[House Hearing, 111 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office]
THE STATE OF POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN THE MIDDLE EAST
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
THE MIDDLE EAST AND SOUTH ASIA
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOVEMBER 19, 2009
__________
Serial No. 111-77
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/
______
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COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOWARD L. BERMAN, California, Chairman
GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York ILEANA ROS-LEHTINEN, Florida
ENI F.H. FALEOMAVAEGA, American CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
Samoa DAN BURTON, Indiana
DONALD M. PAYNE, New Jersey ELTON GALLEGLY, California
BRAD SHERMAN, California DANA ROHRABACHER, California
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
BILL DELAHUNT, Massachusetts RON PAUL, Texas
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York JEFF FLAKE, Arizona
DIANE E. WATSON, California MIKE PENCE, Indiana
RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri JOE WILSON, South Carolina
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey JOHN BOOZMAN, Arkansas
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina
MICHAEL E. McMAHON, New York CONNIE MACK, Florida
JOHN S. TANNER, Tennessee JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska
GENE GREEN, Texas MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas
LYNN WOOLSEY, California TED POE, Texas
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
BARBARA LEE, California GUS BILIRAKIS, Florida
SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada
JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York
MIKE ROSS, Arkansas
BRAD MILLER, North Carolina
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia
JIM COSTA, California
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota
GABRIELLE GIFFORDS, Arizona
RON KLEIN, Florida
Richard J. Kessler, Staff Director
Yleem Poblete, Republican Staff Director
------
Subcommittee on the Middle East and South Asia
GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York, Chairman
RUSS CARNAHAN, Missouri DAN BURTON, Indiana
MICHAEL E. McMAHON, New York JOE WILSON, South Carolina
SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina
SHELLEY BERKLEY, Nevada JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska
JOSEPH CROWLEY, New York MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas
MIKE ROSS, Arkansas BOB INGLIS, South Carolina
JIM COSTA, California GUS BILIRAKIS, Florida
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota DANA ROHRABACHER, California
RON KLEIN, Florida EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
BRAD SHERMAN, California
ROBERT WEXLER,
FloridaUntil 12/1/
09 deg.
ELIOT L. ENGEL, New York
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
GENE GREEN, Texas
Howard Diamond, Subcommittee Staff Director
Mark Walker, Republican Professional Staff Member
Dalis Adler, Staff AssociateFrom Blumenfeld as of 9/9/09 deg.
C O N T E N T S
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Page
WITNESS
The Honorable Michael H. Posner, Assistant Secretary, Bureau of
Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor, U.S. Department of State... 10
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC., SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
The Honorable Gary L. Ackerman, a Representative in Congress from
the State of New York, and Chairman, Subcommittee on the Middle
East and South Asia: Prepared statement........................ 3
The Honorable Dan Burton, a Representative in Congress from the
State of Indiana: Prepared statement........................... 8
The Honorable Michael H. Posner: Prepared statement.............. 12
APPENDIX
Hearing notice................................................... 26
Hearing minutes.................................................. 27
Statement of Representatives Anna G. Eshoo and Frank Wolf, Co-
Chairs, Religious Minorities in the Middle East Caucus......... 28
Questions of Representative Anna G. Eshoo........................ 35
The Honorable Michael H. Posner: IRF Report, Introduction........ 38
THE STATE OF POLITICAL AND RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IN THE MIDDLE EAST
----------
THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2009
House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on the Middle East
and South Asia,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:30 p.m., in
room 2172, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Gary L. Ackerman
(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Mr. Ackerman. The committee will come to order.
In some places, and particularly in the Middle East, people
may wonder about the sincerity of American concern about
religious freedom. Skeptics, especially in the Arab world, may
suspect that our professed interest in the freedom of belief,
thought, and worship is merely a cudgel we use to beat our
political opponents when convenient.
Such thinking is not only completely wrong on the facts,
but utterly misunderstands our national character, which has
always held to the belief in universal rights and the hope that
these rights would spread throughout the world.
Among the Founders, Thomas Jefferson put it best in a
letter sent only days before the 50th anniversary of our
independence. Referring to that great July 4th 50 years
earlier, he wrote:
``May it be to the world, what I believe it will be,
(to some parts sooner, to others later, but finally to
all,) the signal of arousing men to burst the chains
under which monkish ignorance and superstition had
persuaded them to bind themselves, and to assume the
blessings and security of self-government. That form
which we have substituted, restores the free right to
the unbounded exercise of reason and freedom of
opinion.''
So said Jefferson.
Whatever his other failings, Jefferson understood and
expressed better than any other of the founding generation the
ideals that have set the United States apart and won for us a
special destiny.
And, in fact, that unique drive to share the blessings of
freedom pervaded even those earliest years of the American
diplomatic engagement with the Middle East. Though even few
Americans recall or learn little of our Nation's involvement in
the Arab world before the 20th century, the fact is among our
Nation's very earliest foreign policy struggles and successes,
the Middle East played a very prominent role. And in seeking to
protect American ships from piracy in the southern
Mediterranean from the very start, American diplomats and
envoys took it upon themselves to seek protection for religious
minorities. And this work continues to this very day.
It is probably true that our relations throughout the
region would be considerably simplified if we chose to regard
religious discrimination and repression in other countries as
purely internal matters. Many other states have taken this
approach. But such an abdication of our most fundamental
beliefs is not within the character of this country, not now,
and not in the future. For better or worse, we are called to be
witnesses.
It is not within our power or desire to shape the affairs
of other states, but we are not blind to the suffering and
misfortune which is meted out daily throughout the world, and
particularly in the Middle East, on the basis of religion, even
among our close allies. So as we are not blind or deaf, we must
not also be mute.
