[House Hearing, 111 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office]
NEXT STEPS FOR HONDURAS
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
THE WESTERN HEMISPHERE
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MARCH 18, 2010
__________
Serial No. 111-94
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/
----------
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California, Chairman
GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida
ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
Samoa DAN BURTON, Indiana
DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey ELTON GALLEGLY, California
BRAD SHERMAN, California DANA ROHRABACHER, California
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois
BILL DELAHUNT, Massachusetts EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York RON PAUL, Texas
DIANE E. WATSON, California JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri MIKE PENCE, Indiana
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey JOE WILSON, South Carolina
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
MICHAEL E. McMAHON, New York J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina
JOHN S. TANNER, Tennessee CONNIE MACK, Florida
GENE GREEN, Texas JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska
LYNN WOOLSEY, California MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas TED POE, Texas
BARBARA LEE, California BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada GUS BILIRAKIS, Florida
JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
MIKE ROSS, Arkansas
BRAD MILLER, North Carolina
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
JIM COSTA, California
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota
GABRIELLE GIFFORDS, Arizona
RON KLEIN, Florida
VACANT
Richard J. Kessler, Staff Director
Yleem Poblete, Republican Staff Director
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Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York, Chairman
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York CONNIE MACK, Florida
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas
GENE GREEN, Texas CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
GABRIELLE GIFFORDS, Arizona DAN BURTON, Indiana
ENI F. H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American ELTON GALLEGLY, California
Samoa RON PAUL, Texas
DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska
JOHN S. TANNER, Tennessee GUS BILIRAKIS, Florida
BARBARA LEE, California
JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
RON KLEIN, Florida
Jason Steinbaum, Subcommittee Staff Director
Eric Jacobstein, Subcommittee Professional Staff Member
Julie Schoenthaler, Staff Associate
C O N T E N T S
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Page
WITNESSES
The Honorable Craig A. Kelly, Principal Deputy Assistant
Secretary, Bureau of Western Hemisphere Affairs, U.S.
Department of State (Former U.S. Ambassador to Chile).......... 18
Ms. Vicki Gass, Senior Associate for Rights and Development,
Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA)...................... 40
The Honorable Cresencio ``Cris'' Arcos (Former Assistant
Secretary of Homeland Security for International Affairs)
(Former U.S. Ambassador to Honduras)........................... 52
His Excellency Kevin Casas-Zamora, Senior Fellow, Foreign Policy
and Latin America Initiative, The Brookings Institution (Former
Minister of National Planning and Economic Policy and Second
Vice President of Costa Rica).................................. 60
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a Representative in Congress from
the State of New York, and Chairman, Subcommittee on the
Western Hemisphere: Prepared statement......................... 4
The Honorable Connie Mack, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Florida: Prepared statement........................... 8
The Honorable Craig A. Kelly: Prepared statement................. 20
Ms. Vicki Gass: Prepared statement............................... 43
The Honorable Cresencio ``Cris'' Arcos: Prepared statement....... 54
His Excellency Kevin Casas-Zamora: Prepared statement............ 63
APPENDIX
Hearing notice................................................... 82
Hearing minutes.................................................. 83
The Honorable Connie Mack, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Florida: Statement of Lanny J. Davis, Attorney........ 84
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated March 17, 2010, to the
Honorable Hugo Llorens, U.S. Ambassador to Honduras............ 86
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated March 18, 2010, from
the Honorable Hugo Llorens..................................... 88
The Honorable Barbara Lee, a Representative in Congress from the
State of California: Register of Politically Motivated Violent
Deaths of Individuals, June 2009 to February 2010.............. 90
The Honorable Barbara Lee: Press Release, ``IACHR Deplores
Murders, Kidnappings, and Attacks in Honduras''................ 94
The Honorable Barbara Lee: Letter dated March 3, 2010, to the
Attorney General of Honduras Urging Investigations into Attacks
on Coup Opponents.............................................. 96
The Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Indiana: Report dated February 21, 2008, from the
Library of Congress on the Laws of Honduras.................... 98
The Honorable Dan Burton: USTR Annual NTE Report 2006--Honduras.. 104
The Honorable Dan Burton: USTR Annual NTE Report 2007--Honduras.. 105
The Honorable Dan Burton: Letter dated September 23, 2004, from
Nelson Parks, Deputy Director for Production and Consumption,
Secretary of Industry and Commerce, Republic of Honduras and
Cement Investigation Report.................................... 106
The Honorable Dan Burton: Inter-agency Memo Regarding Illegal
Practices Against CEMAR........................................ 111
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Criminal Complaint against Acts of
Corruption..................................................... 113
The Honorable Dan Burton: Honduras Attorney General Position on
CEMAR Bankruptcy............................................... 115
The Honorable Dan Burton: Letter dated July 14, 2008, from the
Honorable Larry L. Palmer...................................... 122
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated January 6, 2009, from
Stuart E. Eizenstat, Covington & Burling LLP................... 124
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated April 28, 2009, from
Oscar M. Cerna regarding State Department Response to
Congressional Letter........................................... 129
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated June 19, 2009, to the
Honorable Hillary Clinton, United States Department of State,
from Members of Congress....................................... 131
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter from Assistant Secretary
Richard R. Verma, United States Department of State, in
response to June 19 letter from Members of Congress............ 138
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated January 11, 2010, to
the Honorable Hillary Rodham Clinton from the Honorable John
Conyers, Jr., a Representative in Congress from the State of
Michigan and Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary.............. 140
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated March 17, 2010, to the
Honorable Hillary Rodham Clinton from the Honorable Charles B.
Rangel, a Representative in Congress from the State of New York 142
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter dated January 21, 2010, to
the Honorable Lugo Llorens..................................... 144
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Letter received March 11, 2010,
from Assistant Secretary Richard R. Verma to the Honorable
Eliot L. Engel................................................. 146
The Honorable Dan Burton: Chronological Sequence of Events in Mr.
Cortez Byrd vs. The Republic of Honduras....................... 147
The Honorable Dan Burton: Letter dated September 18, 2008, from
Cortez Byrd authorizing Mike Parker to make any and all
decisions on his behalf........................................ 149
The Honorable Dan Burton: Letter dated May 13, 2009, from Cortez
Byrd to the Honorable Gregg Harper, a Representative in
Congress from the State of Mississippi......................... 150
The Honorable Eliot L. Engel: Final judgement of the United
States District Court, Southern District of Mississippi,
Jackson Division............................................... 152
NEXT STEPS FOR HONDURAS
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THURSDAY, MARCH 18, 2010
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:56 p.m. in
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Eliot L. Engel
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. Engel. A quorum being present, the Subcommittee on the
Western Hemisphere will come to order.
Last year, hemispheric affairs were dominated by the
political crisis in Honduras. With today's hearing, I encourage
my colleagues and our witnesses to be forward-looking in our
discussion of Honduras.
While I am certainly not asking anyone to forget the events
that took place last year, this hearing is not intended to be a
review of 2009. Suffice to say, and I have said this many
times, that I believe that President Obama and Secretary
Clinton's management of U.S. policy toward Honduras last year
was excellent. The United States stuck to core democratic
principles, while at the same time, looking forward to a post-
Micheletti Honduras.
As we look ahead and focus on next steps for Honduras, I am
pleased to see efforts by the Obama administration and several
countries in the Americas to reach out to Honduran President
Pepe Lobo. Working closely with President Lobo is crucial. At
the same time, the inter-American community must ensure that
steps are taken to implement key pieces of the Tegucigalpa-San
Jose accord.
I would like to briefly mention efforts that I believe
should be taken both by the Honduran Government and the inter-
American community in the coming months.
First and foremost, a robust Truth Commission must be
established to investigate events from last year. I was pleased
by the selection of my friend, former Guatemalan Vice President
Eduardo Stein, to head the Truth Commission. The Commission's
work must be done transparently, and it must ensure complete
accountability.
Secondly, we must continue to closely monitor the
increasingly worrisome human rights situation in Honduras.
Recent murders of Hondurans who were active in their resistance
to the coup or related to activists must not go unnoticed.
I am particularly troubled by the murders of three Honduran
journalists this month. This past Sunday, Nahun Palacios, a
journalist who covered demonstrations organized by the
resistance of the coup and expressed his rejection of the
removal of President Zelaya, was gunned down. I appreciate the
strong statement of the Inter-American Commission on Human
Rights, and believe that those responsible for these heinous
crimes must be held accountable.
Last year was especially brutal for Honduras' lesbian, gay,
bisexual and transgender community. Attacks on that community
escalated substantially, starting in June with 19 known murders
of prominent members of the LGBT community. In addition, non-
lethal attacks and other violent acts against LGBT individuals
were reported on an alarming scale, and additional murders have
gone unreported.
The human rights defenders who have documented these abuses
have been threatened, and the atmosphere of intimidation for
members of the LGBT community remains high.
Yesterday, I sent a letter with Foreign Affairs Committee
Ranking Member Ileana Ros-Lehtinen to U.S. Ambassador to
Honduras Hugo Llorens, urging him to work with President Lobo
to curb violence against the country's LGBT community. I was
delighted to do it jointly with Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and she
and I have done many, many things jointly over the past many
years.
Ambassador Llorens responded to our letter this morning,
stating his commitment to raise these issues with the Lobo
administration. I am inserting a copy of this letter and
Ambassador Llorens' response into the hearing record.
Thirdly, I hope that we will act swiftly to re-admit
Honduras to the Organization of American States. And I
certainly believe that this must be done prior to the OAS
General Assembly that will take place in Lima, Peru in June.
Fourth, I have become increasingly concerned about the rule
of law and the protection of the property rights of U.S.
investors in Honduras.
At the hearing we had last week, a number of us mentioned
this. Mr. Burton was especially vocal, and I mentioned it, as
well. We feel very strongly about this on both sides of the
aisle.
Several cases have been brought to my attention which paint
a picture of an investment climate where assets of investors
are not protected. In several cases, companies have been
expropriated or driven out of business and U.S. owners never
compensated.
I present three examples. Firstly, I cite the case of the
CEMAR cement company. In this instance, the Honduran military
and Honduran cement manufacturers allegedly conspired to drive
an American cement company out of business. The U.S. investor,
Oscar Cerna, has ever since sought redress of this very
legitimate claim. It is something that we cannot sweep under
the rug. This is an American citizen, and we cannot allow our
citizens to be treated this way.
Secondly, I have learned about the case of Andreas Kafati,
an American businessman whose partial ownership of a coffee
business was taken through alleged manipulation of shares and
the workings of a now-convicted Honduran judge.
Also, there is the case of Cortez Byrd, an American citizen
who won a $188 million judgment in a U.S. Federal court against
a company which is 98 percent owned by the Government of
Honduras. Honduras has not yet paid the legal judgment.
If I were an American citizen or company looking at these
and other cases, I would think twice before investing in
Honduras. Honduras is a poor country which needs international
investment if it is going to grow its economy and create jobs.
But unless the assets of the United States and other
international investors will be protected, scarce capital will
go elsewhere.
It is my hope that the new Government of Honduras will take
a fresh look at these and other cases, and act without delay to
make the investors whole while seeking to improve the
investment climate for the future.
Finally, these cases leave me with two open questions.
First, while the State Department asserts that it assists
American business, investors are reporting to me that advocacy
by our embassy has been less than vigorous; and that is putting
it generously.
Secondly, resuming our foreign assistance to Honduras is
important. But at the same time, the Honduran Government needs
to respond to these serious cases of American citizens who are
still seeking redress for their legitimate claims. I want to
repeat that. Resuming our foreign assistance to Honduras is
important. But at the same time, the Honduras Government needs
to respond to these serious cases of American citizens who are
still seeking redress for their legitimate claims. I will be
asking Ambassador Kelly to address these points today.
So in conclusion, I hope today's hearing will help us to
create a framework to move forward our relationship with
Honduras in the coming year. We all look forward to hearing the
testimony of our excellent Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary
of State for Western Hemisphere Affairs, Craig Kelly; as well
as our private witnesses.
I had the good fortune to visit Secretary Kelly at the
State Department just a few days ago. We can rest comfortably
knowing that his stewardship is at the helm, and I am delighted
that he is here for us.
I am now pleased to call on the ranking member for his
opening statement.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Engel
follows:]Engel statement
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Mack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for
holding this important hearing today. Before I begin, I would
like to recognize the former chair of the committee, Ben
Gilman, for being here and for all your work you have done.
I would also like to, before I begin my opening statement,
take a moment to thank our witnesses who are here today, and
also to inform the subcommittee that the Minority's witness,
Mr. Lanny Davis, was called out of town at the last minute, and
is unavailable to be here with us today. I have a copy of
testimony, and I ask unanimous consent to submit his testimony
for the record.
