[House Hearing, 112 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office]
[H.A.S.C. No. 112-45]
ACCOUNTABILITY AT ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY
__________
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED TWELFTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
HEARING HELD
APRIL 14, 2011
[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] TONGRESS.#13
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
66-966 WASHINGTON : 2011
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SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS
ROB WITTMAN, Virginia, Chairman
K. MICHAEL CONAWAY, Texas JIM COOPER, Tennessee
MO BROOKS, Alabama ROBERT ANDREWS, New Jersey
TODD YOUNG, Indiana LORETTA SANCHEZ, California
TOM ROONEY, Florida COLLEEN HANABUSA, Hawaii
MIKE COFFMAN, Colorado
Michele Pearce, Professional Staff Member
Paul Lewis, Professional Staff Member
Famid Sinha, Staff Assistant
C O N T E N T S
----------
CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF HEARINGS
2011
Page
Hearing:
April 14, 2011, Accountability at Arlington National Cemetery.... 1
Appendix:
April 14, 2011................................................... 33
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APRIL 14, 2011
ACCOUNTABILITY AT ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY
STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY MEMBERS OF CONGRESS
Cooper, Hon. Jim, a Representative from Tennessee, Ranking
Member, Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations........... 2
Wittman, Hon. Rob, a Representative from Virginia, Chairman,
Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations................... 1
WITNESSES
Condon, Kathryn A., Executive Director, Army National Cemeteries
Program, Office of the Secretary of the Army................... 13
Hallinan, Patrick K., Superintendent, Arlington National Cemetery 15
Koch, Col. William C., Jr., USAF (Ret.).......................... 3
Schneider, Karl F., Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of the
Army for Manpower and Reserve Affairs.......................... 16
APPENDIX
Prepared Statements:
Condon, Kathryn A., joint with Patrick K. Hallinan........... 40
Cooper, Hon. Jim............................................. 39
Wittman, Hon. Rob............................................ 37
Documents Submitted for the Record:
[There were no Documents submitted.]
Witness Responses to Questions Asked During the Hearing:
[There were no Questions submitted during the hearing.]
Questions Submitted by Members Post Hearing:
Mr. Wittman.................................................. 51
ACCOUNTABILITY AT ARLINGTON NATIONAL CEMETERY
----------
House of Representatives,
Committee on Armed Services,
Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations,
Washington, DC, Thursday, April 14, 2011.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 2:05 p.m., in
room 2118, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Rob Wittman
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. ROB WITTMAN, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM
VIRGINIA, CHAIRMAN, SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND
INVESTIGATIONS
Mr. Wittman. I call to order the Subcommittee on Oversight
and Investigations.
And today's hearing is on accountability at Arlington
National Cemetery. I want to welcome everybody to this hearing
on this issue about accountability at our national cemetery.
Preliminarily, I would like to note for the record that the
Secretary of the Army and the Army inspector general received
invitations to testify at our hearing today, and I was bitterly
disappointed to learn that they have decided not to
participate. I hope this isn't a reflection of their
seriousness concerning this issue.
Instead of hearing from them, we will be receiving
testimony from the Army National Cemetery's program executive
director, Ms. Kathryn Condon, and the Arlington superintendent,
Mr. Patrick Hallinan. I hope, too, today that they are ready
for very robust and direct questions.
These officials will address ongoing discrepancies and
issues related to the 2010 Army inspector general's
investigation into misconduct at Arlington. I anticipate a
number of Members from other committees may wish to
participate. Therefore, absent any objections, I ask for
unanimous consent that they be allowed to participate and also
be provided with an opportunity to ask questions.
Before we get started with testimony, however, I would like
to share a story with you that highlights why I am absolutely
committed to addressing this issue. It is a story about an
American hero who has dedicated his life to our Nation and to
others who serve. His name is Paul Bucha.
In 1970, Army Captain Paul Bucha received the Medal of
Honor in Vietnam. Captain Bucha distinguished himself by
risking his life to save the lives of his fellow wounded
soldiers. Captain Bucha's story is a reminder of the thousands
of other brave men and women in our Nation's military who
served quietly and honorably, who all too often go unrecognized
for their service and sacrifice, and who willingly gave up
their lives in defense of freedom for all of us.
Mr. Bucha continues his life of service and has spoken on
the issues that have plagued Arlington. And he has stated,
``There is no place in the United States that is as committed
to perfection as Arlington. And, as a result, no solution to
the issues or challenges at Arlington can be accepted that
strives for something less than perfection.''
The guardians of Arlington are the men and women of the old
guard. It is their self-imposed dedication to perfection, from
their performance of duty to their lifelong commitment to
service, that sets them apart. They establish the standard for
everyone who would pass among them and for those over whom they
stand guard.
Those who they protect and guard, those who lay beneath the
white markers so neatly placed across that hallowed ground have
a contract with all of us. Their sacrifice on behalf of our
Nation was perfect in all respects, and it is our
responsibility to similarly strive for perfection as well.
There is no question that the Department of the Army
recognizes the importance of resolving outstanding
accountability. However, progress toward full restoration and
resolution of these issues has been unsatisfactory and is in no
way commensurate with the service and sacrifice of our fallen
heroes.
Our expectation is that each and every family affected by
this scandal will have their issues addressed and, hopefully,
their faith restored as a result of our work here today. Our
Nation's heroes deserve better. Today, this committee is
demanding better.
I now turn to the ranking member, Mr. Cooper, for his
remarks.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Wittman can be found in the
Appendix on page 37.]
Mr. Cooper.
STATEMENT OF HON. JIM COOPER, A REPRESENTATIVE FROM TENNESSEE,
RANKING MEMBER, SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND INVESTIGATIONS
Mr. Cooper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
In the interest of time, I would like to insert my written
statement in the record, but I commend you for holding this
hearing. I am sorry that we even have to have this hearing. But
I am dedicated to working with you to make sure that we solve
these problems.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Cooper can be found in the
Appendix on page 39.]
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Cooper. I appreciate that. And,
with that, we are going to begin our first panel of witnesses.
And before hearing from our Army representatives, we are
going to hear from Colonel Koch. He has taken time out of his
busy schedule to travel here from his home in North Carolina to
be with us and to share his experiences. I can't think of a
better way to start the discussion about accountability than to
start to hear from Colonel Koch. And I appreciate him taking
the time. We had a few minutes before the hearing to meet and
talk and to learn more about him and his commitment to our
Nation and his family.
And, with that, Colonel Koch, I am going to turn it over to
you and ask for you to give us your thoughts, concerns, and
ideas about the current state of affairs there at Arlington. I
know you have some personal experience there that I think is
very compelling and very useful to us as members of this
committee.
So, Colonel Koch.
STATEMENT OF COL. WILLIAM C. KOCH, JR., USAF (RET.)
Colonel Koch. Thank you.
I was going to say, I have good news and bad news. The bad
news is, I feel like the guy given a last cigarette and ready
to be blindfolded. The good news is, I don't notice any of you
having any rifles, so I think I am pretty safe. And I guess
that is going to be the only humor I come up with. I guess that
is very little humor, but at least I guess it is a good start.
What I would like to talk about is another kind of hero,
not a military hero, but the wife of these heroes and the wife
of all of us military folks who are also buried at Arlington.
Arlington gives us the opportunity to have our wives with us
for eternity, and I think that is great.
And this is my wife--excuse the shaking; when you get old,
that is what happens--and this is her gravesite as it was
before August. And the back of it has the location, Section 66,
1180. And for many years--she died in 2005--I sent flowers to
that location. Just to show you, in summer and in winter.
And in June or July of last year, I started reading about
some problems at Arlington, but none of them seemed to be
associated with Section 66, so it didn't bother me. And I guess
it should have anyway, but it didn't.
And, later on, all of a sudden, it started spreading to
other sections, and then I started getting concerned. And
Arlington Cemetery gave us a number to call, and I called that
number. And I said, ``I would like to know if my wife is
actually buried where you say she is, based on what I have been
reading.'' And they took my information and they said, ``We
will call you back.''
So about a week to 10 days later, they called me back and
said, ``No problem. We checked all our records. Everything is
fine.'' Well, that was good. I felt good about that because I
had been visiting her regularly, and everything was good.
About a week later, I got a call from an Army officer,
saying, ``We have a problem.'' And he explained it this way--
and I have here a picture of the three gravesites that were
affected by this. This is my wife's, this is an Army staff
sergeant, and a Navy commander's wife.
And what he told me was, the wife of the Army staff
sergeant had had her husband's gravesite dug up to prove that
he was, in fact, buried there. And when they dug it up, they
found a wooden casket; only, he had been buried in a metal
casket. And somehow they realized that my wife had been buried
in a wooden casket. And so they went one gravesite over and dug
in my wife's gravesite, and it was empty. So they went one
gravesite the other way, and they found the urn--the woman had
been cremated--for the wife of the Navy commander. And they dug
deeper, and they found the staff sergeant's casket.
My understanding is that he is now buried somewhere else at
Arlington. My wife, they left her in the new gravesite and put
a new headstone on her. And where she was originally supposed
to be buried, they buried someone else.
Now, over that almost 5 years, I sent flowers, as you could
see, I sent wreaths at Christmas. I even took her mother up
there so she could see her daughter's gravesite, and all she
saw was a headstone and an empty grave.
So I went from being elated when I was told everything was
okay to being very, very sad. And maybe ``sad'' is the wrong
word, but I was no longer elated.
And so, what happened next is everything looks the same
with the headstone; only, now on the back it has ``Section 66,
1181'' instead of 1180, because she has moved over.
And I put this one in there because this is the first
flowers that I sent her and I knew she was there. No longer was
I sending flowers to an empty grave.
And I found a picture, I think in the newspaper, that kind
of tells the story better than I can. It is, I think, a
beautiful picture. But if you look, right behind this
headstone, the front headstone, is where my wife was supposed
to have been buried. And you will notice there is no headstone
back there. She is now over here in her new headstone. So it
kind of tells a story of what went on at Arlington during this
time.
