[107 Senate Committee Prints]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:83872.wais]
S. Prt. 107-84
EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
=======================================================================
VOLUME 4
__________
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
1953
MADE PUBLIC JANUARY 2003
Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs
______
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
107th Congress, Second Session
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
Richard A. Hertling, Minority Staff Director
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii, SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois TED STEVENS, Alaska
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Kim Corthell, Minority Staff Director
Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
83rd Congress, First Session
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas \1\
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington \1\
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri \1\
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
assistant counsels
Robert F. Kennedy Donald A. Surine
Thomas W. La Venia Jerome S. Adlerman
Donald F. O'Donnell C. George Anastos
Daniel G. Buckley
investigators
Robert J. McElroy
Herbert S. Hawkins James N. Juliana
G. David Schine, Chief Consultant
Karl H. W. Baarslag, Director of Research
Carmine S. Bellino, Consulting Accountant
La Vern J. Duffy, Staff Assistant
----------
\1\ The Democratic members were absent from the subcommittee from
July 10, 1953 to January 25, 1954.
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Volume 4
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 23.......... 2729
Testimony of Sidney Glassman; David Ayman; Lawrence Friedman;
Elba Chase Nelson; Herbert S. Bennett; Joseph H. Percoff;
Lawrence Aguimbau; and Perry Seay.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 26.......... 2777
Statements of Benjamin Zuckerman; Hans Inslerman; Thomas K.
Cookson; Doris Seifert; Lafayette Pope; Ralph Iannarone;
Saul Finkelstein; Abraham Lepato; Irving Rosenheim; and
Richard Jones, Jr.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 27.......... 2815
Statements of Edward Brody; Max Katz; Henry Jasik; Capt.
Benjamin Sheehan; Russell Gaylord Ranney; Susan Moon; Peter
Rosmovsky; and Sarah Omanson.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 30.......... 2851
Statements of Harold Ducore; Stanley R. Rich; Nathan Sussman;
Louis Leo Kaplan; Carl Greenblum; Sherrod East; Jacob
Kaplan; James P. Scott; Bernard Lee; and Melvin M. Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 2.......... 2893
Statements of William Johnstone Jones; Murray Narell; Samuel
Sack; Joseph Bert; Raymond Delcamp; Leo Fary; and Irving
Stokes.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 3.......... 2919
Testimony of Abraham Chasanow; Joseph H. Percoff; Solomon
Greenberg; Isadore Solomon; William Saltzman; and Samuel
Sack.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 4.......... 2953
Testimony of Victor Rabinowitz; Wendell Furry; Diana Wolman;
Abraham Brothman; Norman Gaboriault; Harvey Sachs; Sylvia
Berke; and Benjamin Wolman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 5.......... 3033
Testimony of Harry Hyman; Vivian Glassman Pataki; Gunnar
Boye; Alexander Hindin; Samuel Paul Gisser; Stanley
Berinsky; Ralph Schutz; and Henry Shoiket.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 16......... 3083
Testimony of Rear Admiral Edward Culligan Forsyth; Samuel
Snyder; Ernest Pataki; Albert Socol; Joseph K. Crevisky;
Ignatius Giardina; and Leon Schnee.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 17......... 3125
Testimony of James Weinstein; Harry Grundfest; Harry
Pastorinsky; Emery Pataki; and Charles Jassik.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 25......... 3151
Testimony of Morris Savitt; Albert Fischler; James J. Matles;
Bertha Singer; and Terry Rosenbaum.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10......... 3171
Testimony of Michael Sidorovich; and Ann Sidorovich.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10......... 3175
Statement of Samuel Levine.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 14......... 3199
Testimony of Albert Shadowitz; Pvt. David Linfield; Shirley
Shapiro; and Sidney Stolberg.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 15......... 3221
Testimony of Ezekiel Heyman; Lester Ackerman; Sigmond Berger;
Ruth Levine; Bennett Davies; John D. Saunders; Norman
Spiro; Carter Lemuel Burkes; John R. Simkovich; Linda
Gottfried; Joseph Paul Komar; John Anthony DeLuca; and Sam
Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 16......... 3273
Testimony of Wilbur LePage; Martin Levine; John Schickler;
David Lichter; Albert Burrows; Seymour Butensky; and
Kenneth John Way.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 17......... 3309
Statements of Irving Israel Galex; Harry Lipson; Seymour
Janowsky; Harry M. Nachmais; Curtis Quinten Murphy; Martin
Schmidt; and David Holtzman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 18......... 3349
Statements of Joseph John Oliveri; Philip Joseph Shapiro;
Samuel Martin Segner; Joseph Linton Layne; and Harry
William Levitties.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase,
October 19..................................................... 3403
Testimony of William H. Taylor; and Alvin W. Hall.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase,
October 21..................................................... 3425
Testimony of Elizabeth Bentley.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, November
10............................................................. 3431
Statement of Walter F. Frese.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 12.................................................... 3445
Testimony of Jean A. Arsenault; Sidney Friedlander; Theresa
Mary Chiaro; Albert J. Bottisti; Anna Jegabbi; Emma
Elizabeth Drake; Henry Daniel Hughes; Abden Francisco;
Joseph Arthur Gebhardt; Emanuel Fernandez; Robert Pierson
Northrup; Lawrence Leo Gebo; William J. Mastriani; Gordon
Belgrave; Arthur Lee Owens; John Sardella; and Rudolph
Rissland.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 13.................................................... 3545
Testimony of Lillian Krummel; Dewey Franklin Brashear; Arthur
George; Higeno Hermida; Paul F. Hacko; Alex Henry Klein;
Harold S. Rollins; and John Starling Brooks.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 18.................................................... 3585
Testimony of Karl T. Mabbskka; James John Walsh; Nathaniel
Mills; Robert Goodwin; Henry Canning Archdeacon; Donald
Herbert Morrill; Francis F. Peacock; William Richmond
Wilder; Donald R. Finlayson; Theodore Pappas; George Homes;
Alexander Gregory; Witoutos S. Bolys; Benjamin Alfred; and
Witulad Pierarski.
Transfer of the Ship ``Greater Buffalo,'' December 8............. 3607
Testimony of Paul D. Page, Jr.; and George J. Kolowich.
Personnel Practices in Government--Case of Telford Taylor,
December 8..................................................... 3637
Testimony of Philip Young.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Sidney Glassman testified in public
session on December 16, 1953. Joseph H. Percoff (1908-1986) and
Louise Sarant (1923-1997) testified in public on December 11.
David Ayman (1907-1999), Lawrence Friedman, Elba Chase Nelson
(1889-1967), Herbert S. Bennett, Norman Levinson (1912-1975),
Lawrence Aguimbau, and Perry Seay did not testify in public.]
----------
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 23, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met at 10:30 a.m., pursuant to recess, in
room 29, Federal Building, New York, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy
(chairman) presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr,
staff director; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel; Harold
Rainville, administrative assistant to Senator Dirksen; and
Robert Jones, research assistant to Senator Potter.
Present also: John Adams, counselor to the Secretary of the
Department of the Army; and Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton.
The Chairman. Will you stand and be sworn? In this matter
now in hearing before this committee, do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Glassman. I do.
The Chairman. Will you give the reporter your full name?
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GLASSMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
VICTOR ABRAMOWITZ)
Mr. Glassman. Sidney Glassman.
The Chairman. And how long since you worked in the Signal
Corps Lab?
Mr. Glassman. Excuse me. Where?
The Chairman. How long since you worked for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Glassman. For the Signal Corps?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Glassman. I am sorry.
The Chairman. Have you ever worked for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I worked for the Signal Corps Procurement
District.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Glassman. In 1942.
The Chairman. You started in 1942?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder? I can not
hear you.
Mr. Glassman. I started in February 1942.
The Chairman. And you worked from February '42 until when?
Mr. Glassman. Until about October 1942.
The Chairman. And then did you quit, or were you
discharged?
Mr. Glassman. I quit to go into the army.
The Chairman. And what branch of the army were you in?
Mr. Glassman. I was in the Signal Corps.
The Chairman. In the Signal Corps in the army. And were you
in as a civilian employee?
Mr. Glassman. I don't quite understand.
The Chairman. Were you a civilian, when you were in the
army?
Mr. Glassman. No. I was a member of the armed forces.
The Chairman. What was your rank?
Mr. Glassman. You mean my last rank, I presume?
The Chairman. When you went in.
Mr. Glassman. Sergeant. I was a sergeant when I was
discharged.
The Chairman. You went in as what?
Mr. Glassman. As a private.
The Chairman. You were discharged as a private?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. And when were you discharged?
Mr. Glassman. In December of 1944.
The Chairman. Where were you stationed?
Mr. Glassman. For most of my time, I was stationed in
England, and the last part of my army career prior to the time
I was wounded was in Normandy.
The Chairman. And you were wounded in 1944, were you?
Mr. Glassman. That is right, in July.
The Chairman. In July. And you were discharged in December
of '44?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. An honorable discharge?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, it was a CDD.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Glassman. A CDD.
The Chairman. What is a CDD?
Mr. Glassman. Because of my wounds.
The Chairman. And then where did you go to work?
Mr. Glassman. I went to school.
The Chairman. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Glassman. I went to school at Columbia University.
The Chairman. Columbia. And what courses did you take
there? What did you major in?
Mr. Glassman. Economics and statistics.
The Chairman. Economics and statistics. And when did you
leave Columbia?
Mr. Glassman. I left in about August of 1946, though I
still took a course or two at night after that.
The Chairman. Did you go back to work for the government
then?
Mr. Glassman. No, I did not. I worked for about a month
during the summer for a professor, doing some statistical work
for him. I think he was doing some labor statistics for the
government.
The Chairman. That was professor who?
Mr. Glassman. His name was Hsu, I believe.
The Chairman. How do you spell that?
Mr. Glassman. H-s-u.
The Chairman. What is his first name?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall. I think it was Francis.
The Chairman. Was he Chinese?
Mr. Glassman. I think so.
The Chairman. He was Chinese?
Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
The Chairman. Was he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis----
The Chairman. Will you speak up a little louder?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Then was this professor doing work for the
government?
Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
The Chairman. Do you know what branch of the government he
was working for?
Mr. Glassman. No. He was doing some labor work, labor
research statistics, for something, but I don't recall exactly
for what branch.
The Chairman. And you worked for him for about one month,
in 1946?
Mr. Glassman. No, I think it was 1945.
The Chairman. That is while you were still going to school?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. What did you get paid for that work?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall the exact amount, but I think
the rate was at a P-2 salary at that time.
The Chairman. And after you left school, where did you go
to work?
Mr. Glassman. I went to work for the United Nations.
The Chairman. And what branch, what department, what
agency?
Mr. Glassman. I was in economic affairs.
The Chairman. Who recommended you for that job?
Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Certainly.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. I don't know if I had any direct
recommendations. I had a number of letters from various
professors that one normally gets when you get out of school.
The Chairman. What professors?
Mr. Glassman. Professor Goodrich.
The Chairman. He is from Columbia?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. Professor Mills.
The Chairman. Mills?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I think there was also one--I don't know
whether he was a professor. Eastwood.
The Chairman. Eastwood.
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall any others.
The Chairman. What was Goodrich's first name?
Mr. Glassman. Carter, I believe.
The Chairman. C-a-r-t-e-r?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. And what was Mills' first name?
Mr. Glassman. I don't know, I think it was F.
The Chairman. And Eastwood? Where does he work?
Mr. Glassman. He is at Columbia, too.
The Chairman. He is a teacher?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I believe he is.
The Chairman. You do not know his first name, do you?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall his first name.
The Chairman. Now, was Goodrich known to you to be a member
of the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of the
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. How about Mills?
Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
The Chairman. How about Eastwood?
Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
The Chairman. Then how long did you work in the UN?
Mr. Glassman. About six years.
The Chairman. From '46 until when? '52?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I believe it was until '52.
The Chairman. What time in '52 did you leave the UN?
Mr. Glassman. I think it was in December.
The Chairman. December of last year?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. What salary were you getting in the UN?
Mr. Glassman. In '52? I think it was about $8,500 gross.
The Chairman. Was that tax-exempt?
Mr. Glassman. No. Well, my net salary was around $6,000-
something, on which I paid taxes, and for which the UN
reimbursed me.
The Chairman. In other words, the UN paid you for whatever
taxes you paid; is that right? So that when you arrive at a
figure of $8,500, you take your $6,000 and add to that whatever
they reimbursed you? Is that how you arrived at the figure of
$8,500?
Mr. Glassman. No, there was a UN tax assessment, that
brought you down to $6,000.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist party
while you were in the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage while you were
in the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I was not.
The Chairman. You were not engaged in any espionage?
Mr. Glassman. I was not.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove any classified material
from the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. First of all, what do you mean by
``classified material''?
The Chairman. What do you think I mean? You have been in
the Signal Corps handling it.
Mr. Glassman. I never said that I handled any material. I
don't know what you mean, but if you mean secret material----
The Chairman. Then we will explain to you. Either secret,
confidential, or restricted.
Mr. Glassman. No, I don't think I ever did.
The Chairman. You do not think you ever handled any
classified material?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. How about when you were preparing the
material for the Chinese Communist professor? Did you handle
classified material there?
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I never testified that anybody was a Chinese
Communist professor.
The Chairman. Well, let us drop the ``Communist'' and say:
when you were working for the Chinese professor, Francis Hsu.
Mr. Glassman. I never was aware of any confidential
material.
The Chairman. You did not see anything that was stamped
``confidential,'' ``secret,'' ``restricted''?
Mr. Glassman. Not that I can recall.
The Chairman. When you were working in the UN, did you have
access to any confidential, secret, or restricted material?
Mr. Glassman. I don't know of any confidential material at
the UN.
The Chairman. I did not get your answer.
Mr. Glassman. I said, I don't know of any confidential
material at the UN. Most all the stuff I worked on were public
reports.
The Chairman. Why did you leave the UN?
Mr. Glassman. I was terminated, in December.
The Chairman. I see. And what were the grounds of your
termination? I am not asking you whether the charges against
you were true or not. I am just asking you what the charges
were, the basis upon which you were terminated.
Mr. Glassman. I was terminated for declining to answer
certain questions before a congressional committee.
The Chairman. Did you refuse to answer whether you were an
espionage agent at that time?
Mr. Glassman. I don't think I was ever asked that question.
The Chairman. If you were, you answered that question, did
you?
Mr. Glassman. I am sorry. I didn't quite understand.
The Chairman. If you were asked whether you were an
espionage agent, did you answer the question?
Mr. Glassman. I think you asked me something similar to
that previously, just before.
The Chairman. We are not talking about the grounds for your
being discharged from the UN. You said you refused to answer
certain questions before a congressional committee.
Mr. Glassman. That was not one of the questions that was
asked me.
The Chairman. I see. Okay, were you engaged in espionage at
any time over the past ten years?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. The answer is ``no''? Did you ever associate
with individuals whom you knew or had reason to suspect were
engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Certainly.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
The Chairman. You don't think so?
Mr. Glassman. As far as I know.
The Chairman. Your answer is that as far as you know, you
have not been associated in the past ten years with anyone whom
you knew or had reason to suspect was engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Is that correct?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know anyone who has been engaged in
espionage, to your knowledge?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. The answer is ``no''?
Mr. Glassman. ``No.''
The Chairman. Do you know anyone that you suspect might
have been engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. No. I don't think I would.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
basis of the privilege of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the Communist party
advocates the overthrow of this government by force and
violence?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
same grounds.
The Chairman. Have you ever engaged in any activities
which, in your opinion, were a violation of any of our laws,
the laws of this country, in connection with any Communist
party activities or membership in the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
basis of my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. Mr. Glassman, are you a citizen of the United
States?
Mr. Glassman. I am.
Mr. Jones. As a citizen, would you oppose any group
advocating the overthrow of this government?
Mr. Glassman. I would decline to answer that question, on
the grounds of the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. You served in the army?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I did.
Mr. Jones. While a member of the army, you opposed a group
advocating the overthrow of this government.
Mr. Glassman. Do you mean Nazi Germany?
Mr. Jones. The enemy, yes.
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I fought in the war.
Mr. Jones. Now, you say under the Fifth Amendment you
refuse to answer at the present time whether you would oppose
any group that would overthrow the government?
Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. Does the Communist party, in your mind, advocate
the violent overthrow of this government?
Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever, to your knowledge, see or
handle any classified material, government documents? By
``classified,'' I mean restricted, secret, or confidential.
Mr. Glassman. Not that I can remember.
The Chairman. After you left the UN, where did you go to
work?
Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
The Chairman. What business is that?
Mr. Glassman. Furniture manufacturing.
The Chairman. Furniture? What is the name of that company?
Mr. Glassman. It is the Herrschaft Products.
The Chairman. How do you spell that?
Mr. Glassman. H-e-r-r-s-c-h-a-f-t.
The Chairman. Who were your partners in that, if any?
Mr. Glassman. Well, it is a corporation. I suppose you
would like to know the officers of the corporation?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Glassman. Mr. Herrrschaft, myself, and my wife are the
officers of the corporation.
The Chairman. Do you have a family?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
The Chairman. How old is the oldest one?
Mr. Glassman. The oldest? You mean child, I suppose?
The Chairman. The oldest child.
Mr. Glassman. About four.
The Chairman. Has your wife ever worked for the government?
Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. Except that she was in the armed forces.
The Chairman. Was she a WAC?
Mr. Glassman. She was a WAC.
The Chairman. You took an oath when you entered the army to
uphold the Constitution of the United States. Did you feel then
that you would uphold the Constitution, or did you feel that
this government should be destroyed by force and violence?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
The Chairman. Will you name them?
Mr. Glassman. I have two sisters.
The Chairman. And what are their names?
Mr. Glassman. Sylvia and Doris.
The Chairman. Is their last name the same as yours now?
Mr. Glassman. No, they are not.
The Chairman. What are their names?
Mr. Glassman. Doris Lesansky----
The Chairman. Let me ask you first: Is either of them now
working for the government?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. Have either of them worked for the
government?
Mr. Glassman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Are they married now?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. You need not bother with their names. You are
pretty sure they have not worked for the government. They have
not worked for the government to your knowledge?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. And how many brothers do you have?
Mr. Glassman. I don't have any brothers.
The Chairman. Are your mother and dad living?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. Are they working for the government, or have
they?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. Is your wife a member of the Communist party
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. Was she a member before you married her?
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer, on the basis of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. On the basis of the Fifth Amendment. I assume
you declined to answer the first question on the basis of the
marriage relationship. Is that correct? Or the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Glassman. Both, I think.
The Chairman. Both. You had no connection with the Signal
Corps, then, since December of 1944?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Would you stand and be sworn?
In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
TESTIMONY OF DAVID AYMAN
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. May we have your full name for the record?
Mr. Ayman. David Ayman, A-y-m-a-n. 1612 Lincoln Place,
Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Ayman, were you ever in the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In what year?
Mr. Ayman. 1942 to 1946. Let me clarify that. I was in the
Signal Corps but in the last year I was attached to the air
force.
Mr. Cohn. You were in the Signal Corps but from 1945 to
1946 you were attached to the air force?
Mr. Ayman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Were you stationed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Ayman. Two years: 1942 to 1944.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you stationed when in the air force?
Mr. Ayman. Hawaii.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work down at Monmouth?
Mr. Ayman. I was working in Officer Candidate School.
Mr. Cohn. For two years?
Mr. Ayman. I was drafted in April 1942. I took my basic
training, three or four weeks specialized training, then was
sent to Officers Candidate School and I got a commission in
October, approximately, 1942 and then I was assigned to
instruct at OCS. That was the first assignment.
Mr. Cohn. What do you do now?
Mr. Ayman. I am a school teacher.
Mr. Cohn. Do you teach at the Samuel Tilden High School?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Ayman. I have been at Samuel Tilden since 1936.
Mr. Cohn. You have taught there continuously since 1936?
Mr. Ayman. Except time in the army or leave of absence for
official business.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Teachers Union? \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ Accused of Communist leanings, the Teachers Union of New York
was expelled from the American Federation of Teachers in 1940 and
affiliated with the United Public Workers of America, a CIO union. In
1952 and 1953 it was investigated by the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been associated with any Communists
in the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. Bella Dodd is a Communist.\2\ That is the only
one officially I would know. I know no other one of my own
knowledge.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ Dr. Bella V. Dodd (1904-1969) served as legislative
representative for the Teachers Union from 1938 to 1944, before
formally joining the Communist party and being elected to its national
committee. She was expelled from the party in 1949, and later discussed
her experiences in testimony before the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee and in an autobiography, School of Darkness (New York:
P.J. Kenedy, 1954).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Cohn. Do you have reasonable grounds to believe there
are others who are Communists?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, with the exception of Bella Dodd,
you have never known a person you believed to be a Communist in
the Teachers Union. Is that right?
Mr. Ayman. That is right, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever represent any teachers, Teachers
Union members, with the New York Board of Education in any
respect?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Ayman. I represented some people before Moskoff, who
does some work for the Board of Education. He is the counsel
for the committee for the Board of Education interrogating
individuals, I presume, on the basis of information he has
about them.
Mr. Cohn. And you represented some of those persons?
Mr. Ayman. As teacher-advisor.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of those persons Communists?
Mr. Ayman. None of them ever told me they were Communists
and I never asked them.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of them claim the Fifth Amendment when
questioned?
Mr. Ayman. No. The Fifth Amendment was not claimed in my
presence.
Mr. Cohn. Was the Fifth Amendment ever claimed?
