Homeland Security

[107 Senate Committee Prints]
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[DOCID: f:83872.wais]
                                                         S. Prt. 107-84
                    EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE
                       PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
                     INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
                        ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
=======================================================================
                                VOLUME 4
                               __________
                         EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
                             FIRST SESSION
                                  1953
                        MADE PUBLIC JANUARY 2003
      Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs
                                ______
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                   COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
                     107th Congress, Second Session
               JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan                 FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii              TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey     GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia                 THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota               JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
                                     PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
           Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
              Richard A. Hertling, Minority Staff Director
                     Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
                                 ------                                
                PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
                     CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii,             SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois          TED STEVENS, Alaska
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey     GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia                 THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware           ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota               JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
                                     PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
            Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
                 Kim Corthell, Minority Staff Director
                     Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk
                   COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
                      83rd Congress, First Session
                JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota          JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine          HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho             HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois   JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland       STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan          ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
                   Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
                    Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
                                 ------                                
                PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
                JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota          JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas \1\
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois   HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington \1\
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan          STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri \1\
                       Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
                  Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
                      Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
                           assistant counsels
Robert F. Kennedy                                    Donald A. Surine
Thomas W. La Venia                                   Jerome S. Adlerman
Donald F. O'Donnell                                  C. George Anastos
Daniel G. Buckley
                             investigators
                           Robert J. McElroy
Herbert S. Hawkins                                   James N. Juliana
                   G. David Schine, Chief Consultant
               Karl H. W. Baarslag, Director of Research
               Carmine S. Bellino, Consulting Accountant
                   La Vern J. Duffy, Staff Assistant
----------
  \1\ The Democratic members were absent from the subcommittee from 
July 10, 1953 to January 25, 1954.
                            C O N T E N T S
                              ----------                              
                                                                   Page
                                Volume 4
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 23..........  2729
    Testimony of Sidney Glassman; David Ayman; Lawrence Friedman; 
      Elba Chase Nelson; Herbert S. Bennett; Joseph H. Percoff; 
      Lawrence Aguimbau; and Perry Seay.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 26..........  2777
    Statements of Benjamin Zuckerman; Hans Inslerman; Thomas K. 
      Cookson; Doris Seifert; Lafayette Pope; Ralph Iannarone; 
      Saul Finkelstein; Abraham Lepato; Irving Rosenheim; and 
      Richard Jones, Jr.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 27..........  2815
    Statements of Edward Brody; Max Katz; Henry Jasik; Capt. 
      Benjamin Sheehan; Russell Gaylord Ranney; Susan Moon; Peter 
      Rosmovsky; and Sarah Omanson.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 30..........  2851
    Statements of Harold Ducore; Stanley R. Rich; Nathan Sussman; 
      Louis Leo Kaplan; Carl Greenblum; Sherrod East; Jacob 
      Kaplan; James P. Scott; Bernard Lee; and Melvin M. Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 2..........  2893
    Statements of William Johnstone Jones; Murray Narell; Samuel 
      Sack; Joseph Bert; Raymond Delcamp; Leo Fary; and Irving 
      Stokes.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 3..........  2919
    Testimony of Abraham Chasanow; Joseph H. Percoff; Solomon 
      Greenberg; Isadore Solomon; William Saltzman; and Samuel 
      Sack.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 4..........  2953
    Testimony of Victor Rabinowitz; Wendell Furry; Diana Wolman; 
      Abraham Brothman; Norman Gaboriault; Harvey Sachs; Sylvia 
      Berke; and Benjamin Wolman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 5..........  3033
    Testimony of Harry Hyman; Vivian Glassman Pataki; Gunnar 
      Boye; Alexander Hindin; Samuel Paul Gisser; Stanley 
      Berinsky; Ralph Schutz; and Henry Shoiket.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 16.........  3083
    Testimony of Rear Admiral Edward Culligan Forsyth; Samuel 
      Snyder; Ernest Pataki; Albert Socol; Joseph K. Crevisky; 
      Ignatius Giardina; and Leon Schnee.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 17.........  3125
    Testimony of James Weinstein; Harry Grundfest; Harry 
      Pastorinsky; Emery Pataki; and Charles Jassik.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 25.........  3151
    Testimony of Morris Savitt; Albert Fischler; James J. Matles; 
      Bertha Singer; and Terry Rosenbaum.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10.........  3171
    Testimony of Michael Sidorovich; and Ann Sidorovich.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10.........  3175
    Statement of Samuel Levine.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 14.........  3199
    Testimony of Albert Shadowitz; Pvt. David Linfield; Shirley 
      Shapiro; and Sidney Stolberg.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 15.........  3221
    Testimony of Ezekiel Heyman; Lester Ackerman; Sigmond Berger; 
      Ruth Levine; Bennett Davies; John D. Saunders; Norman 
      Spiro; Carter Lemuel Burkes; John R. Simkovich; Linda 
      Gottfried; Joseph Paul Komar; John Anthony DeLuca; and Sam 
      Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 16.........  3273
    Testimony of Wilbur LePage; Martin Levine; John Schickler; 
      David Lichter; Albert Burrows; Seymour Butensky; and 
      Kenneth John Way.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 17.........  3309
    Statements of Irving Israel Galex; Harry Lipson; Seymour 
      Janowsky; Harry M. Nachmais; Curtis Quinten Murphy; Martin 
      Schmidt; and David Holtzman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 18.........  3349
    Statements of Joseph John Oliveri; Philip Joseph Shapiro; 
      Samuel Martin Segner; Joseph Linton Layne; and Harry 
      William Levitties.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, 
  October 19.....................................................  3403
    Testimony of William H. Taylor; and Alvin W. Hall.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, 
  October 21.....................................................  3425
    Testimony of Elizabeth Bentley.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, November 
  10.............................................................  3431
    Statement of Walter F. Frese.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry, 
  November 12....................................................  3445
    Testimony of Jean A. Arsenault; Sidney Friedlander; Theresa 
      Mary Chiaro; Albert J. Bottisti; Anna Jegabbi; Emma 
      Elizabeth Drake; Henry Daniel Hughes; Abden Francisco; 
      Joseph Arthur Gebhardt; Emanuel Fernandez; Robert Pierson 
      Northrup; Lawrence Leo Gebo; William J. Mastriani; Gordon 
      Belgrave; Arthur Lee Owens; John Sardella; and Rudolph 
      Rissland.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry, 
  November 13....................................................  3545
    Testimony of Lillian Krummel; Dewey Franklin Brashear; Arthur 
      George; Higeno Hermida; Paul F. Hacko; Alex Henry Klein; 
      Harold S. Rollins; and John Starling Brooks.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry, 
  November 18....................................................  3585
    Testimony of Karl T. Mabbskka; James John Walsh; Nathaniel 
      Mills; Robert Goodwin; Henry Canning Archdeacon; Donald 
      Herbert Morrill; Francis F. Peacock; William Richmond 
      Wilder; Donald R. Finlayson; Theodore Pappas; George Homes; 
      Alexander Gregory; Witoutos S. Bolys; Benjamin Alfred; and 
      Witulad Pierarski.
Transfer of the Ship ``Greater Buffalo,'' December 8.............  3607
    Testimony of Paul D. Page, Jr.; and George J. Kolowich.
Personnel Practices in Government--Case of Telford Taylor, 
  December 8.....................................................  3637
    Testimony of Philip Young.
              ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
    [Editor's note.--Sidney Glassman testified in public 
session on December 16, 1953. Joseph H. Percoff (1908-1986) and 
Louise Sarant (1923-1997) testified in public on December 11. 
David Ayman (1907-1999), Lawrence Friedman, Elba Chase Nelson 
(1889-1967), Herbert S. Bennett, Norman Levinson (1912-1975), 
Lawrence Aguimbau, and Perry Seay did not testify in public.]
                              ----------                              
                        FRIDAY, OCTOBER 23, 1953
                               U.S. Senate,
    Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
                 of the Committee on Government Operations,
                                                      New York, NY.
    The subcommittee met at 10:30 a.m., pursuant to recess, in 
room 29, Federal Building, New York, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy 
(chairman) presiding.
    Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
    Present also: Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr, 
staff director; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel; Harold 
Rainville, administrative assistant to Senator Dirksen; and 
Robert Jones, research assistant to Senator Potter.
    Present also: John Adams, counselor to the Secretary of the 
Department of the Army; and Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton.
    The Chairman. Will you stand and be sworn? In this matter 
now in hearing before this committee, do you solemnly swear to 
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so 
help you God?
    Mr. Glassman. I do.
    The Chairman. Will you give the reporter your full name?
   TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GLASSMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
                       VICTOR ABRAMOWITZ)
    Mr. Glassman. Sidney Glassman.
    The Chairman. And how long since you worked in the Signal 
Corps Lab?
    Mr. Glassman. Excuse me. Where?
    The Chairman. How long since you worked for the Signal 
Corps?
    Mr. Glassman. For the Signal Corps?
    The Chairman. Yes.
    Mr. Glassman. I am sorry.
    The Chairman. Have you ever worked for the Signal Corps?
    Mr. Glassman. I worked for the Signal Corps Procurement 
District.
    The Chairman. When was that?
    Mr. Glassman. In 1942.
    The Chairman. You started in 1942?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right.
    The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder? I can not 
hear you.
    Mr. Glassman. I started in February 1942.
    The Chairman. And you worked from February '42 until when?
    Mr. Glassman. Until about October 1942.
    The Chairman. And then did you quit, or were you 
discharged?
    Mr. Glassman. I quit to go into the army.
    The Chairman. And what branch of the army were you in?
    Mr. Glassman. I was in the Signal Corps.
    The Chairman. In the Signal Corps in the army. And were you 
in as a civilian employee?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't quite understand.
    The Chairman. Were you a civilian, when you were in the 
army?
    Mr. Glassman. No. I was a member of the armed forces.
    The Chairman. What was your rank?
    Mr. Glassman. You mean my last rank, I presume?
    The Chairman. When you went in.
    Mr. Glassman. Sergeant. I was a sergeant when I was 
discharged.
    The Chairman. You went in as what?
    Mr. Glassman. As a private.
    The Chairman. You were discharged as a private?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes.
    The Chairman. And when were you discharged?
    Mr. Glassman. In December of 1944.
    The Chairman. Where were you stationed?
    Mr. Glassman. For most of my time, I was stationed in 
England, and the last part of my army career prior to the time 
I was wounded was in Normandy.
    The Chairman. And you were wounded in 1944, were you?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right, in July.
    The Chairman. In July. And you were discharged in December 
of '44?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right.
    The Chairman. An honorable discharge?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes, it was a CDD.
    The Chairman. Pardon?
    Mr. Glassman. A CDD.
    The Chairman. What is a CDD?
    Mr. Glassman. Because of my wounds.
    The Chairman. And then where did you go to work?
    Mr. Glassman. I went to school.
    The Chairman. Where did you go to school?
    Mr. Glassman. I went to school at Columbia University.
    The Chairman. Columbia. And what courses did you take 
there? What did you major in?
    Mr. Glassman. Economics and statistics.
    The Chairman. Economics and statistics. And when did you 
leave Columbia?
    Mr. Glassman. I left in about August of 1946, though I 
still took a course or two at night after that.
    The Chairman. Did you go back to work for the government 
then?
    Mr. Glassman. No, I did not. I worked for about a month 
during the summer for a professor, doing some statistical work 
for him. I think he was doing some labor statistics for the 
government.
    The Chairman. That was professor who?
    Mr. Glassman. His name was Hsu, I believe.
    The Chairman. How do you spell that?
    Mr. Glassman. H-s-u.
    The Chairman. What is his first name?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't recall. I think it was Francis.
    The Chairman. Was he Chinese?
    Mr. Glassman. I think so.
    The Chairman. He was Chinese?
    Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
    The Chairman. Was he a member of the Communist party?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis----
    The Chairman. Will you speak up a little louder?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the 
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
    The Chairman. Then was this professor doing work for the 
government?
    Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
    The Chairman. Do you know what branch of the government he 
was working for?
    Mr. Glassman. No. He was doing some labor work, labor 
research statistics, for something, but I don't recall exactly 
for what branch.
    The Chairman. And you worked for him for about one month, 
in 1946?
    Mr. Glassman. No, I think it was 1945.
    The Chairman. That is while you were still going to school?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right.
    The Chairman. What did you get paid for that work?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't recall the exact amount, but I think 
the rate was at a P-2 salary at that time.
    The Chairman. And after you left school, where did you go 
to work?
    Mr. Glassman. I went to work for the United Nations.
    The Chairman. And what branch, what department, what 
agency?
    Mr. Glassman. I was in economic affairs.
    The Chairman. Who recommended you for that job?
    Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
    The Chairman. Certainly.
    [Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
    Mr. Glassman. I don't know if I had any direct 
recommendations. I had a number of letters from various 
professors that one normally gets when you get out of school.
    The Chairman. What professors?
    Mr. Glassman. Professor Goodrich.
    The Chairman. He is from Columbia?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes. Professor Mills.
    The Chairman. Mills?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes. I think there was also one--I don't know 
whether he was a professor. Eastwood.
    The Chairman. Eastwood.
    Mr. Glassman. I don't recall any others.
    The Chairman. What was Goodrich's first name?
    Mr. Glassman. Carter, I believe.
    The Chairman. C-a-r-t-e-r?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes.
    The Chairman. And what was Mills' first name?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't know, I think it was F.
    The Chairman. And Eastwood? Where does he work?
    Mr. Glassman. He is at Columbia, too.
    The Chairman. He is a teacher?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes, I believe he is.
    The Chairman. You do not know his first name, do you?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't recall his first name.
    The Chairman. Now, was Goodrich known to you to be a member 
of the Communist party?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of the 
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
    The Chairman. How about Mills?
    Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
    The Chairman. How about Eastwood?
    Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
    The Chairman. Then how long did you work in the UN?
    Mr. Glassman. About six years.
    The Chairman. From '46 until when? '52?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes. I believe it was until '52.
    The Chairman. What time in '52 did you leave the UN?
    Mr. Glassman. I think it was in December.
    The Chairman. December of last year?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes.
    The Chairman. What salary were you getting in the UN?
    Mr. Glassman. In '52? I think it was about $8,500 gross.
    The Chairman. Was that tax-exempt?
    Mr. Glassman. No. Well, my net salary was around $6,000-
something, on which I paid taxes, and for which the UN 
reimbursed me.
    The Chairman. In other words, the UN paid you for whatever 
taxes you paid; is that right? So that when you arrive at a 
figure of $8,500, you take your $6,000 and add to that whatever 
they reimbursed you? Is that how you arrived at the figure of 
$8,500?
    Mr. Glassman. No, there was a UN tax assessment, that 
brought you down to $6,000.
    The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist party 
while you were in the Army Signal Corps?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of my 
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
    The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage while you were 
in the Army Signal Corps?
    Mr. Glassman. I was not.
    The Chairman. You were not engaged in any espionage?
    Mr. Glassman. I was not.
    The Chairman. Did you ever remove any classified material 
from the Army Signal Corps?
    Mr. Glassman. First of all, what do you mean by 
``classified material''?
    The Chairman. What do you think I mean? You have been in 
the Signal Corps handling it.
    Mr. Glassman. I never said that I handled any material. I 
don't know what you mean, but if you mean secret material----
    The Chairman. Then we will explain to you. Either secret, 
confidential, or restricted.
    Mr. Glassman. No, I don't think I ever did.
    The Chairman. You do not think you ever handled any 
classified material?
    Mr. Glassman. No.
    The Chairman. How about when you were preparing the 
material for the Chinese Communist professor? Did you handle 
classified material there?
    [Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
    Mr. Glassman. I never testified that anybody was a Chinese 
Communist professor.
    The Chairman. Well, let us drop the ``Communist'' and say: 
when you were working for the Chinese professor, Francis Hsu.
    Mr. Glassman. I never was aware of any confidential 
material.
    The Chairman. You did not see anything that was stamped 
``confidential,'' ``secret,'' ``restricted''?
    Mr. Glassman. Not that I can recall.
    The Chairman. When you were working in the UN, did you have 
access to any confidential, secret, or restricted material?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't know of any confidential material at 
the UN.
    The Chairman. I did not get your answer.
    Mr. Glassman. I said, I don't know of any confidential 
material at the UN. Most all the stuff I worked on were public 
reports.
    The Chairman. Why did you leave the UN?
    Mr. Glassman. I was terminated, in December.
    The Chairman. I see. And what were the grounds of your 
termination? I am not asking you whether the charges against 
you were true or not. I am just asking you what the charges 
were, the basis upon which you were terminated.
    Mr. Glassman. I was terminated for declining to answer 
certain questions before a congressional committee.
    The Chairman. Did you refuse to answer whether you were an 
espionage agent at that time?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't think I was ever asked that question.
    The Chairman. If you were, you answered that question, did 
you?
    Mr. Glassman. I am sorry. I didn't quite understand.
    The Chairman. If you were asked whether you were an 
espionage agent, did you answer the question?
    Mr. Glassman. I think you asked me something similar to 
that previously, just before.
    The Chairman. We are not talking about the grounds for your 
being discharged from the UN. You said you refused to answer 
certain questions before a congressional committee.
    Mr. Glassman. That was not one of the questions that was 
asked me.
    The Chairman. I see. Okay, were you engaged in espionage at 
any time over the past ten years?
    Mr. Glassman. No.
    The Chairman. The answer is ``no''? Did you ever associate 
with individuals whom you knew or had reason to suspect were 
engaged in espionage?
    Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
    The Chairman. Certainly.
    [Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
    Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
    The Chairman. You don't think so?
    Mr. Glassman. As far as I know.
    The Chairman. Your answer is that as far as you know, you 
have not been associated in the past ten years with anyone whom 
you knew or had reason to suspect was engaged in espionage?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right.
    The Chairman. Is that correct?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right.
    The Chairman. Do you know anyone who has been engaged in 
espionage, to your knowledge?
    Mr. Glassman. No.
    The Chairman. The answer is ``no''?
    Mr. Glassman. ``No.''
    The Chairman. Do you know anyone that you suspect might 
have been engaged in espionage?
    Mr. Glassman. No. I don't think I would.
    The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of 
today?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the 
basis of the privilege of the Fifth Amendment.
    The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the Communist party 
advocates the overthrow of this government by force and 
violence?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the 
same grounds.
    The Chairman. Have you ever engaged in any activities 
which, in your opinion, were a violation of any of our laws, 
the laws of this country, in connection with any Communist 
party activities or membership in the Communist party?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the 
basis of my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
    Mr. Jones. Mr. Glassman, are you a citizen of the United 
States?
    Mr. Glassman. I am.
    Mr. Jones. As a citizen, would you oppose any group 
advocating the overthrow of this government?
    Mr. Glassman. I would decline to answer that question, on 
the grounds of the Fifth Amendment.
    Mr. Jones. You served in the army?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes, I did.
    Mr. Jones. While a member of the army, you opposed a group 
advocating the overthrow of this government.
    Mr. Glassman. Do you mean Nazi Germany?
    Mr. Jones. The enemy, yes.
    Mr. Glassman. Yes. I fought in the war.
    Mr. Jones. Now, you say under the Fifth Amendment you 
refuse to answer at the present time whether you would oppose 
any group that would overthrow the government?
    Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
    Mr. Jones. Does the Communist party, in your mind, advocate 
the violent overthrow of this government?
    Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
    The Chairman. Did you ever, to your knowledge, see or 
handle any classified material, government documents? By 
``classified,'' I mean restricted, secret, or confidential.
    Mr. Glassman. Not that I can remember.
    The Chairman. After you left the UN, where did you go to 
work?
    Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
    The Chairman. Pardon?
    Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
    The Chairman. What business is that?
    Mr. Glassman. Furniture manufacturing.
    The Chairman. Furniture? What is the name of that company?
    Mr. Glassman. It is the Herrschaft Products.
    The Chairman. How do you spell that?
    Mr. Glassman. H-e-r-r-s-c-h-a-f-t.
    The Chairman. Who were your partners in that, if any?
    Mr. Glassman. Well, it is a corporation. I suppose you 
would like to know the officers of the corporation?
    The Chairman. Yes.
    Mr. Glassman. Mr. Herrrschaft, myself, and my wife are the 
officers of the corporation.
    The Chairman. Do you have a family?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
    The Chairman. How old is the oldest one?
    Mr. Glassman. The oldest? You mean child, I suppose?
    The Chairman. The oldest child.
    Mr. Glassman. About four.
    The Chairman. Has your wife ever worked for the government?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
    [Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
    Mr. Glassman. Except that she was in the armed forces.
    The Chairman. Was she a WAC?
    Mr. Glassman. She was a WAC.
    The Chairman. You took an oath when you entered the army to 
uphold the Constitution of the United States. Did you feel then 
that you would uphold the Constitution, or did you feel that 
this government should be destroyed by force and violence?
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that.
    The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
    The Chairman. Will you name them?
    Mr. Glassman. I have two sisters.
    The Chairman. And what are their names?
    Mr. Glassman. Sylvia and Doris.
    The Chairman. Is their last name the same as yours now?
    Mr. Glassman. No, they are not.
    The Chairman. What are their names?
    Mr. Glassman. Doris Lesansky----
    The Chairman. Let me ask you first: Is either of them now 
working for the government?
    Mr. Glassman. No.
    The Chairman. Have either of them worked for the 
government?
    Mr. Glassman. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. Are they married now?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes.
    The Chairman. You need not bother with their names. You are 
pretty sure they have not worked for the government. They have 
not worked for the government to your knowledge?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right.
    The Chairman. And how many brothers do you have?
    Mr. Glassman. I don't have any brothers.
    The Chairman. Are your mother and dad living?
    Mr. Glassman. Yes.
    The Chairman. Are they working for the government, or have 
they?
    Mr. Glassman. No.
    The Chairman. Is your wife a member of the Communist party
    [Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question.
    The Chairman. Was she a member before you married her?
    [Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
    Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer, on the basis of the 
Fifth Amendment.
    The Chairman. On the basis of the Fifth Amendment. I assume 
you declined to answer the first question on the basis of the 
marriage relationship. Is that correct? Or the Fifth Amendment?
    Mr. Glassman. Both, I think.
    The Chairman. Both. You had no connection with the Signal 
Corps, then, since December of 1944?
    Mr. Glassman. That is right.
    The Chairman. Would you stand and be sworn?
    In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the 
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole 
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
                    TESTIMONY OF DAVID AYMAN
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    The Chairman. May we have your full name for the record?
    Mr. Ayman. David Ayman, A-y-m-a-n. 1612 Lincoln Place, 
Brooklyn.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Ayman, were you ever in the Signal 
Corps?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. In what year?
    Mr. Ayman. 1942 to 1946. Let me clarify that. I was in the 
Signal Corps but in the last year I was attached to the air 
force.
    Mr. Cohn. You were in the Signal Corps but from 1945 to 
1946 you were attached to the air force?
    Mr. Ayman. That is right.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you stationed at Fort Monmouth?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
    Mr. Ayman. Two years: 1942 to 1944.
    Mr. Cohn. Where were you stationed when in the air force?
    Mr. Ayman. Hawaii.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you work down at Monmouth?
    Mr. Ayman. I was working in Officer Candidate School.
    Mr. Cohn. For two years?
    Mr. Ayman. I was drafted in April 1942. I took my basic 
training, three or four weeks specialized training, then was 
sent to Officers Candidate School and I got a commission in 
October, approximately, 1942 and then I was assigned to 
instruct at OCS. That was the first assignment.
    Mr. Cohn. What do you do now?
    Mr. Ayman. I am a school teacher.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you teach at the Samuel Tilden High School?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
    Mr. Ayman. I have been at Samuel Tilden since 1936.
    Mr. Cohn. You have taught there continuously since 1936?