Mr. Engel. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Mack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. A lot has changed in the
past year in Honduras. We saw a Chavez croney and fellow
thugacrat, Manuel Zelaya, try to change the Honduran
Constitution to rule for life. We saw the Honduran Supreme
Court and the Honduran Congress follow their Constitution in
the rule of law by removing Zelaya from power.
We saw the OAS, the U.N., and even the Obama administration
come out on the wrong side of history and call Zelaya a coup.
And to top it off, we saw our own State Department threaten
Honduras to reinstate by withholding vital aid and revoking
visas of Honduran officials.
At this subcommittee last week, the Assistant Secretary
referred to the situation in Honduras as a coup. His reasoning,
President Zelaya was not given ``the most elementary due
process of law.'' Nothing could be further from the truth.
It is important to note that the Honduran military never
took control over any of the levers of power. The Honduran
Government institutions worked; and just so we have a clear
understanding, in May 2009, President Zelaya worked with his
friend, Hugo Chavez, and ordered a referendum to take place on
November 29th, 2009 that would remove Presidential term limits.
The Honduran Constitution specifically prohibits this; and
thus, Zelaya violated Article 239 of the Honduran Constitution.
On May 29th, 2009, the Attorney General recommended that
the Honduran courts hold that Zelaya's referendum was illegal
and unconstitutional. In late June, the Supreme Court ordered
the Honduran forces not to provide support for the referendum.
On June 27th, in opposition to the Supreme Court order, Zelaya
led a violent mob to seize and distribute the ballots for the
referendum. On June 28th, the Supreme Court issued an arrest
order for Zelaya and removed him from the presidency. On June
28th, the Honduran military acted on a warrant from the
Honduran Supreme Court and removed Zelaya from power. He was
later put on a plane out of the country for his own protection,
as well as other security reasons.
Later, the Honduran Congress, pursuant to the Honduran
Constitution voted Micheletti as the President. Micheletti was
constitutionally next in line for succession, and assumed the
presidency on an interim basis. The military was never in
control of Honduras. President Micheletti never interfered with
the ongoing Presidential campaign, nor interfered with the
previously planned November 29th Presidential election.
On November 29th, 2009, Hondurans voted in the Presidential
election for Mr. Lobo, who won with 56 percent of the vote. On
December 2nd, the Honduran Congress voted again, 111 to 14, to
not reinstate ousted President Zelaya. The Supreme Court and
the Attorney General also recommended this outcome. I think
these are important facts that, as we talk about Honduras, that
we keep in mind.
And while some have criticized the Honduran military for
ushering Zelaya out of the country, his removal saved lives and
prevented dangerous riots and violence in the streets. What
happened in Honduras was not a coup, and the administration
needs to stop calling it that.
Honduras did all we could ever ask of a country faced with
assault on its democracy. I am very proud of the Honduras
people for standing up to the thugacrats of the region; and I
want to take a moment to thank President Micheletti for his
commitment to freedom.
When I traveled to Honduras last July, I had a chance to
meet with President Micheletti. I have also spoken to him on
the phone a number of times since my trip. I was struck by his
dedication to the ideals of freedom and his commitment to the
Honduran people. He was a proven leader in the face of great
adversity, and he should be applauded for his leadership during
this crisis.
The people of Honduran did their part, and now we must do
ours. I am encouraged by the actions taken thus far by
Secretary Clinton and the State Department. We have restored
much of the military, humanitarian and anti-drug tracking
assistance to Honduras.
The administration has also recognized the legitimacy of
the November elections and President Lobo's administration; but
we must do more. Secretary Clinton has said earlier this month
that the United States will be restoring aid to Honduras. This
is welcome news. But it is my understanding that this aid will
be restored incrementally.
Any remaining withheld aid must be restored at once. The
revoked visas of several Honduran officials, Supreme Court
justices must be reinstated immediately by our State
Department. And although I believe the OAS is dysfunctional,
what message does it send to our allies in Latin America, if we
will not even support normalizing relations with Honduras in
the international community?
It is no secret that some Latin American nations prefer to
see Zelaya's return to power, and they still wrongly believe
that recognizing the new government will endorse the great work
of President Micheletti.
The United States must now stand with these thugocrats.
Instead, we should help our ally in Central America. We must
support their continued struggle for democracy and freedom. We
must support the democratic institutions. We must support the
American business men and women in Honduras, and ensure they
have a free environment to conduct their business.
Honduras is a strong partner and friend of the United
States; and for the freedom, security and prosperity of the
hemisphere, we must be a strong partner and friend to them.
Thank you, and I look forward to hearing from our witnesses
today. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Mack follows:]Mack
statement
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Engel. Thank you, Mr. Mack; and I, too, would like to
extend a warm welcome to our former chairman of this committee,
Ben Gilman, who sat in this seat many, many times. His portrait
is--where is it, to the right. But he looks much better in
person, actually. So thank you, Mr. Chairman, for gracing us
with your presence; Mr. Sires?
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding today's
hearing. The international recognition of Porfirio Lobo as
President of Honduras offers a welcome contrast to the
political distress and disorganization of Honduras last year.
The political unrest illustrated how fragile democracy can be.
In the aftermath of President Zelaya's presidency, his ousting,
and the political climate that existed under Micheletti,
Honduran must recommit itself to demonstrating solid democracy
practices in upholding human rights.
But internal steps by President Lobo and the Honduran
Government may not be enough. The Western Hemisphere community
needs to work to support countries that are making positive
steps toward democratic practices, and speak up when countries
drift from these principles.
Unfortunately, the hemisphere's standards for human rights
practices and democracy have been inconsistent. Honduras, with
a newly recognized democratically elected President was
excluded from the February of the Rio Group in Cancun; while
the Cuban Regime was allowed to attend. Honduran continued to
be isolated from the OAS, while Cuba is welcome.
These signals are troubling and inconsistent with the OAS.
It is clear that Western Hemisphere needs strong leadership and
strong standards. I look forward to hearing from the witnesses
about how the United States and the international community can
help Honduras to build its human rights and democracy record;
thank you.
Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I would ask
unanimous consent that my full statement be made a part of the
record.
Mr. Engel. Without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Smith. First, I want to associate myself strongly with
the comments made by our ranking member, Mr. Mack, and your
comments, as well. But I want to thank him for being so very
clear about what happened last year.
Many of us, and I remember when we held the hearing last
year here, we heard from Members of the Supreme Court, Lanny
Davis, and many others. It could not have been more clear that
President Zelaya's illegal moves to subvert the Constitution
was selfish, petty, and was for his own personal advancement.
It was to consolidate power in a Hugo Chavez style, which would
have meant dictatorship, especially over time, for the people
of Honduras.
You know, the people rose up. The Congress, in an
overwhelming vote, votes on all sides of the aisle; the Supreme
Court, the Attorney General; and above all, the people,
recognized that the real coup was coming from President Zelaya.
And I want to commend Honduran people for demanding that human
rights and especially democracy, and the rules of democracy and
the rule of law be followed, and to be followed so very
carefully.
That said, I think we are also very happy that the crisis
has transitioned, and the people have elected a new President
and for the most part have accepted his leadership. Hopefully,
Honduras is on a path now where the gains that have been
gleaned the hard way can be consolidated so that country can
take off economically, as well as every other way.
I want to, like my colleagues before me, recognize the
great work of Congressman Ben Gilman, our former chairman, who
looks down upon us every day from that portrait. He was an
outstanding chairman. I remember traveling with him to a number
of trouble spots over the course of many years; having watched
him shepherd one bill after another through in some very
difficult times.
I want to commend him for his outstanding leadership,
especially in the realm of human rights and humanitarian law.
Georgia, his wife, who is an ever present friend and advocate;
thank you for gracing us with your presence today.
Finally, I do want to raise the issue, like many of my
colleagues are concerned, of an American property issue and
appropriation issue in Honduras. The issue, many of us have
raised it.
I have sent letters over the course of many years. One of
them that I sent, of all people, was to President Zelaya on
July 17th, 2008, which was not adequately or in any way really
responded to. But it has to do with the discriminatory
treatment of the U.S.-owned Cementa America, or CEMAR, forcing
it out of the Honduran cement market and causing the indirect
ex-appropriation of CEMAR's cement plant.
The principal shareholder, Mr. Oscar Cerna, asserts--and he
has many of us on both sides of the aisle look into this; and
we joined with him because we think this is an illegality, as
well as a close unfairness--that he has been subjected to
illegal prosecution, improper confiscation of CEMAR's assets
without a warrant or court order. And I do hope that at long
last, now that the issues in Honduras appear to be on the mend,
that the State Department and all parties, especially the
Government of Honduras, will look for--speedy is not the right
word, because it has certainly been many years in the making--
but at this time forward, a very expeditious resolution of this
ex-appropriation of those properties.
And I thank you, Mr. Chairman, and yield back.
Mr. Engel. Thank you, Mr. Smith; Mr. Faleomavaega?
Mr. Faleomavaega. Thank you, Mr. Chairman; and I want to
certainly commend you for your leadership and initiative in
again holding this important hearing concerning Honduras.
And I, too, would like to echo the sentiments of our
colleagues, as well as you, Mr. Chairman, in personally
welcoming a former chairman of this important committee, my
good friend, Ben Gilman, and his better half, Mrs. Gilman, for
being with us this afternoon. Thank you so much, and we deeply
appreciate your presence.
Mr. Chairman, if I may, I would like to submit this for the
record, a copy of the letter addressed to Secretary Clinton
from Chairman John Conyers of the Judiciary Committee. I, along
with 90 other Members of Congress, submitted this letter to
Secretary Clinton concerning this U.S. citizen, Mr. Oscar
Cerna, who is an owner of a cement company, I believe, along
with 14 other companies, Mr. Secretary.
We really are very serious about the fact that our newly
elected President of Honduran really needs to look at this. The
rights of U.S. citizens and their investments that are made in
Honduras should be taken seriously; and I sincerely hope, Mr.
Secretary, that you will take that message.
Mr. Engel. Mr. Faleomavaega, without objection, so ordered.
Mr. Faleomavaega. Thank you; and I just want to say, I was
going to ask the question about the history of Mr. Zelaya. I
deeply appreciated the gentleman from Florida, our ranking
member, for his eloquent and most precise recount of the
history of what happened to this question of whether or not Mr.
Zelaya followed the spirit as well as the letter of the
Constitution of the laws of Honduras.
I will be asking some more questions concerning this,
Secretary Kelly, and one other issue that I notice you may have
not touched upon. I am sure it was probably just a little
oversight, and that is the rights and the welfare of the
indigenous people that make up Honduras.
I say this, Mr. Secretary, not just in passing in terms of
Honduras; but the absolute failure of Latin American countries
in dealing with right, political and economic, as well as the
social needs of the indigenous Indian populations in those
countries. And I will be asking you more questions concerning
that issue.
With that, Mr. Chairman, thank you for allowing me the
time; and I yield back.
Mr. Engel. Thank you very much, Mr. Faleomavaega; Mr.
Burton?
Mr. Burton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I want
to congratulate Mr. Lobo for being elected President. I do not
know if anybody is here from the Honduran Embassy, but if they
are, I would like for them, as well as our Ambassador, to take
a message back to President Lobo.
That is that you just heard unanimously that the members of
this subcommittee, and I believe most Members of Congress,
believe that the previous administration should have taken
positive action to deal with confiscated property and ex-
appropriation of property by the government or other companies
down there that were working with the Government of Honduras.
One of those, I think, that the chairman mentioned, Mr.
Cortez Byrd versus the Republic of Honduras, was a settlement
that was reached in a court. It was not a settlement. It was a
judgment reached in a court, which has never been honored.
I realize Honduras is in a very difficult situation
economically; and I recognize that President Lobo has serious
problems that he is facing. I believe he is an honorable man,
as do my colleagues, and we believe that he is going to do a
good job.
But I think one of the first things that he should do in
his administration, and I hope you will convey this, Mr.
Ambassador, as well as anyone else who might be here from the
Honduran Embassy, that I think that these issues ought to be
addressed. Obviously, they may not be able to come up with all
the money that would be required immediately. But there ought
to be some kind of a approach between the companies and the
government.
For them to continue to ignore these obligations only
causes a boil to fester. More and more Members of Congress
realize that this is something that is not going to go away.
And since they now have what the people of Honduras believe is
a truly fair and freely elected President and government that
they have great respect for--I mean, he won overwhelmingly, 56
percent to 38 percent--the people are finally believing and
feel that they have a very highly regarded government, and the
United States should feel the same way.