And I guess--I have been interviewed by several news media,
and I have told the same story. And I was asked, what do I
expect to get out of this hearing? And I said, I guess two
things. And I wasn't going to mention two things, I was only
going to mention one, but I think I better mention two.
First of all, I wanted people out there to know that there
is a problem at Arlington. A lot of people probably read about
it, but there may still be families out there that are going to
visit an empty grave or a grave that is supposed to be John
Smith and it is Mary Jones. And I think that needs to be
corrected as best they can.
And the other part is, the people that were in charge that
caused all this, from my point of view and from what I have
been able to read, have been given a slap on the wrist. And I
don't want revenge; I want justice. And I think that is the
only fair thing that we, the people that have been involved in
this--and it is not just me; there are many others that have
been through similar situations--expect from Arlington, the
Army, and I guess from the Congress.
With that, I will take any questions.
Mr. Wittman. Well, thank you, Colonel Koch. We really
appreciate you taking the time to share your story with us. It
is very heart-wrenching to go to Arlington and believe that
your wife was in one place but she was not. And we appreciate
your service to our Nation.
I want to begin by asking you how you felt after you first
realized that through the years your wife wasn't located where
she was supposed to be and what your feeling was there as far
as the trust that you had in Arlington and the expectation that
you had with the folks there at Arlington and how that cemetery
is run.
Colonel Koch. Well, the first thing, like I say, I was
elated because there were no problems. And when I got the
second call, I think I was in shock at first. And then I guess
I was angry. And then I got over that, and I said, I think it
is time something is done.
The first time I went to Arlington, I was a high school
senior. And watching or wandering, walking through all those
gravesites, just, it was awesome. And I have been to some
cemeteries in Europe, also, from World War II. If you have ever
been to them, it is a similar type situation; you get the same
feeling.
But this is in our own country. This is our major national
military cemetery. And it is not something we should be putting
up with. And I guess, having been in the Air Force for 30
years, I am not as emotional externally as some people are. And
I don't apologize for that. I just know that, after I found out
about this and was home, it was harder being home than it was
before I found out.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you. And let me ask, from your
perspective today and what you went through in the efforts to
resolve this problem, do you feel, number one, that you were
dealt with fairly and that the problem was directly addressed
and that it was solved in the best way possible?
And secondly is, do you believe, based on your experience,
that the folks currently at Arlington have the wherewithal to
continue to manage that facility the way it needs to be
managed?
Colonel Koch. Well, for the first question, when we had the
burial for my wife, everything went well, everything was
perfect, except it was done after some very heavy rain, so we
never did get to see the casket lowered into the ground, which
probably was good, but there was--I mean, when you walked on
the grass, it was ``slush, slush, slush,'' so we never did get
to see it buried. And there was a little card that had her name
on it where she was supposed to be buried. Now, whether that
was 1180 or 1181, I don't remember.
But we were treated well at Arlington. Everything went
smoothly. We had an Air Force sort of honor guard of
pallbearers. And I can't say anything bad about that whole
situation.
The only thing bad I can say about that process was--not
Arlington's fault, it was the VA [Department of Veterans
Affairs]--they wouldn't let me put--my wife was a minister--
they wouldn't let me put ``Reverend'' under her name. And on
the new headstone, they let me put ``Reverend'' on it, but they
put it under my name. So I want you all to know I am not a
reverend; my wife was.
As to what they are doing today, having read some things
about it, I think they are probably going in the right
direction. They have a terrific task. I don't know how they are
ever going to go back. I think I mentioned to you earlier that
the only way I can see to solve the problem is do DNA testing
on everybody in Arlington, and we know that is never going to
happen. And it is not something that is even, I don't think,
financially possible.
But how do you know that this person that is in this grave,
even though it is a one-for-one, grave versus headstone, is the
right person? I don't know how they are ever going to figure
that one out.
Mr. Wittman. Colonel Koch, I couldn't agree with you more.
That is, I think, something compelling that this nation needs
to be assured, and that is that there is 100 percent certainty
about every grave and every set of remains there at Arlington.
I think that is something that we owe to our men and women in
uniform, obviously.
From your standpoint, do you see that there are more things
that Arlington can do to restore the trust, not only of the
members of the military and their families that are buried
there, but of the American public?
Colonel Koch. Well, I think--I think it would be nice if
there was some way they could maybe notify the families of all
the people there that they have had problems, that people
should check in, make sure that their loved one is there, and
see if they can somehow work that out.
Like I say, if the lady had not had her husband dug up,
this isn't something I have been thinking about. And, say, 20
years from now I died and they dug up the gravesite to put me
in it, expecting my wife to be there, and it was empty, what
would happen? Would they just put me in there and bury it and
say, ``Okay, it is all done,'' or would they have gone and
checked and found out, ``Okay, she is over here'' and then bury
me over there? I don't have an answer to that, and maybe they
can answer that one for you. But that is looking out a long
time in the future--hopefully, a long time in the future.
But, yeah, I don't know everything they are doing, so I
can't answer for what the people at Arlington are doing 100
percent right or 50 percent right or 25 percent right.
Mr. Wittman. All right. Very good. Thank you, Colonel. I am
going to turn to the ranking member now, Mr. Cooper.
Mr. Cooper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Colonel. I
am grateful for your service to our Nation. I am sorry that you
have been treated this way. Nobody should have to undergo this.
And this will probably go down as one of the biggest snafus in
the history of the U.S. Army, to have allowed Arlington
Cemetery, the most honored and sacred of places, to be
mismanaged in this fashion.
So we are working on a bipartisan basis to make sure that
these problems are corrected as quickly as possible. I hope
that we can get a handle on this immediately, if not sooner.
Already, there have been years of problems and delays.
So we just regret the experience that you faced. So if
there is anything that we can do, we are there for you. Thank
you, sir.
Colonel Koch. I would say the thing you can do is keep
after them. Don't let them stop. Keep after them. Make sure
they are doing it, just like you are doing today. And don't let
up.
Now, facetiously, the other--or, earlier today, I met some
Air Force guys, and they asked me why I was here, and I told
them. And I also told them, I said, ``If the Air Force were in
charge of Arlington, this wouldn't have happened.''
Mr. Wittman. Well, Colonel, I think you have my commitment
and Mr. Cooper's commitment and the members of the committee's
commitment that we will not rest until we have absolute
certainty of all the remains and identification there and the
management of Arlington.
So thank you so much for taking that time to come in.
Colonel Koch. Can I say one other thing? Ask the media to
keep it up also.
Mr. Wittman. Amen. We will definitely do that. Mr. Conaway.
Mr. Conaway. Colonel, thank you for coming in and sharing
this with us today.
I don't have any questions, other than I came in right in,
kind of, the ``Tinkers to Evers to Chance'' of what you were
doing. Are you comfortable your wife is buried where you
believe she is buried? Did I understand that?
Colonel Koch. I am sorry. I didn't hear you.
Mr. Conaway. Are you comfortable that your wife is buried
where you believe she is buried?
Colonel Koch. I am probably 98 or 99 percent sure.
And I will tell you, when they notified me, I called the
funeral director that handled her burial and her funeral, and I
said, you know, ``How do you identify bodies, and how does
Arlington do it?'' And the man told me that the funeral parlor
has to put a little tag or something in the casket that has
name and date of birth, date of death, and all that, and that
Arlington puts a little tag on the casket externally.
So I called Arlington and I said, ``Did you find this
tag''--no, I said, I was told that this happened. And the
answer I got was, ``We are doing it now,'' which implies to me
that they were not doing it prior to that time, which was--that
was probably in August or September.
Mr. Conaway. Well, there is no more delicate way to ask
this. As part of this process, did they determine your wife's
remains were in that casket? Did they open it up?
Colonel Koch. They did nothing to do that. They just
assumed--well, they never told me they did anything. But they
assumed, because it was a wooden casket. And, apparently, there
are not that many wooden caskets buried there. And it was in
the general area of where she was supposed to be.
Mr. Conaway. Okay.
Colonel Koch. I don't have 100 percent proof. Let me put it
that way. But I kind of feel comfortable that it is okay. But I
couldn't say 100 percent.
Mr. Conaway. Okay. Well, and my apologies. I am sorry that
this happened, as well. I buried a wife also one time, and so I
have a sense of what you went through, what you have gone
through, and I am sorry that you were put through that.
And I yield back.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Conaway. Mr. Young.
Mr. Young. Colonel Koch, thank you so much for your
service. And I, of course, mean your military service but also
your presence today. I appreciate receiving your testimony.
And I guess I want to express to you the gratitude I have
for some of the real human impact that these complications have
created for you and others around the country.
And I just would like to say, one of the things that I
think I will be focused on, moving forward, as we try and
rectify some of these issues, is ensuring that the concerns of
our surviving military family members are addressed throughout
the process, that we are involving you as we make such
important decisions as disinterment, reinterment, and we draw
on your wisdom and, frankly, your feelings as we try to handle
these matters delicately.
And there are some organizations out there that I have
become aware of that have provided some thoughts on how we
might involve you in the process, moving forward. The Tragedy
Assistance Program for Survivors has a number of good
suggestions, I think. And perhaps we can talk about
implementing some of those.
But, really, I just want to say, thank you, sir. You are
doing great credit to the military services and to our
citizenry by your presence and testimony here today. God bless
you.
Colonel Koch. Excuse me. Could I say one thing?
Mr. Wittman. Yes, Colonel, please.
Colonel Koch. I have to remember. That is the trouble when
you get old; you forget things faster than you should. Let me
think about it, and I will----
Mr. Wittman. Okay.
Colonel Koch. I will think about it.
Mr. Wittman. All right. We will come back to you, I
guarantee, guarantee. Mr. Rooney.
Mr. Rooney. Sir, when you say the people that were
responsible for the errors--and I am sorry, I came in late. If
I could ask a question before I ask a backup question.