    Mr. Ayman. Except time in the army or leave of absence for 
official business.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
party?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Teachers Union? \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \1\ Accused of Communist leanings, the Teachers Union of New York 
was expelled from the American Federation of Teachers in 1940 and 
affiliated with the United Public Workers of America, a CIO union. In 
1952 and 1953 it was investigated by the Senate Internal Security 
Subcommittee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been associated with any Communists 
in the Teachers Union?
    Mr. Ayman. Bella Dodd is a Communist.\2\ That is the only 
one officially I would know. I know no other one of my own 
knowledge.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \2\ Dr. Bella V. Dodd (1904-1969) served as legislative 
representative for the Teachers Union from 1938 to 1944, before 
formally joining the Communist party and being elected to its national 
committee. She was expelled from the party in 1949, and later discussed 
her experiences in testimony before the Senate Internal Security 
Subcommittee and in an autobiography, School of Darkness (New York: 
P.J. Kenedy, 1954).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Mr. Cohn. Do you have reasonable grounds to believe there 
are others who are Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. In other words, with the exception of Bella Dodd, 
you have never known a person you believed to be a Communist in 
the Teachers Union. Is that right?
    Mr. Ayman. That is right, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you ever represent any teachers, Teachers 
Union members, with the New York Board of Education in any 
respect?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. When was that?
    Mr. Ayman. I represented some people before Moskoff, who 
does some work for the Board of Education. He is the counsel 
for the committee for the Board of Education interrogating 
individuals, I presume, on the basis of information he has 
about them.
    Mr. Cohn. And you represented some of those persons?
    Mr. Ayman. As teacher-advisor.
    Mr. Cohn. Were any of those persons Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. None of them ever told me they were Communists 
and I never asked them.
    Mr. Cohn. Did any of them claim the Fifth Amendment when 
questioned?
    Mr. Ayman. No. The Fifth Amendment was not claimed in my 
presence.
    Mr. Cohn. Was the Fifth Amendment ever claimed?
    Mr. Ayman. No, not while I was there.
    Mr. Cohn. I don't care whether you were there. Did you ever 
hear that any of those persons you represented as teacher-
advisor claimed the Fifth Amendment?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I never heard it.
    Mr. Cohn. How many people did you so represent?
    Mr. Ayman. Eight or ten.
    Mr. Cohn. What are their names?
    Mr. Ayman. Let's see. The last one was Lee Naguid. That is 
the last one I represented. The one before that was Louis 
Auerbach. Another one I represented was Samuel Chapman. The 
other names don't occur to me at the moment. Those are the last 
three.
    One other, Mr. Klein. I don't know what his first name is.
    Mr. Cohn. Were any of those teachers suspended as a result 
of the hearing before Mr. Moskoff?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. One, Auerbach. I didn't represent Mr. 
Auerbach before Mr. Moskoff, when he appeared. I represented 
Mr. Auerbach before Mr. Perch.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, how many of these were suspended as a 
result----
    Mr. Ayman. The only one I know, can think of, is Mr. 
Auerbach. The others have not been suspended.
    Mr. Cohn. Why was Mr. Auerbach suspended?
    Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer any questions that Mr. 
Perch asked him.
    Mr. Cohn. Didn't he claim the Fifth Amendment?
    Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer questions concerning 
Communist party membership.
    Mr. Cohn. He refused to answer questions concerning 
Communist party membership?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Did that give you reasonable grounds to believe 
he was a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. You don't think somebody who refuses to answer 
the question of whether or not they are a Communist, you don't 
think that furnishes reasonable grounds to believe that person 
is a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. It is hard for me to make a judgment of a thing 
like that. There are things a person may believe in. He may 
feel this type of thing doesn't involve this type of activity.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you believe Communists should teach in the New 
York school system?
    Mr. Ayman. I believe a person ought to be judged.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you believe a Communist party member should 
teach in the New York City school system? That is a very simple 
question. Just answer ``yes'' or ``no.''
    Mr. Ayman. Well, my own feeling about this, that answer is 
not quite as simple as you put it.
    Mr. Cohn. Answer ``yes'' or ``no,'' then you can make any 
explanation you care to give us.
    Mr. Ayman. My answer would be ``yes,'' provided, of course, 
this person did not engage in activities in the school system 
in which he used his position to officially propagandize for 
the Communist party or any other group.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you think that a member of the Communist party 
would not use any position he held to propagandize and attempt 
in every way to aid the cause of the Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Well, I would say this. Any person who believed 
strongly in any position he held, it might be possible for him, 
not necessarily and I believe necessarily that he would not 
actually use his position to do that. It is possible for him to 
do that.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you believe it is possible for a Communist 
party member not to use any position he holds?
    Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that?
    Mr. Cohn. I think you should be. You are teaching children 
in the public schools in New York.
    Mr. Ayman. My function as advisor was to see that these 
people don't get rattled. I am not legal counsel. I can give 
them no legal advice. They wanted somebody to go up there and 
make sure they were represented.
    The Chairman. Is it your position that a man who is a 
member of the Communist party should not be barred from a 
teaching job unless it is first proven that he is using his 
membership-unless it is proved he is teaching communism to his 
students?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. That was not my position.
    The Chairman. Do you think that mere membership in the 
Communist party and nothing else should bar him from teaching?
    Mr. Ayman. Off-hand, I would say no.
    The Chairman. You would say it takes more than that?
    Mr. Ayman. That is my opinion. My feeling is this.
    The Chairman. What more would it take?
    Mr. Ayman. Some act, some either technical act as a teacher 
in the classroom or in connection with the school system which 
he used to actually propagandize in one form or another about 
this proposition that should cause him to be eliminated.
    The Chairman. You realize the more clever the Communist is, 
the less possibility of catching him in the acts?
    Mr. Ayman. That is possible.
    The Chairman. You might catch the dumb ones, but the clever 
ones you wouldn't catch. You would say that unless you catch 
the Communist, know that he attended Communist meetings, unless 
you catch him in the overt act of propagandizing, unless you 
catch him doing something like that, you should keep him on as 
a teacher?
    Mr. Ayman. Not only Communist, anybody else. Fascists. I 
believe in some other kinds of systems, the same thing is true 
about those individuals as well.
    The Chairman. Do you know anything about the Communist 
movement?
    Mr. Ayman. Not enough to make judgment about it.
    The Chairman. Do you know what is meant by being under 
Communist party discipline?
    Mr. Ayman. Well, in my mind, under discipline, he accepts 
the dictates from the Communist party. I assume it means----
    The Chairman. Do you mean in good standing of the party and 
must obey orders?
    Mr. Ayman. I can't make such a statement. I am not a 
member.
    The Chairman. If you were told now--witnesses have 
testified over and over, witnesses the government considers 
reliable men, who were active in the Communist party--Bella 
Dodd whom you knew testified such is the case; that a member in 
good standing is under Communist discipline and obeys orders. 
Would you have any reason to doubt that? Do you have any 
information to the contrary?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I do not have information to the 
contrary.
    The Chairman. Don't you think a teacher, regardless of how 
good a teacher he might be, should be a free agent and should 
not be under the discipline of any organizations, particularly 
the Communist party dominated by Moscow?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I believe that not only about those 
but everybody else.
    The Chairman. Do you still say someone under Communist 
party discipline should be allowed to teach, realizing they are 
not free agents, no freedom of expression but expression of the 
Communist line. Do you still say you think such a man should be 
teaching our children unless he is caught in the overt act?
    Mr. Ayman. My own feeling is, as I said before, that is a 
belief I have. Whether it is a good belief or a bad one, it 
would be a question of somebody besides myself to be able to 
answer.
    The Chairman We are not trying to change your beliefs. We 
are just curious as to what your beliefs are on communism. We 
are not concerned with your other beliefs. We are concerned 
with your belief or attitude toward the international 
conspiracy.
    Mr. Ayman. The international conspiracy, I am not in a 
position to make judgment. I am not sufficiently well 
acquainted with it. It is not in my field. If it is, I think 
government officials knowing these facts, being aware of it, 
they ought to take appropriate action. If they can show that 
persons have performed acts as part of this conspiracy, well, 
obviously they ought to do something about it.
    Mr. Jones. Are you married?
    Mr. Ayman. No, not now.
    Mr. Jones. You were before?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes.
    Mr. Jones. Was your wife a member of the Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. I have no way of knowing.
    Mr. Jones. Do you have any children?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Jones. I assume if you did have children you would not 
object to them receiving their entire education under a 
Communist teacher?
    Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't say that.
    Mr. Jones. You said it.
    Mr. Ayman. If these people were Communists and if they did 
not use their position to propagandize for their beliefs, I 
would have no objection to them any more than a person who is a 
Fascist not using his position. I would say it was perfectly 
all right, American principal. If they were using that 
position, then I would say that person should not be permitted 
to teach my children or anybody else's.
    The Chairman. In other words, you wouldn't object to having 
a Communist teacher teach your children?
    Mr. Ayman. No.
    The Chairman Would you have any objection to having a man 
convicted of rape a number of times, even though be was not 
caught committing rape in the classroom----
    Mr. Ayman. I don't think you can make that comparison. I 
assume a man convicted of rape would be sentenced to jail for a 
number of years and not permitted to get a license. I don't see 
how those two things are relevant.
    The Chairman. Suppose he did not advocate rape in the 
classroom, but had been convicted several times; that he was 
not in jail. Would you have any objection?
    Mr. Ayman. I don't know how he would get a license. If he 
didn't use his position in the classroom, I don't see what the 
objection would be.
    The Chairman. If you were looking for a babysitter, you and 
your wife were going out----
    Mr. Ayman. I would think twice before using him as a 
babysitter.
    The Chairman. Do you still have a reserve commission in the 
army?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Have you ever been in the Reserves?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You were never in the army?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I was in the army. I was in what is 
called AUS.
    The Chairman. What is AUS?
    Mr. Ayman. Army of the United States as distinguished from 
the United States Army--people commissioned through the ranks 
through OCS or some such things.
    The Chairman. Did you have a commission?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    The Chairman What was your rank?
    Mr. Ayman. I came out as a 1st lieutenant.
    The Chairman You no longer have the reserve commission?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman No connection with the army?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Jones. What do you teach at Samuel Tilden?
    Mr. Ayman. Mathematics.
    Mr. Jones. Would you agree with this statement; that the 
Communist party is a conspiracy to accomplish the violent 
overthrow of this government?
    Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment of this. 
I don't know enough about this business.
    Mr. Jones. Sir, you have been a teacher a good number of 
years. Don't you read the newspapers?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes. I know people believe it. I know it is 
possible to believe it. On the basis of my own knowledge, my 
own analysis of this thing, I don't have information to be able 
to make such a judgment.
    Mr. Rainville. How would you determine whether they were 
using their position to propagandize on your children or any 
children in your care.
    Mr. Ayman. Somebody would have to observe these 
individuals.
    Mr. Rainville. But this individual would not be you? Who is 
going to do that?
    Mr. Ayman. It is the supervisor's function to observe the 
teacher's fitness to teach.
    Mr. Rainville. But your particular job while you are a 
teacher was to represent those teachers against such 
supervisory controls? You said you were a Teachers Union 
representative.
    Mr. Ayman. I was advisor to those people, and as such I 
appeared before the supervisory body, Mr. Moskoff, to help the 
teachers. I didn't come to protect these people. My function 
was, if I thought or they thought, the individual, that he was 
being asked questions which he felt wasn't appropriate, he had 
a right to ask me my reaction. My reaction in almost ever case 
was: ``This is your job here.''
    The Chairman. Did you advise Auerbach?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I didn't advise him.
    The Chairman. The question was: Did you advise Auerbach to 
answer in regard to his Communist connections?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did he discuss that with you?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You were there as his advisor?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, I was his advisor. As a matter of fact, I 
met him five minutes before we went in to see Mr. Perch. In 
other words, here is what happened. Somebody would call and ask 
me if I would be willing to appear with this individual and I 
would say, ``Well, this person is entitled to be represented, 
to get some person who will represent them, and I will be 
willing to go.'' In most cases I hadn't seen some of these 
people. Met them maybe five minutes before we went into Mr. 