We are one of the major contributors to the economic
problems that Honduras faces, and we understand that. But to
leave these companies that have been mistreated hanging out to
dry, Mr. Ambassador, just ain't going to fly. Pardon my
English. And so I really hope that the message goes back loud
and clear that every member who has testified here today,
Democrat and Republican, feel extremely strongly that the
Government of Honduras needs to sit down with these people and
work out some kind of a solution to the problems.
You know, I understand the financial problems that they
face. Even the former Attorney General of Honduras has said
very clearly that CEMAR should be compensated. And the other
case we talked about, Cortez Byrd versus Honduras, that was
cited in a court of law. So both of these cases, by officials
and by courts, have said very clearly that there ought to be a
solution found, and there ought to be compensation paid.
So I would urge you, Mr. Ambassador, to convey this message
to the government. And like I said, if any other Honduran
officials are here, I hope you will convey it, as well. Because
we want this government to succeed. We want to work with the
government to make sure it succeeds. But in order for that to
happen and for us all to be on the same page, we need to
confront these issues and get them solved.
With that, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much; and I
appreciate the chairman and the ranking member for their
comments. You guys are right on point. Ben, you never get any
older, buddy. You look just as young as ever; and I think it is
because of that good looking woman you married.
Mr. Engel. Well, he is smiling, so that must mean it is
true. Thank you very much, Mr. Burton; Ms. Lee.
Ms. Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me, too,
welcome Chairman Gilman. I served on this committee with
Chairman Gilman as chair. I just want to say how much I enjoyed
serving with you, and that you were a very fair chair. It is
good to see you again and congratulations.
I want to welcome Deputy Assistant Secretary Kelly, as well
as all of our panelists who will be joining us later. I want to
draw your attention to, again, the troubling human rights
situation in Honduras.
According to the respected Committee for the Defense of
Human Rights in Honduras, at least political activists and
opponents have been murdered since the coup of June 28th of
last year which, of course, included multiple assassinations
since the inauguration of Mr. Lobo.
I have a document here that sort of details the
circumstances under which each person was killed. Also,
according to a release from, I think it is a March 8 document
the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights, and let me just
quote from that. It says,
``Observes with dismay that it appears that sons and
daughters of leaders of the resistance front are being
killed, kidnapped, attacked, and threatened as a
strategy to silence to silence the activists.''
As an example, they cite Claudia Brizuela, who is 36 years
old. She was killed in her home; daughter of a union and
community leader, who participates actively in the political
opposition movement. Two unknown individuals came to her door;
and when she opened it, she was shot and killed in front of her
children, ages two and eight.
There are many examples. According to Human Rights Watch,
these cases are not investigated and those responsible brought
to justice. It could generate really a chilling effect that
would limit the basic exercise of basic political rights in
Honduras.
Also in your testimony, I hope you talk about the Truth
Commission, and where the government is and where President
Lobo is on that, and where these charges of human rights
violations are going to be investigated within the context of
this commission.
I do not understand how such a body could carry on an
internationally respected mandated when opposition leaders and
family members continued to be targeted for harassment and
violence. So I have these documents, Mr. Chairman. I would like
to ask unanimous consent to place them in the record.
Mr. Engel. Without objection, so ordered.
Ms. Lee. Thank you very much.
Mr. Engel. Thank you, Ms. Lee; Mr. Rohrabacher?
Mr. Rohrabacher. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
I should start off with the important business, which is,
of course, welcoming Chairman Ben Gilman back, which I join
with my colleagues in offering accolades to a man who has done
so much, not only for this committee, but for our country and
for the cause of human freedom.
It was an honor serving with him; and actually it was
really a benefit to receive his leadership, and we are very
happy he has still got his finger in things here. So welcome,
Ben, and we are very, very happy to see you here. Ben, I think
you are handsome as you ever were, and there you are right
there, up there. Thank you, Ben, for all you did.
Last year, there was a crisis in Honduras. A would be
caudillo was thwarted by courageous, principled, and legal
actions taken by a broad coalition of Hondurans. Unfortunately,
our government sided with the would-be caudillo, and undercut
those who were trying to thwart this power grab.
We do not need to see this incident ever repeated again. We
do not have to dwell on it; but that is what it comes down to.
We expect the United States Government, no matter who is
President, to be siding with those who believe in the rule of
law and believe in democratic government; not on the side of
people who worship at the feet of Fidel Castro and Chavez and
all these other would-be dictators.
This chapter, however, is over. And as I recently said upon
a visit that I took to Honduras, it is time to close the book
on what happened last year. So that would mean--and we will
talk about that today or I hope we hear about this today--any
policies that were put in place as part of the mistaken stand
against those who were thwarting this power grab by would be
caudillo Zelaya, I guess his name is, any of those policies in
place should be immediately de-activated, if not totally
rescinded. So we can just leave that behind us; a sign for the
United States and Honduras to look together to the future,
rather than be caught up in anything in the past. That is what
I said when I visited down there, and that is something we need
to do.
We can leave this chapter. It would be a benefit to our
country and to the people there. One thing the Government of
Honduras can do to help shut the book and move forward is to
deal with the property claims that have been talked about on
both sides of the aisle today, which I think were very
justified, that there are claims by U.S. citizens, like Oscar
Cerna, who have claims that need to be dealt with.
So we would send the message to our Government, let us put
last year's actions behind us. The message to the current
government, President Lobo in Honduras is, let us deal with
these property issues and get them out of the way.
My colleagues expressed deep concern about this lack of
progress on these claims. And while Honduras is a recipient of
U.S. foreign aid, it has got to expect that we cannot just say,
oh, well, you are going to get foreign aid. But you are not
going to deal with legitimate claims of U.S. citizens, like
those of Oscar Cerna.
So, Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for your leadership
in this hemisphere and the activities, and also as a great
friend of freedom; and I would say one of the best chairman of
subcommittees that we have had in this Congress for the
responsibility. And actually, your activism is so appreciated,
Mr. Chairman. So thank you for calling this hearing today.
Mr. Engel. Thank you, Mr. Rohrabacher; I appreciate your
kind words. Everybody sitting out there, the truth is that Mr.
Rohrabacher and I are classmates. We came to Congress together
in 1988, so we have had a deal since then. He says nice things
about me, and I say nice things about him; but thank you, thank
you very much.
It is now my pleasure to introduce our distinguished
Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Western
Hemisphere Affairs, Craig Kelly. Craig also served as
Ambassador to Chile in 2007 before starting his current post.
That is why his sign says, Ambassador Kelly.
Ambassador Kelly, as I have told you before and as I have
mentioned, I was extremely impressed by your excellent work in
helping to guide U.S. policy toward Honduras last year; and I
have been very impressed by your excellent work generally.
It is people like you who really make us feel proud. The
work that you do at the State Department, the dedication, it
really makes us feel proud that we can work together and that
the United States has such dedicated public servants as
yourself.
As you know, we both participated in an inter-American
dialogue dinner on the Honduras crisis in the fall. And as I
told you a few days ago, I saw you put your excellent
diplomatic skills to work there, and I was very impressed and
let everybody know it. So we look forward to having you with us
today, and the floor is yours.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CRAIG A. KELLY, PRINCIPAL DEPUTY
ASSISTANT SECRETARY, BUREAU OF WESTERN HEMISPHERE AFFAIRS, U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF STATE (FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO CHILE)
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and
members of the committee. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for your
very generous words. I recall very fondly, not only that event
hosted by the Inter-American Dialogue in October, but also our
conversation at the State Department earlier this week. Thank
you very much for that. And again, I join others in welcoming
Chairman and Mrs. Gilman, as well.
I appreciate this opportunity to discuss the recent
political crisis in Honduras, the U.S. response and next steps.
I might add, Congressman Mack and others who have expressed
opinions about the events of the 28th, that in my statement I
will talk about why we attributed it a coup. But I will be
happy in questions to get more into that about, you know, why
we reached that conclusion.
Honduras has come a long way since the coup that ousted the
democratically elected government of former President Zelaya
last June. We can be proud of the role that the United States
played under the leadership of President Obama and Secretary
Clinton in helping to restore constitutional and democratic
governance in a country with which we have enjoyed strong,
historic ties.
From the beginning of the crisis, we underscored the
important principles of democracy and due process that were at
stake in the Honduran crisis. At the same time, we rolled up
our sleeves and worked with the Honduran people and the
international community to help find a way forward.
Mr. Chairman, even before June 28th, the United States was
concerned about he increasing polarization in Honduran
politics. Our Ambassador, Hugo Llorens, spared no effort in
urging all parties to resolve their conflicts through dialogue
and respect for democratic processes.
After June 28th, the United States pursued a principle
policy, consistent with our unwavering support for democratic
governance, the rule of law, and human rights, and was among
the first in the international community to condemn the coup.
We formed part of the unanimous suspension of Honduras from the
OAS for its violation of the Inter-American Democratic Charter.
I might add that not one country in the world recognized the de
facto government.
I would just like to emphasize, in light of today's
comments, that this is not about who President Zelaya was or
what he had done before June 28th, which we are very much aware
of. This is about the manner of his removal, and that is why we
reached the conclusion that we did.
Our implementation of this policy included termination of
approximately $37 million in U.S. foreign assistance, and
suspension of visas for senior de facto officials and
supporters. At the same time, our policy also involved intense
engagement with key elements in Honduran society of all sectors
to promise dialogue and peaceful resolution.
Discussions facilitated by Costa Rican President Arias
during the summer led first to the San Jose Accord, and then to
a national dialogue inside Honduras, which the OAS facilitated.
This so-called Guaymuras dialogue gave the Hondurans more
ownership of the problem, which was a good thing, and produced
progress on several issues, until the talks reached an impasse
in October.
At that point, Secretary Clinton decided to send a team to
help finalize the Tegucigalpa-San Jose Accord, leading to an
agreement on October 30th. Once the Accord was signed, we
determined that the November 29 elections, in preparation long
before the coup, were a vital part of a solution in Honduras.
In short, the Tegucigalpa-San Jose Accord and the November
29 elections, which were considered free and fair by local and
international observers, together formed the basis for the
return of Honduras to constitutional and democratic order.
Since assuming office on January 27, President Lobo has
taken important additional steps to bring about national
reconciliation: Installing a national unity government; working
to establish a Truth Commission; replacing senior military
leadership that had been involved in the coup; and pledging to
investigate fully all alleged human rights violations.
Now that democratic governance has been restored in
Honduras, the United States is resuming assistance that will
promote economic and social development, strengthen democratic
institutions and respect for human rights, and enhance
Honduras' capacity to combat crime and drug trafficking.
Re-engagement with the Honduran military will be conducted
in a deliberate and focused manner that will advance our common
aim of developing a professional and non-political military.
We are not the only ones who believe it is time to move
forward in Honduras. The International Monetary Fund, the World
Bank, and the Inter-American Development Bank have re-engaged
with Honduras; and many, many countries have sent back
ambassadors to resume productive ties.
Secretary Clinton, stopping in Guatemala 2 weeks ago,
welcomed the leadership of the Central American Presidents in
promoting the re-incorporation of Honduras in regional bodies,
including the Organization of American States.
Mr. Chairman, we will continue to support the new Honduran
Government as it fulfills its commitment to transparent,
inclusive, and accountable institutions. The United States has
deep and abiding interest in Honduras, and will continue to
work closely with the government and people there, as they
strive to build a better future.
As our hemisphere thrives increasingly on integration on
integration based on democratic principles and open economies,
having Honduras regain its seat at the table is in the interest
of all of us.
In closing, I might add, Mr. Chairman, that in reference to
that session we had on October 21st here in the Congress, that
as you gathered people from all sides of the debate--from the
United States, from Honduras, and from the region--and we had a
very spirited discussion about Honduras, I remember thinking as
I left the room, what a great country we are in, that we can
have this debate in a civil and spirited fashion, looking for a
way forward.
And if I heard correctly the comments that you all made
today, while there are differences over what happened leading
up to and during the night of June 28th, there is a great sense
that it is time to move forward and that we have a lot at stake
in helping Honduras as it addresses several of the challenges,
but also opportunities in the future. With that, I welcome
questions.
There are several questions that you raise that I will be
happy to address. I could start in with that, or I can wait for
follow-up questions from you, Mr. Chairman, as you wish.
[The prepared statement of Ambassador Kelly
follows:]Craig Kelly
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Engel. Well, thank you, Secretary Kelly. I will ask a
few; and then I will have Mr. Mack and then the rest of us will
ask a few.
I just want to first state what I actually told you in your
office the other day; that I think that the State Department's
handling of what happened in Honduras was really excellent. I
think you struck the right balance. I think you took a position
in the middle of the road; and I think it helped move things
along in Honduras.