When your wife's--when you were at the site and you said
that it was raining and you didn't actually see the casket go
in the ground, how did it go from there to not going into the
ground there? If you could back up and--and I apologize for
coming in late, and I didn't hear if you said that in your
opening testimony. What is your understanding of how there was
a mixup?
Colonel Koch. I don't have an answer for that. I don't know
how it got mixed up, other than the fact--well, you see, it
wasn't just my wife's that was mixed up; it was also the staff
sergeant, it was also the Navy commander's gravesite. So,
really, there were three gravesites in that one area.
Mr. Rooney. Uh-huh.
Colonel Koch. So, apparently, some of the worker bees must
have either not followed the procedures or did something they
shouldn't have or didn't have some supervisor or something
there to make sure that they did it right.
But how they got it wrong I don't know. Because, like I
say, there was a little card there with her name on it. And the
thing I didn't know was whether it was the correct gravesite or
not, because we couldn't even bring the casket up to that
location, it was so wet.
Mr. Rooney. Uh-huh. And, sir, you say in your testimony
that those that were responsible for this received a slap on
the wrist. Do you know what that entailed, what was the slap on
the wrist?
Colonel Koch. My understanding is that they were given
letters of reprimand, that in the last paragraph, I believe, of
the letter of reprimand it said, ``This will be taken out of
your records when you retire.'' So, in other words, once they
retired, it was as if this whole situation never occurred.
Mr. Rooney. Thank you, sir. Mr. Chairman, I don't have
any--I yield back.
Mr. Wittman. All right. Thank you, Mr. Rooney. Mr. Coffman.
Mr. Coffman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, Colonel Koch,
thank you so much for your service to our country and for your
willingness to come before this committee. And, again, my
apologies for what has occurred to you and your family.
Help me out here. I understand it was inclement weather,
and so, because of that, you didn't see your wife's casket go
into the ground. Is it normal procedure in Arlington that in
weather conditions where there is not inclement weather that
one would observe--that the family would observe the casket
going into the gravesite?
Colonel Koch. I really can't answer that. I think you
should ask----
Mr. Coffman. Okay. Very well. That will be a question,
certainly, that we raise to the staff at Arlington.
What was the attitude of, in your communications with the
staff at Arlington, the graves registration staff or whatever
they--if there is a civilian term for it, I am not familiar
with it. What did--tell me about the course or the conduct of
those communications. I mean, were they bureaucratic? Were they
sympathetic? How would you describe them?
Colonel Koch. Certainly, they were sympathetic. When I
spoke with the funeral director, he said, ``Well, it is
probably going to be several weeks before we will be able to do
the burial.'' And the night that we had the viewing in Raleigh,
he came to me and said, ``It is going to be on the 6th of
January,'' and she had died on the 20th of December. So it was
probably as quick as I would have even thought of.
The man that dealt with us the day of the actual burial was
as nice as could be. And, like I say, the only complaint I had
at that point was not with Arlington, it was with the VA and my
concerns about the headstone.
And then the burial, itself, as far as it went----
Mr. Coffman. When you were first notified, the
communications at the point in time where you realized that
there was a problem----
Colonel Koch. Oh.
Mr. Coffman [continuing]. And you had contacted the staff
at Arlington, tell me about those communications and how they
went.
Colonel Koch. I went back too far, I think.
Mr. Coffman. No, that is fine. That is fine.
Colonel Koch. It was an Army lieutenant colonel. He called
me up, he left me a message and said something like, ``We've
got a problem''--no, he said, ``Please call this number,'' and
he gave me the number.
Mr. Coffman. Okay. Good.
Colonel Koch. He didn't say there was----
Mr. Coffman. That is good.
Colonel Koch. When I called him, he then told me there was
a problem. He explained it to me exactly.
And now I remember what I was going to mention to Mr.
Young. They dug up my wife's grave, and someone said, ``I
thought that was illegal, to dig up a grave without
permission.'' And I don't know if that is true or not; they
would have to ask the legal people. But that was one of the
concerns more people had than I did.
But anyway, everybody that I dealt with in the building
where they bring the families, everything there was fine, had
no problems. They escorted us to our cars, took us out to the
gravesite, waited for us, went back, showed us how the cars
should be set up. So I have no complaints about that part of
it.
Mr. Coffman. Okay.
Colonel Koch. The lieutenant colonel was very nice. He
explained it. He did not try to make excuses. He said, here's
the facts. And I think that is what I like about the military:
They don't try to make excuses; they tell you the facts. If you
don't like the facts, tough luck.
But, yeah, he was--everything, from that point of view, I
thought was okay, other than the fact that I didn't like what
he was telling me.
Mr. Coffman. Sure.
Colonel Koch. Not how he was telling me, but what he was
telling me.
Mr. Coffman. Okay.
Mr. Young. Would the gentleman yield just for a moment?
Mr. Coffman. Yes, I yield.
Mr. Young. Sir, you indicated, just to make sure we have
this correct here, that your wife's remains were dug up without
any consultation with you. Is that correct?
Colonel Koch. Not exactly. What it was was they dug up the
gravesite where she actually was, which was the staff
sergeant's gravesite. So they had permission from the wife of
the staff sergeant to dig that up. But then they went into
where my wife's gravesite was and dug that one up, not knowing
whether she was there or not until they actually dug and found
that she wasn't.
Mr. Young. Thank you. I thought I missed something there. I
appreciate that. Troubling nonetheless. Thank you.
Mr. Coffman. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Coffman. Mr. Runyan.
Mr. Runyan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thanks for
inviting me today.
I know some of the other Members may wonder why I am
sitting down here, but I am a member of HASC, but I am also
chairman of the Veterans Committee, Disability Assistance and
Memorials. And oversight of our veterans cemeteries and
Arlington is one of my primary issues that I deal with.
And, Colonel Koch, thank you for your service, and thanks
for sharing your story with us.
You know, it was literally my second week in--or my second
month in office that I had a similar constituent complaint much
like you had. And I have since been over to Arlington, and it
was fixed rapidly.
I think many people on this committee will be comforted in
knowing I think we are moving in the right direction. And I
look forward to their testimony.
And the situation I would like to share with the
constituent I had. I had a gentleman reach out to my office the
1st of March, that his nephew came down to visit his
grandfather's gravesite, and there was a different headstone in
the gravesite. And it was shocking to them. I reached out to
Arlington. They fixed the problem--identified the problem, and
it was, obviously, a human error issue that had happened when
someone had, you know, buried their spouse along with them, and
it got put in the wrong part of the graveyard. But it was
fixed.
So, you know, I look forward--I appreciate the opportunity
to be here, but I look forward to tackling this, also, on the
VA side with several more hearings to make sure we are moving
in the right direction. Because stories like yours,
unfortunately, you know, they are not one of a kind. They
happen all the time. And that is really why we are having this
hearing.
Thank you again for sharing your story with us today. I
yield back.
Colonel Koch. Can I say something?
Mr. Wittman. Yes, please.
Colonel Koch. The VA cemeteries appear to be run pretty
well, from what I understand. And maybe they are smaller, maybe
they are not in such a situation that maybe it is easier to
handle.
But I was going to say, in the military--I was a navigator
in Vietnam, and we always had checklists. And you would have
the checklist, and you would check things off. Now, I don't
know if Arlington has a checklist. I hope they do. And it says:
Call this person--check, we did it, and initial it, here is who
did it; call this person; dig a hole--I mean, a gravesite--
sorry about that. But, you know, do each step of the process
and have somebody sign off on it.
At the end, the last guy signs off and says, ``These are
all done.'' Now you know this person is buried at this section,
this gravesite, everybody has done their part, we don't have to
worry about that one, we can check that one off, let's go on to
the next one.
Mr. Runyan. Mr. Chairman, will you yield for one second?
Mr. Wittman. Please, yes.
Mr. Runyan. Just to let you know, Colonel, that we stole
the superintendent to Arlington from the VA, so, yeah.
Colonel Koch. That is right.
Mr. Runyan. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Runyan. We appreciate your
interest in this, appreciate you joining us today. And we look
forward to making sure that these issues there at Arlington
are, indeed, resolved.
And, Colonel, thank you so much for taking your time today.
And I do want to offer to the committee members, if anybody
has any additional questions, now would be the time to pose
them. If not, then what we will do is move into recess. But I
want to open the floor again if anybody has any additional
questions.
Mr. Coffman. Mr. Chairman, if I could?
Mr. Wittman. Yes.
Mr. Coffman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Colonel Koch, when
you were told that the identification card, that it was the
normal procedure to place the identification card in the casket
itself----
Colonel Koch. Yes.
Mr. Coffman [continuing]. What was their response again?
That they just started doing that? Or was it at some point in
time after your wife had been interred that they started doing
that? What was the response again?
Colonel Koch. Well, the card from the funeral director was
apparently--I think the funeral director told me, by law, they
have to put that inside the casket. The one outside, it sounded
as if they had--either they had done it for a while and then
they stopped, or they had never done it even though people
thought they were doing it.
Mr. Coffman. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Coffman. Mr. Rooney.
Mr. Rooney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I am not going to be able to make it back for the next
panel, so I just wanted to say, you know--and, Colonel, again,
thank you for your testimony.
I think that the thing that gets me, personally, so upset
about your situation and the situation that Mr. Runyan was
talking about is, you know, if you go to Arlington and you go
to the changing of the guard and the Tomb of the Unknown
Soldier and the reverence that we have for soldiers or
servicemen that we don't know quite--we are not quite sure who
they are, but we have that much respect. Or, you know, you see
the President last year going up to Dover Air Force Base, and
the somber mood of those soldiers coming home.
And, yet, we make what could very well just be an honest
human error. It is just unacceptable, in my mind. And, you
know, the fact that this country reveres so much the people
that died for this country, that we would have the kind of
honor and pomp and circumstance of the changing of the guard,
but, at the same time, we are making these kind of mistakes in
the same exact place, in the same exact venue, is just
unconscionable.