There are several reasons for this obligation. First, we
must be true to our own values. Religious freedom is a core
American value, and remaining silent in the face of evil is to
become complicit with that evil.
Secondly, as we maintain our belief in the righteousness of
our values, we must also maintain hope that others will
recognize and come to accept what we have always held to be
self-evident truths.
And finally, both the victims and the perpetrators of
religious bias, discrimination and violence should know that we
are watching, and we are aware, and we are concerned. However
certain the perpetrators of these acts may be of their
authority, they rarely like to have their deeds exposed. Power
cannot dispel shame.
And we are not without misdeeds ourselves. Our own history
is sadly rife with long years of repression and outbreaks of
brutality. But while our history may be flawed, the ideals to
which we are ever struggling to come closer are not.
The right to believe or not, and to exercise that belief in
worship and religious practice, is not a different thing here
in the United States than it is in the Middle East or in any
other place.
Some of our allies will complain that behind the facade of
religion lie threats of the utmost urgency to their states and
to the well-being of their publics. That may be so. But the
obligation to distinguish between legal association and
criticism, and illegal conspiracy and treason, lies with the
state. The responsibility to protect the weak and the helpless
from the strong and the powerful lies with the state. The
boundary between the religious character of a nation and the
secular aspect of a government must be maintained by the state.
We do not expect every, or any, nation to become cookie-
cutter copies of the United States, but we do expect that
states will adhere to their own international commitments and
treaty obligations.
Jefferson concluded his letter with,
``All eyes are opened, or opening, to the rights of
man. The general spread of the light of science has
already laid open to every view the palpable truth,
that the mass of mankind has not been born with saddles
on their backs, nor a favored few booted and spurred,
ready to ride them legitimately, by the grace of God.
These are grounds of hope for others. For ourselves,
let the annual return of this day forever refresh our
recollections of these rights, and an undiminished
devotion to them.''
[The prepared statement of Mr. Ackerman
follows:]Ackerman statement deg.
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Mr. Ackerman. Mr. Green.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to
thank our assistant secretary, Mr. Posner, for testifying this
afternoon.
Today we are here to discuss the state of political and
religious freedom in the Middle East, which our witness is well
aware of with last month's release of the State Department's
2009 Report on International Religious Freedom.
I recently joined several of my colleagues, including
Chairman Ackerman, in sending a letter to the select member
states of the United Nations about the defamation of religions
resolution that is annually considered by the U.N. Human Rights
Council and the U.N. General Assembly. This resolution is
inconsistent with the basic freedoms of religion and
expression, and the fact it is annually considered by the U.N.
highlights the problem the U.S. faces in promoting these
freedoms across the globe.
The International Religious Freedom Act of 1998 named the
promotion of religious freedom for all persons as a core
objective of U.S. foreign policy. I agree with this as
religious freedom is a fundamental human right. However, there
are significant challenges to these freedoms throughout many
parts of the world, particularly in several Middle Eastern
countries. In these countries religious minorities do not enjoy
equal access to the basic services and opportunities those
belonging to the religious majority are afforded.
I understand from your testimony, Assistant Secretary
Posner, that the State Department is exploring ways to increase
our capacity to engage the region's faith leaders as a way to
bolster human rights and religious equality throughout the
region. However, in a region extremely leery of Western
involvement, how do we do this while avoiding a political
backlash from regional governments, and Islamists, and
especially avoiding charges of meddling in domestic affairs?
I look forward to hearing from you on this fundamental
question. Again, thank you for being here.
I yield back my time.
Mr. Ackerman. Thank you.
Ms. Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Chairman, what an appropriate hearing
as we continue to assess the conditions, both political,
democratic and religious conditions, in the Mideast, a region
in which I believe there is hope. But we cannot avoid the hard
questions, and I look forward to hearing Assistant Secretary
Posner on these issues.
I want to just highlight my concerns in particular with
Iran. Throughout 2009, the Government of Iran has persistently
violated the rights of its citizens. The Government of Iran's
most overt display of disregard for political rights happened
in the Presidential elections of June 12, 2009. And as I said
on June 19th, 2009, we must condemn Iran for the absence of
fair and free Presidential elections and urge Iran to provide
its people with the opportunity to engage in democratic
election processes. All of that contributes to the respect for
individual rights. And we have seen repression and murder,
arbitrary arrests, and show trials of peaceful dissidents in
the wake of elections. It was a sad reminder. Right now
Americans are being detained in Iran, which, again, emphasizes
the lack of respect for human rights.
This whole issue of religion is also a question. In spite
of Iran's constitutional guarantee that non-Shiite Muslims and
other religious groups, including Zoroastrians, Christians and
Jews, are protected, the State Department's annual Report on
International Religious Freedom describes discrimination for
those groups and the situation for religious minorities in Iran
as ``deteriorating.'' I might be more forceful and say
``nonexistent.''
National security and regional stability are overriding
concerns with regard to Iran, but the rights violations that
the Government of Iran perpetrates against its citizens are
similarly unacceptable.
I have constituents from Iran, families who have been
separated from each other, who have not been allowed to
reconcile or to engage because of the problems in Iran. When we
consider our relations with Iran, human rights, including
political and religious freedoms, must be a high priority.
Just as well, even as we have made progress in Iraq, I am
concerned about the political and religious freedoms in Iraq,
because the degree to which Iraq protects those rights is a
reflection on our own country and what we have been able to
accomplish. There are groups, for example, that do exist, but
do not have the protection in Iraq.