Mr. Mack and I may disagree over whether it is called a
coup or not, but we do not disagree over the fact that former
President Zelaya tried to usurp power, and tried to violate his
country's Constitution.
The problem that I have with it is the way it was done; you
know, whisking him in his pajamas at 2 o'clock in the morning
under gun point out of the country--I think that that strikes a
very bad memory for too many people in that region of the world
who do remember coups like that. It was not a military coup in
the purest sense of the word, because the military did not take
over, but the removal was done that way.
But as I said in my opening statement, I think we need to
look forward. I was very happy--even though I was not pleased
with the way Zelaya was removed--I was very happy to support
elections in that country. And I was very happy, as you know,
to issue a statement saying that if there are international
observers, and the elections are held freely and fairly, then
we and the international community need to recognize those
elections.
So Mr. Mack and I really do not disagree on where we, I
think, go from here; and really on what should have happened in
Honduras. So I just wanted to state that. I think that
elections were our way out, and now we have to look.
As you can tell, practically everybody who spoke on both
sides of the aisle mentioned those cases of American citizens
who have claims against the Government of Honduras. I am
wondering if you can comment on it.
You know, one of the persons, Mr. Cerna from CEMAR, his
company, he is actually in the room here today; and I know he
has obviously an interest in it. But above and beyond his
interest, you know, we all have an interest. Because if
Americans are treated that way, you know, it does not really
bode well, as I said, for investment in the country.
But it does not make us want to help. You know, if our
people are treated so poorly with such disrespect and disregard
then, you know, you just kind of feel, well, why are we
knocking ourselves out to help Honduras, when Hondurans do not
treat Americans fairly?
So I wish you can comment on some of those; and what are we
doing, what will we do, what can we do, to make these people
whole?
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Having had, as
you noted, the privilege of being U.S. Ambassador in Chile, I
can state very directly that one of the key elements of Chile's
success has been the environment it created for foreign
investors--the transparency, the rule of law, the sense of
consistency and so forth that investors look for when they
invest in foreign countries. And this is something that we talk
to many countries about in the region, the need for creating an
investment climate that is good for everybody concerned.
I had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Cerna before the opening
of the hearing, and I said I would be delighted to have him
come by the office so we can talk specifically about his case.
I know we have had a lot of contact with him through the years,
and we have a strong commitment to working with him to see, you
know, what is the best way forward.
I have talked repeatedly with Ambassador Llorens about
this, with whom Mr. Cerna has met. We agree completely that it
is essential to pursue these cases in a way that seeks
transparency and protects interests of investors.
We have communicated to Mr. Cerna, and I will look forward
to a direct conversation soon, that we believe the best channel
right now for his case is the mechanism provided in the
bilateral investment treaty. I understand he has concerns about
that mechanism, and I will be delighted to talk to him directly
about those concerns.
But we happen to think that that offers the best way
forward. That has been used many, many times in investment
disputes around the world, and has been used successfully. So
that is the path that we encourage. I will be, as I said, happy
to talk with him further about that.
The other cases, as well, the Embassy has stayed in very
close touch with Mr. Kafati, and also the case of Cortez Byrd.
The Embassy has followed those very closely, and we will
continue to do so. We completely agree with all of you on the
principle of creating an investment climate that is favorable.
Mr. Engel. Well, let me thank you. But let me just say that
we have done some looking into the Bilateral Investment Treaty
(BIT). And the problem, as I see it, the international
arbitration under the BIT is very expensive and time consuming.
You know, a large multi-national corporation can certainly set
aside the millions of dollars it needs to keep challenging
this, with multiple years, you know, to pursue these cases in
an arbitral panel.
A small investor does not have the time or resources to
follow such a course. And that is a very real problem; not only
for Mr. Cerna, and it is a problem for him, but others, as
well.
So I would hope that the State Department, you know, would
consider or change its position, and consider the difficulty
that a small investor has to move forward under the BIT.
Considering that, I think that the U.S. Embassy and the
State Department should make extra effort to advocate on behalf
of such an investor. Because I think the BIT does not
adequately address the needs. So I believe changes are needed,
and I hope that you will come to the conclusion, as well.
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I certainly will
take all that on board. Our embassy has spoken to the
government, and the previous government, as well, already with
President Lobo and his administration about these cases. And I
assure you, when I go back, I will relay to Ambassador Llorens
our conversation and the committee's concern.
Mr. Engel. Thank you; let me ask you one other question,
and then I will turn it over Mr. Mack. As I mentioned in my
opening statement, there have been a number of recent murders
of Hondurans who were active in the resistance to what was
happening.
Three journalists were murdered this month alone. I
mentioned Nahun Palacios. He was a supporter. He expressed his
rejection of the removal of President Zelaya. He was gunned
down. I do not really think it is important as to what his
beliefs were. I think we need to have the rule of law.
And so what I wanted to ask you is, is the Lobo
administration doing enough to respond to recent politically
motivated violence? The murder of these three journalists, what
does it say about freedom of expression in Honduras; and what
is the Obama administration doing to bring attention to these
human rights problems?
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you. The terms bring attention. I
think are very important. You may have seen yesterday our
representative in the Organization of American States referred
to the latest killing in Honduras, and urged the authorities to
investigate to help to create the climate which, you know, does
not condone this sort of activity.
I agree with you completely that it does not matter what
people's beliefs are. If they are being targeted because of
their beliefs, it is unacceptable.
We believe that President Lobo is very committed to making
headway on human rights. It is a country which has a history of
violence, one of the highest murder rates in the world,
unfortunately. But when people are targeted for their beliefs,
this is a particularly serious sort of abuse, and one that we
are very serious about.
In our human rights report which was just issued a few days
ago, which of course covers last year, it relates several
incidents of a similar nature that we are concerned about.
President Lobo has appointed a sort of minister level advisor
named Miguel Bonilla, whose full-time job will be to address
human rights issues. I think that high profile is welcome.
After the very first of these cases since January 27,
Ambassador Llorens and his embassy issued a statement calling
for prompt and thorough investigation of these cases.
So this is something that is very much at the top of our
agenda, Mr. Chairman, and I assure you that it will continue to
be so.
Mr. Engel. Thank you, and I want to say that I think
everyone at this table, on both sides of the aisle, wish Mr.
Lobo the best. I think that the steps he has initially taken,
in terms of reaching across to all political persuasions in
trying to have a coalition--I think the way he handled the
Zelaya incident, being holed up in the Brazilian Embassy, was
very positive.
I think all those things are very positive; and I would
hope that in the countries that are still skittish about
recognizing him and helping him, including the OAS, would
understand that, you know, help is in the best interests of the
people of Honduras; Mr. Mack?
Okay, Mr. Smith, Mr. Mack is going to pass for now; Mr.
Smith?
Mr. Smith. Thank you; I thank my ranking member. There are
a number of state legislators in my office that have been there
since 3:30. So I thank him for his courtesy; and I will just
bring it down to one question, although I have several.
Like my colleagues, we are all very, very supportive of Mr.
Lobo. We hope that the President can really being about true,
lasting and positive change; and he is showing every indication
that he is going to do it. But I would like to ask again,
because this is a festering sore, on these property seizures
that occurred.
Are you aware, and if not, could you get back to us on
this, whether or not any of the new government officials,
senior officials, senior military officials, include anyone who
may have been involved in the abuse of Mr. Cerna and his
rights; and can you tell us what the State Department has done
to assist him in securing his rights in Honduras?
You know, the arbitration is out there. I know you are
exhausting all your remedies. I have read all the letters that
have been sent back. But at some point, you know, when you are
looking at a process that will go on in perpetuity; that is
what his belief is, and that I think it is what is the belief
of many members of this committee.
It seems that this could be a time when we say, let us
resolve this. I had a case out of Saudi Arabia once that went
on forever. It was in arbitration. We talked to the Ambassador
here in Washington. I talked to people in Saudi Arabia and
ongoing, our Ambassador; and it never went anywhere, and I
ended up losing, you know, a New Jersey company. So arbitration
sounds good; but in practice, it is usually a dead end.
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you, Congressman; on the factual
question, we will be happy to get back to you on the fact of
whether there are current members of the government who have
had involvement in the case.
[The information referred to follows:]
Written Response Received from the Honorable Craig A. Kelly to Question
Asked During the Hearing by the Honorable Christopher H. Smith
An external tax audit, commissioned by the Honduran tax authority,
Direccion Ejecutiva de Ingresos (DEI), and carried out in 2004 by Palao
William y Asociados, determined that CEMAR had underpaid on its taxes.
Based on the audit, DEI found CEMAR liable for non-payment of taxes.
One of the partners at Palao William was William Chong Wong, who was
also a Sub-Secretary in the Ministry of Finance from 2002-2004 and
Minister of Finance from 2004-2006. DEI is part of the Ministry of
Finance. Chong Wong is currently Minister of Finance. We are not aware
of any other current government officials or senior members of the
military who were involved in this case.
Ambassador Kelly. And on the second one, as I indicated, as
I said, we will look forward to speaking soon to Mr. Cerna, and
to go over the pros and cons of also other methods of going
through the Department of Justice route and all that. I know
that has been in the correspondence, as well. So I do not need
to belabor it here. But we will be very happy to discuss that
directly with him, and I understand that time and money are a
concern.
[The information referred to follows:]
Written Response Received from the Honorable Craig A. Kelly to Question
Asked During the Hearing by the Honorable Christopher H. Smith
While the United States government is not in a position to take
sides on the merits of Mr. Cerna's investment claim against the
Government of Honduras, the State Department has been very active over
the last several years in trying to help him resolve it. The U.S.
Ambassador to Honduras, Hugo Llorens, has personally raised this issue
at the highest level of government, including with President of
Honduras Porfirio Lobo and Minister of Industry and Commerce Oscar
Escalante in February of 2010, as well as with former President of
Honduras Ricardo Maduro in March of 2010. Previous U.S. Ambassadors to
Honduras Larry Palmer and Charles Ford also raised the case at the
highest levels of the Honduran government on several occasions. We will
continue to do everything we can to encourage the prompt resolution of
this dispute. At the same time, we have on several occasions encouraged
Mr. Cerna to take steps to exercise all available rights he may have in
the Honduran courts or under the U.S.-Honduras Bilateral Investment
Treaty.
Mr. Sires [presiding]. Welcome Ambassador, and I will
recognize myself, since I was next.
The situation in Honduras, can you tell me how fragile is
it right now? Is it fragile; is it solid? How do you see it?
Because I still see that there were three deaths last month. So
how fragile is the democratic situation in Honduras?
Ambassador Kelly. I believe that there is a sense in the
country that the country is moving forward. There is strong
support for President Lobo, and there is strong support for the
type of government he has set up, which includes three of the
four people he ran against in the election.
So this very sincere effort to create a government of
national unity and reconciliation has been welcomed. Yet, it is
a society which still has a certain level of polarization; and
I think that is at the root of some of the violence. So that
has to be a concern.
I do think that the best way for us to address that is to
stand with him, not just the United States--but other countries
in the region--which is why it was very impressive to hear. Two
weeks ago, I was with the Secretary in Guatemala, when the
Presidents in the room spoke up of the need for all of them in
the region to stand with the current Honduran Government and
with the Honduran people as they address these challenges.
I think that the country has gone through a traumatic
political experience. It lasted 7 months, and that has left
some wounds. So, yes, there are concerns out there. There are
sensitivities and a certain polarization, and I think the best
thing we can do is to stand with them.
That is why we welcomed the re-integration that is
occurring with the international financial institutions, and
with the many, many countries around the world that have sent
ambassadors back. We think this is very important, and we think
that it is growing, and that is a trend that will continue.
Mr. Sires. Mr. Ambassador, one of the things that led to
the Zelaya removal was the influence of Chavez, supposedly. We
had, in Spain, the judge's stated decision that Chavez
supposedly was involved with the terrorists, the FARC.
I was just wondering if the State Department has changed
its approach to Honduras, in terms of calling a coup; realizing
that Chavez is interfering in Colombia. He is interfering in
Honduras. He is interfering in all the other countries in South
America. Has the administration re-thought the approach?
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As I indicated
in my opening statement, our position on what happened on June
28th had nothing to do with the ideas that Mr. Zelaya
represented in the run-up to the 28th. It had everything to do
with how his removal took place, and the fact that there was no
due process.
You know, the Honduran Constitution has three different
Articles that guarantee right of self-defense, due process, and
so forth. And what happened during the night of the 28th did
not allow for any of those steps.