Mr. Ayman. No, not while I was there.
Mr. Cohn. I don't care whether you were there. Did you ever
hear that any of those persons you represented as teacher-
advisor claimed the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I never heard it.
Mr. Cohn. How many people did you so represent?
Mr. Ayman. Eight or ten.
Mr. Cohn. What are their names?
Mr. Ayman. Let's see. The last one was Lee Naguid. That is
the last one I represented. The one before that was Louis
Auerbach. Another one I represented was Samuel Chapman. The
other names don't occur to me at the moment. Those are the last
three.
One other, Mr. Klein. I don't know what his first name is.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of those teachers suspended as a result
of the hearing before Mr. Moskoff?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. One, Auerbach. I didn't represent Mr.
Auerbach before Mr. Moskoff, when he appeared. I represented
Mr. Auerbach before Mr. Perch.
Mr. Cohn. Now, how many of these were suspended as a
result----
Mr. Ayman. The only one I know, can think of, is Mr.
Auerbach. The others have not been suspended.
Mr. Cohn. Why was Mr. Auerbach suspended?
Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer any questions that Mr.
Perch asked him.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't he claim the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership.
Mr. Cohn. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did that give you reasonable grounds to believe
he was a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You don't think somebody who refuses to answer
the question of whether or not they are a Communist, you don't
think that furnishes reasonable grounds to believe that person
is a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. It is hard for me to make a judgment of a thing
like that. There are things a person may believe in. He may
feel this type of thing doesn't involve this type of activity.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe Communists should teach in the New
York school system?
Mr. Ayman. I believe a person ought to be judged.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe a Communist party member should
teach in the New York City school system? That is a very simple
question. Just answer ``yes'' or ``no.''
Mr. Ayman. Well, my own feeling about this, that answer is
not quite as simple as you put it.
Mr. Cohn. Answer ``yes'' or ``no,'' then you can make any
explanation you care to give us.
Mr. Ayman. My answer would be ``yes,'' provided, of course,
this person did not engage in activities in the school system
in which he used his position to officially propagandize for
the Communist party or any other group.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think that a member of the Communist party
would not use any position he held to propagandize and attempt
in every way to aid the cause of the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Well, I would say this. Any person who believed
strongly in any position he held, it might be possible for him,
not necessarily and I believe necessarily that he would not
actually use his position to do that. It is possible for him to
do that.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe it is possible for a Communist
party member not to use any position he holds?
Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that?
Mr. Cohn. I think you should be. You are teaching children
in the public schools in New York.
Mr. Ayman. My function as advisor was to see that these
people don't get rattled. I am not legal counsel. I can give
them no legal advice. They wanted somebody to go up there and
make sure they were represented.
The Chairman. Is it your position that a man who is a
member of the Communist party should not be barred from a
teaching job unless it is first proven that he is using his
membership-unless it is proved he is teaching communism to his
students?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. That was not my position.
The Chairman. Do you think that mere membership in the
Communist party and nothing else should bar him from teaching?
Mr. Ayman. Off-hand, I would say no.
The Chairman. You would say it takes more than that?
Mr. Ayman. That is my opinion. My feeling is this.
The Chairman. What more would it take?
Mr. Ayman. Some act, some either technical act as a teacher
in the classroom or in connection with the school system which
he used to actually propagandize in one form or another about
this proposition that should cause him to be eliminated.
The Chairman. You realize the more clever the Communist is,
the less possibility of catching him in the acts?
Mr. Ayman. That is possible.
The Chairman. You might catch the dumb ones, but the clever
ones you wouldn't catch. You would say that unless you catch
the Communist, know that he attended Communist meetings, unless
you catch him in the overt act of propagandizing, unless you
catch him doing something like that, you should keep him on as
a teacher?
Mr. Ayman. Not only Communist, anybody else. Fascists. I
believe in some other kinds of systems, the same thing is true
about those individuals as well.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the Communist
movement?
Mr. Ayman. Not enough to make judgment about it.
The Chairman. Do you know what is meant by being under
Communist party discipline?
Mr. Ayman. Well, in my mind, under discipline, he accepts
the dictates from the Communist party. I assume it means----
The Chairman. Do you mean in good standing of the party and
must obey orders?
Mr. Ayman. I can't make such a statement. I am not a
member.
The Chairman. If you were told now--witnesses have
testified over and over, witnesses the government considers
reliable men, who were active in the Communist party--Bella
Dodd whom you knew testified such is the case; that a member in
good standing is under Communist discipline and obeys orders.
Would you have any reason to doubt that? Do you have any
information to the contrary?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I do not have information to the
contrary.
The Chairman. Don't you think a teacher, regardless of how
good a teacher he might be, should be a free agent and should
not be under the discipline of any organizations, particularly
the Communist party dominated by Moscow?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I believe that not only about those
but everybody else.
The Chairman. Do you still say someone under Communist
party discipline should be allowed to teach, realizing they are
not free agents, no freedom of expression but expression of the
Communist line. Do you still say you think such a man should be
teaching our children unless he is caught in the overt act?
Mr. Ayman. My own feeling is, as I said before, that is a
belief I have. Whether it is a good belief or a bad one, it
would be a question of somebody besides myself to be able to
answer.
The Chairman We are not trying to change your beliefs. We
are just curious as to what your beliefs are on communism. We
are not concerned with your other beliefs. We are concerned
with your belief or attitude toward the international
conspiracy.
Mr. Ayman. The international conspiracy, I am not in a
position to make judgment. I am not sufficiently well
acquainted with it. It is not in my field. If it is, I think
government officials knowing these facts, being aware of it,
they ought to take appropriate action. If they can show that
persons have performed acts as part of this conspiracy, well,
obviously they ought to do something about it.
Mr. Jones. Are you married?
Mr. Ayman. No, not now.
Mr. Jones. You were before?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
Mr. Jones. Was your wife a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Jones. Do you have any children?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Jones. I assume if you did have children you would not
object to them receiving their entire education under a
Communist teacher?
Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Jones. You said it.
Mr. Ayman. If these people were Communists and if they did
not use their position to propagandize for their beliefs, I
would have no objection to them any more than a person who is a
Fascist not using his position. I would say it was perfectly
all right, American principal. If they were using that
position, then I would say that person should not be permitted
to teach my children or anybody else's.
The Chairman. In other words, you wouldn't object to having
a Communist teacher teach your children?
Mr. Ayman. No.
The Chairman Would you have any objection to having a man
convicted of rape a number of times, even though be was not
caught committing rape in the classroom----
Mr. Ayman. I don't think you can make that comparison. I
assume a man convicted of rape would be sentenced to jail for a
number of years and not permitted to get a license. I don't see
how those two things are relevant.
The Chairman. Suppose he did not advocate rape in the
classroom, but had been convicted several times; that he was
not in jail. Would you have any objection?
Mr. Ayman. I don't know how he would get a license. If he
didn't use his position in the classroom, I don't see what the
objection would be.
The Chairman. If you were looking for a babysitter, you and
your wife were going out----
Mr. Ayman. I would think twice before using him as a
babysitter.
The Chairman. Do you still have a reserve commission in the
army?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been in the Reserves?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were never in the army?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I was in the army. I was in what is
called AUS.
The Chairman. What is AUS?
Mr. Ayman. Army of the United States as distinguished from
the United States Army--people commissioned through the ranks
through OCS or some such things.
The Chairman. Did you have a commission?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman What was your rank?
Mr. Ayman. I came out as a 1st lieutenant.
The Chairman You no longer have the reserve commission?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman No connection with the army?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Jones. What do you teach at Samuel Tilden?
Mr. Ayman. Mathematics.
Mr. Jones. Would you agree with this statement; that the
Communist party is a conspiracy to accomplish the violent
overthrow of this government?
Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment of this.
I don't know enough about this business.
Mr. Jones. Sir, you have been a teacher a good number of
years. Don't you read the newspapers?
Mr. Ayman. Yes. I know people believe it. I know it is
possible to believe it. On the basis of my own knowledge, my
own analysis of this thing, I don't have information to be able
to make such a judgment.
Mr. Rainville. How would you determine whether they were
using their position to propagandize on your children or any
children in your care.
Mr. Ayman. Somebody would have to observe these
individuals.
Mr. Rainville. But this individual would not be you? Who is
going to do that?
Mr. Ayman. It is the supervisor's function to observe the
teacher's fitness to teach.
Mr. Rainville. But your particular job while you are a
teacher was to represent those teachers against such
supervisory controls? You said you were a Teachers Union
representative.
Mr. Ayman. I was advisor to those people, and as such I
appeared before the supervisory body, Mr. Moskoff, to help the
teachers. I didn't come to protect these people. My function
was, if I thought or they thought, the individual, that he was
being asked questions which he felt wasn't appropriate, he had
a right to ask me my reaction. My reaction in almost ever case
was: ``This is your job here.''
The Chairman. Did you advise Auerbach?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I didn't advise him.
The Chairman. The question was: Did you advise Auerbach to
answer in regard to his Communist connections?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did he discuss that with you?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were there as his advisor?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, I was his advisor. As a matter of fact, I
met him five minutes before we went in to see Mr. Perch. In
other words, here is what happened. Somebody would call and ask
me if I would be willing to appear with this individual and I
would say, ``Well, this person is entitled to be represented,
to get some person who will represent them, and I will be
willing to go.'' In most cases I hadn't seen some of these
people. Met them maybe five minutes before we went into Mr.
Moskoff's office.
The Chairman. After Mr. Auerbach made his statement, did
you make any statement in his behalf before Mr. Moskoff or
whoever was there?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do I understand that you did nothing
whatsoever in the hearing of Mr. Auerbach?
Mr. Ayman. Nothing officially.
Mr. Auerbach, when he was questioned he called me aside and
asked me if he should answer. My answer to him was: ``You are
involved. You have to decide for yourself what you are going to
do.'' The word advisor, in this case, is not technically
correct verbiage. I can't really give a person advice which
might involve a legal question. I am not qualified.
The Chairman. In any event, when he called you aside and
asked you whether he should answer these questions about
alleged Communist activities, you didn't advise him to answer
or not to answer?
Mr. Ayman. That is correct.
The Chairman. So you didn't feel he should answer?
Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I wasn't in a position to make judgment.
The Chairman. Do you think now that teachers should tell
Mr. Moskoff when they are called before him whether or not they
are Communists?
Mr. Ayman. If these people feel they want to tell him.
The Chairman. I am asking you whether you think they
should?
Mr. Ayman. For myself, I would answer.
The Chairman. You are an advisor-teacher and I am asking
you a simple question. Do you think teachers who are called
before Mr. Moskoff should tell him truthfully about their
Communist party activities? Do you think that a teacher called
before Mr. Moskoff or any responsible member of the Board of
Education should truthfully tell about any Communist activities
in which they have been engaged or do you think they should
refuse?
Mr. Ayman. Each one must decide. It is a very hard thing to
tell somebody. Each person must decide on the basis of his own
convictions as to what answer he should give. I can't put
myself in the position of telling these people what they should
or should not do.
The Chairman. Do you still think you are a competent
advisor to these teachers if you don't know?
Mr. Ayman. I am a competent advisor only in the sense that
I would go and appear before Mr. Moskoff to give advice. As to
whether or not they should answer or not, that I am not
qualified to do.
The Chairman. As of today you can't decide whether all
teachers should be required to honestly tell about their
Communist activities to responsible superiors?
Mr. Ayman. That is substantially what I said before.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings of the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Were you ever asked to attend meetings of the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend meetings then or later
that you thought were Communist party meetings or dominated by
Communists?
Mr. Ayman. I don't believe so.
The Chairman. Would you say that the Teachers Union is
Communist dominated?
Mr. Ayman. Some people say it is. From my own knowledge I
am not prepared to make such a statement.
The Chairman. You are a member of that union?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you hold any office?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. And the general feeling is that the greater
part of the teachers are Communists in the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. There are a number of people who believe that.
The Chairman. That is the general feeling, isn't it?
Mr. Ayman. I would say ``yes.''
The Chairman. Do you know that teachers who are anti-
Communist do not join that union?
Mr. Ayman. Probably so, although there are people in it who
are anti-Communist. I don't know.
The Chairman. You are still a member?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you been a member?
Mr. Ayman. I have been a member of the union since 1932 or
1933.
The Chairman. Do you intend to retain your membership?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, unless it is declared illegal. From my
point of view it represents the best interests of teachers.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask Mr. Auerbach whether he was
a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask him whether he taught
communism in the schools?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. But you still felt you should represent him
and not ask him whether he was a Communist or not and not ask
him whether he taught Communism in the schools?
Mr. Ayman. It is a difficult problem in the school system.
People who are called up before Mr. Moskoff have to have
someone represent them. They are asked to bring along a
teacher-adviser for any reason. If you struck some child you
have a right to be represented by a teacher-advisor. It is
obvious that lots of people would not go up as an advisor,
because as you can gather from this, it is implied that one who
goes up is himself a Communist.
The Chairman. You said you went up as advisor, yet you did
not advise them. The man called you back and asked you for your
advice as to whether he should tell the truth about his
Communist activities, and you say you refused to advise him.
What did you advise him on?
Mr. Ayman. I gave no advice. My function is if there is any
difficulties.
The Chairman. What kind of difficulty?
Mr. Ayman. Suppose they would say, ``Are you a member of
the Communist party?''
The Chairman. He did, didn't he?
Mr. Ayman. Either he would turn to me and say, ``Should I
answer that question'' and I would say, ``That is up to you.''
The Chairman. So you wouldn't advise him?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. So you weren't there to advise?
Mr. Ayman. The technical term they used was ``advisor.''
That is the term they used. If they said teacher-
representative, it would be more in keeping with the meaning of
the way the person does.
The Chairman. Did you talk to Mr. Moskoff in his behalf?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you talk to anyone in his behalf?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. In all cases where you represented people as
advisor, were they accused of Communist activities?
Mr. Ayman. Well, what they were accused of, Mr. Moskoff and
in one case Mr. Perch, that was Mr. Auerbach, the statement was
made that there was reason to believe they were connected with
the Communist party or Communist activities.
The Chairman. In other words, all cases represented by you,
they were accused of Communist activities.
Mr. Ayman. The statement was made that there was reason to
believe. There was not an overt statement in some cases that
they were actually engaged in Communist party activities.
The Chairman. Did you ask them before you advised them
whether the statements were true?
Mr. Ayman. They weren't given any charges----
The Chairman. Call it statement, allegations----
Mr. Ayman. No, sir, I did not.
The Chairman. So you felt you could advise them without
knowing if the charges were true?
Mr. Ayman. The word advise--I was simply a representative
not to perform technical duties.
The Chairman. How could you advise then if you didn't ask
them?
Mr. Ayman. That is not the function of the so-called
representative.
The Chairman. You say you have never been solicited to join
the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Maybe Bella Dodd may have solicited me.
The Chairman. Don't you remember?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever pay any money that went to the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Do you subscribe to the Daily Worker?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any Communist papers?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you belong to any Communist fronts, other
than the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever belonged to any organizations
that have been listed by the attorney general as subversive or
Communist fronts?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
Mr. Rainville. It is my understanding you did not think it
was objectionable to have Communist teachers so long as he
didn't use his position to propagandize, so if these teachers
said they were Communists, you would still have defended them
since you think that is all right?
Mr. Ayman. If they did not use their position in any way.
Mr. Rainville. Then that is the reason you didn't ask them.
You didn't care?
Mr. Ayman. I certainly wasn't going to ask them.
The Chairman. Weren't you interested in whether they were
teaching their students communism?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You weren't interested?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I thought you said that was the one condition
under which Communists should not be allowed to teach and you
didn't even ask.
Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment. I don't
watch them as teachers. I am a classroom teacher myself. That
is the function of those who are supervisors.
Mr. Cohn. The Teachers Union is Communist-dominated?
Mr. Ayman. That is what people say. I think it isn't. I
think I made that clear. The Teachers Union represents the best
interests of teachers and as long as it does that, I think it
is a good organization.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Rose Russell?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. I don't know whether she is or not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is?
Mr. Ayman. You can ask me about anybody. Unless I know
whether they are or not I have no evidence, no way of judging.
Mr. Cohn. Unless you have evidence of your own you never
pronounce judgment on anything?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You didn't answer counsel's question as to
whether or not you think the Communist Teachers Union is
Communist-dominated?
Mr. Ayman. I say people believe----
The Chairman. Do you think it is? You have been in it a
long time?
Mr. Ayman. From my experience I don't think so. My own
opinion. As long as it represents the best interest of
teachers----
Mr. Rainville. You have been in the Teachers Union since
1932 but I thought you said you didn't become a teacher until
1936?
Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I didn't say that. I started to teach in
1927. They asked me about Tilden High School. I don't think I
started to teach there until 1936.
The Chairman. You can consider yourself under subpoena and
we will notify your counsel when you are to return.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE FRIEDMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSELS,
WILLIAM A. CONSIDINE AND JACK FISHER)
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? In the matter
now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Friedman. I do.
The Chairman. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Considine. William A. Considine, 744 Broad Street,
Newark.
The Chairman. Will the witness give his full name for the
record?
Mr. Friedman. Lawrence Friedman.
The Chairman. Who is the other gentleman?
Mr. Considine. Associate counsel.
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Considine. Jack Fisher.
The Chairman. I don't think either of you gentlemen have
appeared before the committee before, so I will run over the
rules of the committee briefly.
The witness can advise with counsel any time he cares to.
He can interrupt the testimony. If you want a confidential
meeting with your client, we will arrange a room for that at
any time during the meeting.
Mr. Cohn. Are you at Belock Instrument Corporation now?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
there?
Mr. Friedman. Almost three years.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
Mr. Friedman. Reeves Instrument Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. For how long?
Mr. Friedman. Five years.
Mr. Cohn. And what did you do before that?
Mr. Friedman. I was in the navy, sir, for two years. I
worked at Camp Evans Signal Corps Laboratory for two years.
The Chairman. What kind of work did you do in the navy?
Mr. Friedman. I was an electronics technicians mate in the
navy.
Mr. Cohn. When were you at Evans?
Mr. Friedman. 1942 to 1944.
Mr. Cohn. When you were at Evans who were you living with?
Mr. Friedman. Ralph Dunn.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
Mr. Friedman. I was living at a rooming house in Ashbury
Park and I also lived in a dormitory at the camp installation.
Mr. Cohn. Who else lived at that rooming house?
Mr. Friedman. Nobody associated with the laboratory. There
were several other girls and boys, but nobody associated with
the lab.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir. I met him when I was working at
Reeves.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Friedman. I worked at Reeves from 1946 to 1951 and it
was during that period.
Mr. Cohn. You had not known him before?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work?
Mr. Friedman. I worked on the third floor in the tool
design department and he worked on the second floor in the main
engineering office.
Mr. Cohn. And did you know him socially at all?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir, not at all.
Mr. Cohn. How frequently did you see him around Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Very infrequently. We were not associated on
the same project.
Mr. Cohn. While Sobell was at Reeves were you handling any
project for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Any classified?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did they involve radar?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work on any of those projects?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you do any work on the same project Sobell
was working on?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Are you familiar with the projects in general
terms?
Mr. Friedman. I know what the projects are, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know the project Sobell worked on?
Mr. Friedman. I only knew it by name. I was not closely
associated with those projects.
Mr. Cohn. What do you recall?
Mr. Friedman. I believe it was a plotting board program for
the Air Corps. As far as I know, that is the only project he
was associated with.
Mr. Cohn. What else did they have there at the time you
were there?
Mr. Friedman. Well, of course we had many programs. We were
doing the Mark 5 Bomb Site for the navy. Of course, we had
these Signal Corps programs and the plotting board program.
Mr. Cohn. What is the plotting board program?
Mr. Friedman. Sir, I am not too familiar with it, just in
general terms. It was plotting the inside of a trailer.
May I ask one question? Some of this information may be
classified.
It was associated with 584 Signal Corps Radar. That is just
about all I know about the program, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did it have anything to do with 527 and 627?
Mr. Friedman. I don't know what that means. I am not
familiar with those designations.
Mr. Cohn. Now, in connection with the Signal Corps project,
would people come from time to time from Evans Laboratory down
to Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of them speak with Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You can recall no instance where anyone came from
Monmouth and spoke with Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. No, I don't, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Friedman. Aaron Coleman was the project engineer on the
414A project. I was on the 414A program. I was one of the
mechanical engineers on the program.
The Chairman. As you perhaps know, the army intelligence
raided Coleman's home and picked up some forty-three secret
documents which would be of great value to the enemy.
Do you have any knowledge of his having removed those
documents?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir. No knowledge whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Friedman, do you know a man by the name of
Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When did you meet Mr. Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. I would say 1949. He was associated in some
fashion with the 414A program and 414A Signal Corps project.
During the demonstration of the program I recall he did come up
to Reeves Instrument Corporation to witness the demonstration.
Mr. Cohn. When he came to Reeves did you see him in the
company of Morton Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. Did Sobell witness the demonstration?
Mr. Friedman. I don't think so.
Mr. Cohn. How many people worked at Reeves then?
Mr. Friedman. I think, at that time, around one thousand.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether Greenblum was associated
with Sobell up there?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir. I do not.
Mr. Cohn. That was the first time you met Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him better?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the only time you saw him?
Mr. Friedman. Subsequent to that time I have met him twice.
At the present time the Belock Instrument Corporation is about
to complete a Signal Corps contract and Greenblum was in some
small fashion associated with this program, associated with one
phase of the program. I believe I had occasion to meet him
twice.
Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Belock, head of your company, formerly
with Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he the one who hired Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. I can't answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Is this Belock Company doing classified work with
the Signal Corps now?
Mr. Friedman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I don't have anything more of this
witness.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never attended Young Communist League
meetings?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Never contributed to it?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. I may say in your presence that we will not
give you to the press or anyone else unless you give it
yourself. We have got to call people who are loyal in order to
pick up the loose ends. If your name is given out some people
might assume that you are guilty, so for that reason unless you
give them your name, it will not be given out.
Mr. Friedman. I would like to say, sir, that I think the
committee is doing a wonderful job and I hope you continue to
do so.
TESTIMONY OF ELBA CHASE NELSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
HAROLD I. CRAMMER)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Nelson. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get the name of counsel?
Mr. Crammer. Harold I. Crammer, of Witt and Cammer.
Mr. Cohn. May we have your name?
Mrs. Nelson. Elba Chase Nelson.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mrs. Nelson. Winter, New Hampshire.
Mr. Cohn. What is your address?
Mrs. Nelson. The address is Hillsboro Post Office.
Mr. Cohn. Are you an organizer for the Communist party?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Cohn. On what grounds?
Mrs. Nelson. It is my privilege to decline to answer under
the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. If you feel a truthful answer might tend to
incriminate you?
Mrs. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in 1936 an organizer for the Communist
party in New England?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Did you at that time know a man by the name of
Haym Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to tell us whether or not you know Dr.
Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. So the record will be clear, Yamins was the
liaison between the Signal Corps and MIT and other labs on
radar until this investigation started.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins spend time in your home on
frequent occasions between 1936 and 1949.
Mrs. Nelson. I invoke the Fifth Amendment and I decline
answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins attend Communist party meetings at
your home in New Hampshire?
Mrs. Nelson. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the
same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present at meetings attended by Mr.
Yamins and Dr. Miriam Udins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard Mr. Yamins discuss classified
radar material?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Has he discussed that in the presence of members
of the Communist party?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen Mr. Yamins recently?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for the information. One
other question; I assume you will decline to answer it. Isn't
it a fact that your home was used as headquarters for Communist
cell meetings at which certain members of the Signal Corps
discussed the work they were doing?
Mrs. Nelson. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to say
that I know absolutely nothing about Fort Monmouth. I had never
heard of the town, didn't know where it was located until I
read it in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about Mr. Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about any of the men
working in the Signal Corps Laboratory?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer. As I said, I had never
heard of Fort Monmouth or Evans Laboratory before I read it in
the newspaper.
The Chairman. You had never heard Yamins mention the
laboratory at Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that. You just got
through telling us you had never heard the name Fort Monmouth
or Evans Laboratory, so we can ask you some questions.
Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else in your home
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Nelson. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you sure of that?
Mrs. Nelson. Very sure.
The Chairman. I want to tell you for your benefit that we
have evidence to the contrary so you will be fully protected
and can't claim at some future time that you were trapped into
this.
Having that information, will you tell us again that you
never heard Yamins or anyone else mention Evans, the Evans
Laboratory or Fort Monmouth? Is that correct.
Mrs. Nelson. Will you repeat that.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else ever
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth? By Evans I refer to Evans
Laboratory at Fort Monmouth.
Mrs. Nelson. I want to repeat that I have never heard of
Fort Monmouth until I read it in the newspapers.
The Chairman. What is the answer to my question? Yes or No?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever see any material brought into
your home by anyone either stamped secret, confidential or
restricted?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear radar discussed in your
home?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Are you on the payroll of the Communist party
as of today?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist in 1950?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Jones. Mrs. Nelson, if anyone stated to the contrary
that Professor Yamins had discussed radar material and
information in your home, would they be lying?
Mrs. Nelson. They would be lying, sir.
The Chairman. You may step down. You will consider yourself
under subpoena. We may want you later. We will give your lawyer
sufficient notice.
Mrs. Nelson. I would like to say to the committee, I wasn't
served with the subpoena until yesterday morning at 9:30 and I
live over three hundred miles from New York and my husband is
ill. I would like a little more notice, although I see no
reason why I was called here in the first place.
The Chairman. May I have the record clear at this time that
apparently you weren't found by the marshal up there until
yesterday, but you had notice a week ago that you were being
called and made a statement to the press at that time about it.
If the marshal can't find you, if you absent yourself from your
home, that is not the fault of the committee.
Let me ask you this?
Is it correct that you made a statement to the papers in
regard to being called?
Mrs. Nelson. I did not make a statement. The reporter
called me and informed me I had been subpoenaed.
Do you imply that the marshal was at my home trying to
serve the subpoena?
The Chairman. The marshal had been looking for you a week.
Mrs. Nelson. I beg your pardon. You are absolutely
incorrect. I was home. I want to make that very clear.
The Chairman. Ask the officer to remove the witness.
Mrs. Nelson. I can walk.
The Chairman. We will notify your counsel when we want you
back here for public sessions.
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT S. BENNETT
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Bennett. I do.
The Chairman. Your name is Herbert Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. Herbert S. Bennett.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed Mr. Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. Dynamic Electronic Corporation of New York.
Mr. Cohn. And do they do any government work there?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Any classified work?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. For what branch of the service?
Mr. Bennett. We have classified contracts with the U.S. Air
Force.
Mr. Cohn. Does any of it involve radar?
Mr. Bennett. Not radar as such, no. It is electronic
communications would be closer I think.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Bennett. Since March 1952.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work before that?
Mr. Bennett. Signal Corps. Electronic Warfare Center, Fort
Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you working at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Bennett. Since August 1950. I am not sure of the month
but it was 1950.
Mr. Cohn. What did you do before that?
Mr. Bennett. I was an engineer at the U.S. Air Force,
Watson Laboratories in Eatontown, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you at Eatontown?
Mr. Bennett. Since June 1946.
Mr. Cohn. And where did you work before June of 1946?
Mr. Bennett. In the Armed Service Signal Corps from October
1942 until June of 1946 except for terminal leave which
actually ended in August.
Mr. Cohn. Were you station at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Bennett. For a period of, I think, approximately
February 1943 until May 1943.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you from 1940 to 1942?
Mr. Bennett. That would probably cover three phases, I
imagine. I was with New York Signal Corps Procurement District
from March 1939 and I think that whole outfit moved to
Philadelphia.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever part of Signal Corps Inspection?
Mr. Bennett. I was in the New York Signal Corps Procurement
Division, Inspection Division.
Mr. Cohn. During the time you were working in the Signal
Corps did you have access to classified material?
Mr. Bennett. Certainly while in the service.
Mr. Cohn. Is there any point which you were not cleared for
classified material?
Mr. Bennett. I think at the very beginning I filled out
some forms which were probably for clearance.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Bennett. Well, I was told he was at CCNY. I actually do
not remember him from there. He was in inspection. I vaguely
remember him from inspection.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him when you were in Signal Corps
Inspection?
Mr. Bennett. I probably came into contact with him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any recollection of coming into
contact with him?
Mr. Bennett. I have not. There were many inspectors.
Mr. Cohn. You don't remember him being there at all?
Mr. Bennett. I remember a name. I came there in March 1939
and----
Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether you knew him there?
Mr. Bennett. I want to explain that it is rather vague in
my mind.
Mr. Cohn. I would just rather have you tell me whether or
not you knew him?
Mr. Bennett. I can't honestly say I knew him. I remember a
name. There were three Rosenbergs on the roster.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Bennett. I would say vaguely. I don't think I remember
him from there.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember him from any place?
Mr. Bennett. That would be the only place for even a casual
contact as far as I know.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work with you at any time?
Mr. Bennet. He never worked directly with me.
Mr. Cohn. You mean on your assignment as inspectors?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he ever under your supervision?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. He did not?
Mr. Bennett. I was assistant to the chief of the inspection
division and in that sense if he was under my supervision, it
would be in a very vague way.
Mr. Cohn. Now, in as far as you recall-you don't recall
ever having met him?
Mr. Bennett. I cannot truthfully recall having met him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Bennett. Morton Sobell I recall from school. He was in
electrical engineering school at the same time I was at CCNY. I
knew him there.
Mr. Cohn. You knew him there?
Mr. Bennett. Yes. I think I was definitely in classes that
he was in at that time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I had no relations with him that
would even tend to bring that to my attention.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know any of your classmates as
Communists?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I knew of no classmates who were
Communists. I would like to explain why.
Mr. Cohn. Don't explain why if you don't know.
Were you ever asked to go to a meeting of the Young
Communist League?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever asked to go to Communist meetings
of any kind?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. None of the people in school with you or at the
Signal Corps at Fort Monmouth did anything or said anything
which might lead you to believe that they might be Communist?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I have nothing further.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. You are excused.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN LEVINSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WALTER N. KERNAN)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Levinson. Yes. I do.
The Chairman. Could we get the name of counsel for the
record?
Mr. Kernan. Walter Kernan, Walter N., associated with
Choate, Hall and Stewart, 30 State Street, Boston,
Massachusetts.
The Chairman. Now, will the witness give his name for the
record?
Mr. Levinson. Norman Levinson.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Levinson. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been at
MIT?
Mr. Levinson. Since February 1937.
Mr. Cohn. What type of work have you been doing?
Mr. Levinson. Mathematics.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing before you began teaching
there?
Mr. Levinson. I am an academic appointee.
Mr. Cohn. Now, have you ever done any laboratory work?
Mr. Levinson. At MIT? I have not.
Mr. Cohn. At any place?
Mr. Levinson. Laboratory work, no.
Wait a while. I was associated with someone who did some
laboratory work at one time, at Worchester.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. I do not. I have never met him. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know who he is?
Mr. Levinson. I read about him in the newspapers. I heard
about him from Mr. [Stuart C.] Rand, who I know as an attorney
and who is the attorney of Mr. Yamins. I heard about him
yesterday when I went to the office of Choate, Hall and
Stewart.
Mr. Cohn. I assume that Mr. Rand advised you of the fact
that Mr. Yamins who is under inquiry by this subcommittee
testified here that you were one of the persons he had grounds
to believe was a Communist? Was that called to your attention?
Mr. Levinson. Do you want me to say what Mr. Rand told me?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. I don't care particularly what Mr. Rand told
you. I want to know if he communicated to you the fact that Mr.
Yamins has testified that you were one of the persons he
believed to be a Communist.
Mr. Levinson. Mr. Rand told me Mr. Yamins had said that he
had reason to believe that my sister was a Communist. Mr. Rand
wasn't sure whether he knew I was a Communist or not.
Mr. Cohn. Is your sister named Pauline Levinson?
Mr. Levinson. That was her maiden name. Her name is Nobel
now.
Mr. Cohn. What does she do now?
Mr. Levinson. She is a housewife.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever worked at MIT?
Mr. Levinson. No.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever done any work for the government?
Mr. Levinson. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about her husband?
Mr. Levinson. He is a physician.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever followed any calling, done anything
other than being a housewife?
Mr. Levinson. At what date would you like me to begin?
Mr. Cohn. Just give it to me in general terms.
Mr. Levinson. She was a student at Radcliffe, graduated in
1934, majored in mathematics. She decided she didn't like
mathematics and went to the New York School for Social Work.
She took the course there and was a social worker in New York.
I don't know exactly what agencies. Several, I believe, and she
got married sometime, I believe, in the early forties.
Mr. Cohn. Has your sister ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. When Mr. Rand told me her name had come up I
phoned her and talked with her. She doesn't recall ever meeting
Mr. Yamins. However, Mr. Rand mentioned that Mr. Yamins had
passed by the home of my parents where my sister and I lived
with a man by the name of Wechsler, Harry Wechsler. I remember
Mr. Wechsler. He was a corrector for a professor at Harvard and
I took some courses as an undergraduate. I do know the name
Wechsler. This was the phone conversation. Mr. Kernans was in
the office of Mr. Rand upstairs and I gathered Mr. Yamins was
in the room with him. Mr. Yamins told him there was a bulldog
in the house and there was a Boston Terrier there. There is
that evidence. That was the summer of 1937.
Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether your sister has
ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. Yes. She told me on the phone that she joined
the Communist party sometime after she came to this New York
School of Social Work, sometime after the fall of 1937. In the
first year of that school she joined the Communist party. In
about 1942 she began to drift away.
Mr. Cohn. What was she doing when she joined the party?
Mr. Levinson. She was a student at the New York School for
Social Workers.
Mr. Cohn. Was she a member of the party in New York City?
Mr. Levinson. Presumably.
Mr. Cohn. From 1937 to 1942?
Mr. Levinson. Either 1937--she wasn't clear. She didn't
remember exactly. In September 1937 she went to the New York
School and in her first academic year there, 1937 or 1938, she
joined the Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever talked with the FBI? Do you know?
Mr. Levinson. I don't know but I think she probably hasn't.
The Chairman. Would she be willing? I know you can't speak
for your sister, but do you think she would be willing to talk
to the bureau and give them all the information she might have,
even though the information would be rather old?
Mr. Levinson. I'd be willing to call her up and try to
persuade her.
Mr. Cohn. But you have no recollection of Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. No. I remember Harry Wechsler. Mr. Yamins can
describe the place. He remembered the dog. In all probability
he had been at the house. I got the impression from Mr. Rand
that Mr. Yamins is an honest man. It seems quite likely. My
sister was a good looking girl and any number of men passed by
to see her.
Mr. Cohn. You do not know Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. I don't believe I met him.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, I was a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. When did you join the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. I joined the Communist party in the fall of
1931.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you join?
Mr. Levinson. Boston, Massachusetts.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing at the time you joined?
Mr. Levinson. I was an instructor in mathematics at MIT.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you remain in
the party?
Mr. Levinson. About eight years, a little less. 1937 to
1945. I think I was all out by the spring of 1945.
Mr. Cohn. Have you talked to the FBI?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Levinson. Several times.
Mr. Cohn. When was the first time?
Mr. Levinson. The first time was early in April, I think,
of this year and I didn't say much to them then. I had been
subpoenaed before the Velde committee [House Un-American
Activities Committee] and sort of wanted to get that off my
mind. They arranged for subsequent appointments. After that I
had some sessions with the FBI agent. Do you want his name?
Mr. Cohn. No.
The Chairman. You didn't take the Fifth Amendment before
the Velde committee?
Mr. Levinson. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you testify before the Velde committee in
open session or closed session?
Mr. Levinson. Open session.
The Chairman. Who recruited you into the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. Well, I sort of went over this a little bit
with the FBI. It is pretty complicated and it will sound a
little weird.
Nobody recruited me. I actually walked into the
headquarters of the Communist party of Boston and met Mr. Phil
Frankfeld and signed up.
The Chairman. Was there anybody you knew while in the
Communist party who is today working for the United States
government?
Mr. Levinson. No.
The Chairman. Is there anybody whom you knew in the
Communist party who has worked for the Army Signal Corps or any
related organization?
Mr. Levinson. No.
The Chairman. Or any laboratory where they might have been
doing work on radar or for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Levinson. Let's see. This goes back to the war period.
Let's see. Wendell Furry.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\3\ Wendell Furry later testified in executive session on November
4, 1953.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Chairman. Did he have anything to do with radar?
Mr. Levinson. He was in the radiation lab. He was a
theoretical physicist.
The Chairman. What is Mr. Furry doing now?
Mr. Levinson. He is a professor of physics at Harvard. He
was also before the Velde committee.
The Chairman. Did he testify?
Mr. Levinson. He gave fairly long testimony except on
certain questions he invoked the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. He is teaching at Harvard now?
Mr. Levinson. That is right.
The Chairman. What did he do in connection with radar?
Mr. Levinson. Well, all the work of the radiation
laboratory has been published. He wrote part of the volume of
theories of antennas.
The Chairman. At MIT? The Signal Corps project at MIT, was
it?
Mr. Levinson. Gentlemen, I don't know that. I don't think
so. This was during the war. It was not electronic radar. It
was NDIC, which he was interested. I think there were a lot of
people interested, but as I say, various stuff was published
after the war. It was rather theoretical, considerably
theoretical.
The Chairman. And he is now teaching at Harvard and he
appeared before the Velde committee? Now, is he the only one
you can think of?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I think that will be all. I don't think we
will need you again.
Just one other question. You say that in 1945 or
thereabouts you broke off connections with the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. I had certain differences, disputes with the
New Masses with them in 1944 and stopped attending meetings and
I sort of split away. Arguments with local leaders, etc.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Your name will not be
given to the press or anyone else unless you give it to them.
Mr. Levinson. I think that will not only help me but MIT.
The Chairman. The reason we don't give out names of
witnesses, we have got to call a lot of good, loyal Americans
and if we give the names of witnesses, there is always the
impression that they must have been guilty of something, which
is not true.
Thank you very much. That is all.
Mr. Kernan. Is Mr. Levinson discharged from the subpoena?
The Chairman. We will let you know if we want him again.
TESTIMONY OF LOUISE SARANT
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Sarant. I do.
The Chairman. Could we get your full name for the record
please?
Mrs. Sarant. Louise Jacqueline Sarant.
The Chairman. Where do you reside?
Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
The Chairman. What is the street address?
Mrs. Sarant. RD No. 3.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mrs. Sarant. Housewife.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mrs. Sarant. No, divorced.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name of your husband?
Mrs. Sarant. Alfred?
Mr. Cohn. When were you divorced from your husband?
Mrs. Sarant. We were divorced in 1952.
Mr. Cohn. When were you married?
Mrs. Sarant. 1945.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Sarant ever work for the Signal Corps out
at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey?
Mrs. Sarant. Not when I knew him.
Mr. Cohn. If he did it was prior to your marriage. Is that
right?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Was it in the years 1942 and 1943, approximately?
Mrs. Sarant. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Now, at the time--when did you see Mr. Sarant
last by the way?
Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago, 1950. July of 1950.
Mr. Cohn. Now, coming to the first of 1945, in that year
was Mr. Sarant an espionage agent?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You understand that unless you were involved,
the fact that he was an espionage agent would not incriminate
you, unless you, yourself, were involved. You understand that,
don't you?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe I do. I believe I understand what I
am doing when I refuse to answer a question on the ground it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mrs. Sarant, from what Mr. Sarant told you
do you know that he was engaged in espionage while working for
the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever present when Mr. Sarant, Joel Barr
and Julius Rosenberg were discussing plans concerning espionage
against the United States?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party yourself?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Are you today a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Has Mr. Sarant left this country and gone to the
Soviet Union?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you last see Mr. Sarant?
Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Was he your husband then?
Mrs. Sarant. [No answer]
The Chairman. Has he left the country?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he is in the United
States?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. When did you get your divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. 1952. A year ago.
The Chairman. Where did you get the divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. Florida.
The Chairman. In what court down in Florida?
Mrs. Sarant. I have no idea. Miami.
The Chairman. And where did they serve the papers on your
husband or did they serve them by publication?
Mrs. Sarant. Publication.
The Chairman. Do you know what address they gave in the
publication notice?
Mrs. Sarant. I think it was our last home address.
The Chairman. I believe you have got to sign an affidavit
that this is the last known address of your husband. Is that
right?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe so.
The Chairman. Is that actually the last address you know he
stopped at?
Mrs. Sarant. That is the last place I saw him.
The Chairman. Is that the last address that you know that
he had, regardless of where you saw him? In other words, did
you learn from someone else a different address he had
subsequent to that time?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Are you married now?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. What do you work at?
Mrs. Sarant. I take care of my children.
The Chairman. How many children do you have?
Mrs. Sarant. Two.
The Chairman. How old is the oldest child?
Mrs. Sarant. Seven in December.
The Chairman. Are you working at all yourself or just
taking care of your children?
Mrs. Sarant. Pardon?
The Chairman. You aren't holding down any job at all?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. How do you support yourself?
Mrs. Sarant. My father supports me.
The Chairman. You get no income from the Communist party at
this time?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I may say you waived the privilege when I
asked you about support and you stated your father supported
you.
Mr. Cohn. Is your father a Communist?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Was your father's name Victor Ross?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Where does he reside?
Mrs. Sarant. Utica, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Same address?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
The Chairman. When Mr. Sarant left did he take any
belongings with him?
Mrs. Sarant. I don't remember what he took with him.
The Chairman. Did he just walk out of the house with his
hat or did he take clothes?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe he had a suitcase. I can't tell you
what was in it.
The Chairman. What were the grounds for divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. Desertion.
The Chairman. Have you heard from Mr. Sarant in the last
three years, directly or indirectly?
Mrs. Sarant. No, I have not.
The Chairman. Not one word?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. As far as you know he disappeared from the
face of the earth?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know Joel Barr?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know Vivan Glassman?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know Joseph Levitsky?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know a man by the name of Carl
Greenberg?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Were you present at a restaurant on 34th
Street in New York with your husband and Joel Barr when
Levitsky and with him William Perl on an occasion when Joseph
Levitsky brought Carl Greenberg to that restaurant?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know William Perl?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that such
answer might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Were you yourself engaged in espionage?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Was your husband a part of the Rosenberg spy
ring while he worked for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. That will be all for the time being, Mrs.
Sarant. We will want you at a future date, so consider yourself
under subpoena.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Aaron Copland?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rainville. I had occasion in 1932 to interview some of
the Brown Shirt leaders in Chicago and at one of their homes
they had a seven-year-old boy of whom they were very proud of
the way which he talked about Hitler. He would run in the front
room and salute before Hitler's picture.
May I ask, are you teaching your children the principles of
the Communist party?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You understand that you are still under
subpoena and you will be notified when to return.