This year, 3 months after United States forces turned over
control of Camp Ashraf, Iraqi security forces violated the
human rights of the People's Mujahedin of Iran. Camp Ashraf
detains over 3,400 exiled Iranian political dissidents or
members of the PMOI, including over 1,000 women. Detaining is
one we disagree with, but the oppression and violence is one
that we cannot tolerate. The PMOI opposes the current Iranian
regime, and for their political beliefs they have been exiled
from Iran and sequestered in Camp Ashraf. Several women
detained in this camp have reported acts of intimidation and
threats of physical and sexual violence by members of the Iraqi
security forces. I would only suggest that as we begin to
highlight this question, we have to stand as well for the
respect of all faiths.
I conclude by saying just in the past week, we were able to
meet with the mayor of Jerusalem, who envisioned a Jerusalem
where people of all faiths can live and worship as they choose.
For those of us who have visited Israel, we can see where all
religions converge. I support that concept. Let us have all
religions converging, wherever they may find themselves, and
let us hold as sacred the rights of people to practice their
faith, a faith that is nonviolent, their faith that promotes
unity, their faith that promotes love. And all the religions
that I have been able to study in the world follow in that
tradition. It is only when those traditions are violated when
horrible and horrific acts are perpetrated under the name of
religion. I hope we can support the religion that brings unity
and reconciliation.
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Mr. Ackerman. Thank you.
We will now hear from my partner on the subcommittee, the
distinguished ranking member from Indiana, Mr. Burton.
Mr. Burton. Mr. Chairman, I want to once again apologize.
This is my third or fourth--I can't remember--hearing today, so
I may start talking about a subject that is not even relevant
to this hearing because of another committee. If I do, would
you kind of hit me in the arm?
Mr. Ackerman. We have never done that before.
Mr. Burton. I am going to submit my statement for the
record so we can get to the witness.
But I would like to just say, Mr. Chairman, that there are
a number of resolutions that we have talked about that have
been supported and sponsored by Mr. Bilirakis, Mr. Crowley, Mr.
Wolf and myself that deal with religious freedom and
understanding in the Middle East, and I was hoping we might be
able to talk about those or have a markup today. But since we
haven't been able to, would it be possible for us to maybe take
a hard look at those down the road?
Mr. Ackerman. We will be taking a look at it.
Mr. Burton. Well, if you could, I would appreciate it.
I yield back, and just submit my statement for the record.
Mr. Ackerman. I thank the distinguished gentleman.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Burton
follows:]Burton statement deg.
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Mr. Ackerman. It is now my pleasure to introduce the new
assistant secretary of state for Democracy, Human Rights and
Labor, Mr. Michael H. Posner. We are delighted to have him here
with us today.
Secretary Posner may be new to the subcommittee, but he has
a long and distinguished history when it comes to promoting
human rights. Prior to being confirmed as assistant secretary
in September 2009, Mr. Posner was the executive director and
then president of Human Rights First. During his tenure at
Human Rights First, the organization was at the very forefront
of U.S. and international efforts to enhance refugee
protections, to demand accountability for crimes against
humanity, and to combat all forms of illicit discrimination.
Secretary Posner is probably best known for his effort to
reintegrate human rights principles into even the most
sensitive parts of the American national security efforts.
Mr. Secretary, without objection, your full written
statement will be entered into the record, and I would ask you
to summarize your testimony so that we could then move directly
to questions.
You may begin as you will.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE MICHAEL H. POSNER, ASSISTANT
SECRETARY, BUREAU OF DEMOCRACY, HUMAN RIGHTS, AND LABOR, U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Mr. Posner. Thank you. Chairman Ackerman and members of the
subcommittee, it is an honor to be here today to discuss this
important issue. In addition to my written statement, I would
like to ask that the International Religious Freedom Report's
introduction and executive summary be entered into the record.
Mr. Ackerman. Without objection.
Mr. Posner. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman, you mentioned the universal application of
human rights standards, and that is, in fact, one of the
cornerstones of the Obama administration's approach to these
issues, very much in the spirit of Jefferson. We believe that
there are international and know that there are international
standards that allow for free expression of religion, and allow
people to choose and practice their religion, and that there be
a tolerance of differences.
We also are very much committed to what we are calling
principled engagement. President Obama's important speech in
Cairo in June of this year set the tone for that, and he spoke
about the importance of religious tolerance and religious
freedom. He said people in every country should be free to
choose and live their faith based on the persuasion of the mind
and the heart and the soul. This tolerance is essential for
religion to thrive.
A third element of what we are trying to do is to support
broader civil society and allow civil society to flourish in
countries around the world, including religious minorities.
Sadly, in the Middle East region, as you have indicated, as all
of you have indicated, there are a range of very troubling
problems. I just want to highlight very quickly three
countries, and then we can open up to questions.
The first is Iran. Congresswoman Jackson Lee made reference
to it. It is one of two countries in the region that are
designated countries of particular concern, and has been for
some time. And, as she said, there is a much broader pattern of
disrespect for human rights in Iran, intensified after the
election with the crushing of demonstrations, imprisonment of
people, detention and mistreatment.
But the respect for religious freedom in Iran is also a
serious problem, the disrespect, and it continues to
deteriorate. The government's rhetoric and actions against all
non-Shia religious groups, particularly the Baha'i, the Sufi,
evangelical Christians and Jews, is something that simply can't
be tolerated. We continue to receive reports of imprisonment,
harassment, intimidation and discrimination based on religious
beliefs.
One case in particular that I would mention is the case of
seven Baha'i leaders who were detained between March and May
2008. They weren't charged for 9 months, at which point they
were charged with security offenses, including spying for
Israel. In February of this year, a spokesman for the judiciary
said that in addition to espionage, they also are going to be
charged with ``spreading corruption on Earth,'' which is a
crime punishable by death. The Baha'i community in particular
has really been targeted in Iran.