So while we have studied all of the arguments in favor of
the removal, we found that none of them allowed for due
process. And due process being such a fundamental element of
democracy, that is why we called what happened a coup. But this
had nothing to do with the issues you are citing: The influence
of Chavez in the region and so forth.
I would note in Honduras, that is a complicated issue, as
well. I mean, the entry of Honduras into ALBA, the sort of
Chavez affiliated alliance in the region, was actually
supported by Mr. Micheletti when he was head of the Congress.
So, you know, that part has a complicated history in Honduras,
which is why we focused entirely on the process and what took
place in the run-up to the 28th.
As for, you know, Mr. Chavez's influence in the region, we
have a vision about how we think the majority of countries in
the region feel they can best move ahead to secure a more
inclusive prosperity and greater and stronger democracy for
their citizens, and we have a positive message to work with the
majority of countries that share that vision.
We are convinced that it is the overwhelming majority of
people in the region who believe in strong democratic
institutions and open economies that want to integrate with the
rest of the world and underscore human rights and programs that
help people achieve greater social cohesion and greater social
mobility.
You know, we sometimes cite the example of Chile, which
between 1990 and 2006 lowered its poverty rate from 40 percent
to 14 percent. It did so with strong democratic institutions,
negotiating free trade agreements with the whole world, but
also implementing social safety net programs to give people a
chance at social mobility. And I think this is the vision that
most people in the region embrace.
Mr. Sires. Mr. Ambassador, how stern has been your comments
to the Honduras Government in terms of confiscating American
properties?
I mean, have you pointed out that even in some countries,
50 years later, it is still an issue when they confiscate
American properties? I mean, we really frown upon the fact that
our business people go and invest, go and help those countries.
And yet, it seems like in a blink of an eye, they just
confiscate the properties.
So, I mean, for us, it is very difficult to accept that and
provide assistance and all the other things that we provide to
those countries. So how stern have you been with the
government?
Ambassador Kelly. Well, as I mentioned, Ambassador Llorens
has already raised this issue with President Lobo, indicating
that the creation of this climate of protection of investors is
very important. We obviously have to look at each case
individually.
You know, whether a particular problem that a company has--
is it expropriation; is it a confiscation; you know, what kind
of a dispute is it? That, again, is why we tend to favor the
mechanisms that are provided under the bilateral investment
treaties, because we do think they are the clearest way
forward; again, fully understanding the concern that has been
expressed by some members and by Mr. Cerna and others about the
cost and so forth involved in that. But when we are looking at
what else is available to address those, we still find that
that is the best path.
Mr. Sires. Thank you very much. I would like to recognize
Congressman Mack from Florida.
Mr. Mack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Well, I guess we need to
talk a little bit more about this. Because it is an offense to
me and to a lot of people in some way the re-writing of history
in Honduras.
It was not until the administration called it a coup were
there concerns with the democracy in Honduras. And it was
precisely the actions of the United States by the Obama
administration that created the conditions to create the
crisis.
And what do I mean by that? Up until the administration
called it a coup, all of the different government institutions
were working as they were supposed to. You have the Attorney
General. You have the Congress. You have the Supreme Court; all
acting within the Constitution and the rule of law.
And so to now say that we are happy that we helped restore
democracy, it is a bit offensive. Because democracy was not in
question until the administration labeled it a coup. And
frankly, I think once that happened, it took a lot of work to
try to find a way to save face.
So what we saw down the road and what we still continue to
see today is an attempt by, I believe, the administration to
try to save face on the debacle it created by calling it a
coup.
And what do I mean by that? Well, now we are hearing about
all of the restoring of aid and other things; that it is going
to be incremental. That somehow Honduras and the government has
to do something to earn back the right to get some of this
back; when in fact, they did everything as to their
Constitution and the rule of law.
I believe yourself and the witness last week, the Under
Secretary talked about due process. Well, Zelaya was free to
come back to Honduras and face charges. Instead, he played a
game, trying to insight violence at the border and other
things.
But he was more than welcome to come back to Honduras and
face the charges that were brought against him; and he chose
not to. Instead, he tried to do an international media game to
try to get support to get back in power.
Throughout your testimony, both orally and what you have
written and submitted to the committee, we continue to talk
about or you continue to talk about, and the administration
continues to talk about a coup; and I am going to give you an
opportunity to answer this.
So I would like to know, how do you define a coup? That is
one. Then I would like to know, when are we going to restore
aid, to the full extent, and not continue this little game of,
well, they have not done enough to make us look like we have
saved face, yet.
Then does that also include restoring visas? Because
frankly, I think President Micheletti and others, it might be a
good idea for them to come to the United States and share with
us what happened. Since it appears that some are trying to re-
write history, maybe it would be good that they should be able
to travel to the United States.
So those are the three questions. How do you define a coup;
when are we going restore aid; and does that include the visas,
as well?
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you, Congressman. With respect to
the coup, you cited the events that occurred after the 28th.
And I think it is certainly true that what happened in Honduras
was not your sort of classic military coup, where the military
took over the government. I think everybody recognizes that.
And just as I said that the determination in our decision
about the nature of the events of the 28th was not determined
by President Zelaya's policies before the 28th; nor was it
determined by the way Mr. Micheletti conducted himself after
the 28th, it really focused on the manner of the removal of the
elected President of Honduras. This has nothing to do with the
ideology of either person involved.
I made six trips to Honduras during this crisis. I met for
hours with both President Zelaya, Mr. Micheletti, and then
later with President Lobo, and with many, many representatives
in Honduran society. Our aim was to help work with the country,
with the precepts that were negotiated in the San Jose Accord
and in the Tegucigalpa-San Jose Accord, which both sides agreed
to, that also referred to restoration.
The fact is, many people who supported Mr. Micheletti
acknowledged privately that what happened on the night of the
28th was a mistake; that this was not the way they should have
done this.
What is difficult in Honduras is that the Honduran
Constitution lays out no specific path for an impeachment
procedure. They used to have one. It was taken. It was removed
from their Constitution. It is, I suspect, something that the
Truth Commission may take up. It is up to them. But I suspect
they will look at this; that, you know, why was there no
mechanism to address this crisis.
In a sense, they were sort of playing it by ear. Because
there was no set procedure in the Honduran Constitution.
Mr. Mack. Can I suggest that instead of playing it by ear,
maybe they were acting in a way that they thought was
constitutional, the rule of law, and that would ensure that
there was not violence.
I mean, you have been there. If you talk to those in the
military; both the United States military and the Honduran
military, they will tell you that there was great concern about
the actions of Zelaya and what to do. And it was Zelaya's
friend in the military that made the decision to try to make
sure that there was not going to be any violence.
You know, it is one thing for us now to say that, well, we
did not like the way it happened. Well, then we should have
addressed that; but not to come out, call it a coup, take aid
away, and create this issue. It had a severe impact on the
Honduran people, and is what created the crisis in the first
place.
If we had not, the elections would have happened, just as
they did. Basically, I think what happened is, you had to have
a negotiation, again, to make it look like we did something.
And now you want to re-write history and say that we have
helped restore democracy; when, in fact, our actions were
irresponsible.
Ambassador Kelly. Again, I might add that both parties, as
we approached the Tegucigalpa-San Jose Accord, did talk about
restoration. I mean, there was acknowledgement that something
had gone wrong and something needed to be fixed, even on the
part of those who supported the de factos. But we created that.
Well, I think that if we had not called the events of the
28th a coup, we likely would have been the only country in the
world that did not. I think it is important to keep in mind
that not one country in the world recognized the Micheletti
government.
Now I want to add at the same time that one reason I think
that we were recognized as an honest broker in this dispute is
that we did not question the motives of people on either side.
Our view was, there has been an interruption. Even according to
the Honduran Constitution, there has been an interruption in
democratic governance. We want to help work with the country to
find a way forward.
But we also felt it was important to declare what we saw,
which was that a democratically elected President was removed
without due process.
Mr. Sires. Mr. Ambassador, I have to cut you off, because I
have some of the other members, and Congressman Mack, I am
sorry; Congressman Faleomavaega?
Mr. Faleomavaega. Thank you, Mr. Chairman; and thank you,
again, Secretary Kelly, for being here this afternoon.
Before proceeding, I would like to submit this to you; a
copy of the letter that was written by Chairman Conyers of the
Judiciary Committee 2 months ago, reminding again Secretary
Clinton that 1 year ago, some 90 Members of Congress submitted
this letter on behalf of Mr. Cerna, that we have all discussed
earlier today; and still, there has been no acknowledgment from
the State Department of this letter. I would like to have staff
give this to you personally, to give to Secretary Clinton's
staff person, to find out why there has not even been any
acknowledgment of this.
But I think all my colleagues have already given you the
picture in terms of why the rights of U.S. citizens under the
U.S. Honduras bilateral investment treaty has not been honored.
And I would think that U.S. investors who invest in Honduras,
they should be honored; and certainly, the rule of law, we
hope, is being followed truthfully. Go ahead and give that to
him.
But Mr. Secretary, I was listening with interest to my good
friend from Florida's line of questions, which I think has
very, very far reaching implications. The reason for my saying
this is, when we talk about coups, things automatically come
up.
For example, we have a Federal law in place. Whenever there
is a military coup, automatically we put sanctions. The
Congress puts sanctions or the President puts sanctions on that
country that committed a military coup. The question that comes
to mind, and as stated earlier by the chairman, is the manner
in which President Zelaya was removed.
Now correct me if I am right in recalling what happened.
Basically, the military physically went to the President's
residence at gun point; took President Zelaya and members of
his family physically, put them in the airplane and took them
to Costa Rica with the mandate never to come back to Honduras.
And I think this is where we are getting a little fuzzy
here as to exactly what is our position. Because I can tell
you, we also had a military coup in Pakistan by a General by
the name of Musharraf. And because of our national security
interests, we waived that coup against Musharraf for some 8
years and paid them billions of dollars; and where did we end
up with that, as a result of that coup?
We also had another example of Fuji. There were four
military coups and one civilian coup, all within 20 years that
took place. Here, again, we put sanctions on Fuji. We put
sanctions on Thailand when there was a coup that was committed
there, with no real reason at least I could feel justified the
way that was implemented.
So there is a serious question in there and I was
wondering, did the military act according to authority, or did
the General just act on his own to physically get rid of Zelaya
at that point in time?
Ambassador Kelly. The question of who gave the order to the
military is, I think, one of the issues that the Truth
Commission will actually investigate. Because it is not
entirely clear how they acted.
Mr. Faleomavaega. I am sorry; my time is up. But let us
wait for the Truth Commission on that, then. I think maybe that
will explain it better.
I have another serious question I wanted to share with you.
I am told that the population of Honduras is about 7.8 million.
Out of that population, some 546,000 are indigenous Indians or
Amerindians. I want to know what educational, what social, what
economic assistance our Government gives specifically to the
needs of indigenous Indians.
You know, we have some 565 tribes in our own country. Five
million indigenous Native Americans live in our country. And I
want to know if the Honduran Government, if the State
Department is doing anything seriously to meet the economic and
social needs of the 546,000 indigenous Indians that we have
living in Honduras; and are they given the same civil rights,
economic opportunities as others?
I believe in the population breakdown I have here, there
are some 7 million who are mixed European/Amerindians. Is that
the new term they use now for mixed Indians? I know there is a
subtly going on in Latin America that some people do not even
want to classify themselves as having indigenous Indian blood.
Evo Morales is the first indigenous Indian elected in
Bolivia. Mr. Alejandra Toledo is the first Inca individual
indigenous Indian elected in Peru. There are a lot of issues
pertaining to this. So I would gather there are some 200-300
million Indians; and I am very, very serious in wanting to ask
you, Mr. Secretary. I would like to know exactly what our
country is doing to give assistance to the indigenous
populations of this country.
I know my time is up, Mr. Chairman; thank you and I yield
back.
Ambassador Kelly. Congressman, I would be happy to give you
a detailed follow-up in writing. But let me just say very
briefly that this is one of our major priorities in the region.
Actually, the Western Hemisphere is far more ethnically diverse
than people realize. And we have a lot of programs, both in our
public diplomacy and in our economic assistance, including in
our initiative called, Pathways to Prosperity in the Americas,
which is an effort to create greater social mobility through
the countries with which we have free trade agreements in the
region.
All these things have as one of their key focuses
populations which have marginalized from the economic
integration, which is going on in the region. I would be
delighted to give you more detailed information. But it is a
very important priority of ours.