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH H. PERCOFF (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEONARD E. GOLDITCH)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that in the matter now
in hearing the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Percoff. I do.
Mr. Golditch. I'd like to enter my appearance.
Mr. Cohn. We'd like you to.
Mr. Golditch. My name is Leonard E. Golditch, 25 Broad
Street, New York 4, New York.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask for an adjournment at this
time. I understand from my client that he was served this
subpoena at 1:30 yesterday afternoon. He consulted me yesterday
evening about 4:30. I haven't had the opportunity to really
prepare for the hearing or ascertain what the facts are or what
the hearing is about. I would, therefore, respectfully ask the
Chairman for an adjournment so I may be able to prepare for the
hearing and the witness will be ready to reappear at any time
you telephone. Call either his office or mine.
The Chairman. I think that is a reasonable request.
Mr. Golditch. In other words, when do you expect to be back
in the city?
The Chairman. I think I will be back a week from next
Tuesday or Wednesday. We will let you know.
Mr. Golditch. My number is Hanover 2-7550.
The Chairman. I might suggest counsel, that it will save
you considerable work if you let counsel ask some questions and
if it requires further study, you can ask for an adjournment
then.
Mr. Golditch. I would appreciate it very much if we could
have the adjournment. I might make unnecessary objections and
we may be able to save you a lot of time when I ascertain what
the hearings are about.
The Chairman. We will notify you then, perhaps a week from
Tuesday or Wednesday.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE AGUIMBAU (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
OSMOND. K. FRAENKEL)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Aguimbau. I do.
The Chairman. May we have your full name?
Mr. Aguimbau. Lawrence Baker Aguimbau.
The Chairman. And your counsel?
Mr. Fraenkel. Osmond K. Fraenkel, 120 Broadway, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Aguimbau, where do you reside?
Mr. Aguimbau. Foxboro, Massachusetts.
Mr. Cohn. And what is your occupation?
Mr. Aguimbau. I am a teacher at MIT.
Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
Mr. Aguimbau. Radio engineering.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Aguimbau. Since 1939.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever done any work for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not directly, only through MIT.
Mr. Cohn. What was the work you have done?
Mr. Aguimbau. I have worked for MIT, work that was under
government contract.
Mr. Cohn. Such as?
Mr. Aguimbau. Such as the research laboratory of
electronics.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of that work involve radar?
Mr. Aguimbau. No. It involved electronic frequency
moderation.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come across any classified information in
the course of that work?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the only project you worked on?
Mr. Aguimbau. Except for teaching. I was teaching army
specialized training. That was not under direct government
auspices.
Mr. Cohn. At MIT?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is difficult to say in detail. I know I
met him as early as 1937, casually, and I may have met him
before that. I read in the papers that we were both students at
Harvard and I assume I may have met him there.
Mr. Cohn. What year were you working on the electronic
program?
Mr. Aguimbau. 1945 until the present.
Mr. Cohn. You are working on it now?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, at the present time you don't happen
to be on government payroll, do you?
Mr. Aguimbau. That isn't government contribution.
Mr. Cohn. When did the government contribution cease?
Mr. Aguimbau. July 1.
Mr. Cohn. When were you teaching this army training?
Mr. Aguimbau. During the war.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you say you met Mr. Yamins in 1937?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him well?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not well. It is so difficult to remember in
detail. I have been trying to think of it since I saw his name
in the papers. I met him in that period a total of a half dozen
times.
Mr. Cohn. When did he come to MIT?
Mr. Aguimbau. A year or so ago. I wouldn't know that.
Something of that sort.
Mr. Cohn. And from the time you met him until he came to
MIT, you had been with him about a half dozen times?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is very hard to time with precision back
about fifteen years ago. I did meet him occasionally.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of these contacts socially?
Mr. Aguimbau. I casually met him on the street in Cambridge
while he was a graduate student at Harvard.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever at any social gathering where he
was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. On one occasion, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Aguimbau. 1937.
Mr. Cohn. Who else was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I don't know. It is a long time back
and I don't really know.
Mr. Cohn. You recall nobody who was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. No. It was a left-wingish sort of social
gathering but I had the impression he was not attending the
gathering as such but was a casual visitor. He remarked on that
to me.
Mr. Cohn. You recall that?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall anybody present besides you and
Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. The people living in the house and I think
there were others present but I don't know. I have been
thinking of this during the time and it was the first time to
the best of my knowledge that I met him and he came up and
introduced himself and apparently he knew me because he said he
had seen me at electrical meetings.
Mr. Cohn. You say it was a leftish gathering-under whose
sponsorship?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir. A school that I had attended.
Mr. Cohn. Can you be specific?
Mr. Aguimbau. Progressive Labor School.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a Communist school?
Mr. Aguimbau. Under influence, I would say.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a party member at that time?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not at that time. I was from 1937 to sometime
between 1949 and 1950. I am not sure of the exact date.
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the party?
Mr. Aguimbau. Late 1949 or early 1950.
Mr. Cohn. During part of the time you were working on the
electronics project you were a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody you met in the Communist party
or in the Communist movement who is today working directly or
indirectly for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not that I know of. I can't think of anyone
who is.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody who did any work for the
government, directly or indirectly----
Mr. Aguimbau. It has been testified that Yamins of MIT did.
He testified to that effect himself but I was not aware of
anyone in the project in which I was active being a member of
the Communist party.
The Chairman. Is this the first time you were before a
committee?
Mr. Aguimbau. I was before the Velde committee.
The Chairman. Did you ever see Mr. Yamins at leftish
gatherings?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
The Chairman. Now, when he came to MIT, did you have
occasion to know Mr. Yamins better?
Mr. Aguimbau. Only as far as business was concerned. I
never talked with him about anything other than business
matters.
Mr. Cohn. Not at all. You never had a social acquaintance?
Mr. Aguimbau. No, sir. I was at one leftish meeting with
him socially. I have the impression that I met him at the Radio
Institute at a radio engineers meeting in New York. I can not
be certain of that.
Mr. Cohn. Did he attend this Progressive Labor School?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. You did not see him there?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know who brought him to the party? What he
was doing at the party?
Mr. Aguimbau. He told me he had come by with someone; that
he was attending as a friendly matter and was not interested in
the matter himself.
Mr. Cohn. What was the matter? Was it fund raising?
Mr. Aguimbau. No, it wasn't that. Some sort of celebration.
Mr. Cohn. In connection with the school?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Having searched your memory and having thought
about it, do you still say you don't know anybody who worked
for the government, we are particularly interested in
electronics and radar, who are now or ever have been in the
government and whom you knew in the Communist movement?
Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I was in the laboratory--where I was
working I have no knowledge of anyone who was a member of the
Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. How about any place, anywhere, who was in the
Communist movement and now works for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is a very difficult thing to answer. I
wouldn't know of their government employment. I do believe that
there was one case I knew of where a man was working for the
government fifteen or twenty years ago, not in recent years.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mr. Aguimbau. I had rather not give that.
Mr. Cohn. Would you direct the witness to give that, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. I may say that I understand your feeling that
you don't want to name someone who worked in the government
fifteen or twenty years ago. It may seem very unimportant and
most likely will be unimportant. However, we are investigating
a situation concerning espionage of very startling evidence,
the Rosenberg spy ring extending into the Monmouth plant. Under
those circumstances, it is difficult to know whether or not the
man you knew as a Communist could furnish some very important
information, which might be a minor link. I think I will have
to very reluctantly order you to answer that.
Mr. Aguimbau. May I say a word. He was not--he was working
a long time back on a project of rivers or something of that
sort, nothing connected with electrical matters. It is not at
all connected. I am reasonably certain he has not worked for
the government in the last fifteen years.
The Chairman. What is he doing now?
Mr. Aguimbau. I don't know. I haven't had contact with him
in five or ten years.
The Chairman. Then how do you know he is not back in the
government? Do you know that he left the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, I could say that because he was asked to
leave that project as a security matter. He was asked to leave
that project as a security matter.
The Chairman. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't give
us the name. If you want to consult with counsel, you have a
right to at any time you'd like.
Mr. Cohn. I'd like the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. As I said before, I feel very strongly that
he is not connected with this.
Mr. Cohn. The trouble with that is this: You can't judge
that. You don't know what happened. You don't know who his
friends are in the Communist movement. You could give us a
chance to call him in executive session and he might be
perfectly friendly and happy to cooperate. You don't have the
picture the committee has and you can't take it upon yourself
to judge whether or not he can help.
The Chairman. If we hear of anybody who is a Communist in
the government we have to get the name and call him in. Unless
you feel the answer might tend to incriminate you and I'm sure
it wouldn't as you have freely answered the other question, we
ought to have the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. The situation is, he did tell me that he was
discharged on a security basis and on this basis you must have
his name.
Mr. Cohn. That isn't going to be too much help to me.
Mr. Aguimbau. You put me in a very embarrassing situation.
The Chairman. I will have to order you to give the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. I will have to refuse.
The Chairman. Well, we will have to hold you in contempt if
you refuse. You have no legal basis.
I may say, as long as the witness has competent legal
counsel, have the record show that the witness refused to
answer the question; that the chairman ordered him to answer
and he persisted in refusing and states that if he were to
answer the question, the answer would not tend to incriminate
him.
Mr. Aguimbau. I might say this. I am thoroughly willing to
cooperate with the committee as far as knowledge of the present
situation is concerned and I regard on the technical matter at
hand that this happens to be non-pertinent. If it were
pertinent, I would bring it out.
Mr. Rainville. You have already been proved wrong once. The
government discharged him as a security risk.
Mr. Aguimbau. The government discharges people as security
risks from all kinds of positions.
Mr. Rainville. They did think he was a security risk. They
found out about his Communist activities and discharged him.
The Chairman. Give us the names of every other individual
you have known as a member of the Communist party? Do you
refuse to do that too?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. I would say that in this respect I
thought this matter over. I had the same situation in the Velde
committee. The reason for doing so is that I searched my
conscience very carefully and decided there were many courses
open to me and that in particular use of the Fifth Amendment
would be appropriate but I didn't wish to do that. I wanted to
give the committee there and this committee as much information
as I can that will be of use to them in the problem at hand. I
am willing to be of help and I have forgone the use of the
privilege of the Fifth Amendment because I wished to be of
maximum assistance to the committee consistent with what I felt
was an honorable stand. If I had known of any activities that
in my opinion constitute espionage or anything of that nature,
I wouldn't use that for this purpose. This was the best thing I
honorably could do for the committee.
The Chairman. Let me say this for your information.
The committee, as you understand, has jurisdiction to
investigate anything having to do with the government,
expenditure of government funds. It is not confined solely to
the Signal Corps Laboratory, you understand, and we have been
going into the question of Communists, espionage in various
branches of the government.
Mr. Jones. As a member of the Communist party you my have
known of no espionage activities on his part. We may have other
evidence indicating that he was part of the Rosenberg spy ring.
The Chairman. It may be possible that the unimportant
evidence, unimportant to you, it may seem completely irrelevant
to you but it might be an important link in uncovering and
exposing the espionage ring which has been operating or is
operating at Fort Monmouth. For that reason I am going to order
you to give the committee (1) the names of all members of the
Communist party known to you as such who are now to your
knowledge working in the government.
Mr. Aguimbau. I know none.
The Chairman. Number two, anyone known to you who is a
member of the Communist party who has in the past been in or
worked in the government.
Mr. Aguimbau. I know only one instance of that.
The Chairman. That is the one on which we have your refusal
already. Number three, I am going to ask you to give the names
of all those known to you as members of the Communist party and
whose occupation you do not know at the present time. That is
on the theory that he may or may not be working in the
government, may or may not be doing government work.
I assume you refuse to answer that?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is so.
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered
to answer the question and still refused. Last and finally is
the request for the names of any other individuals other than
those who have subsequently been deceased who were known to you
or are known to you as members of the Communist party.
Mr. Aguimbau. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered
to answer the question and refused and the basis for refusing
was not on the Fifth Amendment but for the reason as stated by
the witness.
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
The Chairman. May I suggest that you go back and think this
matter over and if you change your mind, let us know. We have
no desire to take the time of the courts and the time of the
Senate to punish people for contempt. There is nothing gained
as far as the committee is concerned and nothing gained as far
as you are concerned.
Mr. Fraenkel. Counsel and the witness have talked this over
quite sometime.
The Chairman. Maybe when he thinks over the grounds on
which we feel we need this, he will. If he doesn't, it is up to
him.
TESTIMONY OF PERRY SEAY
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Seay. I do.
Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name?
Mr. Seay. Perry Alexander Seay. The last name is spelled S-
e-a-y.
Mr. Cohn. You are employed at the Reeves Instrument
Corporation?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Since when?
Mr. Seay. 1947, November 1947. However, I was away for
about an eight months period.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before you went to Reeves?
Mr. Seay. University of Texas.
Mr. Cohn. While at Reeves, did you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Seay. Not at the time I was employed there, after his
indictment.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well when there?
Mr. Seay. I knew him as a business acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work in the same office with you?
Mr. Seay. For a period he did.
Mr. Cohn. Who were the people that would come in to see
him?
Mr. Seay. He had dealings primarily with the air force and
was only on the air force job during the time I was there.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a classified job?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any of his social acquaintance that
would drop in on him in the office?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Cohn. You don't recall the name of anyone who ever came
to see him in the office?
Mr. Seay. Not a social acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Anyone with whom he was particularly friendly?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about the names of anyone who would come to
the office to see him regardless of the relationship?
Mr. Seay. [No answer]
The Chairman. Would business people from various companies
come there in connection with the work under way?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Would you name all the people you recall?
Give us the names of all those?
Mr. Seay. Mr. Lesley Cornell.
The Chairman. Where is Mr. Cornell?
Mr. Seay. Army air force, Rome air force.
The Chairman. Was he a civilian or an army officer?
Mr. Seay. He was a civilian employee of the air base.
The Chairman. How often would he come in to see Sobell?
Mr. Seay. In frequently. It is difficult for me to say. I
wasn't directly associated with the project Mr. Sobell was on.
The Chairman. You may think it is unimportant to give us
the names, but it is important that you give us the names of
everyone who came in to see Sobell. Out of ten nine might not
be important but the tenth one might be important.
Mr. Seay. I will do my best. You will have to remember that
was over two years. I believe there was a Mr. Duncan.
The Chairman. Who is he?
Mr. Seay. He is head of the Helipot Corporation.
The Chairman. Was he doing business with Reeves?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. He still does business with Reeves.
The Chairman. As far as you know he would just come in on
business?
Mr. Seay. I'd like to retract that statement. I don't know
of any specific time he came to see Sobell.
The Chairman. How about Cornell? Was that the first name
you gave, Cornell?
Mr. Seay. Cornell was head of the project at Rome, which
was then Watson Laboratories. Sobell was project engineer at
Reeves.
The Chairman. Did Cornell see Sobell in the course of his
work?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Only in the course of his work?
Mr. Seay. That was the only information I had.
The Chairman. Keeping in mind that he was committing
espionage at that particular time, I wish you would search your
memory a little more carefully for these names?
How about Greenblum, Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Seay. I don't believe he had occasion to visit Sobell.
The Chairman. Do you know Greenblum?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. You have only given me the name of one person
who visited Sobell. I am going to ask you when you leave here
to try and make a list of other people who visited Sobell and
give the description of who they are, in business as far as you
know and who visited him socially. You will be considered
giving that under oath.
Do I understand at this time that the only man you know of
who visited Sobell was this man Cornell?
Mr. Seay. It has been two years since this incident. At the
time I was not directly associated with the project involved. I
only know Mr. Cornell visited there; that he was the project
engineer--
The Chairman. Did you ever see him talk to Sobell?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. You didn't assume he talked to him?
Mr. Seay. I know he was there in connection with the
project and with Sobell.
The Chairman. How large was this office you and Sobell
worked in?
Mr. Seay. The office was about--approximately eight people,
eight desks.
The Chairman. Was it as big as this room?
Mr. Seay. About as big as this end.
The Chairman. You worked there how many years?
Mr. Seay. I was in that office--It is difficult to say. I
have been in six or eight different offices. Probably a year at
the least.
The Chairman. It seems with Sobell in there you could think
of a few more people who visited him?
Mr. Seay. I concur.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: When Sobell was indicted
for espionage, where were you working?
Mr. Seay. I was at Reeves.
The Chairman. How long before that had Sobell been at
Reeves?
Mr. Seay. He had been at Reeves, let's see, this was
possibly two or three years. I don't know. I believe he came to
Reeves about 1947 or 1948. If I am not mistaken he was there at
the time I came in 1947.
The Chairman. Now long before he was indicated did he leave
Reeves?
Mr. Seay. Possibly a couple of weeks before on vacation.
The Chairman. A couple of weeks before he was indicted he
was working in the office where you were?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. When you heard he was indicted didn't it make
some impression on you, and didn't you go over in your mind the
people who were visiting him?
Mr. Seay. Not to any great extent. I was concerned about
the problem, highly concerned.
The Chairman. Didn't you stop to think who had been
visiting in the office? He is a man accused of espionage,
punishable by death. You were working in the same office with
him, had been there up to the week before over a period of a
year. Didn't you stop and say to yourself: Is it true? Who was
at the scene? Who was involved?
Mr. Seay. I would like to put in one comment. We have
complete records at Reeves indicating who was there to see
Sobell all during that period. I think that would be much more
factual.
The Chairman. Reeves keeps a record of anyone who comes in
the place?
Mr. Seay. Yes. Reeves is doing classified work.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: If I went to Reeves and
I had secret clearance and was allowed to pass through the
gate, would there be some record of who I was going to see?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. After I was in the plant could I see someone
other than the people I was instructed to see? Couldn't I say I
was coming to see you and end up talking to Sobell.
Mr. Seay. You would be the responsibility of the individual
whom you went to see during the time you were in the plant. He
would turn you over to Sobell or someone else.
The Chairman. But if someone came to see you who had secret
clearance you wouldn't object to them going over and talking to
Sobell who is working in the same office, would you? That
emphasizes the importance of your trying to remember. There
wouldn't be a record in all cases. There is no reason you can't
give us the names. Do you have an awful bad memory?
Mr. Seay. I wouldn't say I have a bad memory, average
memory.
The Chairman. And you can't think of a single other person
that came in to see Sobell?
Mr. Seay. I am sure there were other people there. There
were manufacturers' representatives there and people associated
with that particular project.
The Chairman. How well did you know him?
Mr. Seay. Business acquaintance.
The Chairman. Do you know a man by the name of Levitsky?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You never heard of him?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Have you ever visited Sobell's home?
Mr. Seay. Once.
The Chairman. How long was that before the indictment?
Mr. Seay. It was a considerable time before that.
The Chairman. Roughly. A considerable time doesn't mean too
much.
Mr. Seay. It is difficult to say on that. Possibly a year.
The Chairman. Roughly. One month, two months, three months?
Mr. Seay. I said possibly a year. I gave that information
before the grand jury which indicted Sobell.
The Chairman. Was that a dinner you attended in his home?
Mr. Seay. I believe so, yes.
The Chairman. Was your wife there too?
Mr. Seay. I am single.
The Chairman. Who else was there?
Mr. Seay. I was there alone. His wife was there and I
believe an acquaintance came in during the time.
The Chairman. Do you know who the acquaintance was?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't. That specific question was asked at
the grand jury hearing and I wasn't able to give it then.
The Chairman. Were you introduced to the acquaintance?
Mr. Seay. I believe so.
The Chairman. Was it a man or a woman?
Mr. Seay. It is very vague in my mind. I believe some other
people came in--one other person. It is very vague.
The Chairman. You know that a person came in but you don't
know whether it was a man or a woman?
Mr. Seay. There was no significance attached to this visit.
The Chairman. Do you know whether it was a man or a woman?
Mr. Seay. No, I do not.
The Chairman. You have no idea?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You don't know whether they were old or
young?
Mr. Seay. I believe it was a young person.
The Chairman. Did you take this person home after the
dinner?
Mr. Seay. No, I did not.
The Chairman. How late did you stay in his home that night,
roughly?
Mr. Seay. I wasn't there late.
The Chairman. How late? Undoubtedly you can't give the
exact time but was it nine o'clock, twelve o'clock or two
o'clock?
Mr. Seay. I would say it was in the order of nine or ten
o'clock.
The Chairman. Did the four of you have dinner?
Mr. Seay. I don't believe the fourth person ate dinner.
The Chairman. The fourth person came after dinner?
Mr. Seay. If at all.
The Chairman. Now, you say if at all.
Mr. Seay. I told you I believed there was a fourth person.
The Chairman. Now you say you don't believe there was a
fourth.
Mr. Seay. No, I did not. I believe there was a fourth
person but I can't say positively.
The Chairman. Do you believe the fourth person was there
for dinner?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't think so.
The Chairman. Do you think the fourth person came after
dinner?
Mr. Seay. If anyone was there, they dropped in for a few
minutes only. The only thing I remember was he showed us some
pictures of his trip to Canada.
The Chairman. Let's get it down to the fourth person. You
were very positive until we started questioning you. You say
you do know if someone came in it was for a few minutes or half
an hour.
Mr. Seay. I think you asked me if it was an older person. I
think if it had been an older person I probably would have
remembered it.
The Chairman. Do you know that they were only there for a
few minutes or half an hour?
Mr. Seay. I don't remember them being there at the time he
showed the pictures of his trip to Canada.