Moskoff's office.
    The Chairman. After Mr. Auerbach made his statement, did 
you make any statement in his behalf before Mr. Moskoff or 
whoever was there?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Do I understand that you did nothing 
whatsoever in the hearing of Mr. Auerbach?
    Mr. Ayman. Nothing officially.
    Mr. Auerbach, when he was questioned he called me aside and 
asked me if he should answer. My answer to him was: ``You are 
involved. You have to decide for yourself what you are going to 
do.'' The word advisor, in this case, is not technically 
correct verbiage. I can't really give a person advice which 
might involve a legal question. I am not qualified.
    The Chairman. In any event, when he called you aside and 
asked you whether he should answer these questions about 
alleged Communist activities, you didn't advise him to answer 
or not to answer?
    Mr. Ayman. That is correct.
    The Chairman. So you didn't feel he should answer?
    Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I wasn't in a position to make judgment.
    The Chairman. Do you think now that teachers should tell 
Mr. Moskoff when they are called before him whether or not they 
are Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. If these people feel they want to tell him.
    The Chairman. I am asking you whether you think they 
should?
    Mr. Ayman. For myself, I would answer.
    The Chairman. You are an advisor-teacher and I am asking 
you a simple question. Do you think teachers who are called 
before Mr. Moskoff should tell him truthfully about their 
Communist party activities? Do you think that a teacher called 
before Mr. Moskoff or any responsible member of the Board of 
Education should truthfully tell about any Communist activities 
in which they have been engaged or do you think they should 
refuse?
    Mr. Ayman. Each one must decide. It is a very hard thing to 
tell somebody. Each person must decide on the basis of his own 
convictions as to what answer he should give. I can't put 
myself in the position of telling these people what they should 
or should not do.
    The Chairman. Do you still think you are a competent 
advisor to these teachers if you don't know?
    Mr. Ayman. I am a competent advisor only in the sense that 
I would go and appear before Mr. Moskoff to give advice. As to 
whether or not they should answer or not, that I am not 
qualified to do.
    The Chairman. As of today you can't decide whether all 
teachers should be required to honestly tell about their 
Communist activities to responsible superiors?
    Mr. Ayman. That is substantially what I said before.
    The Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings of the 
Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. Were you ever asked to attend meetings of the 
Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. Did you ever attend meetings then or later 
that you thought were Communist party meetings or dominated by 
Communists?
    Mr. Ayman. I don't believe so.
    The Chairman. Would you say that the Teachers Union is 
Communist dominated?
    Mr. Ayman. Some people say it is. From my own knowledge I 
am not prepared to make such a statement.
    The Chairman. You are a member of that union?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes.
    The Chairman. Do you hold any office?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. And the general feeling is that the greater 
part of the teachers are Communists in the Teachers Union?
    Mr. Ayman. There are a number of people who believe that.
    The Chairman. That is the general feeling, isn't it?
    Mr. Ayman. I would say ``yes.''
    The Chairman. Do you know that teachers who are anti-
Communist do not join that union?
    Mr. Ayman. Probably so, although there are people in it who 
are anti-Communist. I don't know.
    The Chairman. You are still a member?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    The Chairman. How long have you been a member?
    Mr. Ayman. I have been a member of the union since 1932 or 
1933.
    The Chairman. Do you intend to retain your membership?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, unless it is declared illegal. From my 
point of view it represents the best interests of teachers.
    The Chairman. Did you ever ask Mr. Auerbach whether he was 
a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did you ever ask him whether he taught 
communism in the schools?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. But you still felt you should represent him 
and not ask him whether he was a Communist or not and not ask 
him whether he taught Communism in the schools?
    Mr. Ayman. It is a difficult problem in the school system. 
People who are called up before Mr. Moskoff have to have 
someone represent them. They are asked to bring along a 
teacher-adviser for any reason. If you struck some child you 
have a right to be represented by a teacher-advisor. It is 
obvious that lots of people would not go up as an advisor, 
because as you can gather from this, it is implied that one who 
goes up is himself a Communist.
    The Chairman. You said you went up as advisor, yet you did 
not advise them. The man called you back and asked you for your 
advice as to whether he should tell the truth about his 
Communist activities, and you say you refused to advise him.
    What did you advise him on?
    Mr. Ayman. I gave no advice. My function is if there is any 
difficulties.
    The Chairman. What kind of difficulty?
    Mr. Ayman. Suppose they would say, ``Are you a member of 
the Communist party?''
    The Chairman. He did, didn't he?
    Mr. Ayman. Either he would turn to me and say, ``Should I 
answer that question'' and I would say, ``That is up to you.''
    The Chairman. So you wouldn't advise him?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. So you weren't there to advise?
    Mr. Ayman. The technical term they used was ``advisor.'' 
That is the term they used. If they said teacher-
representative, it would be more in keeping with the meaning of 
the way the person does.
    The Chairman. Did you talk to Mr. Moskoff in his behalf?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did you talk to anyone in his behalf?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. In all cases where you represented people as 
advisor, were they accused of Communist activities?
    Mr. Ayman. Well, what they were accused of, Mr. Moskoff and 
in one case Mr. Perch, that was Mr. Auerbach, the statement was 
made that there was reason to believe they were connected with 
the Communist party or Communist activities.
    The Chairman. In other words, all cases represented by you, 
they were accused of Communist activities.
    Mr. Ayman. The statement was made that there was reason to 
believe. There was not an overt statement in some cases that 
they were actually engaged in Communist party activities.
    The Chairman. Did you ask them before you advised them 
whether the statements were true?
    Mr. Ayman. They weren't given any charges----
    The Chairman. Call it statement, allegations----
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir, I did not.
    The Chairman. So you felt you could advise them without 
knowing if the charges were true?
    Mr. Ayman. The word advise--I was simply a representative 
not to perform technical duties.
    The Chairman. How could you advise then if you didn't ask 
them?
    Mr. Ayman. That is not the function of the so-called 
representative.
    The Chairman. You say you have never been solicited to join 
the Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Maybe Bella Dodd may have solicited me.
    The Chairman. Don't you remember?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Did you ever pay any money that went to the 
Communist party?
    Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. Do you subscribe to the Daily Worker?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Any Communist papers?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Do you belong to any Communist fronts, other 
than the Teachers Union?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Have you ever belonged to any organizations 
that have been listed by the attorney general as subversive or 
Communist fronts?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir. Not that I know of.
    The Chairman. I think that is all.
    Mr. Rainville. It is my understanding you did not think it 
was objectionable to have Communist teachers so long as he 
didn't use his position to propagandize, so if these teachers 
said they were Communists, you would still have defended them 
since you think that is all right?
    Mr. Ayman. If they did not use their position in any way.
    Mr. Rainville. Then that is the reason you didn't ask them. 
You didn't care?
    Mr. Ayman. I certainly wasn't going to ask them.
    The Chairman. Weren't you interested in whether they were 
teaching their students communism?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You weren't interested?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. I thought you said that was the one condition 
under which Communists should not be allowed to teach and you 
didn't even ask.
    Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment. I don't 
watch them as teachers. I am a classroom teacher myself. That 
is the function of those who are supervisors.
    Mr. Cohn. The Teachers Union is Communist-dominated?
    Mr. Ayman. That is what people say. I think it isn't. I 
think I made that clear. The Teachers Union represents the best 
interests of teachers and as long as it does that, I think it 
is a good organization.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know Rose Russell?
    Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is a Communist?
    Mr. Ayman. I don't know whether she is or not.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is?
    Mr. Ayman. You can ask me about anybody. Unless I know 
whether they are or not I have no evidence, no way of judging.
    Mr. Cohn. Unless you have evidence of your own you never 
pronounce judgment on anything?
    Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You didn't answer counsel's question as to 
whether or not you think the Communist Teachers Union is 
Communist-dominated?
    Mr. Ayman. I say people believe----
    The Chairman. Do you think it is? You have been in it a 
long time?
    Mr. Ayman. From my experience I don't think so. My own 
opinion. As long as it represents the best interest of 
teachers----
    Mr. Rainville. You have been in the Teachers Union since 
1932 but I thought you said you didn't become a teacher until 
1936?
    Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I didn't say that. I started to teach in 
1927. They asked me about Tilden High School. I don't think I 
started to teach there until 1936.
    The Chairman. You can consider yourself under subpoena and 
we will notify your counsel when you are to return.
 TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE FRIEDMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSELS, 
             WILLIAM A. CONSIDINE AND JACK FISHER)
    The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? In the matter 
now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are 
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing 
but the truth, so help you God?
    Mr. Friedman. I do.
    The Chairman. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
    Mr. Considine. William A. Considine, 744 Broad Street, 
Newark.
    The Chairman. Will the witness give his full name for the 
record?
    Mr. Friedman. Lawrence Friedman.
    The Chairman. Who is the other gentleman?
    Mr. Considine. Associate counsel.
    The Chairman. What is his name?
    Mr. Considine. Jack Fisher.
    The Chairman. I don't think either of you gentlemen have 
appeared before the committee before, so I will run over the 
rules of the committee briefly.
    The witness can advise with counsel any time he cares to. 
He can interrupt the testimony. If you want a confidential 
meeting with your client, we will arrange a room for that at 
any time during the meeting.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you at Belock Instrument Corporation now?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been 
there?
    Mr. Friedman. Almost three years.
    Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
    Mr. Friedman. Reeves Instrument Corporation.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long?
    Mr. Friedman. Five years.
    Mr. Cohn. And what did you do before that?
    Mr. Friedman. I was in the navy, sir, for two years. I 
worked at Camp Evans Signal Corps Laboratory for two years.
    The Chairman. What kind of work did you do in the navy?
    Mr. Friedman. I was an electronics technicians mate in the 
navy.
    Mr. Cohn. When were you at Evans?
    Mr. Friedman. 1942 to 1944.
    Mr. Cohn. When you were at Evans who were you living with?
    Mr. Friedman. Ralph Dunn.
    Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
    Mr. Friedman. I was living at a rooming house in Ashbury 
Park and I also lived in a dormitory at the camp installation.
    Mr. Cohn. Who else lived at that rooming house?
    Mr. Friedman. Nobody associated with the laboratory. There 
were several other girls and boys, but nobody associated with 
the lab.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir. I met him when I was working at 
Reeves.
    Mr. Cohn. When was that?
    Mr. Friedman. I worked at Reeves from 1946 to 1951 and it 
was during that period.
    Mr. Cohn. You had not known him before?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you work?
    Mr. Friedman. I worked on the third floor in the tool 
design department and he worked on the second floor in the main 
engineering office.
    Mr. Cohn. And did you know him socially at all?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir, not at all.
    Mr. Cohn. How frequently did you see him around Reeves?
    Mr. Friedman. Very infrequently. We were not associated on 
the same project.
    Mr. Cohn. While Sobell was at Reeves were you handling any 
project for the Signal Corps?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Any classified?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did they involve radar?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you work on any of those projects?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you do any work on the same project Sobell 
was working on?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you familiar with the projects in general 
terms?
    Mr. Friedman. I know what the projects are, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know the project Sobell worked on?
    Mr. Friedman. I only knew it by name. I was not closely 
associated with those projects.
    Mr. Cohn. What do you recall?
    Mr. Friedman. I believe it was a plotting board program for 
the Air Corps. As far as I know, that is the only project he 
was associated with.
    Mr. Cohn. What else did they have there at the time you 
were there?
    Mr. Friedman. Well, of course we had many programs. We were 
doing the Mark 5 Bomb Site for the navy. Of course, we had 
these Signal Corps programs and the plotting board program.
    Mr. Cohn. What is the plotting board program?
    Mr. Friedman. Sir, I am not too familiar with it, just in 
general terms. It was plotting the inside of a trailer.
    May I ask one question? Some of this information may be 
classified.
    It was associated with 584 Signal Corps Radar. That is just 
about all I know about the program, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did it have anything to do with 527 and 627?