[The information referred to follows:]
Written Response Received from the Honorable Craig A. Kelly to Question
Asked During the Hearing by the Honorable Eni F.H. Faleomavaega
Consistent with its desire to promote inclusive economic
development that meets the needs of traditionally marginalized ethnic
groups, the United States has targeted some of its assistance to
Honduras to benefit the country's indigenous people. Over the past
several years, the United States Embassy in Tegucigalpa has worked
closely with the indigenous communities on several projects that
respond to their needs. Ongoing projects and the amount of funding for
each are described below:
1) Currently, our USAID mission in Tegucigalpa has provided
aid in the form of decentralized technical assistance and
teacher training, standards, curriculum calendars and monthly
standardized formative tests for all Honduran children in
primary school, including indigenous and Garifuna (Afro-
Hondurans). Indigenous and Garifuna youth and adults also
benefit from the USAID supported EDUCATODOS program. The
EDUCATODOS program provides an alternative education system for
out-of-school youth and adults, who number 7,387 indigenous
participants in 640 centers located in ten of Honduras'
eighteen departments. ($387,117)
2) Twenty-one Garifuna and indigenous participants were
approved to travel to the United States for training in 2009,
under USAID's Cooperative Association of States for
Scholarships (CASS) Program. An additional thirty Garifuna and
indigenous participants have been selected for training in
2010. These participants are expected to travel to the United
States for training later in 2010. ($1,303,000)
3) Additionally, the MIRA project in coordination with the
USFS has established an alliance with the NGO Green Wood to
improve the household incomes of approximately 100 Pech
families (some 800 people) by teaching them how to utilize
their natural resources more efficiently, linking them to
markets, and helping to implement sustainable forest management
plans. These communities are located in the municipalities of
San Esteban, Olancho and Bonito Oriental, Colon. ($60,000)
4) USAID's Rural Enterprise Development Project has assisted
approximately 1,150 indigenous people per year in strengthening
and diversifying their agricultural production. This
agricultural diversification program focuses on the production
of high-value crops and value-added products for export and
regional markets. ($1,250,000)
5) USAID's health program provides assistance to the
Government of Honduras at the central, departmental, and local
levels to improve family planning and maternal and child
services in rural areas of Honduras where most indigenous
communities are located (Intibuca, Copan, La Paz, and Lempira).
Through the USAID-supported decentralization of health
services, about 20,000 indigenous people (Lencas and Chortis)
have access to a defined basic package of services. ($176,000)
6) Through the USAID Title II Food for Peace program, over
120,000 indigenous people received $1.07 million in food
commodities to address the multiple causes and effects of food
insecurity by focusing on maternal and child health,
agricultural productivity, and local capacities development and
strengthening.
Mr. Faleomavaega. If I could have just 5 seconds, Mr.
Chairman. I just wanted to note an interesting fact. The
population of the Hispanic population here in America--out of
some 310 million, it is 45.5 million Hispanics. And out of
that, 58 percent are Mexican Americans.
Now it seems to be the trend that everybody who is Mexican
America can claim their ancestry to some Aztec prince or
princess or some tribe in Mexico with tremendous pride as a
descendent of many of the tribes that come out of Mexico. I
think it is something that we ought to take notice for. Thank
you, Mr. Chairman; thank you.
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Congressman. I recognize Congressman
Rohrabacher.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Just
right off the bat, just to make sure that you understand the
importance of the three journalists who were murdered, that is
not something that is just on their side of the aisle.
We are very concerned about any journalists or human rights
crimes such as that. If there is evidence somebody in the
government was responsible, we do know that Honduras has a very
high murder rate; and that in other countries where you have
high murder rates and high crime, that sometimes journalists
are murdered by other than the government.
But if there is any indication that the government was
involved in this, we would like you to let us know immediately;
notify the embassy. Because that, of course, is something that
we cannot in any way compromise that standard. That is
unacceptable, and we will follow through on that to make sure
that we get information about that.
By the way, in terms of the debate back and forth about the
removal of this would-be caudillo, let us just note that due
process was followed. The military did not just proceed with
guns. They had an order from the Supreme Court of that country,
which was a legal order saying that the President was violating
the law in a power grab that would have basically abrogated
their Constitution.
That seems to me to be fine due process. And to call that a
coup, like in other areas, is something that I believe, and I
agree with Mr. Mack, brought on this whole crisis.
So with that said, we need to shut the book and move
forward. Let me ask you this. Is Honduras right now permitted
to participate in the Organization of American States meetings?
Ambassador Kelly. They are not now. The re-entry into the
Organization of American States requires a two-thirds vote of
its members.
Mr. Rohrabacher. All right.
Ambassador Kelly. We strongly support their re-entry; and
as I noted, at the meeting with Secretary Clinton in Guatemala
with the Central American Presidents, she noted with great
satisfaction that the Presidents spoke up in favor of this.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay, I have only got a couple of minutes,
sir. So your answer is no, they are not participating; but yes,
we are backing their request to continue to participate. What
are we doing to ensure that, besides just mouthing off a couple
of words? Are we suggesting the United States might not sit in
on meetings, if Honduras' democracy is not able to sit in?
Ambassador Kelly. Well, Congressman, actually, we see a
trend of countries that are moving toward normalizing their
relations with Honduras; and in our view, that is going to lead
us to the result we want to see. We are talking with all the
countries in the region with that end in mind.
Mr. Rohrabacher. I would suggest that our commitment to
democracy in the Organization of American States, at a time
when you have countries like Cuba and other dictatorships
permitted to participate, we should stand firm and make sure
there is a penalty to pay for organizations that discriminate
against democratic governments; while permitting dictatorships
like Cuba to be involved.
In terms of these still pending cases, like we have heard
about today with Oscar Cerna, let me just note that we need to
close the book on what happened last year. We need to close the
book on these cases. And the government in Honduras needs to
understand that, again, there is a penalty to pay if they are
making the wrong decision.
Just for the record, I have a piece of legislation that we
will be submitting for myself, asking for us to make sure that
we, you know, leave the past behind and get on with the good
relationship with Honduras. Mr. Mack, Mr. Burton, and Ileana
Ros-Lehtinen are all co-sponsors of the bill.
But in the bill, it does suggest that those property claims
be acted on. And if not, there will be another piece of
legislation that cuts off our aid to Honduras 1 year from now,
if it is not acted upon; and it is not acceptable simply to
say, well, this guy has got to go through and all these other
people who have been waiting--not just this one--but they have
to go through some bureaucratic process that they have already
been through.
These are not claims that were made last year. These are
claims have been going on and on and on. They have already been
through the process; and just us pointing them, they will now
go through the process some more, this is actually draining the
wealth and rights of these people. Some of them are U.S.
citizens.
So let us get those property claims dealt with; and as I
submit this, getting back to normal with the Honduras bill.
Next year, there will be another bill that indicates that there
will be a penalty to pay, unless we see that case and other
cases like it dealt with by the Honduran Government.
And if you would indulge me just one more question, Mr.
Chairman, after this whole fiasco last year, there was a policy
by our Government of revoking the visas of those people who
were engaged in this conflict, okay--this controversy that was
going on. Well, we want to put the controversy behind us and
move forward.
Are those government officials, whose passports were
revoked--are they going to either be issued new passports or
have those passports renewed, or visas I should say? What is
our policy on that? Have we now been able to shut that book and
move forward; or are we so stuck in trying to punish these guys
for something that we now consider to be old news?
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you, Congressman; a couple of good
things, on the property cases--absolutely, I have heard this
message loud and clear today. It is one we do take seriously.
But hearing again from you is very helpful, and we will take
that as we move forward; thank you.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Okay.
Ambassador Kelly. On Cuba and the OAS, Cuba is not in the
OAS. The suspension on Cuba was lifted. But what was said in
Honduras actually in early June, largely at our working, was
that this had to be accordance with the principles, purposes,
and procedures of the OAS, including human rights and
democracy.
Mr. Rohrabacher. Good; thank you.
Ambassador Kelly. And on your final point about visas,
visas were never meant to punish people. Visas were a policy
tool to make a point about the effort to work toward a
restoration of constitutional and democratic order. We are
looking at those, and we will be moving on those.
But we will look at them in terms of, you know, they are
not one group. They are individual human beings we will be
looking at.
Mr. Rohrabacher. But the constitutional government has been
restored; and so there is no excuse any more to keep that issue
alive. So I would hope that that is acted upon quickly, because
it is a stumbling block. These people are influential people in
Honduras. Why are we kicking them around, when we have already
said that that is old news and we want to move beyond it? Thank
you very much.
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you.
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Congressman. I just have one short
question. How concerned was the administration that although
Honduras had said that they were going to hold elections in
November, that they were not going to hold elections in
November, after they removed Zelaya.
Ambassador Kelly. I am sorry. I did not quite catch that.
Mr. Sires. During the events, I always understood that
Honduras always had the intention of having an election in
November.
Ambassador Kelly. Yes.
Mr. Sires. How concerned was the administration that
Honduras was not going to keep their word?
Ambassador Kelly. The de facto government said right from
the beginning that they intended to hold elections.
Mr. Sires. Right.
Ambassador Kelly. As I mentioned in my statement, we
believe that the combination of a movement toward some sort of
an internal agreement and the elections was the basis for the
way forward.
Mr. Sires. So you never had any doubt that they were going
to hold elections in November?
Ambassador Kelly. I am not aware of any threat on the part
of the authorities after June 28th to say that elections would
not be held. I could be mistaken on the facts.
But we assumed all along; I know there were statements on
the part of Mr. Micheletti, that elections would be held. Our
position, as you know, is that the elections were planned. The
candidates were chosen in primaries 1 year before the election,
long before June 28th, and so we supported that process.
Mr. Sires. Well, Mr. Ambassador, I want to thank you for
coming. I am sure the chairman, had he been here, would thank
you for coming and answering your questions. I appreciated
them; thank you very much.
Ambassador Kelly. Thank you very much.
Mr. Sires. We will now hear from our second panel. Thank
you for your patience. I am now pleased to introduce our
distinguished private witnesses.
Cris Arcos is a former U.S. Ambassador to Honduras. He also
served as Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security for
International Affairs during the George W. Bush administration;
Mr. Arcos, welcome.
Vicki Gass is a Senior Associate for Rights and Development
at the Washington Office on Latin America (WOLA). And last, but
certainly not least, Kevin Casas-Zamora is a Senior Fellow for
Foreign Policy and Latin American Initiative at The Brookings
Institution. He is also a former Costa Rican Second Vice
President and Minister of National Planning and Economic
Policies; welcome. We will start with you, Ms. Gass.
STATEMENT OF MS. VICKI GASS, SENIOR ASSOCIATE FOR RIGHTS AND
DEVELOPMENT, WASHINGTON OFFICE ON LATIN AMERICA (WOLA)
Ms. Gass. Thank you very much for this opportunity. Let me
begin with saying that Honduras is in crisis. Let me also be
very clear that this is not a crisis that originated in June of
last year or ended with the inauguration of President Lobo in
January.
The new government faces a crisis of credibility, long in
the making, because 30 years of democracy has done little to
reduce poverty and inequality in Honduras, which makes it one
of the poorest countries in the Hemisphere; nor has it
curtailed the seemingly entrenched culture of corruption and
impunity.
Citizen belief in the democratic system is at an all time
low. A recent poll conducted by FOPRIDEH revealed that 60
percent of Hondurans no longer believe in democracy.
Compounding this crisis, violations of human rights have
escalated since the coup, and have continued since President
Lobo's inauguration. We have heard about some of those today.
The State Department also released just last week its human
rights report, which indicates the following types of human
rights violations: Unlawful killing by current and former
government security forces--at least 50, according to COFADEH;
arbitrary detentions, attacks against the press, and
disproportionate use of force. These attacks were directed
against citizens actively opposed to the coup and/or their
family members.
Let me share with you some concrete examples. In august
2009, Irma Villanueva was arbitrarily detailed by Honduran
Policy after participating in a peaceful demonstration. While
detained, she was raped by four police officers, who later
inserted their batons into her vagina. Sadly, that was not the
only case that was reported.
On December 4th, lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgendered
Walter Trochez was kidnapped and physically assaulted by
unknown people. Nine days later, he was assassinated.
And as we have heard today, three reporters in the last 2
weeks have been assassinated; reporters who were outspoken
against the coup. The last one, Nahun Palacios, was shot to
death in broad daylight last Sunday.
These last attacks are just a sampling of reported
associations, kidnapping, and beating that have occurred since
the inauguration. In Honduras, there is widespread concern that
the military has emerged stronger from this crisis, and that
death squads are once again on the prowl.
The popular reaction against the coup has to be understood
in the context of the ongoing poverty and inequality in
Honduras, and the pervasive corruption and impunity. Honduras
is rich in natural resources. Yet, the majority of the people
are poor. The poorest 10 percent account for only 1 percent of
the county's income; while the richest 10 percent account for
42 percent.