The Chairman. Now, it is rather important for us to know
this fourth person. Mr. Sobell was engaged in espionage at this
time. Do you know that this person was only there for a few
minutes or half an hour?
Mr. Seay. Sir, I wasn't there so very many hours myself. I
know there was a time when there was no one there. At least I
don't believe there was anyone there. I said he showed us some
pictures.
The Chairman. Who do you mean by ``us''?
Mr. Seay. His wife and I.
The Chairman. Is that what you had in your mind when you
said ``us''?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Pictures of what?
Mr. Seay. Scenic trips through Canada and sections of
Canada and he had pictures of his family, I believe.
The Chairman. Did you ever take any classified material out
of the laboratory?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I had occasion to take classified material
from the laboratory at Reeves also.
The Chairman. Did you take it to your home?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. I had material in my home at times.
The Chairman. Secret material?
Mr. Seay. I don't believe I had secret material. I have had
material classified confidential.
The Chairman. Did you sign a pass to get that or did you
have to sign a pass over there?
Mr. Seay. We sign passes to take material out.
The Chairman. You sign the passes yourself?
Mr. Seay. I wouldn't say positively we signed to take
material out at that time. During the past couple of years we
have more rigorous security arrangements. I couldn't say
positively when that went in process.
The Chairman. About how many times have you taken
confidential material home?
Mr. Seay. A number of times. It is difficult for me to say.
I took material home on quite a few occasions to do work at
night on.
The Chairman. Did you have a safe in your home?
Mr. Seay. No, I did not.
The Chairman. Did you ever give it to anyone who was not
working at Reeves Laboratory?
Mr. Seay. Only when a receipt was signed for it. I don't
know of any instances I gave material to other people. I have
never given material to anyone whom I felt was not cleared for
the project on which I was working.
The Chairman. How long have you been married?
Mr. Seay. I have not been married.
The Chairman. Who were you living with when you and Sobell
were working together?
Mr. Seay. I had a private apartment.
The Chairman. Now, would you leave this confidential
material in your apartment from day to day?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't believe so.
The Chairman. You would always take it back the next day?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. You are sure of that?
Mr. Seay. I can't say positively, sir.
The Chairman. Did you take care of your own apartment?
Mr. Seay. No one entered it. I had no maid service.
The Chairman. You did all of your own cleaning?
Mr. Seay. Everything.
The Chairman. Did anyone else have a key to the apartment?
Mr. Seay. I don't know, sir. Undoubtedly the management may
have had a key to the apartment.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Communist party?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever join the Young Communist League?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Were you ever solicited to?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You never gave money to the Communist party?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. You never belonged to any organizations
listed as Communist fronts?
Mr. Seay. Not if I had any inkling that was their
disposition. I do not in general believe in giving money to any
organization.
The Chairman. Did you ever join an organization which you
learned later or knew at that time had been cited by the
attorney general as a front for the Communist party?
Mr. Seay. No.
The Chairman. Are you quite sure of that?
Mr. Seay. I am not a joiner in general. The only
organizations in which I have ever held membership to my
knowledge are fraternities at college and business
institutions. American Institute of Engineering and the
Institute of Radio Engineering. I have never been a member of
any type political organization other than Republican and
Democratic parties.
The Chairman. So then your testimony in closing is, correct
me if I make any errors, that one you never belonged to the
Communist party; you were never solicited to join the Communist
party; you never joined the Young Communist League; never
solicited to join the Young Communist League.
Did you ever attend any Communist meetings or any meetings
of the Young Communist League?
Mr. Seay. No. That I am quite positive about.
The Chairman. You never joined any organization which you
either knew then or learned later was on the attorney general's
list as subversive or a Communist front?
Mr. Seay. Correct.
Mr. Rainville. You say you are not a joiner, so if you ever
belonged to such organizations you would remember?
Mr. Seay. I think I would remember.
Mr. Rainville. Actually you do have some difficulty
remembering things which occurred two years ago?
Mr. Seay. I have difficulty remembering instances that
occurred in business, acquaintances with whom I was not
connected in any way. I have many business acquaintances at the
plant and at various government laboratories. I don't in
general visit in their homes. I have a number of fellows in the
plant who are friends.
Mr. Rainville. You did have great difficult remembering
whether there was anyone else present at this dinner or not.
You couldn't remember whether it was a man or woman. You do
think they were young but you are not sure there was anybody
there.
Mr. Seay. He had a child. It is possible I am thinking of
the child. I can't say. It has been several years and it was a
mere drop.
Mr. Rainville. Do you remember who was president of your
fraternity in college?
Mr. Seay. I was never a member of a social fraternity. I
was a member of a professional fraternity.
Mr. Rainville. Do you remember who was president of your
fraternity in college?
Mr. Seay. No, I don't.
Mr. Rainville. You can't remember the president of your
fraternity in school?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Rainville. Do you keep a diary?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Rainville. You must have some means of reminding
yourself of things when the year is gone?
Mr. Seay. I frequently keep notes stacked up on my desk.
The Chairman. Did you tell the FBI about this dinner you
attended at Sobell's home?
Mr. Seay. I did.
The Chairman. Did you tell them that there was a fourth
person present?
Mr. Seay. I told them I didn't know. I believe it must have
been a couple of years. I said it was about a year, but I
believe it must have been a couple inasmuch as I wasn't able to
remember at the time it came up before the grand jury.
The Chairman. Didn't you tell them there was only three
persons, only you and the two Sobells? Didn't you tell the FBI?
Mr. Seay. I believe at the grand jury hearing I didn't know
whether there was a fourth person present.
The Chairman. Did you mention the fourth person?
Mr. Seay. I know I did not mention a fourth person's name.
I tried to recollect and could not.
The Chairman. Did you mention that a fourth person was
there?
Mr. Seay. I believe I did.
The Chairman. How about the FBI?
Mr. Seay. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Isn't it a fact you never mentioned to the
FBI that there was a fourth person?
Mr. Seay. If they asked me about it I did I am sure.
The Chairman. They asked you all about that dinner. In
fact, they considered it a rather important item, didn't they?
Mr. Seay. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Mr. Seay, do you have secret clearance now?
Are you handling any classified work?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I am.
The Chairman. And they are doing work for the Signal Corps
Lab?
Mr. Seay. I am not currently handling work from the Signal
Corps Laboratory.
[Off record discussion.]
The Chairman. You may go. You my consider yourself under
subpoena and counsel will notify you when you are to return.
Mr. Seay. Sir, I'd like to add one comment. I am very
anxious to cooperate with you on any matters. If I have sounded
very vague on some of the matters brought up, it is because
they occurred a long time ago and at the time under
insignificant conditions.
The Chairman. Just for your benefit I think you should know
how I view it. I think, frankly, it is worse than vague. I
think you know more than you are telling us. You have told us
absolutely nothing.
You could not tell us the persons who came in to see
Sobell. We would like to get the name of the fourth person who
came to his home. We would like to get anything you might have
which would be of some benefit to us; anything Sobell did to
indicate he was a Communist espionage agent; anything anyone
else did.
Think that over and if you want to come back and talk to
us, we will be more than glad to hear you. You may be able to
refresh your recollection.
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. Am I supposed to try to make up a list
of who visited Sobell in his office?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Seay. May I use the files of Reeves?
The Chairman. I assume you can. I assume you have secret
clearance and I assume you can see the files.
Mr. Seay. But that is permissible with you?
The Chairman. I have no control over Reeves files. Get it
from any source you can.
Mr. Seay. Is there anything else you'd like for me to get?
The Chairman. No, I think that is all.
[Whereupon the hearing adjourned.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--None of the witnesses in the staff
interrogatory on October 26, 1953, Benjamin Zuckerman, Hans
Inslerman (1909-1997), Thomas K. Cookson, Doris Seifert (1915-
2001), Lafayette Pope (1907-1979), Ralph Iannarone (1916-1996),
Saul Finklestein (1901-1908), Abraham Lepato, Irving Rosenheim,
Richard Jones, Jr., testified in public session.]
----------
MONDAY, OCTOBER 26, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr,
staff director; G. David Schine, chief consultant; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel; C. George Anastos, assistant
counsel.
Present also: Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, commandant, Fort
Monmouth.
STATEMENT OF BENJAMIN ZUCKERMAN
Mr. Cohn. Will you state your full name for the record.
Mr. Zuckerman. Benjamin Zuckerman.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a woman by the name of Esther
Gershon?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You have never met her or heard of her?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Jasik?
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes, I do; there are two of them.
Mr. Cohn. Henry Jasik.
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes, and I know his brother very slightly.
Mr. Cohn. What is his brother's first name?
Mr. Zuckerman. His brother's first name I can't even
remember.
Mr. Cohn. Did Henry work down at Monmouth?
Mr. Zuckerman. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. What did Henry do?
Mr. Zuckerman. I met Henry when he worked at the Bureau of
Ordnance at Washington, D.C.
Mr. Cohn. That was back in----
Mr. Zuckerman. Way back in 1938.
Mr. Cohn. Did you see him thereafter?
Mr. Zuckerman. I did. Yes, I did see him thereafter. I want
to get this straight. Now, I saw him in Boston right at the end
of the war. He was still in uniform at that time, and as I
recall it, he was recruiting people for the Cambridge Field
Security Office of the air force. He was still in uniform at
the time I talked with him. That was after the war--right after
the war. Then I saw him at the Airborne Instruments Laboratory.
He worked there. I went there on business. I was pretty
friendly with Jasik in Washington.
Mr. Cohn. Did he marry?
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What is the name of his wife?
Mr. Zuckerman. His wife's first name, I think, was Esther,
and she was in Washington at the time.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember her maiden name? Could it have
been Gershon?
Mr. Zuckerman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. When was he married?
Mr. Zuckerman. He was married, I believe, possibly around
1939 or 1940.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the last you saw of Jasik?
Mr. Zuckerman. In New York I saw him.
Mr. Cohn. Well, when did you see him last?
Mr. Zuckerman. I saw him at the Airborne Instruments
Laboratory. I believe I visited him once at his home since that
time.
Mr. Cohn. Where was that?
Mr. Zuckerman. I believe it is around Flushing somewhere. I
have the address.
Mr. Cohn. What is he doing now?
Mr. Zuckerman. Jasik, I believe, is a consultant engineer.
Mr. Cohn. For whom?
Mr. Zuckerman. The last time I saw him he told me he was
taking his doctorate and thought he was going to finish, but he
was not going back to Airborne consultant work. I last saw his
name in the IRP directory as a consultant engineer.
Mr. Cohn. Is he doing government work?
Mr. Zuckerman. I don't know. He may be.
Mr. Cohn. What is his brother's name?
Mr. Zuckerman. Charles.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever work at Monmouth?
Mr. Zuckerman. I don't know anything about his brother.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Simon Gershon?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You have never met him?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Carr. You went to the University of Michigan for a
short time?
Mr. Zuckerman. Yes, for approximately two months.
Mr. Carr. Taking graduate work?
Mr. Zuckerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Did you room with Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Zuckerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Did you assist in any way Coleman's financial
condition while he was there?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Did your family?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Carr. He did not borrow money from you or from your
father?
Mr. Zuckerman. Not that I can remember. He may have
borrowed a dollar or two at one time.
Mr. Carr. What is your father's name?
Mr. Zuckerman. Jacob.
Mr. Carr. Jacob Zuckerman?
Mr. Zuckerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Was he ever connected with the Communist party in
any way?
Mr. Zuckerman. No. My father was always violently opposed
to the Communist party.
Mr. Carr. Where does he live?
Mr. Zuckerman. He isn't living.
[Mr. Zuckerman returned to the hearing room and made the
following statement.]
Mr. Zuckerman. I have been thinking about my testimony I
gave at the previous time [October 15, 1953], and one question
was asked to which I could not remember the answer. If you may
remember that I said I met Sobell once in Schenectady. You
people asked me what I went to inspect there and after thinking
it over, I remember I inspected cells and motors and
generators. We had been having trouble with them and I was sent
up to check on them.
Mr. Cohn. Did you meet anybody with Sobell at any time?
Mr. Zuckerman. I knew people he thought highly of. He spoke
to me about Sid Godet. He spoke very highly of Godet. I knew
his name too. He was very well known, being a very high class
engineer. He spoke very highly of Dushman, and that name is
well known in scientific circles. He is an older man now.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know any of his friends at Schenectady?
Mr. Zuckerman. No.
STATEMENT OF HANS INSLERMAN
Mr. Schine. Will you give your name for the record?
Mr. Inslerman. Inslerman. I-n-s-l-e-r-m-a-n, Hans.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed?
Mr. Inslerman. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties there?
Mr. Inslerman. Section chief, Research Study Section.
Mr. Schine. Are you cleared for classified work?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. And do you handle classified work?
Mr. Inslerman. I do.
Mr. Schine. Ranging up to top secret?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You are cleared for top secret?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, I am.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr. Inslerman. I do. I have a brother.
Mr. Cohn. What is his name?
Mr. Inslerman. Felix A. Inslerman.
Mr. Cohn. Where does he reside?
Mr. Inslerman. He lives in upper New York State.
Mr. Cohn. Exactly what location?
Mr. Inslerman. Near Cambridge, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the Felix Inslerman mentioned in
connection with the Hiss case?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. And he is a photographer? Is that right?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I think he is an electrical engineer. He
studied to be an electrical engineer.
Mr. Cohn. But he was mentioned in the Hiss case in
connection with photography. When called in the Hiss case did
he claim the Fifth Amendment as to his Communist affiliations?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't know. I haven't got the details.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see your brother?
Mr. Inslerman. In the fall of 1950.
Mr. Cohn. What was the occasion for having seen him then?
Mr. Inslerman. That was after the case came up, and he
requested assistance--financial assistance. He indicated that
his family was very hard put and asked for help.
Mr. Cohn. Did you give it to him?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been in touch at all with him since?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Not directly nor indirectly?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Is he married?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, he is.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen his wife since then?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Has your wife been in touch with him, or his
wife?
Mr. Inslerman. I think we did receive a Christmas card, as
I recall. There is another incident connected with your
previous questions--we made arrangements to have him repay his
loan, and he has been sending periodically the payments on the
loan.
Mr. Cohn. But you have not had any contact on the basis of
the loan?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Schine. Your brother is Felix A. Inslerman?
Mr. Inslerman. Felix A. Inslerman.
Mr. Schine. Is he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no knowledge whatsoever that he is.
Mr. Cohn. Well, but then you have not seen his party card?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not.
Mr. Schine. Have you had any reason to believe he is
connected with the Communist movement?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I haven't--or hadn't until this case
came up in early 1950.
Mr. Schine. Up until 1950 you had no reason to suspect he
was connected with the Communist movement, but from 1950 on you
felt that he was?
Mr. Inslerman. I am afraid that I did have to infer that
from all published reports. I was told twice after the Hiss
case came up, once, I think after--in the fall of 1950. I was
called before our commanding officer and he indicated to me----
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mr. Inslerman. Colonel Cassevant.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Inslerman. C-a-s-s-e-v-a-n-t. He indicated to me that
my brother was a Communist.
Mr. Schine. How do you mean he indicated it to you? He told
you that he had information that your brother was a Communist?
Mr. Inslerman. Right. That is right.
Mr. Schine. What else did he tell you?
Mr. Inslerman. I was told absolutely not to have any
contact with him, my brother.
Mr. Schine. At that time, were you handling top secret
work?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't think so. I think I was cleared for
secret at that time, or either in another status because my
clearance was reduced to restricted as I recall when the Hiss
case came up.
Mr. Schine. Then after Colonel Cassevant told you not to
have any contact with your brother, of course, you heard from
your brother and he asked you to give him help.
Mr. Inslerman. No, that occurred afterwards.
Mr. Schine. You had no contact with him after Colonel
Cassevant instructed you to have no contact with him?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right. Actually, I first recall,
back to 1946, I believe that is correct, in 1946 is the last
time I saw my brother until 1950, and I told Colonel Cassevant
about the incident and he warned me to have no further contacts
with him.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true that you did have further contact
with him after this time? After talking with Colonel Cassevant?
Mr. Inslerman. No, that is not true. What do you mean by
contact?
Mr. Schine. Weren't you in contact with your brother after
that?
Mr. Inslerman. By seeing him personally, or by letters? By
mail, yes; I think that there was a Christmas card incident. I
don't know whether my wife may have sent a Christmas card.
Mr. Schine. Didn't he borrow money from you, and weren't
you in contact about the money?
Mr. Inslerman. There was a one-way contact. He merely sent
a check, which I signed and sent back.
Mr. Schine. How much money did you loan your brother?
Mr. Inslerman. $1,400.00
Mr. Schine. Did you know at the time you loaned this money
to your brother you were loaning it to help the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I had no indication whatsoever. When he
requested assistance, I asked him. He made the request by
phone. I asked him if he had cleared himself with the
government, and he gave me to understand that, at least I
understood that there were no charges against him; however, he
also indicated that his security clearance had been suspended.
Mr. Schine. What was he doing at that time for the
government?
Mr. Inslerman. He worked at the General Electric Company at
the time that this case came up.
Mr. Schine. Where is your brother now?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't know. I assume he is still living up
at his place near Cambridge.
Mr. Schine. What is his address?
Mr. Inslerman. I think the last address he had was the
Cambridge post office.
Mr. Schine. Cambridge, Massachusetts?
Mr. Inslerman. Cambridge, New York.
Mr. Schine. Is he still working for the government?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't really know.
Mr. Schine. What was he doing the last time you knew what
he was doing?
Mr. Inslerman. He was an engineer at the General Electric
Company.
Mr. Schine. You mean he has been out of work since he left
General Electric?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't really know.
Mr. Schine. Is this Cambridge, Massachusetts?
Mr. Inslerman. No; Cambridge, New York State.
Mr. Schine. Is there a General Electric plant there?
Mr. Inslerman. This is some distance from the General
Electric plant. This is some distance from Schenectady. It is
towards the northeast side of Schenectady.
Mr. Schine. As far as you know he is still working for
General Electric? Is that correct?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't know. I think so.
Mr. Schine. Do you know what his means of living is?
Mr. Inslerman. When he contacted me, he told me he was
having trouble finding work, and I think he had obtained
private employment somewhere else.
Mr. Schine. When was this?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, about 1950, I believe, when the loan
was made. That, incidentally, was my only contact, physical
contact, or for that matter mail or letters or phone calls or
any other means of communication.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us some information concerning
individuals with whom your brother associated that you believe
are or were a part of the Communist conspiracy?
Mr. Inslerman. I'll do my best. I can't say I knew of any
connections with the Communist conspiracy.
Mr. Schine. Would you try to give us the names of some of
his friends and associates that you think were connected with
the Communist movement.
Mr. Inslerman. I would prefer that you ask a leading
question.
Mr. Schine. All right. What were the names of some of his
associates that you believe are or were in the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no knowledge of that whatsoever.
Mr. Schine. What were the names of some of your brother's
close friends?
Mr. Inslerman. That is going to be rather difficult to
answer, in view of the time which has gone by. I think the
record would probably indicate that since he was so thoroughly
investigated--the record would show which people he associated
with. My association goes back to roughly 1934, when we
separated from our common household. I think he got married
about that date, and the year after that I obtained my job at
Fort Monmouth, and came over here.
Mr. Schine. Thinking up to this time, 1934, now that you
suspect that he is connected with the Communist party, do you
believe he was connected with it in 1934?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. When do you think he first joined the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no indication that he has joined.
When I saw him in November of 1950, he very strenuously
indicated his innocence.
Mr. Schine. How did he explain the fact that he refused to
answer questions.
Mr. Inslerman. He didn't. He didn't explain anything. The
interview was unsatisfactory so far as I was concerned. In
fact, I felt very badly about it because he seemed to be a
changed man from the man of a few years ago--or at least five
years ago--which was the last time I saw him for any length of
time.
Mr. Schine. Do you have any ideas how he may have been
dragged into the Communist movement?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I wouldn't know.
Mr. Schine. You say that you loaned him about $1,400. Has
he paid all of that money back?
Mr. Inslerman. He has paid seven hundred dollars, with
interest.
Mr. Schine. When was the last payment made?
Mr. Inslerman. Sometime last year. I believe last November
or some date like that.
Mr. Schine. How did he pay you?
Mr. Inslerman. By check.
Mr. Schine. Do you remember the name of the bank that he
used?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, I think it was the Chase National Bank.
Mr. Schine. Where is it located?
Mr. Inslerman. New York City. A branch here in New York
City.
Mr. Schine. Has he made any effort to contact you in the
last several months?
Mr. Inslerman. No, absolutely none. I haven't heard from
him since 1950, I believe that is the correct time.
Mr. Schine. Has anybody else who may be associated with him
in his work with the Communist party attempted to contact you,
or to talk with you?
Mr. Inslerman. I have no knowledge of any individual
associated with the Communist party, and so far as your
questions, there are no friends of his who have made any
contact with me, or any people referring back to him.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever signed out any classified documents
at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes. Well, by that I think you mean have I
taken any out?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. Have you ever taken any documents out and
been unable to reproduce them when directed to do so?
Mr. Inslerman. I believe you are referring to the June 1952
incident.
Mr. Cohn. All right, let's take that.
Mr. Inslerman. I think that was the only incident.
Mr. Cohn. Did you return them after being directed to do
so?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, after searching for several weeks, I
would say. It took perhaps a month or more.
Mr. Cohn. Did you return all of them?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a fact that there were some missing?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not. I returned every document I
was requested to.
Mr. Cohn. Were there any documents missing?
Mr. Inslerman. None whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. Were there any which you were not specifically
requested to return which you did?
