open fire at populated areas and then claim that this was done by federal forces.
I must say that Chechen gunmen are rather well trained. They all have notebooks with the description of different systems of firearms and manuals on their use.
Gantamirov's unit today numbers about a hundred people. Gantamirov coordinates his actions with the Western Group of Troops. Ordinary Chechens also have weapons; they keep them in hideaway places. In the present situation every Chechen thinks of the safety of his family. As soon as the situation normalises, it will be announced that all the weapons must be surrendered. At present, people are at a crossroads: they do not know if the troops leave or stay.
FRANCE-PRESSE: How many people have really left Grozny in the past few days and how many are staying?
OVCHINNIKOV: By our estimates there are from 10,000 to 12,000 people left in Grozny. Upwards of four thousand are rebellious gunmen and the rest are peaceful civilians. As for December 11 as the deadline, any date can be fixed. The decision to begin any operation is made proceeding from the concrete situation.
GOLOS ROSSII RADIO: How high is the probability of the use of chemical weapons by gunmen? Are the army and people ready for this? How are the law-enforcement bodies and local authorities popular among local people? If gunmen prevent civilians from leaving Grozny, for how long can they hold on there? What will happen to civilians?
OVCHINNIKOV: According to some information, war gases are placed next to high-explosive projectiles along the roads and at crossings, that is, where the army may begin an attack on Grozny. We are studying this information. Adequate measures will be taken.
As for population, there are not enough gunmen to block all the exits from the city. There are many outlets along the Sunzhensky mountain ridge. We, for our part, will take measures to help people leave. There are special units for this purpose. No one is going to eliminate peaceful civilians together with gunmen.
ITAR-TASS: How many gunmen are there in Chechnya at present?
OVCHINNIKOV: It is a very complicated question, as their number keeps changing every hour for the simple reason that those who have realised that it is already the end try to leave the city for their native parts, trying to look like civilians. I repeat: all interior authorities are involved. The main places of the concentration of gunmen are Grozny (about 4,000), foothills in the area of bases where gunmen stockpile weapons, ammunition, food and cattle; the Vedeno and Kinkhi districts across from the Tsumadinsky and Botlikhsky districts; and the Nozhai-Yurt district, Novolaksk area (about 1,000). I do not think that there are more than 5,500 to 6,000 of them.
It is true that mercenaries continue to get into Chechnya. Four billion faked dollars are given away. There have been foreigners, Chechens and Slavs among the gunmen who have been disclosed.
TV-6: How realistic are the deadlines for the end of hostilities? If Grozny is blocked but not stormed, would it mean that in the next two to three months the army will move onto the mountains?
OVCHINNIKOV: The deadlines of an end to hostilities are only tentative. If the need arises and new large groups of gunmen are discovered, we will eliminate them.
As for the blockade of Grozny, everything is done to protect the lives of innocent people.
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