    Mr. Friedman. I don't know what that means. I am not 
familiar with those designations.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, in connection with the Signal Corps project, 
would people come from time to time from Evans Laboratory down 
to Reeves?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did any of them speak with Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. Not that I know of, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. You can recall no instance where anyone came from 
Monmouth and spoke with Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. No, I don't, sir.
    The Chairman. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
    Mr. Friedman. Aaron Coleman was the project engineer on the 
414A project. I was on the 414A program. I was one of the 
mechanical engineers on the program.
    The Chairman. As you perhaps know, the army intelligence 
raided Coleman's home and picked up some forty-three secret 
documents which would be of great value to the enemy.
    Do you have any knowledge of his having removed those 
documents?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir. No knowledge whatsoever.
    Mr. Cohn. Mr. Friedman, do you know a man by the name of 
Carl Greenblum?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. When did you meet Mr. Greenblum?
    Mr. Friedman. I would say 1949. He was associated in some 
fashion with the 414A program and 414A Signal Corps project. 
During the demonstration of the program I recall he did come up 
to Reeves Instrument Corporation to witness the demonstration.
    Mr. Cohn. When he came to Reeves did you see him in the 
company of Morton Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir, I didn't.
    Mr. Cohn. Did Sobell witness the demonstration?
    Mr. Friedman. I don't think so.
    Mr. Cohn. How many people worked at Reeves then?
    Mr. Friedman. I think, at that time, around one thousand.
    Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether Greenblum was associated 
with Sobell up there?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir. I do not.
    Mr. Cohn. That was the first time you met Greenblum?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him better?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Is that the only time you saw him?
    Mr. Friedman. Subsequent to that time I have met him twice. 
At the present time the Belock Instrument Corporation is about 
to complete a Signal Corps contract and Greenblum was in some 
small fashion associated with this program, associated with one 
phase of the program. I believe I had occasion to meet him 
twice.
    Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Belock, head of your company, formerly 
with Reeves?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Was he the one who hired Sobell?
    Mr. Friedman. I can't answer that.
    Mr. Cohn. Is this Belock Company doing classified work with 
the Signal Corps now?
    Mr. Friedman. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I don't have anything more of this 
witness.
    The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Young Communist 
League?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. You never attended Young Communist League 
meetings?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Never contributed to it?
    Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
    The Chairman. I may say in your presence that we will not 
give you to the press or anyone else unless you give it 
yourself. We have got to call people who are loyal in order to 
pick up the loose ends. If your name is given out some people 
might assume that you are guilty, so for that reason unless you 
give them your name, it will not be given out.
    Mr. Friedman. I would like to say, sir, that I think the 
committee is doing a wonderful job and I hope you continue to 
do so.
  TESTIMONY OF ELBA CHASE NELSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL, 
                       HAROLD I. CRAMMER)
    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you 
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God?
    Mrs. Nelson. I do.
    Mr. Cohn. Could we get the name of counsel?
    Mr. Crammer. Harold I. Crammer, of Witt and Cammer.
    Mr. Cohn. May we have your name?
    Mrs. Nelson. Elba Chase Nelson.
    Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
    Mrs. Nelson. Winter, New Hampshire.
    Mr. Cohn. What is your address?
    Mrs. Nelson. The address is Hillsboro Post Office.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you an organizer for the Communist party?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. On what grounds?
    Mrs. Nelson. It is my privilege to decline to answer under 
the Fifth Amendment.
    Mr. Cohn. If you feel a truthful answer might tend to 
incriminate you?
    Mrs. Nelson. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you in 1936 an organizer for the Communist 
party in New England?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same 
grounds.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you at that time know a man by the name of 
Haym Yamins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    Mr. Cohn. You refuse to tell us whether or not you know Dr. 
Yamins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I refuse to answer that question.
    The Chairman. So the record will be clear, Yamins was the 
liaison between the Signal Corps and MIT and other labs on 
radar until this investigation started.
    Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins spend time in your home on 
frequent occasions between 1936 and 1949.
    Mrs. Nelson. I invoke the Fifth Amendment and I decline 
answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins attend Communist party meetings at 
your home in New Hampshire?
    Mrs. Nelson. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the 
same grounds.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you present at meetings attended by Mr. 
Yamins and Dr. Miriam Udins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard Mr. Yamins discuss classified 
radar material?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
    Mr. Cohn. Has he discussed that in the presence of members 
of the Communist party?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you seen Mr. Yamins recently?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much for the information. One 
other question; I assume you will decline to answer it. Isn't 
it a fact that your home was used as headquarters for Communist 
cell meetings at which certain members of the Signal Corps 
discussed the work they were doing?
    Mrs. Nelson. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to say 
that I know absolutely nothing about Fort Monmouth. I had never 
heard of the town, didn't know where it was located until I 
read it in the newspapers.
    The Chairman. Do you know anything about Mr. Yamins?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
    The Chairman. Do you know anything about any of the men 
working in the Signal Corps Laboratory?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer. As I said, I had never 
heard of Fort Monmouth or Evans Laboratory before I read it in 
the newspaper.
    The Chairman. You had never heard Yamins mention the 
laboratory at Fort Monmouth?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that. You just got 
through telling us you had never heard the name Fort Monmouth 
or Evans Laboratory, so we can ask you some questions.
    Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else in your home 
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth?
    Mrs. Nelson. No, sir.
    The Chairman. Are you sure of that?
    Mrs. Nelson. Very sure.
    The Chairman. I want to tell you for your benefit that we 
have evidence to the contrary so you will be fully protected 
and can't claim at some future time that you were trapped into 
this.
    Having that information, will you tell us again that you 
never heard Yamins or anyone else mention Evans, the Evans 
Laboratory or Fort Monmouth? Is that correct.
    Mrs. Nelson. Will you repeat that.
    The Chairman. Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else ever 
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth? By Evans I refer to Evans 
Laboratory at Fort Monmouth.
    Mrs. Nelson. I want to repeat that I have never heard of 
Fort Monmouth until I read it in the newspapers.
    The Chairman. What is the answer to my question? Yes or No?
    Mrs. Nelson. No.
    The Chairman. Did you ever see any material brought into 
your home by anyone either stamped secret, confidential or 
restricted?
    Mrs. Nelson. No.
    The Chairman. Did you ever hear radar discussed in your 
home?
    Mrs. Nelson. No.
    The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of 
today?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
    The Chairman. Are you on the payroll of the Communist party 
as of today?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    The Chairman. Were you a Communist in 1950?
    Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
    Mr. Jones. Mrs. Nelson, if anyone stated to the contrary 
that Professor Yamins had discussed radar material and 
information in your home, would they be lying?
    Mrs. Nelson. They would be lying, sir.
    The Chairman. You may step down. You will consider yourself 
under subpoena. We may want you later. We will give your lawyer 
sufficient notice.
    Mrs. Nelson. I would like to say to the committee, I wasn't 
served with the subpoena until yesterday morning at 9:30 and I 
live over three hundred miles from New York and my husband is 
ill. I would like a little more notice, although I see no 
reason why I was called here in the first place.
    The Chairman. May I have the record clear at this time that 
apparently you weren't found by the marshal up there until 
yesterday, but you had notice a week ago that you were being 
called and made a statement to the press at that time about it. 
If the marshal can't find you, if you absent yourself from your 
home, that is not the fault of the committee.
    Let me ask you this?
    Is it correct that you made a statement to the papers in 
regard to being called?
    Mrs. Nelson. I did not make a statement. The reporter 
called me and informed me I had been subpoenaed.
    Do you imply that the marshal was at my home trying to 
serve the subpoena?
    The Chairman. The marshal had been looking for you a week.
    Mrs. Nelson. I beg your pardon. You are absolutely 
incorrect. I was home. I want to make that very clear.
    The Chairman. Ask the officer to remove the witness.
    Mrs. Nelson. I can walk.
    The Chairman. We will notify your counsel when we want you 
back here for public sessions.
                TESTIMONY OF HERBERT S. BENNETT
    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you 
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God?
    Mr. Bennett. I do.
    The Chairman. Your name is Herbert Bennett?
    Mr. Bennett. Herbert S. Bennett.
    Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed Mr. Bennett?
    Mr. Bennett. Dynamic Electronic Corporation of New York.
    Mr. Cohn. And do they do any government work there?
    Mr. Bennett. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Any classified work?
    Mr. Bennett. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. For what branch of the service?
    Mr. Bennett. We have classified contracts with the U.S. Air 
Force.
    Mr. Cohn. Does any of it involve radar?
    Mr. Bennett. Not radar as such, no. It is electronic 
communications would be closer I think.
    Mr. Cohn. How long have you been working there?
    Mr. Bennett. Since March 1952.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you work before that?
    Mr. Bennett. Signal Corps. Electronic Warfare Center, Fort 
Monmouth.
    Mr. Cohn. How long were you working at Fort Monmouth?
    Mr. Bennett. Since August 1950. I am not sure of the month 
but it was 1950.
    Mr. Cohn. What did you do before that?
    Mr. Bennett. I was an engineer at the U.S. Air Force, 
Watson Laboratories in Eatontown, New Jersey.
    Mr. Cohn. How long were you at Eatontown?
    Mr. Bennett. Since June 1946.
    Mr. Cohn. And where did you work before June of 1946?
    Mr. Bennett. In the Armed Service Signal Corps from October 
1942 until June of 1946 except for terminal leave which 
actually ended in August.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you station at Fort Monmouth?
    Mr. Bennett. For a period of, I think, approximately 
February 1943 until May 1943.
    Mr. Cohn. Where were you from 1940 to 1942?
    Mr. Bennett. That would probably cover three phases, I 
imagine. I was with New York Signal Corps Procurement District 
from March 1939 and I think that whole outfit moved to 
Philadelphia.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you ever part of Signal Corps Inspection?
    Mr. Bennett. I was in the New York Signal Corps Procurement 
Division, Inspection Division.
    Mr. Cohn. During the time you were working in the Signal 
Corps did you have access to classified material?
    Mr. Bennett. Certainly while in the service.
    Mr. Cohn. Is there any point which you were not cleared for 
classified material?
    Mr. Bennett. I think at the very beginning I filled out 
some forms which were probably for clearance.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
    Mr. Bennett. Well, I was told he was at CCNY. I actually do 
not remember him from there. He was in inspection. I vaguely 
remember him from inspection.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know him when you were in Signal Corps 
Inspection?
    Mr. Bennett. I probably came into contact with him.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you have any recollection of coming into 
contact with him?
    Mr. Bennett. I have not. There were many inspectors.
    Mr. Cohn. You don't remember him being there at all?
    Mr. Bennett. I remember a name. I came there in March 1939 
and----
    Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether you knew him there?
    Mr. Bennett. I want to explain that it is rather vague in 
my mind.
    Mr. Cohn. I would just rather have you tell me whether or 
not you knew him?
    Mr. Bennett. I can't honestly say I knew him. I remember a 
name. There were three Rosenbergs on the roster.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you remember Julius Rosenberg?
    Mr. Bennett. I would say vaguely. I don't think I remember 
him from there.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you remember him from any place?
    Mr. Bennett. That would be the only place for even a casual 
contact as far as I know.
    Mr. Cohn. Did he work with you at any time?
    Mr. Bennet. He never worked directly with me.
    Mr. Cohn. You mean on your assignment as inspectors?
    Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Was he ever under your supervision?
    Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. He did not?
    Mr. Bennett. I was assistant to the chief of the inspection 
division and in that sense if he was under my supervision, it 
would be in a very vague way.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, in as far as you recall-you don't recall 
ever having met him?
    Mr. Bennett. I cannot truthfully recall having met him.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
    Mr. Bennett. Morton Sobell I recall from school. He was in 
electrical engineering school at the same time I was at CCNY. I 
knew him there.
    Mr. Cohn. You knew him there?
    Mr. Bennett. Yes. I think I was definitely in classes that 
he was in at that time.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist?
    Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I had no relations with him that 
would even tend to bring that to my attention.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know any of your classmates as 
Communists?
    Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I knew of no classmates who were 
Communists. I would like to explain why.
    Mr. Cohn. Don't explain why if you don't know.
    Were you ever asked to go to a meeting of the Young 
Communist League?
    Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you ever asked to go to Communist meetings 
of any kind?
    Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. None of the people in school with you or at the 
Signal Corps at Fort Monmouth did anything or said anything 
which might lead you to believe that they might be Communist?
    Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. I have nothing further.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much. You are excused.
   TESTIMONY OF NORMAN LEVINSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
                       WALTER N. KERNAN)
    The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn. 
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give 
shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, 
so help you God?
    Mr. Levinson. Yes. I do.
    The Chairman. Could we get the name of counsel for the 
record?
    Mr. Kernan. Walter Kernan, Walter N., associated with 
Choate, Hall and Stewart, 30 State Street, Boston, 
Massachusetts.
    The Chairman. Now, will the witness give his name for the 
record?
    Mr. Levinson. Norman Levinson.
    Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
    Mr. Levinson. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been at 
MIT?
    Mr. Levinson. Since February 1937.
    Mr. Cohn. What type of work have you been doing?
    Mr. Levinson. Mathematics.
    Mr. Cohn. What were you doing before you began teaching 
there?
    Mr. Levinson. I am an academic appointee.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, have you ever done any laboratory work?
    Mr. Levinson. At MIT? I have not.
    Mr. Cohn. At any place?
    Mr. Levinson. Laboratory work, no.
    Wait a while. I was associated with someone who did some 
laboratory work at one time, at Worchester.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
    Mr. Levinson. I do not. I have never met him. No, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know who he is?
    Mr. Levinson. I read about him in the newspapers. I heard 
about him from Mr. [Stuart C.] Rand, who I know as an attorney 
and who is the attorney of Mr. Yamins. I heard about him 
yesterday when I went to the office of Choate, Hall and 
Stewart.
    Mr. Cohn. I assume that Mr. Rand advised you of the fact 
that Mr. Yamins who is under inquiry by this subcommittee 
testified here that you were one of the persons he had grounds 
to believe was a Communist? Was that called to your attention?
    Mr. Levinson. Do you want me to say what Mr. Rand told me?
    Mr. Cohn. Yes. I don't care particularly what Mr. Rand told 
you. I want to know if he communicated to you the fact that Mr. 
Yamins has testified that you were one of the persons he 
believed to be a Communist.
    Mr. Levinson. Mr. Rand told me Mr. Yamins had said that he 
had reason to believe that my sister was a Communist. Mr. Rand 
wasn't sure whether he knew I was a Communist or not.
    Mr. Cohn. Is your sister named Pauline Levinson?
    Mr. Levinson. That was her maiden name. Her name is Nobel 
now.
    Mr. Cohn. What does she do now?
    Mr. Levinson. She is a housewife.
    Mr. Cohn. Has she ever worked at MIT?
    Mr. Levinson. No.
    Mr. Cohn. Has she ever done any work for the government?
    Mr. Levinson. No.
    Mr. Cohn. How about her husband?
    Mr. Levinson. He is a physician.
    Mr. Cohn. Has she ever followed any calling, done anything 
other than being a housewife?
    Mr. Levinson. At what date would you like me to begin?
    Mr. Cohn. Just give it to me in general terms.
    Mr. Levinson. She was a student at Radcliffe, graduated in 
1934, majored in mathematics. She decided she didn't like 
mathematics and went to the New York School for Social Work. 
She took the course there and was a social worker in New York. 
I don't know exactly what agencies. Several, I believe, and she 
got married sometime, I believe, in the early forties.
    Mr. Cohn. Has your sister ever been a Communist?
    Mr. Levinson. When Mr. Rand told me her name had come up I 
phoned her and talked with her. She doesn't recall ever meeting 
Mr. Yamins. However, Mr. Rand mentioned that Mr. Yamins had 
passed by the home of my parents where my sister and I lived 
with a man by the name of Wechsler, Harry Wechsler. I remember 
Mr. Wechsler. He was a corrector for a professor at Harvard and 
I took some courses as an undergraduate. I do know the name 
Wechsler. This was the phone conversation. Mr. Kernans was in 
the office of Mr. Rand upstairs and I gathered Mr. Yamins was 
in the room with him. Mr. Yamins told him there was a bulldog 
in the house and there was a Boston Terrier there. There is 
that evidence. That was the summer of 1937.
    Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether your sister has 
ever been a Communist?
    Mr. Levinson. Yes. She told me on the phone that she joined 
the Communist party sometime after she came to this New York 
School of Social Work, sometime after the fall of 1937. In the 
first year of that school she joined the Communist party. In 
about 1942 she began to drift away.
    Mr. Cohn. What was she doing when she joined the party?
    Mr. Levinson. She was a student at the New York School for 
Social Workers.
    Mr. Cohn. Was she a member of the party in New York City?
    Mr. Levinson. Presumably.
    Mr. Cohn. From 1937 to 1942?
    Mr. Levinson. Either 1937--she wasn't clear. She didn't 
remember exactly. In September 1937 she went to the New York 
School and in her first academic year there, 1937 or 1938, she 
joined the Communist party.
    Mr. Cohn. Has she ever talked with the FBI? Do you know?
    Mr. Levinson. I don't know but I think she probably hasn't.
    The Chairman. Would she be willing? I know you can't speak 
for your sister, but do you think she would be willing to talk 
to the bureau and give them all the information she might have, 
even though the information would be rather old?
    Mr. Levinson. I'd be willing to call her up and try to 
persuade her.
    Mr. Cohn. But you have no recollection of Mr. Yamins?
    Mr. Levinson. No. I remember Harry Wechsler. Mr. Yamins can 
describe the place. He remembered the dog. In all probability 
he had been at the house. I got the impression from Mr. Rand 
that Mr. Yamins is an honest man. It seems quite likely. My 
sister was a good looking girl and any number of men passed by 
to see her.
    Mr. Cohn. You do not know Mr. Yamins?
    Mr. Levinson. I don't believe I met him.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a Communist?
    Mr. Levinson. Yes, I was a Communist.
    Mr. Cohn. When did you join the Communist party?
    Mr. Levinson. I joined the Communist party in the fall of 
1931.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you join?
    Mr. Levinson. Boston, Massachusetts.
    Mr. Cohn. What were you doing at the time you joined?
    Mr. Levinson. I was an instructor in mathematics at MIT.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you remain in 
the party?
    Mr. Levinson. About eight years, a little less. 1937 to 
1945. I think I was all out by the spring of 1945.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you talked to the FBI?
    Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. When?
    Mr. Levinson. Several times.
    Mr. Cohn. When was the first time?
    Mr. Levinson. The first time was early in April, I think, 
of this year and I didn't say much to them then. I had been 
subpoenaed before the Velde committee [House Un-American 
Activities Committee] and sort of wanted to get that off my 
mind. They arranged for subsequent appointments. After that I 
had some sessions with the FBI agent. Do you want his name?
    Mr. Cohn. No.
    The Chairman. You didn't take the Fifth Amendment before 
the Velde committee?
    Mr. Levinson. I did not.
    The Chairman. Did you testify before the Velde committee in 
open session or closed session?
    Mr. Levinson. Open session.
    The Chairman. Who recruited you into the Communist party?
    Mr. Levinson. Well, I sort of went over this a little bit 
with the FBI. It is pretty complicated and it will sound a 
little weird.
    Nobody recruited me. I actually walked into the 
headquarters of the Communist party of Boston and met Mr. Phil 
Frankfeld and signed up.
    The Chairman. Was there anybody you knew while in the 
Communist party who is today working for the United States 
government?
    Mr. Levinson. No.
    The Chairman. Is there anybody whom you knew in the 
Communist party who has worked for the Army Signal Corps or any 
related organization?
    Mr. Levinson. No.
    The Chairman. Or any laboratory where they might have been 
doing work on radar or for the Signal Corps?
    Mr. Levinson. Let's see. This goes back to the war period. 
Let's see. Wendell Furry.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    \3\ Wendell Furry later testified in executive session on November 
4, 1953.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    The Chairman. Did he have anything to do with radar?
    Mr. Levinson. He was in the radiation lab. He was a 
theoretical physicist.
    The Chairman. What is Mr. Furry doing now?
    Mr. Levinson. He is a professor of physics at Harvard. He 
was also before the Velde committee.
    The Chairman. Did he testify?
    Mr. Levinson. He gave fairly long testimony except on 
certain questions he invoked the Fifth Amendment.
    The Chairman. He is teaching at Harvard now?
    Mr. Levinson. That is right.
    The Chairman. What did he do in connection with radar?
    Mr. Levinson. Well, all the work of the radiation 
laboratory has been published. He wrote part of the volume of 
theories of antennas.
    The Chairman. At MIT? The Signal Corps project at MIT, was 
it?
    Mr. Levinson. Gentlemen, I don't know that. I don't think 
so. This was during the war. It was not electronic radar. It 
was NDIC, which he was interested. I think there were a lot of 
people interested, but as I say, various stuff was published 
after the war. It was rather theoretical, considerably 
theoretical.
    The Chairman. And he is now teaching at Harvard and he 
appeared before the Velde committee? Now, is he the only one 
you can think of?
    Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
    The Chairman. I think that will be all. I don't think we 
will need you again.
    Just one other question. You say that in 1945 or 
thereabouts you broke off connections with the Communist party?
    Mr. Levinson. I had certain differences, disputes with the 
New Masses with them in 1944 and stopped attending meetings and 
I sort of split away. Arguments with local leaders, etc.
    The Chairman. Thank you very much. Your name will not be 
given to the press or anyone else unless you give it to them.
    Mr. Levinson. I think that will not only help me but MIT.
    The Chairman. The reason we don't give out names of 
witnesses, we have got to call a lot of good, loyal Americans 
and if we give the names of witnesses, there is always the 
impression that they must have been guilty of something, which 
is not true.
    Thank you very much. That is all.
    Mr. Kernan. Is Mr. Levinson discharged from the subpoena?
    The Chairman. We will let you know if we want him again.
                   TESTIMONY OF LOUISE SARANT
    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you 
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God?
    Mrs. Sarant. I do.
    The Chairman. Could we get your full name for the record 
please?
    Mrs. Sarant. Louise Jacqueline Sarant.
    The Chairman. Where do you reside?
    Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
    The Chairman. What is the street address?
    Mrs. Sarant. RD No. 3.
    Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
    Mrs. Sarant. Housewife.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
    Mrs. Sarant. No, divorced.
    Mr. Cohn. What was the name of your husband?
    Mrs. Sarant. Alfred?
    Mr. Cohn. When were you divorced from your husband?
    Mrs. Sarant. We were divorced in 1952.
    Mr. Cohn. When were you married?
    Mrs. Sarant. 1945.
    Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Sarant ever work for the Signal Corps out 
at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey?
    Mrs. Sarant. Not when I knew him.
    Mr. Cohn. If he did it was prior to your marriage. Is that 
right?
    Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Was it in the years 1942 and 1943, approximately?
    Mrs. Sarant. I don't know.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, at the time--when did you see Mr. Sarant 
last by the way?
    Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago, 1950. July of 1950.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, coming to the first of 1945, in that year 
was Mr. Sarant an espionage agent?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. You understand that unless you were involved, 
the fact that he was an espionage agent would not incriminate 
you, unless you, yourself, were involved. You understand that, 
don't you?
    Mrs. Sarant. I believe I do. I believe I understand what I 
am doing when I refuse to answer a question on the ground it 
may incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, Mrs. Sarant, from what Mr. Sarant told you 
do you know that he was engaged in espionage while working for 
the Signal Corps?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the 
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you ever present when Mr. Sarant, Joel Barr 
and Julius Rosenberg were discussing plans concerning espionage 
against the United States?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist 
party yourself?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Are you today a member of the Communist party?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Has Mr. Sarant left this country and gone to the 
Soviet Union?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the 
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Where did you last see Mr. Sarant?
    Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
    Mr. Cohn. When?
    Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago.
    Mr. Cohn. Was he your husband then?
    Mrs. Sarant. [No answer]
    The Chairman. Has he left the country?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the 
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Do you know whether he is in the United 
States?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. When did you get your divorce?
    Mrs. Sarant. 1952. A year ago.
    The Chairman. Where did you get the divorce?
    Mrs. Sarant. Florida.
    The Chairman. In what court down in Florida?
    Mrs. Sarant. I have no idea. Miami.
    The Chairman. And where did they serve the papers on your 
husband or did they serve them by publication?
    Mrs. Sarant. Publication.
    The Chairman. Do you know what address they gave in the 
publication notice?
    Mrs. Sarant. I think it was our last home address.
    The Chairman. I believe you have got to sign an affidavit 
that this is the last known address of your husband. Is that 
right?
    Mrs. Sarant. I believe so.
    The Chairman. Is that actually the last address you know he 
stopped at?
    Mrs. Sarant. That is the last place I saw him.
    The Chairman. Is that the last address that you know that 
he had, regardless of where you saw him? In other words, did 
you learn from someone else a different address he had 
subsequent to that time?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Are you married now?
    Mrs. Sarant. No.
    The Chairman. What do you work at?
    Mrs. Sarant. I take care of my children.
    The Chairman. How many children do you have?
    Mrs. Sarant. Two.
    The Chairman. How old is the oldest child?
    Mrs. Sarant. Seven in December.
    The Chairman. Are you working at all yourself or just 
taking care of your children?
    Mrs. Sarant. Pardon?
    The Chairman. You aren't holding down any job at all?
    Mrs. Sarant. No.
    The Chairman. How do you support yourself?
    Mrs. Sarant. My father supports me.
    The Chairman. You get no income from the Communist party at 
this time?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. I may say you waived the privilege when I 
asked you about support and you stated your father supported 
you.
    Mr. Cohn. Is your father a Communist?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Was your father's name Victor Ross?
    Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Where does he reside?
    Mrs. Sarant. Utica, New York.
    Mr. Cohn. Same address?
    Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
    The Chairman. When Mr. Sarant left did he take any 
belongings with him?
    Mrs. Sarant. I don't remember what he took with him.
    The Chairman. Did he just walk out of the house with his 
hat or did he take clothes?
    Mrs. Sarant. I believe he had a suitcase. I can't tell you 
what was in it.
    The Chairman. What were the grounds for divorce?
    Mrs. Sarant. Desertion.
    The Chairman. Have you heard from Mr. Sarant in the last 
three years, directly or indirectly?
    Mrs. Sarant. No, I have not.
    The Chairman. Not one word?
    Mrs. Sarant. No.
    The Chairman. As far as you know he disappeared from the 
face of the earth?
    Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
    The Chairman. Do you know Joel Barr?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Do you know Vivan Glassman?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Do you know Joseph Levitsky?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Do you know a man by the name of Carl 
Greenberg?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Were you present at a restaurant on 34th 
Street in New York with your husband and Joel Barr when 
Levitsky and with him William Perl on an occasion when Joseph 
Levitsky brought Carl Greenberg to that restaurant?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Do you know William Perl?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that such 
answer might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Were you yourself engaged in espionage?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. Was your husband a part of the Rosenberg spy 
ring while he worked for the Signal Corps?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. That will be all for the time being, Mrs. 
Sarant. We will want you at a future date, so consider yourself 
under subpoena.
    The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Aaron Copland?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it 
might tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Rainville. I had occasion in 1932 to interview some of 
the Brown Shirt leaders in Chicago and at one of their homes 
they had a seven-year-old boy of whom they were very proud of 
the way which he talked about Hitler. He would run in the front 
room and salute before Hitler's picture.
    May I ask, are you teaching your children the principles of 
the Communist party?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
    Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the 
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
    The Chairman. You understand that you are still under 
subpoena and you will be notified when to return.
    Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
  TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH H. PERCOFF (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
                      LEONARD E. GOLDITCH)
    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that in the matter now 
in hearing the testimony you are about to give will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God?
    Mr. Percoff. I do.
    Mr. Golditch. I'd like to enter my appearance.
    Mr. Cohn. We'd like you to.
    Mr. Golditch. My name is Leonard E. Golditch, 25 Broad 
Street, New York 4, New York.
    Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask for an adjournment at this 
time. I understand from my client that he was served this 
subpoena at 1:30 yesterday afternoon. He consulted me yesterday 
evening about 4:30. I haven't had the opportunity to really 
prepare for the hearing or ascertain what the facts are or what 
the hearing is about. I would, therefore, respectfully ask the 
Chairman for an adjournment so I may be able to prepare for the 
hearing and the witness will be ready to reappear at any time 
you telephone. Call either his office or mine.
    The Chairman. I think that is a reasonable request.
    Mr. Golditch. In other words, when do you expect to be back 
in the city?
    The Chairman. I think I will be back a week from next 
Tuesday or Wednesday. We will let you know.
    Mr. Golditch. My number is Hanover 2-7550.
    The Chairman. I might suggest counsel, that it will save 
you considerable work if you let counsel ask some questions and 
if it requires further study, you can ask for an adjournment 
then.
    Mr. Golditch. I would appreciate it very much if we could 
have the adjournment. I might make unnecessary objections and 
we may be able to save you a lot of time when I ascertain what 
the hearings are about.
    The Chairman. We will notify you then, perhaps a week from 
Tuesday or Wednesday.
  TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE AGUIMBAU (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, 
                      OSMOND. K. FRAENKEL)
    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you 
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God?
    Mr. Aguimbau. I do.
    The Chairman. May we have your full name?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Lawrence Baker Aguimbau.
    The Chairman. And your counsel?
    Mr. Fraenkel. Osmond K. Fraenkel, 120 Broadway, New York.
    Mr. Cohn. Mr. Aguimbau, where do you reside?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Foxboro, Massachusetts.
    Mr. Cohn. And what is your occupation?
    Mr. Aguimbau. I am a teacher at MIT.
    Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Radio engineering.
    Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Since 1939.
    Mr. Cohn. Have you ever done any work for the government?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Not directly, only through MIT.
    Mr. Cohn. What was the work you have done?
    Mr. Aguimbau. I have worked for MIT, work that was under 
government contract.
    Mr. Cohn. Such as?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Such as the research laboratory of 
electronics.
    Mr. Cohn. Did any of that work involve radar?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No. It involved electronic frequency 
moderation.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you come across any classified information in 
the course of that work?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No.
    Mr. Cohn. Was that the only project you worked on?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Except for teaching. I was teaching army 
specialized training. That was not under direct government 
auspices.
    Mr. Cohn. At MIT?
    Mr. Aguimbau. That is correct.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know a Mr. Yamins?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Mr. Yamins?
    Mr. Aguimbau. It is difficult to say in detail. I know I 
met him as early as 1937, casually, and I may have met him 
before that. I read in the papers that we were both students at 
Harvard and I assume I may have met him there.
    Mr. Cohn. What year were you working on the electronic 
program?
    Mr. Aguimbau. 1945 until the present.
    Mr. Cohn. You are working on it now?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. By the way, at the present time you don't happen 
to be on government payroll, do you?
    Mr. Aguimbau. That isn't government contribution.
    Mr. Cohn. When did the government contribution cease?
    Mr. Aguimbau. July 1.
    Mr. Cohn. When were you teaching this army training?
    Mr. Aguimbau. During the war.
    Mr. Cohn. Now, you say you met Mr. Yamins in 1937?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him well?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Not well. It is so difficult to remember in 
detail. I have been trying to think of it since I saw his name 
in the papers. I met him in that period a total of a half dozen 
times.
    Mr. Cohn. When did he come to MIT?
    Mr. Aguimbau. A year or so ago. I wouldn't know that. 
Something of that sort.
    Mr. Cohn. And from the time you met him until he came to 
MIT, you had been with him about a half dozen times?
    Mr. Aguimbau. It is very hard to time with precision back 
about fifteen years ago. I did meet him occasionally.
    Mr. Cohn. Were any of these contacts socially?
    Mr. Aguimbau. I casually met him on the street in Cambridge 
while he was a graduate student at Harvard.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you ever at any social gathering where he 
was present?
    Mr. Aguimbau. On one occasion, I believe.
    Mr. Cohn. When was that?
    Mr. Aguimbau. 1937.
    Mr. Cohn. Who else was present?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I don't know. It is a long time back 
and I don't really know.
    Mr. Cohn. You recall nobody who was present?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No. It was a left-wingish sort of social 
gathering but I had the impression he was not attending the 
gathering as such but was a casual visitor. He remarked on that 
to me.
    Mr. Cohn. You recall that?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. That is right.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you recall anybody present besides you and 
Yamins?
    Mr. Aguimbau. The people living in the house and I think 
there were others present but I don't know. I have been 
thinking of this during the time and it was the first time to 
the best of my knowledge that I met him and he came up and 
introduced himself and apparently he knew me because he said he 
had seen me at electrical meetings.
    Mr. Cohn. You say it was a leftish gathering-under whose 
sponsorship?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir. A school that I had attended.
    Mr. Cohn. Can you be specific?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Progressive Labor School.
    Mr. Cohn. Was that a Communist school?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Under influence, I would say.
    Mr. Cohn. Were you a party member at that time?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Not at that time. I was from 1937 to sometime 
between 1949 and 1950. I am not sure of the exact date.
    Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the party?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Late 1949 or early 1950.
    Mr. Cohn. During part of the time you were working on the 
electronics project you were a member of the Communist party?
    Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
    Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody you met in the Communist party 
or in the Communist movement who is today working directly or 
indirectly for the government?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Not that I know of. I can't think of anyone 
who is.
    Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody who did any work for the 
government, directly or indirectly----
    Mr. Aguimbau. It has been testified that Yamins of MIT did. 
He testified to that effect himself but I was not aware of 
anyone in the project in which I was active being a member of 
the Communist party.
    The Chairman. Is this the first time you were before a 
committee?
    Mr. Aguimbau. I was before the Velde committee.
    The Chairman. Did you ever see Mr. Yamins at leftish 
gatherings?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No.
    The Chairman. Now, when he came to MIT, did you have 
occasion to know Mr. Yamins better?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Only as far as business was concerned. I 
never talked with him about anything other than business 
matters.
    Mr. Cohn. Not at all. You never had a social acquaintance?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No, sir. I was at one leftish meeting with 
him socially. I have the impression that I met him at the Radio 
Institute at a radio engineers meeting in New York. I can not 
be certain of that.
    Mr. Cohn. Did he attend this Progressive Labor School?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No.
    Mr. Cohn. You did not see him there?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know who brought him to the party? What he 
was doing at the party?
    Mr. Aguimbau. He told me he had come by with someone; that 
he was attending as a friendly matter and was not interested in 
the matter himself.
    Mr. Cohn. What was the matter? Was it fund raising?
    Mr. Aguimbau. No, it wasn't that. Some sort of celebration.
    Mr. Cohn. In connection with the school?
    Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
    Mr. Cohn. Having searched your memory and having thought 
about it, do you still say you don't know anybody who worked 
for the government, we are particularly interested in 
electronics and radar, who are now or ever have been in the 
government and whom you knew in the Communist movement?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I was in the laboratory--where I was 
working I have no knowledge of anyone who was a member of the 
Communist party.
    Mr. Cohn. How about any place, anywhere, who was in the 
Communist movement and now works for the government?
    Mr. Aguimbau. It is a very difficult thing to answer. I 
wouldn't know of their government employment. I do believe that 
there was one case I knew of where a man was working for the 
government fifteen or twenty years ago, not in recent years.
    Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
    Mr. Aguimbau. I had rather not give that.
    Mr. Cohn. Would you direct the witness to give that, Mr. 
Chairman.