I will just say finally with respect to Iran that either
today or tomorrow the U.N. General Assembly is going to
consider a resolution on human rights in Iran, which has, more
than it has ever had in the past, reference to and expression
of concern about the denial of religious freedom to the Baha'i,
Sufi and others. We are very much supporting that, and we are
at this point cautiously hopeful that that resolution will be
adopted, as it has been in the last several years.
You might ask, why do we spend the time and energy doing
it? We do it because it is a signal to democratic forces in
Iran that the world is watching, and we know what is happening.
It is a piece of solidarity.
The second country that I will mention very briefly is
Saudi Arabia, which is also a country of particular concern for
what we call systematic, ongoing egregious violations of
religious freedom. Freedom of religion is not recognized or
protected, and for non-Muslims, there is not even the ability
to practice their religion in public. Even Saudi Shia face
significant religious discrimination, which I would be glad to
go into if people want to discuss it further.
But it is the case that we continue to follow very closely
a very, very restrictive regime there and believe that much
work needs to be done. And Members of Congress have been
helpful in that regard by constantly reminding us of the
seriousness of the situation.
The third and last country that I will mention, again very
briefly, is Egypt. It is a place where actual respect for
religious freedom has declined in the last 3 years. And in
particular I want to raise our concerns about the government's
inaction, or insufficient action, in protecting the Coptic
Christian population of Egypt. There are attacks against that
population, and the government continues to try to avoid any
legal accountability for the perpetrators of those attacks.
An example is the assault on the Abu Fana Monastery in
2008. Two Coptic brothers were arrested in connection with that
bombing. They were held for 14 months. They were finally
released, but their release was conditioned on an agreement
with the government that the monastery drop criminal charges
against those who actually perpetrated the attack. That lack of
accountability we think actually perpetuates more violence and
attacks against the Coptic community.
The last thing with respect to Egypt is the unified law. We
are particularly concerned about the lack of attention to
passing that law, which would treat all religious groups
equally with regard to requirements for obtaining building
permits to construct or repair worship facilities. And the
effect of not having that law and existing laws on the books is
that religious groups, including the Coptic Christian
community, are often precluded from building houses of worship
or repairing them.
So these are practical things we believe can and should be
done in all of these places.
With that I want to stop and just take your questions.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Ackerman. Thank you very much, Mr. Secretary.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Posner
follows:]Michael Posner deg.
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Mr. Ackerman. Let me ask a general question. How do we
engage those countries in the region on this issue, countries
that are our friends or our allies or who are helpful to us?
Mr. Posner. We are, Congressman, engaging with these
countries in a range of ways. We can't treat all of these
countries in the same way, given the nature of the
relationship. We don't have a relationship with the Iranian
Government, for example. There is a long list of things I would
love to be able to push----
Mr. Ackerman. I wasn't exactly counting them as our
friends.
Mr. Posner. That is right.
I think with the two other countries I mentioned, I
mentioned them particularly because they are countries that we
have a close relationship with, and I think it is particularly
incumbent on us in places like Saudi Arabia and Egypt to be
raising these and related issues constantly.
Mr. Ackerman. It was basically a ``how'' question. How do
we do it?
Mr. Posner. Well, I think we do it on several levels. At
the 30,000-feet level, the President's speech in June set a
very positive tone. It was a speech of engagement, but at the
same time a speech that recognized the importance of these
issues.
We are now involved with Egypt in a set of discussions, a
set of bilateral discussions, that will include these issues.
And that is part of my job is to make sure that these issues
are getting raised. I plan to visit Egypt in the near future.
We have a dialogue scheduled for mid-December with the
Egyptians. It is critical that these issues be on the agenda
and that we keep raising them and keep, again, reaching out to
the religious community--in the case of Egypt the Coptic
community in the case of Saudi Arabia the Shia community--to
make sure that we are highlighting the importance we place on
these subjects.
We need to keep--it shouldn't be just me or the Human
Rights Bureau that is saying it to them. This needs to be done
across the government. Again, the interest that Congress shows
reinforces that commitment and allows us to do this in the best
way possible.
Mr. Ackerman. A lot of that does go on with respect to the
legislative branch. We have Members, besides all of our general
interests, who have specific and keen interests in specific
minorities, and many in all minorities, and their ability to
practice their rights, including freedom of religion high among
them, in these various places in the Middle East.
On the level of the administration, besides the necessary
hand-holding, for lack of a better word, with those communities
that need the assurances and bolstering up that we in the world
are watching, is this brought up in any other way besides
through your position? You just mentioned it should be through
others as well. Do we seek--and I am talking about with our
friends now. It is easy to beat up on our enemies because we
don't have to be as sensitive sometimes, at least we think
that, in the way that we cudgel them. But is there or should
there be conditionality on the things that they expect from us?
When we talk about those within the defense wing of our
administration, should they be bringing this up? When we talk
about trade issues, should we be bringing that up? When we talk
about even humanitarian or other kinds of aid, should we be
bringing it up? And then after you say yes to all of that, I
don't want to preempt you, the real question is are we bringing
it up, and when was the last time we did?
Mr. Posner. Yes. Again, I think there is a larger question
of the relationship between a whole range of human rights
issues and conditionality of aid, and it will depend on each
situation.
I would say both on a bilateral basis and a multilateral
basis we can and should be doing more. We have, for example--
again focusing on Egypt, we have a very strong relationship
with the Government of Egypt, and there is a long list of
things that I would like to see us raise, and I will be raising
with them. But it has to be raised across the board.