And I am sorry--I am sorry that you had to go through this,
you know, on behalf of myself and, I am sure, the rest of this
body. And I am sorry I am not going to be able to be here for
the next block. But I hope everything, moving forward, will be
squared away.
Colonel Koch. Yeah, I think we have more than one unknown
soldier in Arlington now. There may be multiples spread out
over the whole cemetery, unfortunately.
Mr. Rooney. Yeah. Thank you.
Mr. Wittman. All right. Thank you, Colonel Koch. Any other
questions for the colonel?
Mr. Coffman. Mr. Chairman, just very quickly.
Mr. Wittman. Yes, Mr. Coffman.
Mr. Coffman. I am sorry. When was your wife buried again,
interred?
Colonel Koch. She died on December 20th, and she was buried
on the 6th of January last--let's see. She died in 2005 on the
20th of December, and she was buried January 6th in 2006.
Mr. Coffman. In the associated graves of the--I think you
talked about a staff sergeant, and was it a--I think a
lieutenant commander or commander's wife?
Colonel Koch. Commander.
Mr. Coffman. Commander's wife. Do you remember at all when
they were interred?
Colonel Koch. No, I don't.
Mr. Coffman. Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Coffman. Colonel Koch, thank
you again. We really appreciate you spending your time with us.
We know this is a very difficult situation for you, to come in
here and share your experience, but it is extraordinarily
helpful to us to have an experience, a face, a name, a person
associated with the issues we are dealing with there at
Arlington.
So I deeply, deeply appreciate that. Thank you for taking
your time coming here from North Carolina and sharing what I
know is a very personal situation with us.
Colonel Koch. Well, thank you for inviting me.
And I don't know if anybody saw, but there was a picture up
there of my wife and I. And that was the last picture ever
taken of her. There it is. And she was a very beautiful lady,
and I still miss her. But I have gotten over some of it. You
never get over it all, but you get over a little bit of it. And
I wish she were still here and I didn't have to sit here and
talk about her. Thank you all for inviting me.
Mr. Wittman. Well, Colonel, thank you. And we will continue
to keep you and your wife in our thoughts and prayers. We
appreciate you sharing with us today.
And, with that, I am going to recess the Oversight and
Investigations Subcommittee while we go to the floor and vote.
And we will reconvene 5 minutes after the vote on the floor.
[Recess.]
Mr. Wittman. I call the Subcommittee on Oversight and
Investigations back to order.
And we will begin with our next panel of witnesses: Ms.
Condon, Mr. Hallinan, and Mr. Schneider. We welcome you to the
committee and look forward to your opening statements. So, Ms.
Condon, we will begin with you.
STATEMENT OF KATHRYN A. CONDON, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, ARMY
NATIONAL CEMETERIES PROGRAM, OFFICE OF THE SECRETARY OF THE
ARMY
Ms. Condon. Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the
subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to provide an
update on Arlington today.
I am joined today by Mr. Patrick Hallinan, who is the
superintendent of Arlington, and Mr. Karl Schneider, who is the
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Army for Manpower
and Reserve Affairs.
As the executive director responsible for both the U.S.
Soldier and Airmen's Home National Cemetery and Arlington
National Cemetery, I want you to know that the Army is
committed to rendering public honor and recognition through
dignified burial services for members of our armed services and
their loved ones.
On behalf of the cemeteries and the Department of the Army,
I would like to thank Congress for the support they have
provided over the years. But, in particular, sir, I would like
to thank you and the Members for the support that you have
provided Mr. Hallinan and I in our first 10 months on the job.
As executive director, I report directly to the Secretary
of the Army. And it is my responsibility now to effectively and
efficiently develop, operate, manage, and administer both of
the cemeteries. Mr. Hallinan, as the superintendent, is
responsible for the daily operations.
I know that the past serious mismanagement of Arlington
National Cemetery has caused great consternation to the
American public, to Congress, but most importantly, to our
veterans and their loved ones. The news reports, combined with
the inspector general [IG] reports, have shattered the trust in
Arlington.
I am here today to personally tell you that Arlington
Cemetery has the full support of the Army and we are moving
forward to fix the problems found by the inspector general. And
we will comply with the legislative requirements that will
continue to correct the mistakes of the past while ensuring
future strong management, oversight, and, most importantly,
accountability.
In less than a year, we have taken several steps to address
the past issues, including rebuilding the workforce,
overhauling the automated interment scheduling system,
establishing a consolidated call center, implementing a
financial management system and a procurement system, and
employing a new chain of custody for procedures that weren't
there before.
Arlington National Cemetery, as you know, conducts 27
funerals a day. We consider it part of our sacred trust to
ensure that each funeral is executed with utmost dignity and
respect. Every funeral receives Mr. Hallinan and my full
attention to detail.
Daily operations are critical to maintaining one of the
unique traditions of Arlington National Cemetery: multiple,
simultaneous, private gravesite interments with full military
honors. Neither the importance nor the complexity of this
tradition can be overstated.
To establish accountability while maintaining this
tradition, standards were developed throughout the operation
which didn't exist before. In addition, we have procured new
equipment, we are training the workforce to implement the
standards that have we put in place, and we are now holding our
supervisors and leaders accountable for the operations.
Arlington National Cemetery is truly about those who have
served. It provides a means for families, friends, and the
country to honor our fallen veterans. Hence, customer service
is a critical priority, because our goal is to help each and
every family come to closure.
While we are making progress to date to improve service to
our veterans and their loved ones, improvements still must
continue. We firmly believe in continuous process improvement,
and we are working every day to establish and improve feedback
mechanisms to increase our understanding of family needs and
concerns.
One of the biggest concerns upon arrival were the paper
records and the lack of any backup of this information. We have
been able to recover images from the efforts in 2005 to scan
the records that were beginning in the Civil War. These images
have been integrated with VA's BOSS [Burial Operation Support
System] records and our interment schedule records into a
searchable database that now provides both a digital tool and,
more importantly, a backup for the vast majority of those
authoritative records. This database will be expanded and is
forming the basis for the accounting effort that has been
mandated by public law.
We hope that we can highlight today the actions that we
have taken to change, and demonstrate the progress that has
been and continues to be made to restore the Nation's
confidence in Arlington National Cemetery.
Mr. Chairman, this concludes my testimony.
[The joint prepared statement of Ms. Condon and Mr.
Hallinan can be found in the Appendix on page 40.]
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Ms. Condon. I will offer an
opportunity to Mr. Hallinan or Mr. Schneider, if they have any
opening comments they would like to make. I will take them at
this time.
STATEMENT OF PATRICK K. HALLINAN, SUPERINTENDENT, ARLINGTON
NATIONAL CEMETERY
Mr. Hallinan. Mr. Chairman, distinguished members of the
subcommittee, I thank you for the opportunity to speak to you
about Arlington National Cemetery.
I was appointed to superintendent of Arlington National
Cemetery on October 10, 2010, and I have served as the acting
superintendent of Arlington National Cemetery since June 6,
2010. This is my first opportunity to speak before Congress.
Ms. Condon and I started at Arlington National Cemetery on
the same day. I came over as a subject-matter expert on the
detail, at the request of the Secretary of the Army and at the
direction of the Secretary of the VA, to provide assistance
with cemetery operations.
I was formerly the director of field programs for the
National Cemetery Administration, Department of Veterans
Affairs [VA]. And, in that capacity, I was responsible for
policies, procedures, their implementation and development on
cemetery operations and to provide guidance to all national
cemeteries. I also had oversight responsibility for 131
national cemeteries, five memorial service networks, and helped
establish the National Training Academy for the National
Cemetery Administration. I bring my commitment and that
expertise to Arlington National Cemetery.
I began my career, Mr. Chairman, in Federal service as a
Marine. Upon my honorable discharge from the Marine Corps, I
took a position with the National Cemetery Administration as a
temporary caretaker. My entire life has been devoted to
cemetery operations. As I look back on my 37-year career, I
view my appointment as superintendent of Arlington to be the
high point.
I am committed to being part of a team that fixes the many
problems that we are all aware of and some we may also
discover.
As Ms. Condon mentioned in her testimony, in less than 1
year--10 months--we have taken several steps to address the
problems. We have introduced industry standards, national
standards that the VA has used at their national cemeteries and
other national cemeteries and private industry use. We sent our
employees out for professional training. We are training our
employees onsite. We have purchased new equipment. We are
providing the leadership and direction that they need.
I am personally out on a daily basis, no matter the weather
conditions, snow or rain, directing, leading, guiding,
coaching, mentoring, holding the supervisors, the team leaders,
and the entire workforce accountable. I will say that the
workforce has responded in a positive manner, and I have seen
improvement, while I freely admit there is much improvement to
be made.
Arlington National Cemetery is hallowed ground. It is the
place where America's heroes lie in rest. As a veteran, as the
father of a Marine, and, most importantly, as a person who has
dedicated his entire life to service to our military families,
I am honored to be the superintendent, and I am committed to
fix the mistakes of the past and restore the public faith and
trust in the operations of Arlington National Cemetery.
I thank you for allowing me to be here today.
[The joint prepared statement of Mr. Hallinan and Ms.
Condon can be found in the Appendix on page 40.]
Mr. Wittman. Mr. Schneider.
STATEMENT OF KARL F. SCHNEIDER, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY ASSISTANT
SECRETARY OF THE ARMY FOR MANPOWER AND RESERVE AFFAIRS
Mr. Schneider. Mr. Chairman, I don't have a statement. I am
here, though, as the Army's senior career civilian
personnelist. I have over 30 years of service with experience
with both military and civilian personnel. And the Secretary of
the Army has asked me to appear today to answer your questions
about the personnel actions related to Arlington National
Cemetery.
I am happy to take your questions, sir.
Mr. Wittman. All right. Very good. Well, thank you, members
of the panel. We appreciate your opening statements.