Mr. Inslerman. Will you re-phrase your question?
Mr. Cohn. When I ask you a question, resolve it out in
favor of giving us the most information.
Mr. Inslerman. I would be glad to do that, but I am not
sure I understand the question right now.
Mr. Cohn. Were there any documents unaccounted for in any
way?
Mr. Inslerman. None that I know of.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have possession of any now?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir. I have some signed out, secret
documents, now.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you have them?
Mr. Inslerman. At my location of work.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any at your house?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely none.
Mr. Cohn. When was the last time you took any home or out
of the plant?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I haven't taken classified
documents home.
Mr. Cohn. Where were the eighteen documents?
Mr. Inslerman. At my place of work.
Mr. Cohn. What had you done, just mislaid them?
Mr. Inslerman. No, they weren't mislaid. In fact, the
situation was that I wasn't even unaware they were charged out
to me, some of them.
Mr. Cohn. Where was they? You were ordered to produce them
in two days and you couldn't do that.
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir. That is right. That is a rather
involved question. It ties in with our procedure at the
laboratory, and I was not asked to produce any documents. I was
asked to produce certain route slips.
Mr. Cohn. Did you produce them within two days?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I couldn't do that.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Inslerman. Because I couldn't identify the routing
slips.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Inslerman. There was a whole bunch of numbers
beginning--the group that I was asked to produce was merely a
series of numbers beginning with the letter ``S,'' indicating
that the documents were secret. In other words, a list of
numbers that the gentleman who came down gave me.
Mr. Cohn. Did you sign out for these documents?
Mr. Inslerman. I found out subsequently I didn't sign for
some of them.
Mr. Cohn. Who did sign out for them?
Mr. Inslerman. The people who were in charge of the section
before me.
Mr. Cohn. What had they done with them?
Mr. Inslerman. Apparently, they had merely put them in file
and left them there and the charge was carried over to my name
by having a card in mail and records transferred to my name.
Mr. Cohn. Did this apply to all eighteen?
Mr. Inslerman. Many of the eighteen I withdrew myself, at
least I signed.
Mr. Cohn. Were you able to produce all of those you signed
for?
Mr. Inslerman. I never segregated the documents. I couldn't
tell.
Mr. Cohn. You were asked to produce eighteen documents in
two days. You say you signed out for some of them and others
were transferred to you as described. How about those signed
out by you, were you able to produce them immediately?
Mr. Inslerman. I could very safely say I was not.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Inslerman. For one thing, I had to identify the
documents from the number given me, which was an ``S'' number.
It took me at least several days. Actually, at the time I was
quite overloaded with work that I didn't realize that
implication when the gentleman came in the branch. I didn't
even know for the first few days they were looking for the
documents charged out to me. I was given to understand by my
chief we were having these people in the plant to look at our
mail and records system and I was assistant to my chief and
took that as a routine function, which is the expected type of
task we are called upon to do from time to time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever reproduce any classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not.
Mr. Cohn. You never made copies for any use in the section
or any other reason?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, we may--perhaps I'd better correct
that.
Mr. Cohn. I think you'd better.
Mr. Inslerman. And indicate that carbon copies are made of
classified documents.
Mr. Cohn. By whom?
Mr. Inslerman. Secretaries in the section or branch.
Mr. Cohn. Now, is it a fact you directed the making of five
copies of certain classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. What is this about five copies?
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have reproduced five copies of
classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. The number of copies are reproduced
according to the requirements.
Mr. Cohn. Well, did you ever direct that any be reproduced?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, I think I directed many copies to be
reproduced.
Mr. Cohn. Was the figure five? Were you ever asked about
five copies of any documents you ordered reproduced?
Mr. Inslerman. I couldn't pinpoint five copies.
Mr. Cohn. You were never asked about that by Captain
Sheehan or Lt. Bromberg?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, wait a minute. Captain Sheehan, Lt.
Bromberg, I don't recognize the captain or lieutenant.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody from CIC, the security end up at
Monmouth, ever ask you whether or not you had reproduced any
classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Did you say CIA?
Mr. Cohn. CIC. Were you ever asked by anybody in security
whether you had ever reproduced classified documents?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't recall any such question at any
time.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you say there have been occasions, you have
had occasions in your section to make carbon copies. Is that
right?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. What records do you keep of the fact that carbons
are made?
Mr. Inslerman. There is no record of carbon copies in the
past. We have a new procedure now.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, you have a document classified
secret and signed out by number and everybody is very careful
of that. They want it back; you signed it out and they order
you to produce it and they know everything is safe; the
document is there; and you have a secretary in the office take
the thing and make five carbons of it and no record is kept of
the carbons. How could you keep track of the secret document?
Mr. Inslerman. I think that is being corrected with the new
procedure.
Mr. Cohn. When did this happen?
Mr. Inslerman. The new procedure? Fairly recently. I can't
exactly pinpoint it, but it would be within the last year.
Mr. Cohn. And prior to that time you made carbon copies of
these documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes. That was the normal procedure.
Mr. Cohn. Who authorized the making of carbon copies?
Mr. Inslerman. That was determined by each supervisor to
necessitate getting the work done.
Mr. Cohn. Who was the supervisor who said it was all right
for you to make carbon copies of these documents?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, normally, in the course of working,
the past procedure has not even been to, on typewritten copy,
to request permission from the supervisor. The supervisor
determines himself whether copies are necessary for the file.
Mr. Cohn. Who was the supervisor in your section who
authorized the making of carbon copies of secret documents
without keeping records of it?
Mr. Inslerman. I have been recently transferred. I actually
am the supervisor myself and I would authorize the making of
carbon copies.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever authorized the making of carbon
copies before the new regulation went into effect?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, it has been sometime, as I recall. You
see, I acted in the capacity of assistant and in that
capacity----
Mr. Cohn. You only did it when the supervisor wasn't there?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, no, not necessarily. It more depended
upon the specific need for a document.
Mr. Cohn. I want to know what the name was of the
supervisor in your section who would from time to time
authorize the making of carbon copies of secret documents
without keeping a record of the carbons?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I was second in command and I
would go to the branch chief----
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mr. Inslerman. M. Kaiser.
Mr. Cohn. Morris Kaiser?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. I see.
By the way, I was going to ask you if there were carbon
copies of any of these eighteen documents unaccounted for. I
assume you would have no accurate way of knowing whether the
carbon copies were accounted for or not since no records was
kept of the carbons. Is that right?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I think the nature of the eighteen
documents were such that normally we would not have carbon
copies made. These eighteen documents were enclosures generally
to letters and were charged out with the route slip number on a
letter, not by the documents.
Mr. Cohn. But if carbon copies were made, you would have no
way of knowing whether all carbons were accounted for. Is that
right? Under the old procedure?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't think there was a specific way of
accounting for carbon copies.
Mr. Cohn. What would be done with the carbon paper after
the copies were made?
Mr. Inslerman. On all classified correspondence, it would
be disposed of as classified material.
Mr. Cohn. Did you see it disposed of regularly in your
section?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir. That would be a very serious
security violation if it wasn't.
Mr. Carr. Where did you live in the year 1933?
Mr. Inslerman. I think it was uptown, 122nd Street.
Mr. Carr. Here in Manhattan?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall having signed a pledge for the
support of Communist candidate in that year?
Mr. Inslerman. That was a subject of the investigation and
I was asked that question. I have been trying to resolve that
ever since in my mind.
Mr. Carr. Did you ever resolve it?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, I did. It was quite a shock to me to
know that such an incident apparently took place.
Mr. Carr. In studying the thing in your own mind, did you
come to any conclusion about it?
Mr. Inslerman. The conclusion I have come to is when I
graduated from school, I had made up my mind regarding
communism and the Communistic system and I had resolved against
it.
Mr. Cohn. What did you object to in it?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, many, many, many, many, matters.
Mr. Cohn. What was your principal objection?
Mr. Inslerman. It seemed to be a very militant and very
aggressive type of movement which runs over people's liberties.
Mr. Cohn. How did you feel about government ownership of
property?
Mr. Inslerman. My feeling is that what we have is
satisfactory.
Mr. Cohn. What was your feeling back then?
Mr. Inslerman. As far as I know, I still say--for instance,
it is hard to recall going back, but take the case of railroads
for instance. Certainly, actually when I really think about the
specific answer, I really didn't have very strong political
feelings at that time. My intentions were engrossed with other
things.
Mr. Carr. But you don't deny in 1933 you voted the
Communist party ticket?
Mr. Inslerman. What I was accused of was that I voted in
the primary election and I was directly that, and I have not
been able to recollect that I voted in such an election.
Mr. Carr. You don't recall signing anything with the
Communist party name across the top and a symbol of the hammer
and sickle?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall voting in any primaries?
Mr. Inslerman. No. That is the thing. I don't recall ever
having voted in the primary. I think I could be fairly certain
on that.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall all the times that you have voted?
Can you recall each year, each election that you have voted?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I should say not, but lately I think I
have been voting rather steadily. I am not sure how steadily I
voted many years ago. At the time you are asking questions
about goes back twenty years.
Mr. Carr. But in 1933 you may have voted for the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I can't say because I have no recollection
on the matter.
Mr. Carr. You have no recollection as to whether or not you
did vote for the Communist party in 1933?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. It is possible you did?
Mr. Inslerman. I won't say anything on the possibility.
Mr. Carr. If presented with your name on a petition or
ballot or official register, would you deny that it was yours?
Is it that uncertain in your mind?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, when I was shown the register when
the matter first came up a number of years ago, I could not
recall the circumstances behind this registry whatsoever.
Mr. Carr. What did you see on the registry?
Mr. Inslerman. As I recall right now, I believe my name was
listed there.
Mr. Carr. Your name, your occupation?
Mr. Inslerman. Among many other things listed on the
registry.
Mr. Carr. Wasn't you name signed in your own writing?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, as I recall, it did seem to be my
own handwriting, but I can't certify to it.
Mr. Carr. It appeared to be your handwriting?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right, but that is about the only
thing I could say.
Mr. Carr. And it was in support of the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. I think the question leads us astray. From
what I could make out, I believe that was a primary ballot, not
ballot, but primary registration which I don't recall having
accomplished.
Mr. Carr. But you did align yourself with the Communist
party according to what you were shown?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't believe so.
Mr. Carr. You don't believe that the paper which you were
shown indicated to you you had aligned yourself with the
Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. Would you repeat that?
Mr. Carr. You don't believe that the paper which you were
shown, containing what looked like you signature, signified you
had aligned yourself with the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I have been trying to figure out
what the papers meant ever since.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall what they looked like?
Mr. Inslerman. [Indicating] Rather long document.
Mr. Carr. [Indicating] Like that?
Mr. Inslerman. Not that long. One third as long.
Mr. Carr. Did it have your name signed?
Mr. Inslerman. I think it had a lot of names on it, among
them my own name.
Mr. Carr. It was a column affair and your name was one and
it ran across your address, occupation, number of years in the
state, number of years in the county, district, etc., and your
name was signed on that?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, it was signed.
Mr. Carr. Now, do you recall anything on that sheet which
indicated what your selection of party was?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes. I think it indicated an abbreviation
which I interpreted to mean Communist.
Mr. Cohn. When were you first asked about this? When did
this matter first come up?
Mr. Inslerman. That was early in 1950 when the Hiss case
was being investigated very closely.
Mr. Cohn. Now, neither at that time or at this time were
you or are you able to say that is your signature?
Mr. Inslerman. It looks like it is. That is about all I
could say. I don't recall having signed it, no.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever been called to appear before a
loyalty board?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I have not.
Mr. Carr. In 1950, when asked concerning this registration,
was this by the army officials at Fort Monmouth? Who asked you
concerning this?
Mr. Inslerman. No, that was, I recall the man's name, Mr.
Donohan. I think he is connected with the district attorney's
office, U.S. federal district attorney.
Mr. Carr. Donohan?
Mr. Inslerman. That is right.
Mr. Carr. Were you called to testify in the Hiss case?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Cohn. What did Mr. Donohan do, interview you?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man named Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I don't know an individual by that name.
Mr. Cohn. How about Alfred Sarant?
Mr. Inslerman. No. I'd like to see a photograph.
Mr. Cohn. Fred Kitty?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I don't know anyone.
Mr. Cohn. Hy Sigman?
Mr. Inslerman. Seems to be first names, no.
Mr. Carr. When were you first approached by the Communist
party?
Mr. Inslerman. I was never approached by the Communist
party.
Mr. Carr. Were you approached by the Young Communist
League.
Mr. Inslerman. Absolutely not.
Mr. Carr. How did it happen you signed your name on this
registry?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't recall having--that is rather easy
to explain to me, is that actually going through my school
days, I was never too much interested in politics and
consequently, political affiliations never came up as a
critical item in my mind.
Mr. Carr. You just said by the time you left school you had
decided against communism. What year did you finish school?
Mr. Inslerman. 1930.
Mr. Carr. Then in 1933 your name shows up favoring
communism?
Mr. Inslerman. That is an incident which is difficult for
me to explain because my personal viewpoint is, I have worked
on an individualistic basis entirely and the Communistic
viewpoint is such that the individual has no being in that
viewpoint.
Mr. Carr. Having that feeling, how could you make a mistake
in registering? Doesn't it seem a little unusual that you would
turn up in the Communist party rather than some other political
party so designated at the time, since you had this feeling
concerning communism, had had it at least three years.
Mr. Inslerman. Well, actually, the problem wouldn't have
appeared in the Republican category at that time.
Mr. Carr. Would you say socialistic?
Mr. Inslerman. Actually, I had no definite set of views
but----
Mr. Carr. You were opposed to communism?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. I say, ``You were opposed to communism.''
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, that is right.
Mr. Carr. So that the best you can say now is that what
appears to be your own signature on this registry indicating
you supported the Communist party in this election in 1933.
Other than that, you are at a loss to understand. How your name
happened to get on there under the emblem of the Communist
party, you are at a loss to understand?
Mr. Inslerman. Yes.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall registering in 1933 at all?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Did you ever join the Communist party?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Carr. Or the Young Communist League?
Mr. Inslerman. No, absolutely no reason. Actually, it goes
against my personal convictions.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Inslerman, where were you born?
Mr. Inslerman. New York City.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Inslerman. I spent more of my time going to school in
Middlesex County, Century, New Jersey. I graduated through
senior high school. Most of my public school I spent in
Brunswich and Trenton on a farm.
Mr. Schine. What college did you go to?
Mr. Inslerman. Cooper Union and also Brooklyn Polytechnic.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Clarence Hiskey?
Mr. Inslerman. No. I don't recall that name at all.
Mr. Schine. When you first went to work at Fort Monmouth,
what are the names of the reference you gave on your
application form?
Mr. Inslerman. Well, the one reference I would most likely
have would be Mr. Howell, a civil engineer.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Inslerman. H-o-w-e-l-l.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any of the other names?
Mr. Inslerman. I would assume that the people I worked for
would be on that. I would also give them as references. Mr.
George Houck, also Mr. George Uszmann.
Mr. Schine. What are the other names?
Mr. Inslerman. I can't recall any more.
Mr. Schine. That was in what year? 1934?
Mr. Inslerman. 1935, when I came to work.
Mr. Schine. Now, you have told us that you have been
against communism as far back as you knew about it and that it
was against your basic principles and also that you believed in
individualism.
Mr. Inslerman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Surely then you would recognize any Communists
with whom you had been in contact, or any Communists you may
have known over the years, either in your work, associates that
work with you----
Mr. Inslerman. No, that is a very difficult thing to do. I
didn't even recognize my brother as having any connection.
Mr. Schine. Are there any people that you have suspected of
being Communists who have worked with you or who are connected
with the army?
Mr. Inslerman. No.
Mr. Schine. Can you tell us the names of any individuals
that you have thought were Communists who don't work with you
or haven't worked with you?
Mr. Inslerman. I don't recall any names whatsoever.
Mr. Schine. Can you recall any individuals?
Mr. Inslerman. In connection with what?
Mr. Schine. That you believe were or are Communists,
disregarding their names for the moment?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I don't recall any such individuals.
Mr. Schine. Has any other member of your family ever been
connected with the Communist party besides your brother?
Mr. Inslerman. The only other member was my father who is
deceased.
Mr. Schine. I have no more questions. Thank you very much.
Mr. Cohn. Was your father a Communist?
Mr. Inslerman. No, I could very surely say he wasn't. He
was a very great believer in individualism and I think he was a
great follower of the Golden Rule too, and I don't believe
while he did have it very difficult, I don't think he ever
lifted his hand against his country.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much, Mr. Inslerman.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS K. COOKSON
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name for the record?
Mr. Cookson. Thomas K. Cookson.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Cookson. C-o-o-k-s-o-n.
Mr. Schine. You work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. Yes.
Mr. Schine. How long have you worked for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. Eleven years.
Mr. Schine. And what did you do before you went to work for
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. I had my own business, sign painter.
Mr. Schine. Is it true that you are a Socialist?
Mr. Cookson. Well, I have views I suppose----
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about your Socialist views?
Mr. Cookson. Well, my father was a member of the
Independent Labor party, Eidenberg, Scotland, and he educated
me in the way of that line, and I became a member of the
Independent Labor party, oh, way back in 1922, I believe.
Mr. Schine. When did you first come to the United States?
Mr. Cookson. November 13, 1928.
Mr. Schine. What are your views about the Communist system?
Mr. Cookson. I don't care about it.
Mr. Schine. At times you have been in favor of some of
their ideas, haven't you?
Mr. Cookson. Nationalization and such things as that.\4\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\4\ The transcript read ``Naturalization.''
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Mr. Schine. Would you elaborate on some of the Communist
forms of government that you are in favor of, or have been in
favor of.
Mr. Cookson. Communist forms of government?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Cookson. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Schine. Could you tell us some of the phases of the
Communist type of government or society you favor?
Mr. Cookson. I don't think I favor any of them.
Mr. Schine. You don't favor any of the Communist society?
Mr. Cookson. No. Their form of government or economy.
Mr. Schine. You have in the past, haven't you?
Mr. Cookson. I would say that.
Mr. Schine. You said you favored nationalization?
Mr. Cookson. I would say the Socialist point of view.
Mr. Schine. Haven't you believed the Communists have a
better form of the government than the United States?
Mr. Cookson. I wouldn't say that, no, sir.
Mr. Schine. Weren't you against our going into the Korean
War?
Mr. Cookson. Well, I didn't like the idea of any war.
Mr. Schine. Did you make the statement on several occasions
that ``The Communists will win the war.''
Mr. Cookson. Oh, no.
Mr. Schine. You have been under investigation, haven't you?
Mr. Cookson. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any Communist party members, had
discussions with them?
Mr. Cookson. Oh, when I was a pretty young man in the
Independent Labor party, we use to have debates.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any in the United States.
Mr. Cookson. Never.
Mr. Schine. You never came in contact with any?
Mr. Cookson. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you belonged to some political
associations in the United States?
Mr. Cookson. No, sir, never have.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties at the Signal Corps?
Mr. Cookson. I am a leader in the Sign Painting Section of
the Graphic Branch.
Mr. Schine. When did you become a citizen of the United
States?
Mr. Cookson. I am not quite sure of the date, but I think
it would be around 1934.
Mr. Schine. And you voted the Socialist ticket all the way
through?
Mr. Cookson. No, that is a peculiar thing. I am a
registered Republican.
Mr. Schine. You have never voted the Socialist ticket here?
Mr. Cookson. I don't think I have, no.
Mr. Schine. But you----
Mr. Cookson. Is it Fabian Socialism?
Mr. Cohn. Do you think the Republican party stands for
Fabian Socialism?
Mr. Cookson. No.
Mr. Schine. I have no further questions. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF DORIS SEIFERT
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name, please, and spell it?
Mrs. Seifert. Doris Seifert, S-e-i-f-e-r-t.
Mr. Schine. And where are you currently employed?
Mrs. Seifert. Field Training Department, Signal School.
Mr. Schine. When did you first join the Communist party?
Mrs. Seifert. I have never been a member of the Communist
party.
Mr. Schine. When did you first attend Communist party
meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. I have never to my knowledge attended
Communist party meetings.
Mr. Schine. Did you live with Communist party members?
Mrs. Seifert. May I explain.
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mrs. Seifert. When our home broke up, I was a little bit
younger, and there was a girl working in the same office--I was
working in an attorney's office at the time--who knew I had to
find another place to live. She offered to let me stay at her
house; that her mother would have no objection and I did.
Mr. Schine. What was her name?
Mrs. Seifert. Leader, Diana Leader.
Mr. Schine. And her mother and father's names?
Mrs. Seifert. William and Stephanie. He was separated from
the family and they were in the course of getting a divorce.
When I stayed there he visited there several times but he
didn't live there.
Mr. Schine. Did you know they were members of the Communist
party?
Mrs. Seifert. I can't say that from anything I heard her
say.
Mr. Schine. You suspected it?
Mrs. Seifert. I was told by someone else that they
suspected it.
Mr. Schine. How long did you live with them?
Mrs. Seifert. Approximately three months.
Mr. Schine. When did you first go to work for the Signal
Corps?
Mrs. Seifert. In October 1941.
Mr. Schine. I see. You were living with these Communists at
that time?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. I had my own apartment.
Mr. Schine. In other words, you left the Leader's home
prior to your going with the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Seifert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. You were in touch with William and Stephanie
Leader after you left their home?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. Well, not in any continuous touch. I
may have seen them on occasions.
Mr. Schine. You saw them from time to time?