Mr. Ackerman. Yes. But specifically, it should be, it must
be, it ought to be, it needs to be; my question is, is it
being? Has it been? When Egypt comes to us and says they need,
legitimately we will stipulate, certain types of military
equipment or defense things, or Saudi Arabia needs some
information, or ``pick your country'' does--and this is outside
of your shop, but you know it needs to be done because you
brought it up, and we know it has to be brought up, because we
bring it up on all levels that we engage, at least most serious
Members of Congress that I know--is it being brought up? Is
this an issue for the Secretary of Defense, or are the other
issues too important to dull his other messages with this
goody-goody stuff?
Mr. Posner. Mr. Chairman, this is essentially the
centerpiece of what I am committed to do in this job. I have
been on the job 2 months, and I am convinced that if we don't
have an integrated approach to human rights issues throughout
different agencies, we are not going to be effective on these
things.
Has it been done? It has been done episodically in various
ways in various places. Could it be done more? Yes. Should it
be done more? Yes. Am I committed to trying to make that
happen? Yes. Am I going to succeed? I don't know.
But I can say to you, and I will make this commitment, that
in dealing with countries that are our closest allies, we ought
to be using every opportunity we can and across the government
to make sure that these central issues which matter so much to
us in our own society are registered as issues of concern. It
is precisely either the Trade Representative or the Defense
Department that ought to be raising these issues.
Mr. Ackerman. I have overextended my time, and I will
yield--my colleague is indicating that--I will extend whatever
time you need.
Mr. Burton. I never worry about you overextending your
time, Mr. Chairman. You are my buddy, and you can have another
5 seconds if you like.
Mr. Ackerman. It is good to have buddies like that.
I hear what you are saying, and your appreciation and
effort on the issue is duly noted historically through even the
short tenure that you have had on your current job. We cannot
hold you responsible for other agencies of the executive
branch, either to know what they are doing or to be responsible
for them not doing it. But would it be inappropriate for you to
send a memo to the secretary of this and that, whatever
``that'' and ``this'' is, to suggest to them that these issues
are of great overriding national concern on a humanitarian
basis, and it is really what America is all about, and ask them
to bring it up? Because we do badger them from time to time,
but I think somebody from inside that shop might lend a little
bit of additional suasion.
Mr. Posner. It took me 6 or 7 months to get through the
confirmation process. And part of what I did was to reach out
to other agencies in just the way you are describing to get a
better sense of how I can communicate more regularly with both
the economic and trade people, as well as people in Defense and
Justice, et cetera. So I very much take to heart what you have
just said, and it is something that I intend to keep doing.
If I just say one thing on the multilateral side, too, if
you will just give me 1 second here. We have done two things.
Congressman Green mentioned the defamation of religion
resolution at the U.N., which we fought very hard against. I
think there are opportunities in the context of the U.N. and
other international organizations for us also to be raising
these concerns and enlisting our allies, European and other
allies, to join that fight.
It seems to me there is some combination of trying to
figure affirmative ways to work with governments, in this
respect Egypt, on a resolution on freedom of expression that we
cosponsored at the Human Rights Council and got unanimous
support for. It gave us the ability to then go in and challenge
the overreaching and totally unacceptable defamation of
religion resolution which they and others have been driving.
Egypt and Pakistan drive that train. Those are both allies of
the United States, and I think we ought to be very mindful of
the fact that our close allies should not be fighting with us
about these very basic things at the United Nations. So that is
another piece of this which I am very keen that we bring in.
Susan Rice's shop is now engaged in those issues. Esther
Brimmer, who is the assistant secretary for international
organizations, is trying to broaden the discussion of this
beyond just the particulars to also find a way for us to be
pushing some of our allies to be stronger on some of these
things.
Mr. Ackerman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Burton.
Mr. Burton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I believe the secretary just said that interest that
Congress shows has an impact, and I realize that the State
Department going to these other Middle East countries--and I
presume that is what you will be doing, Mr. Secretary--has a
positive impact. But a resolution or resolutions passed by the
Congress talking about religious freedom and understanding, I
think, would be a real asset to our State Department people
that go over there.
Therefore, I would like to ask you one more time, Mr.
Chairman, to take a hard look at the bills that are cosponsored
on a bipartisan basis regarding religious freedom that have
been introduced and that I think would augment what the State
Department is trying to do. This is not a partisan issue. It is
a bipartisan issue.
I would also like to thank the chairman of the full
committee for moving the Iran sanctions bill out of our
committee in October, and I hope that we can get the other
relevant committees to sign off on that so we can get that bill
to the floor as quickly as possible. And with your tremendous
influence, I know you can help us get that done. You are from
New York. You can get all kinds of things done. You even got
the Yankees to win the World Series.
Mr. Ackerman. I was no help to the Mets.
Mr. Burton. Well, that is true, too.
I do want to talk about one serious thing, and that is the
Saudi Arabians. The President, when he was over there, he bowed
to the Saudi King, and he showed deference. Many of us were
concerned about that. But, nevertheless, it was his way of
showing, I guess, respect to the Saudi King.
But I went over to Saudi Arabia with a CODEL, a
congressional delegation, a few years ago, and I think you are
probably aware of that, Mr. Ambassador. The reason I went over
there was we had a number of women who had married Saudi young
men when they were in college or they had met them someplace,
and they went over there full of love and understanding, and
they end up with their children sleeping on the kitchen floor
and living a life that was hellacious, to say the least. We
even had one woman who got away from her husband, took her
children to the U.S. Embassy, and our charge, I believe it
was--I don't think it was the Ambassador, but the charge at
that time told the Marine guards to take her and her children
to the front of the embassy gates and return her to her
husband. And Lord only knows what happened to that woman.