Hondurans are tired of this, and as tired of the corruption
and impunity. According to the Honduran Anti-National Anti-
Corruption Commission in its December 2009 report, corruption
pervades every level of the state, and particularly in bidding
for public state contracts, especially in the last 6 months
under the Micheletti government.
This is not a new phenomenon in Honduras. It has happened
with debt relief funds, and reconstruction funds have been
diverted to fulfill campaign promises. The National Congress
awards contracts to its members or members of their family to
build roads or bus stations that are never built; and
international loans are brokered and debt assumed for projects
that are never completed, even though the creditors must still
be paid.
The level of corruption has an enormous social cost;
roughly $500 million are lost every year due to corruption.
This is not a new phenomenon, but one that has been going on
for decades.
Unfortunately, prosecutions and convictions of those who
participate in corruption are extremely rare. If Americans are
unable to get their problems resolved in Honduras, even less so
Honduran people. Only 2.2 percent of the 2,000 corruption cases
that reached the court between 2002 and 2006 resulted in an
actual conviction. Corruption and impunity are also problem
within the armed forces.
What could be done to reconcile a deeply divided country
whose government institutions do not work and lack credibility?
There are three immediate things that President Lobo must do.
He must make clear, publicly and privately, that violations of
human rights are unacceptable and will be punished, whatever
the rank or position of those involved. He must guarantee that
the Truth Commission has complete and independent power to
thoroughly investigate and charge those responsible for coup
and for human rights abuses.
Finally, he must carry out a meaningful national dialogue
across Honduras, drawing on the extensive experience of
organizations that have worked on local development and civil
society participation. I would refer members to my written
testimony, which has more detailed, concrete suggestions for
these three areas.
President Lobo's ability to do this will depend in many
ways on the support of the international community. As is often
said out of any crisis, there is opportunity. This is a
critical moment for Honduras. The United States and other
donors must play a key role to press President Lobo to carry
out these steps and offer him assistance to do so.
Secretary Clinton recently announced her intentions to
restore aid to Honduras. But WOLA urges the Secretary to not
release all the aid at once, but gradually based on significant
progress in the three areas mentioned in my testimony.
In addition, WOLA recommends that all aid to Honduras be
subject to Congressional notification, so that the committees
can conduct oversight, as needed. In particular, the
subcommittee and the appropriators should ask the
administration to report to them on progress in the areas
outlined above.
The Hondurans I work with are a hard working and noble
people. They deserve no less; thank you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Gass follows:]Vicki
Gass
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Ms. Gass; Ambassador Arcos?
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CRESENCIO ``CRIS'' ARCOS (FORMER
ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY FOR INTERNATIONAL
AFFAIRS) (FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO HONDURAS)
Ambassador Arcos. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman,
members, and ranking member, I have had a few years experience
with Honduras, having served there from 1980 to 1985 and then
again in 1989 to 1993. I have watched Honduras as it started
its path to democracy and development.
Honduras has had an exceptional history during the Cold
War. It had a key role in the 1980s Central American Crisis,
which was one of the last two flash points of the Cold War.
Afghanistan was the other area. United States policy went
beyond containment in its successful roll back efforts to drive
the Soviets from these two regions.
Honduras' unique history explains why it was not engulfed
by civil war or insurrection. Henry Kissinger, as head of the
U.S. Commission on Central America, asked, ``Why was Honduras
able to avoid the acute instability of its three neighbors?''
The answer was simple. Honduras' history and topography
precluded the development of a traditional repressive
oligarchy.
Honduras escaped civil upheaval. Its democratic process,
however, was less than transparent. The rule of law remains a
misunderstood concept. Recently elected Porfirio Lobo as
President faces a similar challenge. The region's movers and
shakers continue to seek too often impunity. Unfortunately, in
Honduras, a culture of impunity continues alongside the equally
undesired practice of conflict of interest.
President Lobo faces several other hurdles. Income
inequity, as we mentioned, is creating unsettling new political
challenges. Increased dependence on foreign remittances is
being driven by uncontrolled Hondurans migrating to the United
States.
Additionally, unenforced foreign investment guarantees
remain problematic. In Honduras, egregious U.S. investor claims
remain unsolved or unsettled by the Honduran Government or its
justice system, as noted in the CEMAR case being expropriated.
The Bilateral Reinvestment Treaty does not appear to be a
practical solution for these neglected cases. This requires a
response from the Department of State in demanding resolution
and a more cooperative Honduran Government.
Another impediment that President Lobo faces is a poorly
funded and administrated educational system, originally
designed to lift the county's poor out of extreme poverty. This
educational crisis contributes to unsettling social conditions
and dwindling opportunities for a better future.
Criminal gang activity has created widespread fear. This
criminal activity includes homicide, kidnapping, rape,
narcotics trafficking, and too often, public corruption.
Together with narcotics trafficking, youth gang warfare has
become a national security threat to Honduras.
Lastly, institutional weakness is common in Honduras.
Governmental institutions invariable are ineffective or
inefficient. Corruption is often cited as the cause.
Honduras has nonetheless come a long way. However, the
recent political crisis was a shattering and surprisingly
polarizing event. This involved the removal of President
Zelaya. He recklessly ignited severe censure among the
Hondurans with his so-called unconstitutional behavior.
The episode was complicated by the blurred role of the
Hondurans Supreme Court and its National Congress. This
provoked basic constitutional questions. The role of the
military became controversial to the democratic process. Re-
introducing the military into a political role is most
disquieting.
Additionally, the subsequent widespread human rights
violations that included loss of life, violence against
journalists, critics, and other dissidents, the closing down of
mass media outlets; the ongoing Bajo Aguan peasant land dispute
crisis has spiraled into daily violence that is symptomatic of
the recent political crisis.
Clearly, President Lobo faces his first real challenge. The
sum of this recent democratic disruption has unleased
challenges for Honduras and specifically for the new President.
These include, as I mentioned, increased human rights
violations as reported by media sources and documented by the
human rights community. The concentration of power in a plainly
victorious political party may tempt perpetuation in power.
Removal of a President by the Army without the presence of
civilian authorities presents a dangerous precedent, and
wrongfully signals the acceptance of the military/civilian
role.
Mr. Sires. Mr. Ambassador, we are going to have to cut you
short. Because we have votes, and I want to hear from Dr.
Casas-Zamora.
Ambassador Arcos. Okay.
Mr. Sires. Thank you; my apologies.
Ambassador Arcos. Okay, let me just finish it up then.
Frankly and finally, President Lobo must demonstrate political
will to address these challenges. It is premature to make a
judgment.
The new President appears to have a good sense of his
people's right. The establishment of the Truth Commission is
imperative to help to identify what ails Honduras and offers a
roadmap toward a way forward. Thank you very much, Mr.
Chairman.
[The prepared statement of Ambassador Arcos
follows:]Cresencio Arcos
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.
Dr. Casa-Zamora, you are on.
STATEMENT OF HIS EXCELLENCY KEVIN CASAS-ZAMORA, SENIOR FELLOW,
FOREIGN POLICY AND LATIN AMERICA INITIATIVE, THE BROOKINGS
INSTITUTION (FORMER MINISTER OF NATIONAL PLANNING AND ECONOMIC
POLICY AND SECOND VICE PRESIDENT OF COSTA RICA)
Mr. Casas-Zamora. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman and
Members of Congress, ladies and gentlemen, the crisis in
Honduras is the most important incident in inter-American
relations of the past year. The interpretation of the events
that led to former President Manuel Zelaya's ousting from power
remains contentious to this day. I will avoid re-revisiting
that discussion here.
Indeed, the debate about the constitutional nuances
surrounding what happened on June 28 of 2009 was of limited
value when the crisis was raging, and is of even less value
now. For what was missing though was some reflection about how
Honduras got to that point, and what should be done to present
a similar episode in the future.
The election of Porfirio Lobo as President in a free and
fair contest was an important part of the solution to the
immediate crisis in this small nation. The deeper causes of the
meltdown remain, however, untouched to this day.
To his credit, President Lobo has given hints that he
understands the complexity of the situation. He grasps that
political actors in Honduras have two crucial endeavors in
their hands. The first is giving the country a sense of
political normalcy. The second is dealing with the underlying
causes of the crisis.
If Honduras is to return to normalcy, nothing is more
urgent than fostering reconciliation. A significant part of the
road map to do this is laid out in the San Jose and Tegucigalpa
Accords. President Lobo's record of implementing this accord is
mixed. He made a commendable effort to integrate a national
unity government and played a decisive role in pressing for a
controversial, but necessary amnesty for political offenses.
Another key clause of the agreements, i.e., installing a
truth commission to inquire into the events before and after
June 28th has proved problematic. The concern here is the
Honduran Government's ambivalence toward allowing the
Commission to investigate the human rights abuses that took
place after June 28. These abuses have been denounced, among
others, by the Inter-American Commission of Human Rights. There
is no justification whatsoever for leaving these transgressions
outside of the Truth Commission's purview.
The second endeavor for the country's political elite is
dealing with three issues that lie beneath the 2009 debacle;
namely social exclusion, deep distrust in political
institutions and a problematic constitutional design. Seventy
percent of the Honduran population lives in poverty. Moreover,
the wealthiest 10 percent of the population concentrates six
times more income than the bottom 40 percent. This is bad, even
for Latin American standards.
These figures can hardly be dented if the fiscal base of
the state is precarious. Honduras' current tax burden stands at
14.8 percent of GBP; below the average for Latin America and
less than half the median for industrialized countries.
Two things are known to happen when a society harbors such
levels of social exclusion. First, it becomes a violent
society. Second, it nurtures a political style in which
populism becomes a permanent temptation.
Honduras needs a serious effort to negotiate a fiscal pact
that allows for an increasing taxation and a fair distribution
of the tax burden.
Equally dismal is the distrust in political institutions.
Surveys show that trust in Congress, the Judiciary in partisan
Honduras is below the already low figures for Latin America.
This is related to pervasive corruption. Honduras stands at the
bottom of Central America in the Corruption Perception Index
elaborated by Transparency International.
President Lobo should make an effort to de-politicize the
institutions charged with controlling the exercise of power,
including the Supreme Court, the General Comptroller, the
National Ombudsman, and the Supreme Electoral Tribunal.
The third issue is constitutional design. The days leading
up to June 28th provided ample evidence that some aspects of
Honduras' 1982 Constitution are problematic. One such aspect is
the lack of an impeachment process against the President, which
introduces an element of rigidity in a regime that already
lacks flexibility to deal with political upheavals.
Re-tooling these norms is, of course, a task for the
Honduran people alone. Yet, the reluctance to engage in a
conversation about the country's constitutional architecture is
an odd reaction to an episode in which the shortcomings of that
design were rendered all too evident.
All these issues require broad based agreements. Honduras
needs a process of national dialogue in which sectors that
supports Zelaya ought to participate. While President Lobo
should take the lead in convening this process, international
organizations could play a role in facilitating the discussion.
What are the next steps for the international community?
First, it should end Honduras' diplomatic isolation. It is hard
to see any justification in prolonging this isolation,
particularly from the OAS. Regardless of what may have happened
on June 28th, the current government is a result of an election
that while not devoid of problems was widely considered free
and fair.
Moreover, there is no evidence that Lobo's government is
exercising powers in ways incompatible with democracy.
Chastising Honduras after a new government is in place is not
the way to protect democracy, if that co-exists with Latin
America's deafening silence regarding serious threats to
democracy in countries such as Venezuela or Nicaragua, or with
the region's apparent eagerness for revoking Cuba's suspension
from the OAS with very few questions asked. This kind of
hypocrisy undermines the legitimacy of any international forum.
Normalizing diplomatic relations with Honduras and
admitting the country back into the OAS' fold as soon as
possible is a contribution that the international community
could certainly make.
The second task is nudging Honduras political actors toward
dealing with some of the tasks outlined before. There are a few
levers that could be used. The agreement between the IMF and
Honduras that is currently under negotiation presents an
interesting opportunity.
It is desirable that the United States and the European
Union member states use their leverage in the IMF to postpone
the normalization of economic relations with Honduras until the
Truth Commission is guaranteed an untrammeled mandate to
inquire on the events leading up and following June 28th,
including the human rights abuses perpetrated after that date.
The road to democratic health in Honduran is long and
steep. President Lobo should be commended for making gestures
toward reconciliation; but a lot remains to be done.
Proclaiming that the crisis is over is simply a poor service to
the Honduran people and an invitation for future democratic
breakdowns. Thank you very much.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Casas-Zamora
follows:]Kevin Casas-Zamora
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Mr. Engel [presiding]. Thank you very much. I am going to
defer for the first question to Mr. Sires.