And, at this point, we will begin a line of questioning.
And I want to begin with you, Ms. Condon, and I will move over
to Mr. Hallinan.
Full faith and trust in Arlington National Cemetery is, I
think, critical not just to the men and women that are interred
there, but to this Nation. It is a symbol of what is right and
what is just in how we honor the fallen.
My question is this: We have heard from the Secretary, when
he testified before the full committee, and his words were he
pledged to do everything necessary and possible to right the
unimaginable and unacceptable wrongs that have taken place.
That means 100 percent accountability, 100 percent auditing, to
make sure that everything at Arlington, both past and present,
is beyond reproach.
It seems to me that now we learn that the Army doesn't plan
on following up with that promise, that there is not going to
be 100 percent certainty in identification of remains, we won't
use every means possible to make sure that we take up the
concerns of families that may not know with certainty the
placement of their loved ones there.
Also, it is clear to me today by both the Secretary and the
Army inspector general not being here for this hearing that
they don't take this very seriously.
And I am wondering, from your standpoint, I will first ask,
is the Army really serious about 100 percent accountability and
making sure that we do everything to assure that there is not a
single set of remains there that is misidentified, misplaced,
and that families have full closure on that?
And is it difficult for you to work under a circumstance
where you come here--obviously, you are committed--but it
doesn't seem like the Secretary or the IG are taking this
seriously? It must be kind of frustrating for you not to have
the people above you taking this issue at Arlington seriously.
And I will look for your comments.
Ms. Condon. Sir, I can tell you personally that the entire
Army, to include the Secretary and the inspector general, do
take the issues at----
Mr. Wittman. Ms. Condon, I hate to say this, but words fail
in this situation. It is obvious that they have something
better to do today than to make sure that Arlington is beyond
reproach with how we treat the men and women who have served
this Nation.
What else on their schedule can be more important than
that? It is obvious that they don't get it. And I know it is
frustrating for you to work under those conditions. And words
fail. Actions speak louder than words.
Ms. Condon. And, sir, actions do speak louder than words,
and you have the commitment of Mr. Hallinan and myself that we
truly are putting together the steps that need to be taken to
do the accountability at Arlington.
I would like to use the analogy that, when we started in
June, we were almost--we moved into a house that didn't have a
foundation. There wasn't an IT infrastructure. There wasn't the
accountability. There wasn't the standards and procedures. So
what we have had to do was to build that first. And now we are
working on the plan to truly move to do the accountability.
Mr. Wittman. Will we be assured that not only going forward
that we have the accountability, but that accountability will
be held in context of what has happened in the past?
I think that is critical for families to have closure and
to make sure, too, that the wrongs of the past are righted in
relation to making sure we assure families with 100 percent
certainty about the identification and the location of their
loved ones.
Ms. Condon. And, sir, we will work for the accountability
from June 10th forward, when Mr. Hallinan and I started, and we
will work on every gravesite in Arlington.
Mr. Wittman. Very good. Mr. Hallinan.
Mr. Hallinan. In support of what Ms. Condon has stated, you
have our commitment, sir, this subcommittee, the families, and
the American public, that we will correct the problems of the
past and ensure that, from an operational standpoint and a
maintenance standpoint, that Arlington is run to the highest
standards.
And, also, we also have a focus on customer service--the
need to be compassionate, the need to be sympathetic, the need
to be understanding--realizing that there are real operational,
systemic issues that need to be repaired and fixed, but, at the
same time, do not lose a sense of the families you are dealing
with and the grief and the trauma they may be going through.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you. Mr. Schneider, could you comment
about the accountability element? Obviously, there have been
wrongs in the past. Can you update us on where the Army is?
Obviously, the inspector general is doing something--hopefully
is doing something. Maybe he is not; maybe that is why he is
not here today.
But maybe you can give us an update on what is going on
with making sure that folks are held accountable for actions of
the past.
Mr. Schneider. And the frustrating thing about that--and I
am sure it is frustrating for the committee; I know it is
frustrating for us--is the superintendent and the deputy
superintendent, as soon as the report--right after the report
was delivered to the Secretary, retired. And our jurisdiction
to take any adverse action against them evaporated the day that
they retired.
Mr. Wittman. Well, I understand that their retirement was
not necessarily a voluntary retirement. But, anyway, that being
said, it is perplexing, I think, to both the committee,
subcommittee, and the public that a letter of reprimand was in
the file, to be removed 6 months later, and that is the extent
of how folks there in the past have been held accountable.
And I would want to know from you, where is the progress
with the inspector general? We hear that there is an ongoing
investigation. Can we expect that to come to a conclusion? Can
we expect actions from that investigation?
Mr. Schneider. Again, I think what you can expect--yes, I
think that will be brought to a conclusion, although I
haven't--I don't track the inspector general investigation.
What I can tell you is, the Secretary has told all of us
that he expects accountability to be one of our top priorities.
And to the extent that the inspector general report identifies
either poor performance or misconduct, the Secretary will
expect us to ensure that accountability is held.
The frustrating thing, again, is, the way in which the
civil service laws work, the tools that we have available to
us, especially when people are retirement-eligible, once they
retire, we have no control. We have no control over when they
retire; they can retire at any time. And, once they are
retired, we lose the opportunity to do anything more to hold
them accountable.
For example, with the letter of reprimand to the
superintendent, that was as much as the Secretary could get
done before he retired.
Mr. Wittman. Mr. Schneider, isn't it correct, though, that
that is limited to administrative procedures on folks that
retire? If there is criminal behavior there, they fall under
the criminal statute. So that doesn't exempt them, if they are
Senior Executive Service, from being prosecuted if they are
found to be criminally----
Mr. Schneider. Absolutely.
Mr. Wittman [continuing]. A criminal wrongdoing.
Mr. Schneider. And what the Criminal Investigation Command
does is they coordinate with the U.S. Attorney who has
jurisdiction. And it is up to the U.S. Attorney, obviously, to
decide--if it is a civilian.
Now, if it is military, it is under the Uniform Code of
Military Justice, and the chain of command can deal with it
appropriately. But for civilians, it would rest with the U.S.
Attorney and, in the case of Arlington, probably for the
Eastern District of Virginia.
Mr. Wittman. Is the inspector general pursuing all courses
of actions concerning past actions there by personnel, both
civil and criminal? Of course, on the civil side, obviously,
that would be the administrative element that you speak of, but
even on the criminal side?
Mr. Schneider. If they discover criminal activity, they
turn it over to the Army's Criminal Investigation Command----
Mr. Wittman. I guess the question is, are they looking at
the potential for criminal activity there?
Mr. Schneider. Sir, I think whenever they find criminal
activity, they turn it over to the CID.
And I think they are committed--I guess what would be best
to do is to get for the record exactly what the Department of
the Army inspector general is doing in this area, so you can
see exactly where they are at.
Mr. Wittman. I think that would be nice, Mr. Schneider. We
will certainly submit some questions in writing. Although, it
would have been nice for the inspector general to be here
today, as I have said. Obviously, he doesn't feel this is very
serious, so we will certainly pose some formal questions to him
and gauge his seriousness with this effort.
Mr. Schneider. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wittman. I am going to pursue one other line of
questioning, and then I am going to turn it over to the other
members of the committee.
Normally, if you look at situations throughout other parts
of the military, there is a certain standard and procedure that
folks go through. And I know that you all had spoken of the
heavy workload that is there and the things that you have to
deal with each and every day--the number of burials, the
maintenance, those kinds of things.
But it seems to be standard practice in other branches of
the military that, when you have something of this magnitude
that happens--in this instance, I think, a tragedy, and whether
it is a plane going down in another branch of the military,
whatever--normally, those branches have a stand-down. They say,
``Okay, we are going to stand things down. We are going to
really get down to what caused this problem.''
It doesn't seem like, in this situation, that there has
been a stand-down, that there has been the direction or the
redirection to say, ``Not only are we going to make sure that
things are happening properly going forward, but we are going
to make sure that those problems that have happened in the past
are taken care of.'' And if you look at stand-down procedures
throughout the military, that is normally the course of
procedure.
I would like your comments on why, in this situation, there
doesn't seem to have been a stand-down that not only addresses
things going forward--and, like I said, I want to give you all
credit for the things that are going on going forward, although
I still think there are things that need to happen there. But
what has happened with problems that have occurred in the past
and how we resolve those particular issues?
Ms. Condon. Sir, if I could, I am very familiar with stand-
down procedures in the military, and I would like to think that
Mr. Hallinan and I really did that. In order for us to do all
the changes that we are making going forward, we had to correct
those issues in the past. And that is what we have been doing.
Mr. Wittman. Very good. Mr. Young.
Mr. Young. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank our
panel for being here today.
Mr. Hallinan, I am a Marine, too, and I know you understand
the ethic ``Semper Fidelis.''
For those who are watching this hearing today, the origin
of ``Semper Fidelis,'' the Marine Corps motto, it speaks to the
seriousness with which the Marine Corps regard loyalty to their
fellow Marines. It extends not just to the living; ``always
faithful'' even extends to those who happen to pass away, those
on the battlefield. And it is the Marine Corps tradition, even
under the most difficult of circumstances, to retrieve those
who have departed in service to our country from the
battlefield, even if that requires great danger to our fellow
soldiers. I think that speaks to the sort of commitment all of
us have as a country to those who have departed and all of
their families.
In this case, we know we have unmarked and mismarked
graves, we had the existence of a mass grave, so many other
things, that it sort of boggles the mind here. And we are
working here constructively, I hope, to address these problems.
I am quite disappointed, as a member of this subcommittee,
that invitations went out to the Secretary of the Army, the
Army inspector general. And I want to say it puts all of you in
a very difficult position. Because one of the first things a
young lieutenant learns in the military is you can delegate
responsibility but not accountability. So any inadequacies we
might discover here today don't just reside with you;
ultimately, accountability, we understand, is a bit higher in
the food chain. And, hopefully, we can speak to the IG and the
Secretary in due course.