I had other women come up to me that were Americans that
said, do anything you can to get us out of here, and they told
me about their husbands threatening to carve them up with
knives and kill them, and women are treated without almost any
respect. So we are talking today about religious freedom, but
also human rights.
I think since the Saudis do so much business with us in the
area of oil and other trade, I think it is important that we
continue to pressure them to show human rights and freedom to
American citizens. These are not people that are not citizens;
American citizens that are being held against their will over
there, women and their children, and many of their children are
being forced into marriage when they are 12 years old, and they
are completely brainwashed.
I had a woman call me just the other day who had been over
there. I met with her when I was in Saudi Arabia. She went over
there to try to get her daughter out, and the religious police
came in. And because her head was not properly covered--and I
was talking to her--they were going to arrest her or whip her
across the ankles or something. When they found out I was a
Congressman and didn't mind going to jail, they rescinded their
position.
So, I think it is important, since you are going to be over
there and you will be working with our Ambassador, that we
continue to press them for more equal and free rights for women
over there and the children. The stories, I had women come to
meet with me who said if their husband knew they were talking
to us, they would kill them, and they could probably get away
with it because of the sharia law or the law they have. I never
can pronounce that right, sharia law.
So we, as a free country that has trade and diplomatic
relations with Saudi Arabia, need to do everything we can to
help those American citizens, women and children, have their
rights respected. I know this is a tough issue, but we need to
have continual pressure. And I hope when you meet with our
ambassador over there, you will convey my concern and other
Members' concerns that have concerns here in the Congress of
the United States.
With that, Mr. Chairman, I don't think I have any questions
of the secretary. I think he has been there 2 months. I wish
him well.
If we can do anything to work with you to help solve these
religious freedom issues as well as the human rights issues
over there, give us a call. We would love to work with you.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Ackerman. Did you want to respond? There was no
question asked.
Mr. Posner. No. I would only say on the cases that you
raised, it is, in fact, much easier for us to intervene when
U.S. citizens are involved. So if cases like that come to your
attention now, it would really be helpful for me if you would
send them my way so that I am aware. I am sure the embassy gets
them, but it would also be helpful, if they come to your
attention, that I see them. I will convey your concerns, and I
agree with them.
Mr. Ackerman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Costa.
Mr. Costa. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Posner, I realize you have been on the job for a couple
months, but I would like to get a better idea of how your
Bureau of Democracy and Human Rights and Labor is set up; how
you are going to make changes, if any, in terms of your
operation; and how you are going to work in conjunction with
obviously the Secretary of State and the President as you
pursue efforts to expand democratic institutions and focus on
human rights as well as the recognition of oppression when we
see it and religious freedoms as we know them to be, which
clearly is different in the part of the world we are talking
about; i.e., the Middle East.
First of all, tell me what are the tools and leverage that
your Bureau has to deal, to provide pressure or leverage. How
would you best describe them, quickly?
Mr. Posner. Really three things. One, we are involved in
the policymaking process. I think we need to be more involved
in that within the State Department and within the government.
Mr. Costa. You are going to get more involved in that
policymaking process.
Number two?
Mr. Posner. Number two, we are involved in reporting. We do
the annual Country Reports on Human Rights and Religious
Freedom, et cetera. But we lay the factual predicate for the
government to act. Those reports have taken on a life of their
own. We need to do those well. We need to disseminate them more
aggressively.
Mr. Costa. Are those reports confirmed? Are they utilized
by any credible world agencies?
Mr. Posner. They are. The Country Reports on Human Rights
and the Religious Freedom Report are probably the most
comprehensive reports produced by anybody in the world. The
U.N., I met today with nine European governments. They use them
all the time.
Mr. Costa. What is number three?
Mr. Posner. The third issue, the third part of our
operation is really a grantmaking program site. We have about
$80 million that is available for small grants to promote human
rights and democracy. So we are able to get in and provide
direct support.
Mr. Costa. To deal with the countries directly that you are
involved with in helping democratic institutions?
Mr. Posner. We generally make grants to groups like
National Democratic Institute or Freedom House or the
International Republican Institute, and they make grants in
conjunction----
Mr. Costa. Other organizations, like the National
Conference of State Legislatures, where emerging democracies
are taking place? I know we participated in that in the past.
Mr. Posner. Correct.
Mr. Costa. So then the second tool that you have, you issue
these reports. Then the next report that will be coming out on
the Middle East of countries that are allies and countries that
are foes, countries like Jordan and Egypt, as you noted, and
Iraq, that obviously we have been heavily involved in. We will
have a report on the level of not only human rights issues and
potential violations, but religious freedoms.
Do you give criterias deg. of grades? I have been
familiar with the religious minorities, for example, that
existed in Iraq and some of the troubles they are having and
some of the assassinations that have taken place. You are going
to rate those?
Mr. Posner. Actually the two reports that you reference are
a bit different. One of the things we are trying to do is
reconcile everything.
The Report on Religious Freedom that just came out last
month is a predicate for the Secretary, for the State
Department making designations of countries of particular
concern, and that is done on a----
Mr. Costa. Whether they be friend or foe alike?
Mr. Posner. Yes. So there are seven or eight countries that
fall into that category, including in this region Saudi Arabia
and Iran. And that process is ongoing right now, and there are
likely to be decisions made in the next few months on that.
Mr. Costa. So you are going to establish some new
milestones that this subcommittee and others will be aware of
as to when the new published reports will come out?
Mr. Posner. The report is already out. Those designations
will happen in the next few months. The broader Human Rights
Report is just a factual summary.