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and this is for anyone
that wants to take a crack at this. Over the past couple of
years, we have seen a closing of democratic space in the
Americas. For example, the deteriorating human rights situation
in Venezuela, and the Supreme Court decision in Nicaragua to
lift the Constitution ban on re-election.
I was just wondering, in your opinion, is the
administration effectively dealing with the closing of
democratic space in the Americas--this administration?
Ms. Gass. Thank you; I would add from WOLA's perspective
that there is actually more of a tendency for countries to move
toward referendums, which is a demonstration for people's wish
to participate in democracy as a result of their disappointment
in the democratic process thus far to end issues of poverty and
equality.
Mr. Sires. So you are telling me that there is no closing
of democratic space; that the referendum is the vehicle?
Ms. Gass. No, I did not say that there was not any closure.
I said I think there is a greater tendency toward pushing for
referendums, because people want to participate in politics.
They want to participate in democracy.
Mr. Sires. Does anyone else want to comment; Mr. Arcos?
Ambassador Arcos. Clearly there are examples; most recently
1 year ago in Nicaragua. It was alleged in pretty much a
consensus that the Sandinistas stole the local elections.
Clearly that tells us that there is something wrong there.
Mr. Sires. But how are we handling this, Mr. Ambassador?
Ambassador Arcos. Well, I am not in the administration any
longer, in this administration.
Mr. Sires. Well, you have an opinion.
Ambassador Arcos. But I would say that what we need to
understand is, first of all, I think there was a consensus on
this particular case. We need to make sure that the Nicaraguan
Government knows our concern; not only ours, but the OAS or
anybody else, of what is going on there. Because basically,
what they are doing is basically setting it up for a
perpetuation of power. That is my opinion; thank you.
Mr. Engel. Thank you, Mr. Sires; Mr. Mack?
Mr. Mack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, I listened
with great interest from all of your testimony. Well, let me
just find a point that I would like to probe a little bit more.
Moving forward, what type of activities do you think that
the United States should engage in on issues of poverty, human
rights? What types of things, looking forward is it that you
think that the United States can do to help show that we
support the people of Latin America; and that we might not
necessarily support some of the governments in Latin American;
but that we support the people of Latin America.
So if you want to just go down the line and each of you
give me a quick thought on that, I would appreciate it.
Ms. Gass. Well, I think there are several things that the
administration can do. First is, if military and police aid are
restored, they can use that to strengthen the institution
perhaps by investigating the human rights violations that have
taken place since the coup in June; and use that to strengthen
an institution that is incredibly weak.
And then secondly, I would say that they really need to
work hand in hand in pushing a meaningful dialogue over a
longer period of time--not a consultation of 2 or 3 days; but
do something that is de-centralized in the regions, and
supporting that financially, because that is a cost.
Mr. Mack. Mr. Ambassador?
Ambassador Arcos. Frankly, Mr. Congressman, let me say
this. I think having been a Cold Warrior in the foreign
service, this is dear to my heart--your question about what do
we do in Latin America. I started off as a Sovietologist, and I
wound up in Central America. So that taught me something.
But let me say this. I think that after the Cold War ended,
quite frankly favoring us, we tended to forget about Latin
America. We had other concerns, and then ultimately we had 9/
11, and then we were even more distant, in a way, from Latin
America. I think the Latin Americans really feel that we should
be closer--not necessarily run their lives or tell them what to
do; but basically be more supportive.
I think that the perception in Latin America right now is
sort of distorted about the United States in many ways. Most
recently, when you see this new organization that will exclude
Canada and Mexico; where you will see Colombia and Mexico and
El Salvador, traditional friends of the United States, joining
this.
It tells me this, and I was quoted some time ago on this,
where what has happened, it seems like the left has lost its
fear of the United States; and the right, its respect. Because
I think both thought we were going to react and squash the
left, quite frankly. I think they see that as the explanation
for Chavez.
I am not advocating here any violence or anything against
anybody or any country. But I think we have to understand how
we are seen in the wake of the end of the Cold War, which has
now been 20 years; and that we have been somewhat negligent in
coming up with a solid, continuous, clear policy toward the
region.
Mr. Mack. Doctor?
Mr. Casas-Zamora. Thank you, Congressman; that is a really
important question. The first part of my answer would be that
perhaps the United States should qualify the message that for a
long time became standard; that lifting Latin America's poor
was just about trade and investment. It is a much more
complicated story.
I would say that the agenda that Secretary Clinton took to
Latin America in her last trip was a very good one. By the way,
you could definitely see the hand of Assistant Secretary
Venezuela in crafting that agenda. Because he is someone that
understands profoundly the really deep development issues that
are at stake in Latin America.
And when we talk about social inclusion, it is inevitable
to think of some issues in which the United States could
certainly do a lot in the region. Tax reform--I mean, you
certainly know how to charge taxes and to collect taxes in this
country. That is something that we are not very good at in
Latin America.
The other issue is about supporting small and medium
enterprises. I mean, there are wonderful things that the United
States could do to support small and medium enterprises in the
region. And the other part of my answer would be about having
perhaps a more subtle understanding of the nature of the
political changes that are taking place in some countries in
the region.
I am pretty convinced that some of the things that are
happening in some countries regarding the way some governments
are exercising power are not acceptable. But somebody mentioned
here the issue of indigenous people.
Well, I mean, the one country in which I can think that
something significant has been done about indigenous people is
Bolivia. I mean, I happen not to like the regime of Evo
Morales. But there is an issue there; and that tells you that
there is a problem of political inclusion that is trying to be
sold in some of the countries. And oftentimes the process
whereby populations that have not been included in the
political system, it is not pretty.
So a more subtle understanding about what underlies beneath
some of the political change that is taking place in some
countries would certainly help; thank you.
Mr. Mack. Thank you very much.
Mr. Engel. Thank you; as you can hear, we have votes just
starting, so I am going to try to speed this up. Let me first
ask a general question, and anyone who would care to answer it,
I would be delighted to hear what you have to say.
Pepe Lobo, when he became President, pledged to implement
the two remaining pieces of the Tegucigalpa-San Jose Accord;
and that is the formation of a national unity government and
the creation of a Truth Commission to investigate the events
before, during, and after the ouster of President Zelaya.
What to an extent, in your opinion, have these pieces of
this accord been implemented. The Lobo administration, would
you describe them as a national unity government; why or why
not? And how would you assess the Lobo administration's efforts
to foster political reconciliation in Honduras; what more would
need to be done? Does anybody want to try it? It is a big
question. But essentially, how do you think Lobo has been doing
in all those things?
Mr. Casas-Zamora. As I said in my statement, I think the
record is mixed. I think he did great when it came to putting a
lot of pressure to have an amnesty voted by the Honduran
Congress. The amnesty is not pretty; but it is necessary. It
was, you know, the right thing to do. And amnesty for political
offenses--I mean, of course there is a discussion on all this.
I think he did well and should be commended for trying to
integrate a national unity government. My only issue with that
is that some of the people that he called on to serve in his
administration, people from other parties, are there on a
personal capacity. They are not there because they represent
political sectors. Some people might say that that is not a
national unity government. All the same, I think he should be
commended. I think it is a courageous thing to do.
And the third point, which is the one that concerns me the
most is the ambivalence with regards to the mandate of the
Truth Commission. I think that is a burdening issue, quite
frankly.
And I think the attempts to live outside of the
Commission's purview, the human rights abuses that have been
documented to have occurred after June 28th, is unacceptable;
and the international community and hopefully the U.S.
Government should rebuke that attempt to life those abuses
outside of the workings of the Commission.
Mr. Engel. What more would need to be done, in your
opinion, for the Truth Commission to get started with its work?
Mr. Casas-Zamora. Well, they need to appoint the members,
and I think they are making some progress in that regard. And I
think the crucial discussion here is about the mandate of the
Commission, and the Commission's ability to make proper
recommendations about what they find as a result of their
investigation.
It is my impression that the agreement between the IMF and
the Government of Honduras that is currently under negotiation
offers a very interesting lever to nudge the Honduran
Government toward complying with a mandate for the Truth
Commission that includes the investigation of human rights
abuse.
Because I do not think the normalization of economic
relations with Honduras should take place until there is an
explicit commitment by the Honduran Government to cooperate
fully with the Truth Commission in whatever direction their
investigation takes them.
Mr. Engel. Thank you; Ambassador, did I see your hand up?
Ambassador Arcos. Yes, Mr. Chairman; I would just like to
add to what Dr. Casas said. Personally knowing Pepe Lobo, I
think that he has the best of intentions and great political
instincts in the sense of his people.
I think the Truth Commission is certainly the first vehicle
he will use. I think my guess is that he will keep it from
becoming a sort of Sectarian, let us get one side or another. I
think he is going to try to keep it away from becoming that
politicized. Because there is a tendency, and I think the
debate is the country is, we should go after ``x'' and not
``y'' or ``y'' over ``x.''
So I think that he will be a moderating factor in that. But
I think he has to be very clear of his own expectations
publicly, so he can lay the markers out.
Mr. Engel. Thank you; let me ask you, Mr. Ambassador, a
question on another subject. You heard all of us speak to
Ambassador Kelly and talk about these cases that were held out
by American citizens. We mentioned, in particular, Mr. Cerna's
case, the CEMAR plant case.
Do you know if, in fact, it is true that the military holds
a very significant ownership and management stake in the
largest cement company currently in Honduras; and is this the
same company accused by Honduras' own Attorney General of, and
I am quoting him, ``eliminating and bankrupting the CEMAR
plant''?
Ambassador Arcos. What I know, Mr. Chairman, is the
following. When I was there, they had what they called an
institute. But the military had a pension fund, quite frankly,
which was the largest owner of one of the cement companies
which grew to be one of two major cement companies. When Mr.
Cerna entered the market, he competed with them.
So they did have that, and I think they had it up until
recently. I am not aware of whether they have it yet; still
have it or not have it. But certainly at the time of what
happened to Mr. Cerna, they did have an interest in it, as far
as I understand.
I think that this has been a problem. But you know, quite
frankly, there is a distance between the actually military
general or colonel running the company. It is when it is the
pension fund that has a tremendous influence; but it represents
the military.
So there would be a discussion here that would not be very
clear. Because the implication is that the military sort of
runs it like it runs a unit. It does not do that. But there is
interest there. There is clearly interest, and that needs to be
clarified.
Mr. Engel. Thank you; and let me ask a final question,
based on something that I mentioned in my opening statement.
That is the attacks on the LGBT community in Honduras.
In June, I am told that the attacks on that community
escalated substantially in June with 19 murders of prominent
members of that community. What can the Obama administration do
to encourage the Honduran Government to help prevent future
violence against this community; and are there activities we
could financially support in Honduras to strengthen these
groups operating in the country? I do not know, Ms. Gass, would
you want to try that one?
Ms. Gass. I think that is a complicated question, Mr.
Chairman, given the level of impunity and corruption that
exists in Honduras.
I think certainly that the Embassy and Tegucigalpa have
spoken out very strongly against the murder of Walter Trochez,
as well as others, since the June coup.
I think I would encourage them to continue to do that; and
again, use aid that is reinstated to strengthen institutions--
the judicial system, the investigatory capacity of the police,
and others.
Mr. Engel. Thank you; I think that will have to be the last
word, because Mr. Mack and I have to take a series of three or
four votes.
But I want to thank the three of you for excellent
testimony. I apologize that I had to leave for a little while;
because what I was doing here was trying to juggle five balls
in the air at the same time.
But obviously this is something that is of great concern to
Mr. Mack and myself and our entire committee. I think that
there are, as I said before, not a lot of difference when it
comes to Honduras between the two parties.
I know that the United States wants to help that country
get back on its feet, and I think that this subcommittee will
continue to monitor that progress, with consideration of all
the important issues that we raised today. So I thank the three
of you for excellent testimony, and the hearing is now
adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 5:01 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
----------
Material Submitted for the Hearing Record Notice
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Meeting
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Mack
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Connie Mack, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Florida
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Lee
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Barbara Lee, a Representative
in Congress from the State of California
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Lee
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Barbara Lee, a Representative
in Congress from the State of California
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Lee
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Barbara Lee, a Representative
in Congress from the State of California
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Burton
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative
in Congress from the State of Indiana
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Engel
Submitted for the record by the Honorable Eliot L. Engel, a
Representative in Congress from the State of New York, and Chairman,
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
__________
[Note: A submission for the record by the Honorable Eliot L.
Engel consisting of court papers from the United States
District Court, Southern District of Mississippi, Jackson
Division, of Byrd vs. Forestal, filed February 24, 2003, is not
reprinted here but is available in committee records.]
[all]
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