Mrs. Seifert. Perhaps I did.
Mr. Schine. You remained friends with the daughter?
Mrs. Seifert. Acquaintances. We weren't close friends. I
thought it was a generous idea that she or her mother had.
Mr. Schine. What was the daughter's first name?
Mrs. Seifert. Diana.
Mr. Schine. She was working for the government at that
time?
Mrs. Seifert. She wasn't then, definitely.
Mr. Schine. When did she first take a position with the
government?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know exactly. I have not been in
close contact with the family.
Mr. Schine. Were William and Stephanie Leader employed by
the government?
Miss Seifert. I don't think so. She stayed at home. He was
a jeweler.
Mr. Cohn. What branch of the government did Diana go to?
Mrs. Seifert. I have no idea.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true you were associated with members
of the Communist party from time to time?
Mrs. Seifert. Not to my knowledge, sir. If I did associate
with other than Mr. Leader--at the time I had no intentions, I
didn't move there knowing they were Communists; I didn't stay
there knowing they were Communists. It was a necessary move at
the time.
Mr. Schine. Didn't you discuss communism with the Leaders?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Didn't you talk about government?
Mrs. Seifert. We may have talked socially about communism.
We didn't discuss it at any length.
Mr. Schine. They didn't specify any sympathy for the
Russian form of government?
Mrs. Seifert. They may have had sympathies for such as
wanted that form of government. That is as far as I ever
thought about it.
Mr. Schine. You can't recall any conversations about
communism?
Mrs. Seifert. That was ten years ago, more than ten years
ago.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have a loyalty hearing?
Mrs. Seifert. I asked for one. I'd like to know why they
haven't been able to clear me. I had a clearance withdrawn in
1938. I couldn't find out why. I couldn't get anybody to face
me with the charges or anything.
Mr. Schine. Would you give us the names of the individuals
that you know to be Communist party members that you have known
over the years?
Mrs. Seifert. I know of no one other than Mr. Leader.
Mr. Cohn. Who met with Mr. Leader? Did you meet any of his
friends?
Mrs. Seifert. I worked with an attorney who was his
attorney.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mrs. Seifert. Samuel Epstein.
Mr. Cohn. Where was that?
Mrs. Seifert. The location of that was 701 Mattson Avenue,
Ashbury.
Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Epstein a Communist?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know that he was. To my knowledge, he
was not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear that he was?
Mrs. Seifert. No.
Mr. Schine. Is any member of your family connected with the
Communist party?
Mrs. Seifert. Not to my knowledge, sir.
Mr. Schine. Are you married?
Mrs. Seifert. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Does your husband work for the government?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you were in touch with
Miss Leader?
Mrs. Seifert. I met them on the boardwalk this summer. They
happened to be on the same stretch of the boardwalk that we
were on. Mrs. Leader was sitting with some friends of hers. I
think Diana was there also.
Mr. Schine. You say Mr. Leader has a jewelry store. Is Mrs.
Leader employed?
Mrs. Seifert. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. What was the address of their home?
Mrs. Seifert. I can't give you the exact number, 700
something Brinley Avenue, Bradley Beach.
Mr. Schine. Where was this located?
Mrs. Seifert. Bradley Beach.
Mr. Schine. Did they have frequent visitors to their home?
Mrs. Seifert. They had very little company, no.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us the names of some of the
individuals that came to see them regularly?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know of anyone, sir, during the time
I was there. I wouldn't remember a single person. They were
quite retirish, not much socially. They were separated at the
time.
Mr. Schine. Both were in the party?
Mrs. Seifert. I didn't make that statement. Someone who
suspected it told me that. I have no knowledge about either one
of them.
Mr. Schine. Who told you that?
Mrs. Seifert. Mr. Epstein, the attorney. He said they were
fools or some sort of eccentrics. He said it just like that. He
may have been kidding. I say he told me that is the truth.
Mr. Schine. Did they express sympathy for the Russian form
of government?
Mrs. Seifert. I never discussed politics with them.
Mr. Schine. Aside from what Mr. Epstein told you, you had
no reason to believe they were connected with the Communist
movement?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you any reason in your mind why your
security was lifted?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. I have no idea, sir. I have tried to
find out. I have no idea at all. I will admit I have had poor
associates. I will confess that, but I got away as soon as I
found out they were bad. I don't feel that I have ever done
anything disloyal which makes me a security risk.
Mr. Schine. Tell us about your poor associations.
Mrs. Seifert. Well, first of all, there is a former
associate, he used to work for the government but has been
dropped. When I was single I worked very close to him and he
invited me home to dinner.
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mrs. Seifert. Louis Kaplan.
Mr. Schine. That is the Communist Louis Kaplan? He was
discharged for being a Communist?
Mrs. Seifert. I heard rumors.
Mr. Schine. Was he working at Watson Laboratories?
Mrs. Seifert. I knew him at the standards agency, where we
both worked at the time.
Mr. Schine. When was that?
Mrs. Seifert. 1946 or 1948, I believe.
Mr. Schine. What did he look like?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know. Medium light, very ordinary
looking person. Dark hair, I think.
Mr. Schine. You spent some time with Louis Kaplan?
Mrs. Seifert. I had dinner at his house a couple of times.
At that time he was mixed up with an organization known as the
National Council for American-Soviet Friendship.
Mr. Schine. He was at that time associated with the
National Council for American Soviet Friendship?
Mrs. Seifert. It was just after the war and I guess some
people got carried away--rather not go to war with Russia. He
had organization meetings at his house. I attended two of them.
They were entirely not in my line.
Mr. Schine. You did attend some of these meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. Two, yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Will you give us the names of some of the
individuals you saw there?
Mrs. Seifert. I know this sounds funny but I don't remember
a single one. Mr. Kaplan and his wife and that is all. I
wouldn't know them if I saw them.
Mr. Schine. Did any of them work at Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Schine. Kaplan and his wife were connected with the
organization?
Mrs. Seifert. I couldn't say ``yes'' or ``no.'' I was at
their home and they had meetings.
Mr. Schine. You say that you worked together?
Mrs. Seifert. Well, not in the same office; in the same
agency.
Mr. Schine. At that time he was handling classified
material was he not?
Mrs. Seifert. I believe he was. Almost everybody was in
that agency.
Mr. Schine. Will you tell us about your other poor
associations?
Mrs. Seifert. Well, I don't again know that there was
anything wrong but I feel there is. They had a CIO union trying
to organize in the Federal Employees Union and I went to one or
two meetings. Again, I didn't like the smell and left.
Mr. Schine. Who asked you to attend?
Mrs. Seifert. I can't remember, frankly.
Mr. Schine. With whom did you go?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't remember. I may have gone alone.
Mr. Schine. You don't remember being asked to attend this
meeting?
Mrs. Seifert. It may have been Mr. Kaplan. I can't tie that
in my mind.
Mr. Schine. Tell us about your other poor associations.
Mrs. Seifert. Those are the only two that I consider
questionable--the union meeting and Louis Kaplan.
Mr. Schine. With whom was Louis Kaplan friendly?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't know who his friends were, sir.
Mr. Schine. Will you try and think. It could be of great
value to us.
Mrs. Seifert. I want to think. I don't want to mention
people casually and get them in trouble. I know who he worked
with. I don't know that he saw them socially. I have never seen
anybody I knew or knew the names of in his home.
Mr. Schine. You have had recent contact with Mr. Kaplan,
have you not?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir. I have not.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you were in contact with
him?
Mrs. Seifert. At least 1948 when he left the government
agency. I have never had further contact with him at all.
Mr. Schine. Try and think of the names of individuals who
worked with you and also mingled with them socially, if you
can.
Mrs. Seifert. Really, I don't know that there was one
actually. I want to help.
Mr. Schine. When you had dinner at his home, who else was
present?
Mrs. Seifert. His wife and I believe that is all.
Generally, when they had the meetings, it was after supper that
the other people came. I didn't pay too much attention.
Mr. Schine. You attended dinners at his home several times?
Mrs. Seifert. I might suggest only dinner once and perhaps
two meetings in all.
Mr. Schine. With whom did you attend meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. Just myself.
Mr. Schine. They talked about the Communist party at the
meetings?
Mrs. Seifert. Not that I remember, sir. I don't remember
parliamentary things, only something about membership.
Mr. Schine. Weren't you asked to join the party?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Do you feel the party was making overtures to
you?
Mrs. Seifert. I did not then feel so. I don't know now how
I feel about it. I think maybe they thought I was the kind of
person they could lure into the party that way.
Mr. Schine. Do you think you were being sized up by the
party?
Mrs. Seifert. Do I now think so? It is hard to say. I don't
know Kaplan to be a Communist. I don't want to implicate
anybody unless I have the facts.
Mr. Schine. At these meetings, what happened?
Mrs. Seifert. I don't even remember. I didn't get very
interested. As I say, I don't remember what happened. I wish I
could help you with something more, but I don't know anymore.
Mr. Schine. You say Louis Kaplan was the only poor
association you feel you had. Can you think of any associates
you feel the committee might think to be poor?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. From a loyalty standpoint?
Mrs. Seifert. I will try to think. I honestly can't.
Mr. Schine. Anybody you have come in contact with?
Mrs. Seifert. I really don't know. You can know a person
socially and still not know their politics are something.
Mr. Schine. Have you had some access to classified material
since your security clearance was lifted?
Mrs. Seifert. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You haven't seen classified material?
Mrs. Seifert. I have seen it, but I have not been near it.
Mr. Schine. You have seen it?
Mrs. Seifert. Do you mean seen the outside cover or the
contents?
Mr. Schine. You probably could have seen it if you wanted
to?
Mrs. Seifert. I doubt it. The place I work they are very
careful. Nobody handles them unless they are cleared.
Mr. Schine. All right. Thank you very much for coming here
and you may go. If we need you again, we will call you.
Mrs. Seifert. Do I have any right to ask what is to become
of me? From all of the evidence, is there any reason to believe
I will be suspended?
Mr. Schine. That is up to the army. We are just gathering
material as you read in the newspapers. It is up to the army
what they do with you. We will turn some of the material over
to the army but it is their decision.
Thank you.
STATEMENT OF LAFAYETTE POPE
Mr. Schine. Will you please give us your name?
Mr. Pope. Lafayette Pope.
Mr. Schine. And you are currently employed where?
Mr. Pope. At Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. In what department do you work?
Mr. Pope. Instructor, export branch.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties?
Mr. Pope. Warehouseman.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. Pope. At this position?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Pope. Oh, about a year.
Mr. Schine. What were you doing before that?
Mr. Pope. I was a laborer at Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been employed at Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Pope. Since I started?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Pope. Since 1942.
Mr. Schine. And what did you do before that?
Mr. Pope. I was a laborer.
Mr. Schine. Where did you work?
Mr. Pope. At Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. Before you went to work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Pope. I started at Camp Evans.
Mr. Schine. How long have you worked for the army
altogether?
Mr. Pope. I started December 1942, to the present.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been under investigation at Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Pope. I think once.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about that. What happened?
Mr. Pope. Yes, sir. I was just called down for a loyalty
test, I think they called it.
Mr. Schine. What did they tell you there?
Mr. Pope. They didn't say anything to me personally.
Mr. Schine. Didn't they ask you some questions? Did they
tell you some charges had been made against you?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. What did they ask you?
Mr. Pope. They asked me something about my car being in a
certain place. I told them ``no'' I didn't know anything about
that.
Mr. Schine. Do you know that your car was parked where a
Communist party meeting was being held?
Mr. Pope. I told them that time that was wrong. My car
wasn't there.
Mr. Schine. You checked the date that they said your car
was parked near the meeting and you knew it had been parked
somewhere else?
Mr. Pope. That is right.
Mr. Schine. What did they reply to that?
Mr. Pope. That was all they asked about that.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true you loaned your car to somebody
from time to time?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. You never loaned your car out to anybody?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. Do you know anyone who might have used your car
to get transportation to this place?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you drop anybody off at this place?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been near this place?
Mr. Pope. No. I don't even know where it is at.
Mr. Schine. How do you think they could have come to the
conclusion this was your car if it wasn't?
Mr. Pope. I don't know. There must be some mistake
somewhere.
Mr. Schine. You are a member of some organizations?
Mr. Pope. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us the names of those
organizations?
Mr. Pope. Can I hand them to you?
[The witness handed a paper to Mr. Schine.]
Mr. Schine. Do you belong to any other organizations?
Mr. Pope. That is all.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why you might be
under investigation?
Mr. Pope. No, I haven't.
Mr. Schine. You haven't known any Communist party members?
Mr. Pope. No.
Mr. Schine. Nor associated with any?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever attended any meetings?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever discussed communism with anyone?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to any front organizations?
Mr. Pope. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. We appreciate your coming here today, and we
wont need you anymore. If we do, we will let you know.
Thank you very much.
STATEMENT OF RALPH IANNARONE
Mr. Schine. State your name for the record, please?
Mr. Iannarone. I-a-n-n-a-r-o-n-e.
Mr. Schine. Where are you employed?
Mr. Iannarone. At the Field Engineering Branch, Signal
Corps Engineering Laboratory, Watson Area, Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know someone named Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Iannarone. No, I do not. There use to be a girl working
there, Eleanor Glassman.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Eleanor's sister?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Cohn. But you knew Eleanor?
Mr. Iannarone. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When did she work with you?
Mr. Iannarone. Approximately 1941 and 1942, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. And did you know she was a Communist?
Mr. Iannarone. No, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. How did she get that job with you?
Mr. Iannarone. As I remember, she was one of a group of
girls that were hired back at the beginning of the war as
professional assistants, JPAs. She was one of a half a dozen
girls that came to the section out of tens of hundreds that
might have been employed at that time.
Mr. Schine. Were you friendly with this lady?
Mr. Iannarone. Only as a business associate, not outside
the laboratory. She was one of several girls that worked either
for me or in the section at that time.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have an argument or fight with
her?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why she would want
to hurt you?
Mr. Iannarone. No, I can't.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why she would want
to get you into trouble? We have testimony from her concerning
you and when the chairman of the committee asked whether or not
you were a member of the Communist party to her knowledge, she
refused to answer that question on the grounds that if she
answered it truthfully, she might tend to incriminate herself.
Can you tell us anything about her, her associates, her
activities?
Try and think back and give us all the information you can,
if you will please.
Mr. Iannarone. No, I have difficulty even remembering the
girl. I have a vague recollection of what she looked like,
except I couldn't picture her face at all. I remember she was
just there for a short time. The little bit of recollection I
have of her, she was a very pleasant person. I can't remember
anything about the work, whether she was among the best or
poorest of people we had. I remember she resigned in perhaps
1942; then she used my name as a reference going to school. I
got two letters, one from the Columbia School of Social Science
and another from Smith College, and there was a form letter
saying she had used my name as a reference and would I please
reply by answering certain questions.
I replied to both letters saying I knew her during her
employment in the laboratory; that she was in my section; and
as far as I knew--the usual words. Nothing against her or I
wasn't trying to build her up particularly. My acquaintance was
fairly short, perhaps six months or a year. I have copies of
those letters, routine type of thing.
Mr. Schine. What year was this?
Mr. Iannarone. I would guess 1942. Perhaps late 1941.
Mr. Schine. Could you tell us about your association?
Mr. Iannarone. I have never met her outside the office. I
never had anything to do with her outside the office.
Mr. Schine. What department were you in at the time?
Mr. Iannarone. Well, I was in the P. L. and M. Section,
Parts Lists and Maintenance Parts Section.
Mr. Schine. Did you handle classified work in your office?
Mr. Iannarone. Probably so, although in parts work there is
very little classified work.
Mr. Schine. She would have access to any classified work
you did handle?
Mr. Iannarone. Probably so. I think everybody that came in
had clearance and she could have handled it.
Mr. Schine. Did you know at any time after that that she
was tied up with the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I never heard her name mentioned again until
last week in the paper I saw Vivian Glassman. I looked it up in
the file not remembering whether it was Vivian or Eleanor. That
is the first time I had heard the name. In discussions I
learned that Eleanor might have been Vivian's sister.
Mr. Schine. Did Julius Rosenberg ever have occasion to
visit your office?
Mr. Iannarone. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. Did she ever talk about her friends or anything
to you?
Mr. Iannarone. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Carr. What information can you give for her taking the
Fifth Amendment as to whether or not you were a member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I can't possibly conceive of why she would
do it.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever sympathetic?
Mr. Iannarone. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever a member of any organization which
has been designated as a Communist front?
Mr. Iannarone. Never, not to my knowledge. I am not a
joiner. I belong to three organizations, Knights of Columbus,
Holy Name Society--I went into the service in October 1942 and
I think this association must have been before. I was out of
the laboratory about three months and came back in a different
section. Although I am just guessing now, it might have been
after I was in the service. The contact was no more than
supervisor over fifteen or thirty girls.
Mr. Carr. There were thirty people in the section and she
was one of the thirty people. She used your name as a reference
on two occasions after her leaving.
Mr. Iannarone. Immediately after leaving she used my name
on two occasions, both at the same time, evidently she applied
for college graduate work. I haven't seen her since.
Mr. Carr. Maybe you can give us some help on one further
point here, that is regarding the name of individuals you have
known who were tied up with the subversive movement.
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Would you repeat the question? The only other name I can
think of was another fellow who was fired named Joel Barr.
Mr. Carr. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. Iannarone. He was, I believe, in the same section about
the same time, and I remember he was suspended one day, much to
everyone's surprise. This is the only other person, besides
this girl if you say she was mixed up with Communists, that I
know about.
Mr. Carr. Could you tell us any more about this incident
with Joel Barr?
Mr. Iannarone. No, nothing except it came as a complete
surprise to everyone at the time.
Mr. Carr. You can't tell us anything more?
Mr. Iannarone. I can tell you a little more. He was one of
those people that everybody in the section liked. He was a
likable fellow. It was the first incident which ever came to my
knowledge and most everybody else's of somebody being picked
out of the place and suspended. Everybody's sympathy went to
the fellow. We couldn't understand on what basis the man was
suspended. At that time half a dozen or perhaps a dozen
petitions were circulating around the place. I signed a
petition to the commanding officer of the laboratory to please
very carefully consider whether he had done the right thing, to
review the situation. My name wound up on one of the petitions.
I signed one of them. I am sorry I ever did. It has been
bothering me ever since. Evidently that was the only petition
that ever got in. The rest of them got torn up or something.
Some of the people got hold of them and got their names off.
Mr. Carr. This petition was originated by whom?
Mr. Iannarone. I don't remember.
Mr. Carr. Do you know who the main circulator of the
petition was?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Carr. You don't know who wrote it or what----
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Carr. What happened to Joel Barr?
Mr. Iannarone. I never heard of him until the other day
someone said Joel Barr's name was in the papers and he is
possibly behind the iron curtain.
Mr. Carr. Do you know why he was suspended?
Mr. Iannarone. I have no idea.
Mr. Carr. He was a close friend of Glassman's, was he not?
Mr. Iannarone. I didn't know that.
Mr. Carr. Just one more question. Before, we had a girl who
refused to answer whether or not she knew you were a member of
the Communist party. This girl was one of thirty employees of
yours. It could be that she was frightened, afraid, scared,
maybe not answering any questions, but now we have a girl who
was closely associated with the Rosenberg spy trial, closely
associated with Joel Barr; we have your statement that you
signed a petition for Joel Barr's behalf; we have a girl
refusing to say whether or not you are a member of the
Communist party.
Mr. Iannarone. I was one of perhaps one hundred people who
signed the petition.
Mr. Carr. But you were the one she refused to say whether
or not you were a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I can't explain why she would do that. As I
said, I only knew her when she worked there as an employee. I
had no relationship socially or other than right in the office.
Mr. Carr. It is your statement now that you have never been
a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Iannarone. I have never been a member of the Communist
party or any party looked upon as subversive or even close to
subversive. I am categorically not a Communist.
Mr. Carr. Do you remember other individuals who signed this
petition?
Mr. Iannarone. Yes, I do. I have a copy of the petition.
Mr. Carr. Oh, fine. That will help us quite a bit.
Mr. Iannarone. I am sorry I put my name on it. Most of the
petitions were torn up at the time. People learned somewhere or
other that this was a Communist thing. I didn't know it at the
time I signed it.
Mr. Carr. Do you know Robert Ullmann?
Mr. Iannarone. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. He has a brother----
Mr. Iannarone. I didn't know he had a brother.
Mr. Carr. Did you know he was any relation to Marcel
Ullmann? Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Iannarone. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you originate this petition?
Mr. Iannarone. I don't think so.
Mr. Cohn. I asked that because your name is the first one.
Mr. Iannarone. Unfortunately my name got on the top of one.
There were about ten around at the time.
Mr. Carr. Weren't you a friend of Barr's?
Mr. Iannarone. Not any more so than Eleanor Glassman's.
Mr. Carr. How was it you were so happy to go to bat for
him?
Mr. Iannarone. It came as a complete surprise. The fellow
was a likeable fellow. He had been with us a year and got along
well with people. It was a complete shock to everyone and their
sympathy went with the fellow.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know where he is now?
Mr. Iannarone. I heard the other day he is behind the Iron
Curtain.
Mr. Schine. May we have this copy. We have no further
questions. If we need you again we will ask you to come back.
Mr. Cohn. You can't tell us who hired this Eleanor
Glassman?
Mr. Iannarone. The personnel department does all the
hiring.
Mr. Cohn. Who was head of the personnel department at that
time?
Mr. Iannarone. I don't remember at that time.