We can honor the memory by dealing with the grief and
trauma, as Mr. Hallinan put it, of family members. And what I
want to most learn about from you is whether you individuals--
Mr. Hallinan, Ms. Condon, Mr. Schneider--have reached out to
each and every family that has been impacted by this scandal,
and, if so, how that has taken place, and any other details
that you think might be useful to this panel.
Ms. Condon. Sir, if I could start. Each and every time that
we have discovered a discrepancy in Arlington, the first people
that we do contact are the next of kin.
Mr. Hallinan. When we do discover a discrepancy, if there
is an issue with a gravesite, we are required to contact the
next of kin. We cannot arbitrarily just go into a person's
gravesite. So we are trying to be--we are being transparent. We
are contacting the families.
Mr. Young. And does that involve sending a letter? Through
what means do you contact the family members?
Ms. Condon. Sir, we try to contact them via phone so that
we talk to them, rather than a letter. And if we cannot reach
them by telephone, we follow up with a letter.
Mr. Young. And, presumably, we have a log, records of all
the contacts that have been made and the results of said
contact?
Ms. Condon. Sir, for all the discrepancies, you know, most
of them have been via telephone and we have been very fortunate
to be able to contact the next of kin.
Mr. Young. Is there a further plan of engagement of family
members moving forward? And, if so, what is that plan?
Ms. Condon. Sir, one of the things that Mr. Hallinan and I
have done is we have had a town hall with Gold Star families.
And what it was, it was our opportunity to have those family
members who have lost a loved one talk to us about what they
would expect the new leadership team at Arlington to discuss
with them and any other family member that is in a situation
that we have encountered to date.
Mr. Young. As someone who holds many town hall meetings, I
know those are useful, but their reach can sometimes be
limited. So what sort of participation do you have in these
town hall meetings? And what proportion of the overall family
universe that has been impacted by this tragedy does it touch,
your town hall?
Ms. Condon. Sir, that town hall meeting was put on by TAPS,
and that was the organization that I think did send a letter to
you, Congressman. And they were the ones who orchestrated our
first town hall.
The means that we are trying to do to reach our families is
via our Web site. That is one of the means of communication
that we are using for any issue that we have at the cemetery.
And we are constantly trying to improve that medium, as well.
Mr. Young. Now, I know Web sites, many of us check them
regularly, especially when they have valuable content. But I
know many people do not and they are not comfortable with
computers, perhaps don't even own them.
So are you doing other things in addition to updating a Web
site to keep the family members engaged and fully informed of
progress? Is there a help line? Is there an intermediary
between government, which sometimes can be a sterile
organization, and the impacted families?
Ms. Condon. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, on the first day
on the job when the inspector general hit, we immediately set
up a call center hotline. And it was a telephone--where members
who read this in the media could call us. We now have a
consolidated call center, which is a toll-free number, for
anyone who can call in to the cemetery.
That didn't exist before. Prior to Mr. Hallinan and I and
the call center, we really couldn't tell you how many people
were trying to contact the cemetery, whether for something as
simple as directions, to get a parking pass, or if they truly
had an issue or if they were going to schedule a service for
their loved one.
Right now, we receive over 200 phone calls a day into the
cemetery, which 45 of those are for families who are trying to
schedule services to have their individuals buried. So that is
the means that we are--the call number, the call center, we
answer every call now that comes into the cemetery.
Mr. Young. Can you speak to any specific programs or things
that you have implemented to ensure continuous improvement of
engagement and information being passed down to the families?
For example, surveying them, asking them what sorts of
improvements you might make to better inform them of future
developments.
Ms. Condon. Yes, sir, we are working on that. As I said, we
are trying to build a foundation. What we really had to do was
to even build the IT architecture in the cemetery to even have
the means to put out a survey electronically. But that is one
of the future plans that we are having.
Then we are also putting out a new burial guide that truly
is a guide that will really answer a lot of the questions that
individuals have that, before, they just didn't have a place to
go, which will outline all of the places of how you can contact
anyone in the cemetery.
Mr. Young. And, finally, I am curious about a related
matter. I know many family members care deeply about the
mementos that are left at these gravesites, particularly
military gravesites. There is a real history of that.
Does Arlington National Cemetery now operate some sort of
system for protecting these mementos, properly cataloging them,
and then allowing family members to access this information in
a reliable way?
Ms. Condon. Sir, the mementos are collected in Section 60,
which is where most of the current casualties from the wars
are. And we have our Center for Military History is collecting
those mementos and cataloging them.
And that is one of the long-term plans that is on my plate,
to decide how do we, long term, you know, capture those
mementos for future generations so that we don't lose that.
Mr. Young. So that process has not been fully developed as
yet, is that correct?
Ms. Condon. Right. It is still a pilot that we are still
collecting the mementos and cataloging them. But we have not
finalized, you know, what we are going to do for the future on
that.
Mr. Young. Do you have a time frame by which you intend to
implement?
Ms. Condon. Sir, I don't have the exact date, but, you
know, it is something that I will take as a do-out. And I will
work with the Center of Military History on, you know, what is
the best time to transition for that.
Mr. Young. Okay. Well, I will and I know many of my
colleagues will continue to keep their finger on the pulse of
all these different lines of inquiry. And I expect you will
keep us informed every step of the way.
Ms. Condon. Sir, we will.
Mr. Young. All right. Thank you much.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Young. Mr. Coffman.
Mr. Coffman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I understand we have changed the leadership at the very
top. But, yet, there were whole echelons of subordinate
leadership that were complicit in these activities that are
still there. I mean, I just find that stunning.
I mean, this is an organization that is rotten to its core.
This is an organization that has conducted itself really--I
think the best way to describe it is a culture of incompetence,
if not a culture of corruption. And if this was a military
organization and such an investigation would have occurred, not
only would the Uniform Code of Justice have been used fairly
dramatically, but at all of those echelons of subordinate
leadership, they would have been relieved. They would have been
gone.
You know, I tell you, this organization--and I am a combat
veteran, and I can tell you--does not reflect the values of our
military. They do not honor our military and their sacrifices.
And they need to go.
And so I am asking you, what actions are being taken to
change leadership at every level, to get rid of these people
who have done these things, and start over again?
Ms. Condon. Sir, if I may, in fairness to the workforce,
they weren't trained to do the job. And I will let Mr. Hallinan
follow up on that since he is in charge of--they were not
trained.
I will give an example of one of the supervisors who we
recently sent to the VA training center. It was the first time
he was sent to training in 20-some years of employment at the
cemetery. There weren't standards, there weren't procedures,
and they weren't held accountable.
The thing that Mr. Hallinan and I are doing is giving each
and every one of the workforce the tools to do the job
correctly----
Mr. Coffman. So you are saying these things were okay that
occurred, basically. You are defending the actions that were
taken by this workforce, are you not?
Ms. Condon. Sir, I am not defending the mistakes that were
made in the past.
Mr. Coffman. But it is really okay what they did, because
we can just kind of explain it away. Is that what you are
saying?
Ms. Condon. No, sir, that is not what I am saying.
Mr. Coffman. That is what I am hearing.
Mr. Hallinan. Mr. Congressman, may I take part of that
question, please?
Mr. Coffman. Please.
Mr. Hallinan. It is not okay, and it is not acceptable. If
there was any criminal wrongdoing, if the IG investigation
comes back and provides recommendations about incompetence or
misconduct----
Mr. Coffman. Oh, we know that is there. Please go ahead.
Mr. Hallinan [continuing]. We will address it. A blind eye
will not be turned. People will be held accountable.
The employees, as Ms. Condon was speaking to, were not
provided leadership. Those of you who are combat veterans and
my fellow Marine in the back--no leadership, no guidance, no
direction, absolutely no training. They are one-person deep out
there. And it is a very difficult and challenging situation.
But I can assure you with 100 percent confidence, under our
watch, if they do not respect and honor the service of our
veterans, if it is misconduct or if it is a performance issue,
it will be addressed.
Mr. Coffman. Well, you referenced the Marine Corps. And I
can tell you that the leadership that I am seeing here at
Arlington couldn't lead starving troops to a chow hall. But
that is fundamentally not the issue. You referenced the Marine
Corps, and every Marine has basic values, understands the basic
mission. And what you are, in effect, telling me is that these
people were so incompetent or so poorly led that they didn't
even understand what they were supposed to be doing. Is that
correct?
Mr. Hallinan. What I am saying, Congressman, is we need to
change that culture. There has been identified a definitive
problem. No doubt. We all know this. We need to change that
culture and instill a culture of professionalism and a culture
of honoring our veterans and caring. And we do that
individually and personally by setting that standard and
providing that leadership. And that is what is happening today.
Mr. Coffman. You don't honor veterans and their families by
leaving people in place that have disgraced their memory. You
get rid of them, and you bring in people that have the
integrity, without supervision, you know, that certainly can
independently perform their job and understand--understand--the
sacred nature of that ground. Because, obviously, the culture
of Arlington today does not understand that. And that is a
tragedy.
And I just don't see--maybe we need another change in
leadership at the top, because I don't think you all get it. I
just don't think you get it. I don't think you get how these
families are affected. I just don't think you get it. That is
what I am hearing today, is you don't get it; that you really,
fundamentally, at the end of the day, don't care; that you are
bureaucrats in place.
And we need something--we need to honor these veterans. We
need to honor their families. We need to honor the sacred
ground of Arlington. And I can tell you, we need leadership
that respects that. Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Coffman. Mr. Runyan.
Mr. Runyan. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I thank both of you
for coming here again today.
Many of my colleagues may not know--I know the chairman
does--I had a visit out there, as I said, earlier in mid-March.
I understand my colleague's frustration, but I also know that
there is a reason why these people are here, because of
precisely what you are very upset about and what we are all
frustrated about.
And just, kind of, touch on that. I think we touched on
that when I met with you out there. But has there been a
dramatic turnover in the workforce since you guys took your
positions?