Mr. Costa. My final question before my time runs out is
many of us have been concerned as it relates to religious
freedoms and human rights the sort of curriculum we see taking
place, whether it is out of Hamas in Palestine or whether it is
in schools in Saudi Arabia. There have been commitments by
governments, those that are friends of ours, that they are
going to make changes in those curriculums that preach jihad,
that preach religious hatred in essence. And what we find, or
what I have found, to be the case is that oftentimes whatever
comments or edicts have been issued by the leadership of those
governments have fallen short from what has taken place or
changed in the actual schools themselves; i.e., the curriculum.
Are you going to be involved in this? Are you going to do
something about this?
Mr. Posner. Yes. In fact, this subcommittee and Members of
Congress have for several years raised and we have taken on
board an ongoing review process in particular of the Saudi
textbooks. My predecessors, and I give them much credit for
this, have entered into an ongoing dialogue with the Saudis
about this particular subject, and some progress has been made.
But I am very mindful of this, and I think we need to be
constantly vigilant both in terms of the content and
dissemination of these materials. It is clearly an important
issue.
Mr. Costa. Well, as the chairman is fond of his home in New
York and the great city that provides Broadway, I am very fond
of that great musical from South Pacific, the song that talks
about you have to teach to hate. And I think the teaching of
hatred starts in the early years with these children, and I
think that is a quick way to maybe begin to try to turn the
table.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ackerman. Thank you, Mr. Costa.
Mr. Inglis.
Mr. Inglis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Secretary, we, I think, are all in agreement that we
want to export from our country the principles of political and
religious freedom. What do you think is the best means of doing
that? How do we most effectively export the principles of
political and religious freedom?
Mr. Posner. You know, I guess what I would say is, going
back to the chairman's opening comments, I think the way in
which we do this is as important as the content, and one of the
things that we have going for us is that we are not talking
just about exporting a kind of American approach. We are
talking about what really are universal legal standards, legal
norms that have been developed over the last 60 years, to which
a great majority of countries in the world at least profess on
paper to believe are right.
So, we are not coming in to simply say, here is the
American model; do it. We are saying, hey, look at the world.
This is the new paradigm. Post-World War II, the Universal
Declaration of Human Rights and a range of treaties have set
forth some basic premises. It is a floor, not a ceiling. Every
government ought to be doing it. You ought to be doing it just
like your neighbor is doing it or just like the country down
the street.
I think when we talk about principled engagement, that is
what we are talking about. We ought to be one voice, a loud
voice, but a loud voice that is part of a chorus that is
basically saying if you want to be recognized in the world, if
you want to trade, if you want to compete, if you want to live
in harmony, this is what the world is now expecting.
I think it is a long process. I don't promise that
overnight that is going to work. But our approach is very much
to say let us try to build some momentum by getting multiple
voices and being part of that process to really pushing for
these things based on universal standards.
Mr. Inglis. Sometimes it involves support of organizations
in countries that are doing those things or subscribe to those
views. How do we support those effectively without tainting
them with the American influence that causes them to be suspect
in that country?
Mr. Posner. That is a good question, and I think there is
sort of a delicate balance between, as you say, being
supportive without tainting people. But I think there are at
least three things we can do.
One is we can be very vigilant when the defenders of
freedom or religious community get in trouble. We can be a
lifeline of protection. It also always is valuable for us to
speak out. The examples that come across my desk all the time
are there of individuals on whose behalf we have registered our
concerns, and governments take notice of that. So that is point
one.
The second thing is that I think we can help amplify their
voices. I said earlier that I believe strongly that change
occurs from within societies. It is very hard to force it from
outside. But there is now a very active debate about human
rights and a deep desire within every society in the world to
begin to take greater responsibility for promoting a more open
and democratic way of doing things.
We ought to be identifying those people and helping them to
amplify their voices. We have a new set of communication tools
with the Internet. We ought to be doing everything in our power
to make sure that those messages get heard.
And then the third thing, and, again, this is on a country
or case-by-case basis, there are moments where we can provide
direct financial and material technical support. And where
people desire it, we ought to be thinking creatively about how
do we push the edge of what is possible to promote free media,
to promote civil society, human rights and other organizations,
and actually give them support to do the work?
Mr. Inglis. Some of us have been concerned that the
administration may be backing away from those folks in Iran who
would be promoting the values that we are discussing here. Do
you have any comment on that?
Mr. Posner. Yes. Again, I don't accept that. In the last
week, the amount of energy that the U.S. Government has devoted
to getting a favorable result on a very strong resolution at
the U.N. General Assembly that is going to be voted on today or
tomorrow on Iran is a testament to the fact that people are
really paying attention to this. It is really important that we
be out there publicly. It is important to the people of Iran
that they know that we are out there publicly.
This resolution at the General Assembly, which I am
cautiously optimistic is going to pass, sends a very strong
signal, and we are very much in the lead in trying to make sure
that resolution gets a favorable outcome.
We have to keep pushing on these things. We have concerns
about nuclear programs and whatever else, but these issues are
absolutely essential, especially in the aftermath of the
violent attacks on civil society after the elections. We have
to redouble our efforts.
Mr. Inglis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Ackerman. Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you about a
minority that is very often overlooked in the Middle East, and
I am talking specifically about Palestinian Christians, a group
that has been under a lot of pressure for a long period of
time, very oft ignored by the rest of the world, even the human
rights and freedom of religion advocates from all over,
including our own country.
It seems if you look at the statistics and the numbers, the
Palestinian Christian community is being diminished in the land
of Christianity, in the birthplace of Christianity, almost like
no other group, and no other group of numbers have been ravaged
in a long period of time.
I know that as the holiday season approaches and Christmas
nears, it becomes a great place for Christians to visit, as
well as others, but a very difficult place for Christians to
live. It would be almost sinful, if I can use that word in a
political context, for the birthplace of Christianity to be
devoid of Christians, which is basically what is happening.