    The Chairman. I may say that I understand your feeling that 
you don't want to name someone who worked in the government 
fifteen or twenty years ago. It may seem very unimportant and 
most likely will be unimportant. However, we are investigating 
a situation concerning espionage of very startling evidence, 
the Rosenberg spy ring extending into the Monmouth plant. Under 
those circumstances, it is difficult to know whether or not the 
man you knew as a Communist could furnish some very important 
information, which might be a minor link. I think I will have 
to very reluctantly order you to answer that.
    Mr. Aguimbau. May I say a word. He was not--he was working 
a long time back on a project of rivers or something of that 
sort, nothing connected with electrical matters. It is not at 
all connected. I am reasonably certain he has not worked for 
the government in the last fifteen years.
    The Chairman. What is he doing now?
    Mr. Aguimbau. I don't know. I haven't had contact with him 
in five or ten years.
    The Chairman. Then how do you know he is not back in the 
government? Do you know that he left the government?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, I could say that because he was asked to 
leave that project as a security matter. He was asked to leave 
that project as a security matter.
    The Chairman. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't give 
us the name. If you want to consult with counsel, you have a 
right to at any time you'd like.
    Mr. Cohn. I'd like the name.
    Mr. Aguimbau. As I said before, I feel very strongly that 
he is not connected with this.
    Mr. Cohn. The trouble with that is this: You can't judge 
that. You don't know what happened. You don't know who his 
friends are in the Communist movement. You could give us a 
chance to call him in executive session and he might be 
perfectly friendly and happy to cooperate. You don't have the 
picture the committee has and you can't take it upon yourself 
to judge whether or not he can help.
    The Chairman. If we hear of anybody who is a Communist in 
the government we have to get the name and call him in. Unless 
you feel the answer might tend to incriminate you and I'm sure 
it wouldn't as you have freely answered the other question, we 
ought to have the name.
    Mr. Aguimbau. The situation is, he did tell me that he was 
discharged on a security basis and on this basis you must have 
his name.
    Mr. Cohn. That isn't going to be too much help to me.
    Mr. Aguimbau. You put me in a very embarrassing situation.
    The Chairman. I will have to order you to give the name.
    Mr. Aguimbau. I will have to refuse.
    The Chairman. Well, we will have to hold you in contempt if 
you refuse. You have no legal basis.
    I may say, as long as the witness has competent legal 
counsel, have the record show that the witness refused to 
answer the question; that the chairman ordered him to answer 
and he persisted in refusing and states that if he were to 
answer the question, the answer would not tend to incriminate 
him.
    Mr. Aguimbau. I might say this. I am thoroughly willing to 
cooperate with the committee as far as knowledge of the present 
situation is concerned and I regard on the technical matter at 
hand that this happens to be non-pertinent. If it were 
pertinent, I would bring it out.
    Mr. Rainville. You have already been proved wrong once. The 
government discharged him as a security risk.
    Mr. Aguimbau. The government discharges people as security 
risks from all kinds of positions.
    Mr. Rainville. They did think he was a security risk. They 
found out about his Communist activities and discharged him.
    The Chairman. Give us the names of every other individual 
you have known as a member of the Communist party? Do you 
refuse to do that too?
    Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. I would say that in this respect I 
thought this matter over. I had the same situation in the Velde 
committee. The reason for doing so is that I searched my 
conscience very carefully and decided there were many courses 
open to me and that in particular use of the Fifth Amendment 
would be appropriate but I didn't wish to do that. I wanted to 
give the committee there and this committee as much information 
as I can that will be of use to them in the problem at hand. I 
am willing to be of help and I have forgone the use of the 
privilege of the Fifth Amendment because I wished to be of 
maximum assistance to the committee consistent with what I felt 
was an honorable stand. If I had known of any activities that 
in my opinion constitute espionage or anything of that nature, 
I wouldn't use that for this purpose. This was the best thing I 
honorably could do for the committee.
    The Chairman. Let me say this for your information.
    The committee, as you understand, has jurisdiction to 
investigate anything having to do with the government, 
expenditure of government funds. It is not confined solely to 
the Signal Corps Laboratory, you understand, and we have been 
going into the question of Communists, espionage in various 
branches of the government.
    Mr. Jones. As a member of the Communist party you my have 
known of no espionage activities on his part. We may have other 
evidence indicating that he was part of the Rosenberg spy ring.
    The Chairman. It may be possible that the unimportant 
evidence, unimportant to you, it may seem completely irrelevant 
to you but it might be an important link in uncovering and 
exposing the espionage ring which has been operating or is 
operating at Fort Monmouth. For that reason I am going to order 
you to give the committee (1) the names of all members of the 
Communist party known to you as such who are now to your 
knowledge working in the government.
    Mr. Aguimbau. I know none.
    The Chairman. Number two, anyone known to you who is a 
member of the Communist party who has in the past been in or 
worked in the government.
    Mr. Aguimbau. I know only one instance of that.
    The Chairman. That is the one on which we have your refusal 
already. Number three, I am going to ask you to give the names 
of all those known to you as members of the Communist party and 
whose occupation you do not know at the present time. That is 
on the theory that he may or may not be working in the 
government, may or may not be doing government work.
    I assume you refuse to answer that?
    Mr. Aguimbau. That is so.
    The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered 
to answer the question and still refused. Last and finally is 
the request for the names of any other individuals other than 
those who have subsequently been deceased who were known to you 
or are known to you as members of the Communist party.
    Mr. Aguimbau. [No answer.]
    The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered 
to answer the question and refused and the basis for refusing 
was not on the Fifth Amendment but for the reason as stated by 
the witness.
    Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
    The Chairman. May I suggest that you go back and think this 
matter over and if you change your mind, let us know. We have 
no desire to take the time of the courts and the time of the 
Senate to punish people for contempt. There is nothing gained 
as far as the committee is concerned and nothing gained as far 
as you are concerned.
    Mr. Fraenkel. Counsel and the witness have talked this over 
quite sometime.
    The Chairman. Maybe when he thinks over the grounds on 
which we feel we need this, he will. If he doesn't, it is up to 
him.
                    TESTIMONY OF PERRY SEAY
    The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you 
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the 
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you 
God?
    Mr. Seay. I do.
    Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name?
    Mr. Seay. Perry Alexander Seay. The last name is spelled S-
e-a-y.
    Mr. Cohn. You are employed at the Reeves Instrument 
Corporation?
    Mr. Seay. Yes.
    Mr. Cohn. Since when?
    Mr. Seay. 1947, November 1947. However, I was away for 
about an eight months period.
    Mr. Cohn. Where were you before you went to Reeves?
    Mr. Seay. University of Texas.
    Mr. Cohn. While at Reeves, did you know Morton Sobell?
    Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
    Mr. Seay. Not at the time I was employed there, after his 
indictment.
    Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well when there?
    Mr. Seay. I knew him as a business acquaintance.
    Mr. Cohn. Did he work in the same office with you?
    Mr. Seay. For a period he did.
    Mr. Cohn. Who were the people that would come in to see 
him?
    Mr. Seay. He had dealings primarily with the air force and 
was only on the air force job during the time I was there.
    Mr. Cohn. Was that a classified job?
    Mr. Seay. Yes, sir, it was.
    Mr. Cohn. Do you know any of his social acquaintance that 
would drop in on him in the office?
    Mr. Seay. No.
    Mr. Cohn. You don't recall the name of anyone who ever came 
to see him in the office?
    Mr. Seay. Not a social acquaintance.
    Mr. Cohn. Anyone with whom he was particularly friendly?
    Mr. Seay. No.
    Mr. Cohn. How about the names of anyone who would come to 
the office to see him regardless of the relationship?
    Mr. Seay. [No answer]
    The Chairman. Would business people from various companies 
come there in connection with the work under way?
    Mr. Seay. Yes.
    The Chairman. Would you name all the people you recall? 
Give us the names of all those?
    Mr. Seay. Mr. Lesley Cornell.
    The Chairman. Where is Mr. Cornell?
    Mr. Seay. Army air force, Rome air force.
    The Chairman. Was he a civilian or an army officer?
    Mr. Seay. He was a civilian employee of the air base.
    The Chairman. How often would he come in to see Sobell?
    Mr. Seay. In frequently. It is difficult for me to say. I 
wasn't directly associated with the project Mr. Sobell was on.
    The Chairman. You may think it is unimportant to give us 
the names, but it is important that you give us the names of 
everyone who came in to see Sobell. Out of ten nine might not 
be important but the tenth one might be important.
    Mr. Seay. I will do my best. You will have to remember that 
was over two years. I believe there was a Mr. Duncan.
    The Chairman. Who is he?
    Mr. Seay. He is head of the Helipot Corporation.
    The Chairman. Was he doing business with Reeves?
    Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. He still does business with Reeves.
    The Chairman. As far as you know he would just come in on 
business?
    Mr. Seay. I'd like to retract that statement. I don't know 
of any specific time he came to see Sobell.
    The Chairman. How about Cornell? Was that the first name 
you gave, Cornell?
    Mr. Seay. Cornell was head of the project at Rome, which 
was then Watson Laboratories. Sobell was project engineer at 
Reeves.
    The Chairman. Did Cornell see Sobell in the course of his 
work?
    Mr. Seay. Yes.
    The Chairman. Only in the course of his work?
    Mr. Seay. That was the only information I had.
    The Chairman. Keeping in mind that he was committing 
espionage at that particular time, I wish you would search your 
memory a little more carefully for these names?
    How about Greenblum, Carl Greenblum?
    Mr. Seay. I don't believe he had occasion to visit Sobell.
    The Chairman. Do you know Greenblum?
    Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
    The Chairman. You have only given me the name of one person 
who visited Sobell. I am going to ask you when you leave here 
to try and make a list of other people who visited Sobell and 
give the description of who they are, in business as far as you 
know and who visited him socially. You will be considered 
giving that under oath.
    Do I understand at this time that the only man you know of 
who visited Sobell was this man Cornell?
    Mr. Seay. It has been two years since this incident. At the 
time I was not directly associated with the project involved. I 
only know Mr. Cornell visited there; that he was the project 
engineer--
    The Chairman. Did you ever see him talk to Sobell?
    Mr. Seay. Yes.
    The Chairman. You didn't assume he talked to him?
    Mr. Seay. I know he was there in connection with the 
project and with Sobell.
    The Chairman. How large was this office you and Sobell 
worked in?
    Mr. Seay. The office was about--approximately eight people, 
eight desks.
    The Chairman. Was it as big as this room?
    Mr. Seay. About as big as this end.
    The Chairman. You worked there how many years?
    Mr. Seay. I was in that office--It is difficult to say. I 
have been in six or eight different offices. Probably a year at 
the least.
    The Chairman. It seems with Sobell in there you could think 
of a few more people who visited him?
    Mr. Seay. I concur.
    The Chairman. Let me ask you this: When Sobell was indicted 
for espionage, where were you working?
    Mr. Seay. I was at Reeves.
    The Chairman. How long before that had Sobell been at 
Reeves?
    Mr. Seay. He had been at Reeves, let's see, this was 
possibly two or three years. I don't know. I believe he came to 
Reeves about 1947 or 1948. If I am not mistaken he was there at 
the time I came in 1947.
    The Chairman. Now long before he was indicated did he leave 
Reeves?
    Mr. Seay. Possibly a couple of weeks before on vacation.
    The Chairman. A couple of weeks before he was indicted he 
was working in the office where you were?
    Mr. Seay. Yes.
    The Chairman. When you heard he was indicted didn't it make 
some impression on you, and didn't you go over in your mind the 
people who were visiting him?
    Mr. Seay. Not to any great extent. I was concerned about 
the problem, highly concerned.
    The Chairman. Didn't you stop to think who had been 
visiting in the office? He is a man accused of espionage, 
punishable by death. You were working in the same office with 
him, had been there up to the week before over a period of a 
year. Didn't you stop and say to yourself: Is it true? Who was 
at the scene? Who was involved?
    Mr. Seay. I would like to put in one comment. We have 
complete records at Reeves indicating who was there to see 
Sobell all during that period. I think that would be much more 
factual.
    The Chairman. Reeves keeps a record of anyone who com