Ms. Condon. Sir, since we have taken over, we have had 15
individuals who have retired or transferred to other positions.
But we have also, as part of a manpower survey, we were
told that there were 57 more people that we really needed to
run the cemetery effectively and efficiently. We have managed
to hire 22 more individuals, we have 24 active recruitments on
the street, to bring in the new team to run Arlington.
Mr. Runyan. And, of your knowledge, since you were either
on an interim basis or permanent, has any incident like this
happened under your watch?
Mr. Hallinan. What type of incident, Congressman?
Performance issues?
Mr. Runyan. Issues that we would have with burials or loved
ones being there and noticing things that have been created
under your watch.
Mr. Hallinan. Yes, we have had two incidents of gravesites
being misassigned.
Mr. Runyan. And that is part of--I know we spoke out
there--part of your process of setting up these parameters and
basically trying to go to a digital system to where it is more
at your fingertips, there is less paper involved. How is that
process going, and how quickly are we moving there?
Because I don't know if many of the other Members know that
most of the records out there are basically in a card catalog
system, and it is basically ancient.
I know you guys are addressing that, but just fill us in on
how that procedure is moving forward.
Ms. Condon. Sir, that procedure is moving forward. What we
are doing is--that is part of the accountability that we are
doing by the public law. What we have to do is we are going to
re-scan all of our records. We are doing that, tying that to a
digital flyover of each and every gravesite so that we truly
will have a digital process for our recordkeeping at Arlington.
And if I could go back on the question about the mistakes
that have happened--and Mr. Hallinan didn't touch on the burial
mistake. The new standards and procedures that we have in
place--the workforce, when they made that mistake, immediately
notified, you know, the chain of command that there was a
switch in the two gravesites. So that the procedures that we
are putting in place are working, because the workforce, when
they made a mistake, came forward to the leadership.
I don't know if you want to expound on that, Mr. Hallinan.
Mr. Hallinan. In the misassignment of the gravesites, what
we found in the past was that it would not be reported to the
leadership. The leadership was not trusted. The leadership was
divided. And it is all part of the IG report, the inspector
general's report.
In this instance, they did come to me and said they made a
mistake. And even though these procedures we are putting in
place are new and they have been trained to those procedures,
when they made the mistake they came forward and let myself
personally know. I let Ms. Condon know. And we have corrected
the mistakes.
Mr. Runyan. Thank you very much. And, you know, with what
has happened out there, I think you guys are living under a
microscope. It is a very ambitious undertaking, and I wish you
all the best. We have to do this, because it is truly for our
heroes. Thank you very much for your testimony. I yield back,
Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Runyan. Mr. Langevin.
Mr. Langevin. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And, first of all, I
want to thank you for holding this hearing and paying attention
to this all-important issue of the lapses that took place at
Arlington and how we get this right.
I know that the folks at the table are new to their
positions, and they are charged with trying to make things
right. And I want to thank you for the work that you are doing.
I, like many of my colleagues and the American people, were
appalled at the lapses that had taken place and how remains
were not properly handled and the things that--wrong gravesite
burials and remains in the wrong place. It is totally
unacceptable.
We have an obligation not only to, obviously, support our
warfighters and, certainly, support our veterans, particularly
those disabled, but the ultimate sign of respect, of course, is
how we treat our soldiers at the end of their lives and how
their remains are properly handled afterwards. So I am grateful
that we are paying attention to this issue of how we make
things right at Arlington.
I will have several questions for the record, Mr. Chairman.
Just one question for purposes of this hearing right now.
First of all, I understand that it is the Army that
basically is responsible for Arlington National Cemetery.
Around the country, the veterans cemeteries, from what I
understand, are mainly handled by the VA.
Could you give me the pros and cons of the Army continuing
to have jurisdiction and oversight and, basically, operational
control over Arlington National Cemetery versus the VA? What
are the pros and cons for either method, if we were to transfer
jurisdiction to the VA?
Mr. Hallinan. Being a former VA employee until recently,
Congressman, and responsible for those 131 national cemeteries
that are highly maintained with a dedicated workforce, I do
want to say that Arlington National Cemetery is currently being
operated and maintained to those same consistent standards.
Arlington National Cemetery--and this touches upon
something the chairman spoke to early in one of his questions--
is unique. Can we stand down? Is it like an aircraft carrier;
should it be taken in and dry-docked and overhauled?
Unfortunately not an option. We have families, 27 interments,
burials on a constant basis.
Arlington is unique. It is one of the busiest national
cemeteries in the United States, if not the entire world.
Arlington National Cemetery conducts over 3,000 ceremonies; has
dignitaries, heads of state from around the world that come pay
their respect to America's fallen service men and women.
Arlington also provides graveside service, which VA cemeteries
do not.
And, additionally, Washington, DC, and Arlington National
Cemetery is one of the most visited tourist spots in the
country. We average over 4 million visitors who come also to
learn of the history and pay their respects. There is no other
VA cemetery like that. These complexities are challenging, and
they are very real.
One thing I would like to add for the record is that the
families that Ms. Condon and I have dealt with--because we do
get feedback on a daily basis from the families that come in
and out--encourage us. So, through difficult times for them,
they are encouraging us to correct and fix the problems.
But the families we have met and spoke with, and
specifically the Gold Star parents that we have met with, their
feelings on that issue, Mr. Congressman--and I was on the
defensive as a VA employee at that point--they felt quite
passionately and adamantly that Arlington should stay under the
Army and not become a VA national cemetery.
And lastly--and Ms. Condon can follow up--I believe, based
on being on the ground and dealing with these issues, that the
Army has the resources and has the commitment to fix the past
mistakes and to operate Arlington National Cemetery effectively
into the future.
Ms. Condon. And, sir, if I can add, the mistakes that
happened and Arlington being broken, the Army needs to fix it.
When things are broken in the Army, the Army needs to fix the
issues that happened in the past.
And then, you know, the decision--once it is fixed, then we
can make the decision on if, you know, Arlington should remain
under DOD [Department of Defense], which--I agree with Mr.
Hallinan, because of the uniqueness of all of the things that
we do at Arlington, that it should be a DOD-run cemetery.
Mr. Langevin. Very good. Well, I thank you for your
answers. This committee takes this issue of getting things
right at Arlington very seriously, as does every Member of
Congress. And we are going to continue to provide aggressive
oversight.
Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you again for holding this
hearing, and my colleagues who participated in this hearing,
and the folks at the table.
And, as I said, I know you are new in your positions and
you are charged with getting things right at Arlington, and we
look forward to continue working with you. As I said, there is
no greater sign of respect than how we treat our soldiers at
the end of their life and their final interment, and we want to
make sure that we are providing the ultimate respect. Thank
you. I yield back.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Langevin. We appreciate you
joining us here at the hearing today.
I want to do a couple of follow-up questions. First, you
talked about discrepancies. Have you identified exactly how
many discrepancies exist? And is there a plan of action to
address those?
Ms. Condon. Sir, when we do our accountability effort that
we are mandated by law, when we check all of the records with
the actual gravesite, that should identify where we may have
potential discrepancies in the cemetery. When we do that, then
we will address each and every one of those discrepancies. And,
as we stated before, in the first course of action, if we find
a discrepancy, is that we will contact the families that are
involved.
Mr. Wittman. When do you expect to complete that evaluation
of the entire cemetery to discover the full content and
magnitude of the discrepancies that exist?
Ms. Condon. Sir, as you know, we have the public law that
says I have to do that by December 22nd of this year.
Mr. Wittman. Okay.
Ms. Condon. And we are well on our way of putting forward
the plan and starting the effort to do just that.
Mr. Wittman. So you expect to comply with that by December
22nd?
Ms. Condon. Sir, I will--we will do our best to comply by
that date.
Mr. Wittman. Okay. I would like for you to say that you
will accomplish it.
Ms. Condon. Yes.
Mr. Wittman. Doing your best is great, but accomplishing it
is what we all want.
Ms. Condon. Got it, sir.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you. Thank you.
I wanted to ask, too, I know that there is obviously a wide
scope of problems, discrepancies, issues. Have you all
contemplated putting together a panel of experts from other
areas, such as the VA, to do an independent look at the things
that you face--the recordkeeping system, the identification of
remains, the operational issues there? Have you thought about
doing that, rather than continuing to do it internally?
Because it seems like, internally, we continue on a weekly
basis to learn more and more about the things that are going on
there. So I am wondering if it may not be time to have an
independent panel come in and take a look.
Ms. Condon. Sir, as you know, we are in the process of
nominating for the Arlington Commission. I didn't realize how,
you know, putting a FACA commission in, all the requirements to
get your members nominated and actually on board.
That was one of the reasons for putting that independent
commission together. Secretary McHugh has directed that. And
that is what we are going to be using the independent
commission for, is that outside look of the issues at
Arlington. And they could recommend other views that they feel
that need to be, to make sure that Mr. Hallinan and I are doing
all that we need to do.
Mr. Wittman. So the independent commission--I want to make
sure I am clear--the independent commission is going to be
looking at existing operations. But will they also be looking
at discrepancies in the past and what should be done to fix
those discrepancies? And then will they also look at the
problem operationally with conduct of personnel there at
Arlington?
Ms. Condon. Sir, you know, since the commission hasn't
started yet--but those are probably very good agenda items that
we could put on the commission to look at or to recommend,
issues that we should have, perhaps, other commissions look at.
Mr. Wittman. Is there a date certain for this commission
starting its work?
Ms. Condon. Sir, we are putting together the nomination
packages and forwarding them through the process. And I don't
know when all of those will be approved and vetted, but we are
trying our best to get it done within the next several months.
Mr. Wittman. Okay. All right. We would like a little more
specificity on that. I think the urgency, obviously, is before
us. I think the public wants to see things done and, obviously,
people there to provide that guidance, that independent
commission that the Secretary puts in place. I think timeliness
is of the essence. So it would certainly be, I think, very,
very important.