Almost every Palestinian Christian that I know, if they
could, would get a passport, or is trying to get a passport, if
not for themselves, for their children and their families, to
be able to get out. And that is evidenced all over the world,
anywhere they could go to in the free world. And very few
people will have them to begin with.
What do we do about that, besides using them as a great
photo opportunity on December 25th?
Mr. Posner. It is, as you say, a problem, and a growing
problem. The numbers have diminished. I have met with
representatives. Again, in my previous NGO life, I visited
Nazareth, and I visited Bethlehem, and I talked with leaders of
those communities, and they are shrinking communities. As you
say, there is no doubt about that.
I think this is part of a broader discussion about what we
can and should be doing with the Government of Israel as a
friend, but as a friend that is willing to talk directly about
issues that really are essentially confidence-building
measures.
These are issues that haven't gotten the attention, I agree
with you----
Mr. Ackerman. Are you saying it is an Israeli problem and
not a Muslim problem?
Mr. Posner. Well, I think it is both. There are elements of
it that are certainly----
Mr. Ackerman. I have spoken to any number, and when they
speak to you with a great deal of confidence, any of them who
could have an opportunity to live in Israel within the 1948
borders or the 1967 borders or any other borders would seize
the opportunity. And certainly the income level and opportunity
level of Palestinian Christians within Israel is so much higher
not just in dollars, but by multiples and factors than they are
in anyplace that they are living right now within the cities
and towns that you have just cited, as well as within the
entire rest of the Arab world.
Mr. Posner. All of what you just said is right, and there
are obviously huge tensions, interreligious tensions within the
Palestinian community. That is a piece of it we have to be
attentive to. And there is also a piece of it that I think the
Government of Israel bears responsibility for. And on both
sides, I think as part of a broader----
Mr. Ackerman. Are you talking about the general economy in
the region?
Mr. Posner. Yes, and provisions that discriminate on the
basis of prior military service and the like. I mean, there are
the income levels----
Mr. Ackerman. I am not sure what you are talking about.
Israel has universal military service for all of its citizens.
Any Palestinian, Christian or Muslim living within Israel who
is an Israeli citizen----
Mr. Posner. Palestinians don't routinely serve in the
military.
Mr. Ackerman. They do not.
Mr. Posner. No. So I guess the point for me----
Mr. Ackerman. Not traditionally. Traditionally they don't.
Mr. Posner. Not traditionally. So I view this as an
opportunity. There are so many places. It is so easy to----
Mr. Ackerman. But I don't think the problem of the
Christian community is that they thirst to serve in the Israeli
military and they are not able to. That is not what I am
talking about. If you think that is the benefit that I am
talking about, then we are talking different languages.
Mr. Posner. No. What I am saying is there are certain
social services and social benefits that are tied to military
service. If you look at the----
Mr. Ackerman. I am talking about the huge populations
within the Christian Palestinian community, and as I understand
it, we are not talking about Israeli communities and
territories. We are talking about Palestinian-controlled
territories, although under Israeli administration. This is not
in Israel proper.
Mr. Posner. We are having two different discussions here.
Mr. Ackerman. We sure are.
Mr. Posner. One, we have to talk about the situation of
Palestinians that are living within the green line, within
Israel.
Mr. Ackerman. I am talking about Christians.
Mr. Posner. That is right. Palestinian Christians living
within Israel is one subject, and then a second subject----
Mr. Ackerman. Which communities are you talking about?
Mr. Posner. I am talking about the first. And with respect
to the Palestinians----
Mr. Ackerman. No, which neighborhoods?
Mr. Posner. With respect to Palestinians, let me start
where you are focused.
Mr. Ackerman. Are you talking about Bethlehem? Is that in
Israel?
Mr. Posner. No, Bethlehem is in the West Bank.
Mr. Ackerman. That is what I am talking about. People
living in Bethlehem don't serve in the Israeli Army. Their
problems are with the exercise of their religious freedom.
Those, for the most part, are within the communities,
Bethlehem, Nazareth. Those are the bulk of them. Those are
where the populations have been depleted.
Mr. Posner. We agree that there needs to be more attention
to this, and----
Mr. Ackerman. Look, I am all for solving the Israeli,
Palestinian, Arab, Jewish, whatever you want problem, but I am
talking about the specific problems, religious problems, that
the Christians are facing.
Mr. Posner. And we are in the middle of a discussion, a
range of discussions, with the Palestinian Authority, and the
Palestinian Authority ought to be pushed as hard as possible to
do what they can, given their authority over the population
there. I totally agree with that.
Mr. Ackerman. Okay. I think that is part of the problem,
why this problem hasn't been addressed. It is being looked at
as part of the Israel-Palestinian conflict. And what I am
talking about is the free exercise of the Christian religion
within Christian towns and villages. I am not talking about the
overall construct, but I am talking about who is putting down
what pressure on their lives as a specific community. And we
could argue Israel's role in the West Bank or anyplace else,
but I am talking about Christian holy sites. Most of that is
not a conflict with Israel at all.
Mr. Posner. I agree with you.
Mr. Ackerman. The Christian community is not living under
Israel's rules; they are living under Palestinian Authority's
rules and regulations and the ability to exercise control over
their own religious sites. Most don't control their own
religious sites. That is not Israel, that is the Palestinian
Authority.
Mr. Posner. And we should be raising that.
Mr. Ackerman. And we should, before that community
disappears.
Mr. Secretary, you have been very kind, and I appreciate
the fact that you and we had to wait while another subcommittee
was using the room, getting us off to a late start. But you
have answered all of our questions and concerns and have been a
great help to the deliberations of this subcommittee.
We stand adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 3:30 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]
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