I want to go back again to Mr. Schneider. I think we cannot
understate the efforts that need to be undertaken by the IG in
looking at all of the past performance there of employees.
And, again, as more and more of this comes to light, just
as Mr. Coffman said, it is beyond me that somehow there wasn't
significant wrongdoing. And I don't want to prejudge people,
but I can tell you, externally, looking at this, it sure
appears to me that there was more than just oversight or
mistakes being made there, that this type of action and
behavior, if it is not criminal sure seems that way.
So I want to get a little more definition about where the
IG is in that investigation, when they hope to come to some
kind of conclusion, when we can hope to hear something.
I hope this isn't an effort where this is a marathon where
the IG is just trying to continue to push this into future and
hopefully the issue will go away. Because I can assure you,
from this committee's standpoint, the issue is not going away.
Mr. Schneider. Well, I think two things. Number one, I
think we get it that it is not going away and this committee is
not going to let it go away.
Secondly, we owe you an answer on where the IG is going and
when the IG expects to be completed with its work. My belief is
the IG will take it wherever it goes, and if criminal activity
is identified, it will be turned over to the criminal
investigators for them to work through their process.
And, again, if it is military people, it would be under the
Uniform Code of Military Justice. If it is civilians, it would
be Title 18 and handled through the Justice Department and U.S.
Attorney's office.
Mr. Wittman. Okay. Well, we can hope to get something
definitive out of the IG?
Mr. Schneider. I will go back tonight, and----
Mr. Wittman. Okay.
Mr. Schneider [continuing]. This will be number one on my
agenda.
Mr. Wittman. Very good. Well, we would like to hear from
them. And we will also be submitting some questions for the
record----
Mr. Schneider. Yes, sir.
Mr. Wittman [continuing]. To the IG and asking that they
respond within a short time period. We will put it like that.
I wanted to follow a little bit further up on Mr.
Langevin's question, because I think it is very, very pertinent
to what we are dealing with here. There has been a lot of
suggestion--we have had a lot of calls from veterans who said,
hey, you know, the cemetery there may be better run by the VA,
for a variety of reasons. And I respect Mr. Hallinan's
viewpoint on that, having worked on the VA side and come over
to the Arlington side.
But the question always comes up, the Army's mission is
winning wars, it is not really running cemeteries. And with the
problems that have occurred there, the question then becomes,
are we better off going to the VA, especially with the
magnitude of the cemeteries that they manage, to look at how do
we re-establish faith, how do we re-establish trust there at
Arlington.
And I wouldn't expect anything other than to say, hey, the
Army can do the job. But I also want, too--I know that
professionally both of you have seen operations both in the VA
and the Army. And I know that there, obviously, are some ideas
that you are going to have that are going to say, keep it in
the Army.
But I do want to get your thoughts about, what strengths do
you see the VA bringing to the table in the way that they run
their facilities? And I want to put that in context to
understand what might be still lacking there at Arlington.
Ms. Condon. Sir, if I could start on that one, first of
all, right now I think if we were to transition today to the
VA, I think the turmoil that that would cause at Arlington
would probably impact our veterans and their families to a
great extent.
I think what we really need to do is, as I stated before,
is to put together those standards and procedures and fix the
issues, and then make the determination on where Arlington
should go.
Mr. Wittman. Okay. Very good.
Mr. Hallinan, I know you had elaborated on that, but I
don't know if you had any additional comments.
Mr. Hallinan. I agree, Mr. Chairman. I think the Army
should fix the problem. I think we should restore some faith
and trust of the families. And then that decision can be made
by this body or another committee or body if that is the
correct course of action.
But I think, for the here and the now, we need to correct
and we need to move Arlington forward.
Mr. Wittman. Very good. Any other questions?
Yes, Mr. Coffman.
Mr. Coffman. Ms. Condon, can you clarify when you said that
changing from the Army to the Veterans Administration might
cause turmoil for the veterans and their families?
Ms. Condon. Sir, because one of the things that Mr.
Hallinan and I have experienced as we are putting and
implementing the new changes in standards and procedures and
getting the workforce to adapt to the new accountability that
we are doing, I think if we were to take the workforce that we
have now and to put a whole new leadership team in there, it
would create a turmoil and chaos that would impact our veterans
and their families and the services that we provide at
Arlington in a day.
Mr. Coffman. So you actually believe that there is a level
of incompetence beyond what has been done? You got to be
kidding. You can't be serious about that. I mean, the fact is,
the United States Army--and God bless it as an organization; I
was once a soldier--but it has demonstrated such a level of
incompetence in the management of Arlington that it needs to
step aside and let the Veterans Administration come in there
and lead and serve the veterans and their families and end this
turmoil. And I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wittman. Thank you, Mr. Coffman. I want to follow up on
one additional question also. You talk about making sure that
you are identifying these issues going forward, making sure you
are taking care of them, in context of doing 27-plus burials a
day.
My question is this. It seems like, in that context, you
would want to have a team that does nothing but implement these
improvements, taking up these discrepancies. And it is great to
say we are dealing with 27 burials, but if you are really
serious about getting this done, are there plans on putting in
place an implementation team to say, ``Your job is to do
nothing but fix the past wrongs, make sure that there is 100
percent certainty in the identification and location of
remains, to get the paper system into a digital form.'' And I
know we met several members of the Army there that are working
on that.
But my question is, will we have a bifurcated process--day-
to-day operations, implementation--to right past wrongs?
Ms. Condon. Sir, as a matter of fact, we are putting
together a task force, headed by a colonel who was a signal
officer, to address solely the accountability aspect of the
cemetery.
Mr. Wittman. Okay. Very good.
Mr. Schneider. And, sir, one issue I would like to add on--
it is something we were talking about before--is sharing of
information and skill with the Department of Veterans Affairs.
Maybe we should have some Army employees go off and work at VA
for a while, have some VA employees come.
And Ms. Condon and I have talked about the need for
military officers, Army officers, to be assigned at Arlington.
And I think it gets to something Mr. Coffman was talking about,
in terms of, no kidding, we need some people. And, gosh, if we
could get, you know, men and women, officers who have served in
Iraq and Afghanistan to come in and help us make sure we do the
right thing, I think that would be something that we would want
to do.
So I am going to work with Ms. Condon from the personnel
side and see that we can't make that happen.
Ms. Condon. And, sir, if I may add to that, when we did the
new manpower structure, we did add military spaces to our
structure. And it has truly made all of the difference in how
Arlington has operated when you really have, as Colonel Koch
saw, when you have a lieutenant colonel who was actually
calling you in his very military fashion and telling you that
you have an issue. So that has truly been one of the
improvements that I think is very important at Arlington.
Mr. Wittman. Very good. Thank you, Ms. Condon. Mr. Runyan,
do you have any other questions?
Mr. Runyan. No.
Mr. Wittman. Okay. Well, I want to conclude by thanking the
witnesses for coming today. We are going to place great
attention on the efforts there at Arlington.
I hope that you will pass on to the Secretary and the Army
inspector general that we missed having them here today, and we
are going to continue to place a focus on this issue, again, to
make sure that there is no question left at Arlington that any
family has with the location or identification of remains
there. I think that is critical.
And I want to close with a quote from Colonel Koch in his
testimony. I think it is very compelling, and I think it is the
best way to close and to denote the challenges ahead.
Colonel Koch said this, he said, ``I think we have more
than one unknown soldier at Arlington now. I think that we want
to make sure that we go back to only having one Tomb of the
Unknown there at Arlington.''
Ladies and gentlemen, thank you all so much for joining us
today.
I want to remind the committee members that you have 14
days by which to submit additional questions that we will
submit to the Army for their answers.
And we look forward to having some quick responses to those
questions as we submit them to you.
Thank you. And, with that, the subcommittee is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 4:15 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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A P P E N D I X
April 14, 2011
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April 14, 2011
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QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MEMBERS POST HEARING
April 14, 2011
=======================================================================
QUESTIONS SUBMITTED BY MR. WITTMAN
Mr. Wittman. When will the Arlington Commission be up and running?
What will their agenda specifically be?
Ms. Condon.
The Army National Cemeteries Advisory Commission Charter
was filed on October 11, 2010 and will consist of nine full time
members. The Commission will maintain balanced membership that includes
a cross-section of qualified experts on, as well as others having a
strong vested interest in, the dignified transfer and burial of remains
eligible for interment or inurnment in the Army National Cemeteries,
veteran's affairs, service member's entitlements and surviving family
matters.
Per Department of Defense policy (DoDI 5105.04),
Commission member nominations will be handled as confidential until
approved by the appointing authority. Those who are not currently full-
time or permanent part-time Federal officers or employees shall be
appointed as experts and consultants under the authority of 5 U.S.C.
Sec. 3109 and shall serve as special government employees.
The initial agenda of the Commission will be to establish
business protocols and practices; receive ethics training; and become
acquainted with the overall operation and conditions at Arlington
National Cemetery and the Soldiers' and Airmen's' Home Cemetery. Topics
to be addressed as general business will be directed by the Secretary
of the Army and Executive Director. Initial topic agenda items include:
o Strategic planning to extend the life of active burials at
Arlington National Cemetery which includes the Millennium
Project and Navy Annex
o Long term implications of Section 60 Mementos study
o Repair of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier
Mr. Wittman. What are the details of the inspector general
investigation? When will it be complete?
Mr. Schneider. The current, ongoing Department of the Army
Inspector General (IG) investigation relating to ANC is under review by
the Department of Defense Inspector General. This investigation is in
regards to an incident that occurred in 2010 where a Service member's
remains were disinterred then reinterred. In addition, the Department
of the Army Inspector General provided additional information to
Criminal Investigation Command (CID) to consider as a part of their
currently on-going criminal investigation.
Because this is an ongoing investigation, it is not possible to
establish a definitive completion date. I will keep the committee
appraised of the investigation results as the information is made
available.
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