Mr. Schine. Have you some other papers with you?
Mr. Iannarone. That is the only thing. I didn't know at the
time whether I was a friendly or unfriendly witness. You might
say something to a person what it is all about. I spent a
couple of miserable nights after being called. I went through
the files after I remembered that thing. I thought that might
be the reason and pulled it out of the file.
Mr. Schine. We appreciate your coming in. We call a lot of
people in an effort to find out all of the facts.
Mr. Iannarone. I will help in any way I can.
STATEMENT OF SAUL FINKELSTEIN
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name, please?
Mr. Finkelstein. Saul Finkelstein.
Mr. Schine. Where are you working?
Mr. Finkelstein. I work at Watson, Area A.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Finkelstein. At Watson Area or the general Signal
Corps?
Mr Schine. The Signal Corps?
Mr. Finkelstein. Sixteen years.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties?
Mr. Finkelstein. Chief of the Radar Metan and General
Equipment Section of the Field Engineering Branch.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties there?
Mr. Finkelstein. Briefly stated, our section is in charge
of the initiation of production guiding, initiation production
of Signal Corps equipment.
Mr. Schine. You have access to classified material?
Mr. Finkelstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. You have been cleared for top secret?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir up to secret.
Mr. Schine. You have been handling secret material for a
number of years?
Mr. Finkelstein. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Do you know someone by the name Glassman?
Mr. Finkelstein. What is the first name?
Mr. Schine. Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Eleanor Glassman?
Mr. Finkelstein. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about your acquaintance with
Eleanor Glassman, please?
Mr. Finkelstein. About 1941 or 1942, I don't remember the
exact year, the laboratory hired a number of girls and called
them JPAs, Junior Professional Assistants. Their duties were to
help in the preparation of specifications.
Mr. Schine. Now, did you know Eleanor Glassman well?
Mr. Finkelstein. Just in the work.
Mr. Schine. Did you have a fight with her?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any reason why she might want
to harm you?
Mr. Finkelstein. No.
Mr. Schine. When she was asked whether or not you were a
member of the Communist party, she refused to answer on the
grounds if she did, she might tend to incriminate herself. Can
you think of any reason she may have done that?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been connected with the Communist
party?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any Communists?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Eleanor Glassman was a Communist?
Mr. Finkelstein. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. You never knew she was?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been tied up with any front
organizations?
Mr. Finkelstein. I would say, between 1932 and 1938, I
belonged to what is now called a front organization. It was a
fraternal organization in which I took out insurance.
Mr. Schine. What was the name of the organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't know the name it was called at
that time. It has since been called the International Worker's
Order.
Mr. Schine. You belonged to that group for six years?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't remember the exact time.
Mr. Schine. Up to about 1938 you attended meetings?
Mr. Finkelstein. My recollection is one or two meetings to
pay dues.
Mr. Schine. At that time you were working for the army?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't remember when I left the
organization, probably either the end of 1937 or 1938. I was
probably working for the army.
Mr. Schine. Did you know that was a Communist-dominated
organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. No.
Mr. Schine. Do you know that now? Have you ever known it
since?
Mr. Finkelstein. I understand that organization has now
been declared subversive.
Mr. Schine. Who got you to join that organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. My recollection is that it was some
friends who advised me. I needed some insurance and also
medical advice.
Mr. Schine. Do you know his name?
Mr. Finkelstein. To the best of my recollection, I can't
say who asked me to join.
Mr. Schine. What was the name?
Mr. Finkelstein. Rubinowitz.
Mr. Schine. Sol Rubinowitz?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, he was a man that came from the same
town with me. His name was George Rubinowitz.
Mr. Schine. Was he working for the Signal Corps.? Where was
he working?
Mr. Finkelstein. He either had a grocery or something.
Mr. Schine. Would you spell his name?
Mr. Finkelstein. To the best of my recollection, R-u-b-i-n-
o-w-i-t-z.
Mr. Schine. Was he an active member of this organization?
Mr. Finkelstein. I don't know whether he was a member.
Mr. Schine. He advised you to join----
Mr. Finkelstein. He advised me--we were discussing my
financial situation. I needed medical advice and he said, ``Why
don't you join this organization.''
Mr. Schine. Any other organizations listed as subversive by
the attorney general?
Mr. Finkelstein. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us any information on Eleanor
Glassman's associates, people she mingled with socially?
Mr. Finkelstein. Frankly, I don't know. All the girls were
friendly with each other.
Mr. Schine. Did they go out socially with some of the men
working in the office?
Mr. Finkelstein. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Schine. You wouldn't know?
Mr. Finkelstein. No.
Mr. Schine. Was she particularly friendly with any of the
girls working in the office?
Mr. Finkelstein. I frankly can't remember whether she was
or not. They were all together, came from one school. They were
all friendly together. I couldn't tell.
Mr. Schine. I have no more questions. Thank you very much.
We will call you if we need you.
STATEMENT OF ABRAHAM LEPATO
Mr. Carr. Would you give us your name, please?
Mr. Lepato. Abraham Lepato.
Mr. Carr. Any middle initial?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. What is your address?
Mr. Lepato. 1317 Evergreen Avenue, Wanamassa, New Jersey,
Allenhurst 31237R.
Mr. Carr. Are you employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Lepato. Evans.
Mr. Carr. In what capacity?
Mr. Lepato. Technician.
Mr. Carr. What particular branch?
Mr. Lepato. Thermionics.
Mr. Carr. Who is your supervisor?
Mr. Lepato. Right now Harry Owens is section chief.
Mr. Carr. Are you cleared for secret work?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir. I haven't been for two years.
Mr. Carr. Can you explain your relationship with Louie
Kaplan?
Mr. Lepato. There are two. Which one do you mean?
Mr. Carr. Louie Kaplan, who left the Signal Corps, I think,
in 1947.
Mr. Lepato. Yes, sir. I believe he lived right next door.
He moved into 27 Washington Village in 1943. I moved in in 1943
and they moved in right after. I don't remember when; a few
months later. I moved from Washington Village in December of
1949. From 1943 to 1949 we were neighbors at Washington
Village.
Mr. Carr. What is his wife's name?
Mr. Lepato. Ruth.
Mr. Carr. And your wife's name is Sadie?
Mr. Lepato. Yes.
Mr. Carr. During the period that you were neighbors, how
close were you?
Mr. Lepato. Well, as close as neighbors. We visited back
and forth and talked across the fence. We did go into their
house. They came into our house. Living together for five years
you get to know a person next door.
Mr. Lepato. Could I say something?
Mr. Carr. Yes
Mr. Lepato. I volunteered testimony to the FBI for two and
a half hours concerning this.
Mr. Carr. Could you tell us a little something about
Kaplan. When did you first discover he had Communist
affiliations?
Mr. Lepato. Well, I can't remember dates. They are very
vague. I know his wife was always sending envelopes to the
Soviet Friendship Committee or something during the war and
doing Russian war relief. She was always a person to push
herself ahead in anything that happened. They use to have
meetings in her house continuously, night after night and she
was always going all over.
Mr. Carr. Did you and your wife attend any of these
meetings?
Mr. Lepato. I will tell you exactly what I did attend with
him. After he moved in he asked me to attend a union meeting
with him. He had no car. I drove him to the union meeting on
Springwood Avenue, Ashley Place, Murry Cardinals Athletic Club.
I never went again. That is the only time I went to the union
meeting. I didn't join the union.
Mr. Carr. What union?
Mr. Lepato. To tell you the truth, I don't remember.
Mr. Carr. Could it have been the Federal Workers--United
Federal Workers?
Mr. Lepato. I think so. I went there with him.
Mr. Carr. That is the only meeting you went to with him?
Mr. Lepato. In 1948, presidential elections, we use to have
a community hall in Washington Village and whoever wanted to
could get it if they asked for it. They had a meeting of the
Progressive party. My wife and I--we lived right across from
it--went to see what it was all about. Seeing that Ruth and Lou
Kaplan were involved, both of us refused to join. We left the
meeting.
Mr. Carr. Did you discontinue your association with them
once you knew they were Communists?
Mr. Lepato. I never had any political association with
them. We were social with them.
Mr. Carr. Your wife was very friendly with his wife, wasn't
she?
Mr. Lepato. Neighbors, not political.
Mr. Carr. She never attended any of the women's socials of
the National Council of American-Soviet Friendship?
Mr. Lepato. Never belonged; never attended.
Mr. Carr. She didn't help out with the Russian war relief?
Mr. Lepato. I don't believe she did.
Mr. Carr. When you say you did give this information to the
FBI, did you mean you were giving it to the FBI during the
period you lived there?
Mr. Lepato. No, they never came to me. In December they
called me down. The FBI security officer asked me about
Coleman, Ducore, Yamins, and that is all he wanted to know. I
asked did he have any time to spend with me; if he would please
sit down and listen to what I had to say. He listened to me and
I spoke to him for over two hours, I think. He asked me
questions and I told him everything I knew what I told him was
a small part of what had happened over five years. I invited
him to my house to see my wife since she knew them well also
and she could give them more information and he said they would
come but they never did.
Mr. Carr. You say you didn't join this Progressive party in
1948?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir. I never did. They had a meeting. I
think Wallace spoke at Gimbel's place. They asked me to go
along.
I refused to go along. I knew he didn't have a chance and I
wanted to vote for somebody else.
Mr. Carr. Since the Kaplans moved from their residence next
door to you, have you had contact with them?
Mr. Lepato. Well, I walked into Sears and Roebuck a year
ago and saw Ruth Kaplan and walked out. I walked into
Steinbeck's and saw her and turned around and went to the floor
below. I dread them like the worst disease, like cholera.
Mr. Carr. The situation appears that you were very friendly
at one time.
Mr. Lepato. As neighbors, nothing but neighbors.
Mr. Carr. The part I don't quite understand, when did you
start avoiding them?
Mr. Lepato. A few years before we moved.
Mr. Carr. Was that after you found out they were
Communists?
Mr. Lepato. Well, let me say this. Louis Kaplan worked for
the government up until 1947. From what I understand now, he
wasn't suspended or anything. He was allowed to resign. They
gave him a party when he left. He got a briefcase or something
as a gift when he left. Also, I understand he got a civilian
meritorious award while he worked for the government.
Mr. Cohn. Which government?
Mr. Lepato. The Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. Is he the only Communist you know?
Mr. Lepato. I believe so. I know his brother-in-law. I know
his sister-in-law, Sokel.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Lepato. I figured he married into that family and he
knew what he was doing.
They asked me about a fellow, Bennet Davis. I didn't
remember the name. I knew a fellow, Ben Davis, who was a friend
of Kaplan. I understood he was the same way.
Mr. Cohn. Who else did you see around Kaplan's place?
Mr. Lepato. I did meet her sister, I think it was.
Mr. Cohn. What was her name?
Mr. Lepato. I don't remember.
Mr. Cohn. How about people from Fort Monmouth or Watson?
Mr. Lepato. The only one I had pointed out to me worked at
Evans was Ullmann.
Mr. Cohn. Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Lepato. Yes. They were pretty friendly. I saw him there
a few times.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Ullmann?
Mr. Lepato. Not on the outside. I may have spoken to him in
the place.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Lepato. Not until I saw he knew the Kaplans.
Mr. Carr. Mr. Lepato, your association with Kaplan did not
continue after he moved away?
Mr. Lepato. I moved away before him.
Mr. Carr. You never called him?
Mr. Lepato. I never saw him since. I was never in his new
home after he moved away.
Mr. Carr. You never visited with Ullmann?
Mr. Lepato. No, sir. I never knew where he lived and never
visited him.
Mr. Carr. How about Ben Davis, the friend of Kaplan's?
Mr. Lepato. I never visited his house.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Lepato. I don't believe he worked for the government,
no. I walked into a radio store in Ashbury Park and I saw him
in there and I turned around and walked away. Honestly I did.
Mr. Carr. That is all, I guess. Thank you,
STATEMENT OF IRVING ROSENHEIM
Mr. Cohn. Give us your full name.
Mr. Rosenheim. Irving L. Rosenheim.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work?
Mr. Rosenheim. Armed Service Electrical Standards Agency.
Mr. Cohn. At Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Rosenheim. At Monmouth, off the reservation.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you worked for the Armed Services
Electrical Standards Agency?
Mr. Rosenheim. Since February 16, 1943. It has had various
names but it is basically the standards agency.
Mr. Cohn. Does it have any connection with the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Rosenheim. At present, no. It started as the original
Signal Corps Standards Agency handling that type of work. It
became the Army Electrical Standards Agency; then it became the
Army-Navy Electrical Standards Agency and then the Armed
Services. It seemed an independent agency sponsored by the
three departments.
Mr. Cohn. Now, what are the three departments?
Mr. Rosenheim. Army, navy and air force.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do some work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Rosenheim. We don't work directly for them, sponsored
by them.
Mr. Cohn. Do you do work on classified material?
Mr. Rosenheim. I was before I was declassified and
suspended authorized to handle it but never used----
Mr. Cohn. When were you suspended?
Mr. Rosenheim. Tuesday. Just last week, Tuesday.
Mr. Cohn. Did you get a letter of charges?
Mr. Rosenheim. No, I did not. They said it would be mailed
to me.
Mr. Cohn. You have not been given any information as to the
exact nature of the charges on which you were suspended?
Mr. Rosenheim. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever a registered member of the American
Labor party?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Rosenheim. Quite a few years back. I got out when the
left-wing took over. I guess that was about six years ago.
Mr. Cohn. That was the United Federal Workers of America?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. You say you were a member until six or seven
years ago?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Louie Kaplan?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know that he is a Communist?
Mr. Rosenheim. I was told that by the executive officer
about six months after he quit.
Mr. Cohn. You had no reason to suspect it before?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes, when he got declassified I got
suspicious.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you know him?
Mr. Rosenheim. I knew him at work, and, I believe, in
Brooklyn. He lived out there.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ride back and forth to work when he lived
out there?
Mr. Rosenheim. I may have met him on the train
occasionally. I don't recall definitely yes or definitely no.
We did work together. That was basically the full contact.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever say anything during your work which
led you to believe he was a Communist or Communist sympathizer?
Mr. Rosenheim. The only thing he said something about you
can't blame me for what my wife does. He quit in a hurry after
he was declassified. I figured that his wife was doing
something.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Consumer's
Union?
Mr. Rosenheim. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Rosenheim. I don't know when I started. I quit it about
six or seven years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that was under Communist domination?
Mr. Rosenheim. No, and I will tell you why I quit. About
that time, before I quit, the president refused to take the
loyalty oath. I couldn't see why. He worked for the government
and I couldn't see why he didn't, so I said, ``To hell with
it.'' I didn't want to get tied up and quit.
Mr. Cohn. When you were with the United Federal Workers of
America, did you participate in a speaking program?
Mr. Rosenheim. I never attended meetings. All I did was pay
dues when they asked me.
Mr. Cohn. You never had anything to do with arranging for
any speakers?
Mr. Rosenheim. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you acquainted with any other Communists,
either at your work or outside?
Mr. Rosenheim. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Any people you believe or had reason to believe
or grounds to suspect----
Mr. Rosenheim. I leave the house at five and get home at
7:00, so you see how much social life I have outside.
Mr. Cohn. There is nobody in addition to Kaplan you can
tell us about?
Mr. Rosenheim. Wait a minute. There was a guy by the name
of Lavene. He worked at the agency for a few months. I didn't
know him. He wasn't in my section. He was caught in reduction-
in-force and at an agency staff meeting, he made a crack which
led me to believe he was one of those guys.
Mr. Cohn. What was his first name?
Mr. Rosenheim. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Outside of those, you don't know of anybody.
Mr. Rosenheim. Let me think if I can be suspicious.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody you had reasonable grounds to believe?
Mr. Rosenheim. No.
Mr. Cohn. You testimony is that you left the Consumer's
Union and the American Labor party and United Federal Workers
when you discovered the group--had reason to believe they were
Communist dominated?
Mr. Rosenheim. Not Communist necessarily, but I didn't like
the way they were going on. I left the AFL when the left-wing
took over. They had a big fight and that is when I quit.
[Doris Seifert returned and stated that she desired to add
to her testimony, in response to a previous question asked her,
that she knew a man by the name of, ``Galler'' through Lou
Kaplan.]
STATEMENT OF RICHARD JONES, JR.
Mr. Carr. Your name is Richard Jones?
Mr. Jones. Jones, Jr.
Mr. Carr. What is your address?
Mr. Jones. 949 Woodgate Avenue, Elberon.
Mr. Carr. What is your telephone number?
Mr. Jones. Long Branch 6573W.
Mr. Carr. Are you presently employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Carr. You have security clearance?
Mr. Jones. I think so. I am sure----
Mr. Carr. What is your position now?
Mr. Jones. More or less the bookkeeper, Department of
Finance.
Mr. Carr. Did you know a man named George W. Good?
Mr. Jones. No, I don't.
Mr. Carr. You are sure you don't know a man named George
Good of Wanarnassa, New Jersey?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. Your address is 949 Woodgate, Elberon?
Mr. Jones. Right.
Mr. Carr. What kind of automobile do you have?
Mr. Jones. 1952 Ford.
Mr. Carr. How long have you had that?
Mr. Jones. About two weeks, I guess.
Mr. Carr. What is the license plates on the car?
Mr. Jones. I think it is 296, I am not sure.
Mr. Carr. What number do you think it is?
Mr. Jones. 296, I think.
Mr. Carr. MS296?
Mr. Jones. MS, I know.
Mr. Carr. Are you married?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Carr. What does your car look like?
Mr. Jones. Blue. I guess it is called--blue anyway.
Mr. Carr. Let me ask you this. Were you working in July of
1953 or were you on leave?
Mr. Jones. This past summer, I took my vacation in August.
Mr. Carr. Then you probably were working?
Mr. Jones. Probably. I took every Thursday and Friday in
August. That is how I took my vacation.
Mr. Carr. What are your regular working hours?
Mr. Jones. Well, regular hours are from eight to a quarter
of five. We had them changed a while in August from 7:30 to a
quarter after four and a half hour lunch.
Mr. Carr. Do you recall on August 8, 1953, driving your
car, at approximately five o'clock in the evening, and stopping
where you met another car; you met a young woman; getting out
and exchanging packages?
Mr. Jones. It could be my wife. She had the use of my
father-in-law's car. She stays there in the summer.
Mr. Carr. What is your father-in-law's name?
Mr. Jones. Graham, but I don't ever remember. She was
usually down at the beach with the kids, I mean.
Mr. Carr. Is your wife a blond?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Carr. On July 8th of this past summer, you, or someone
driving your car--the description fits you--drove your car to
the intersection of Rosen Avenue and Monmouth Drive in Deal,
New Jersey. You were met by another car, license number I have,
who stopped your car, opened the utilities base in the rear of
the car; the other car stopped; a young woman got out and you
transferred briefcases.
Mr. Jones. No, not me.
Mr. Carr. Do you have a brother who drives your car?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. Does anybody else have access to your car?
Mr. Jones. No, I always had the car.
Mr. Carr. Any other driver of your car other than your
wife?
Mr. Jones. She is the only one.
Mr. Carr. You don't loan your car to anyone?
Mr. Jones. Occasionally.
Mr. Carr. Your license number is MS296?
Mr. Jones. MS296 or 293. 296 I am pretty sure.
Mr. Carr. In July did you have a white Ford, 1950 Ford.
Mr. Jones. Light grey.
Mr. Carr. What was the make of it?
Mr. Jones. Ford, 1950, two door.
Mr. Carr. Did it look like a Ford or was it whittled down
or supped up or anything?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. This is your car all right. You have no
explanation for it. You say it couldn't possibly have been you?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Cohn. Who else could it have been?
Mr. Jones. That I wouldn't know.
Mr. Cohn. To whom have you loaned your car?
Mr. Jones. No one. That is it.
Mr. Cohn. On July 8, 1953, apparently just at the time you
finished work--did you drive your car to work?
Mr. Jones. Sure, every day.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever lend it to a fellow employee?
Mr. Jones. [The witness shook his head negatively.]
Mr. Carr. Does your car have a Fort Monmouth identification
tag?
Mr. Jones. Certainly.
Mr. Carr. You don't know a man by the name of George Good?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. You have never heard of him?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. What was your old car before you got the new one?
Was that a 1950 Ford?
Mr. Jones. Yes.
Mr. Carr. A white one?
Mr. Jones. Yes. The only one I ever picked up with a
briefcase was my father-in-law from the train and that is at
the station at Allenhurst.
Mr. Carr. This is not picking up. This is just transferring
from one car to another.
Mr. Jones. I don't know.
Mr. Carr. There was a young man driving the other car and a
young woman got out and made the transfer.
Mr. Jones. It doesn't even ring a bell.
Mr. Carr. Okay, we will have to let it go for now. We will
talk to you again. We will let you know when to come back.
Thank you.
[Whereupon the hearing adjourned.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--None of the witnesses at this staff
interrogatory, Edward Brody, Max Katz, Henry Jasik, Capt.
Benjamin Sheehan, Russell Gaylord Ranney (1911-1987), Susan
Moon, Peter Rosmovsky, and Sarah Omanson, testified at a public
hearing.]
----------
TUESDAY, OCTOBER 27, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: G. David Schine, chief consultant; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr, staff director; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel; James Juliana, investigator.
Present also: Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton, commandant, Fort
Monmouth; Lt. Richardson McKinney.
STATEMENT OF EDWARD BRODY (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, IRA J.
KATCHEN)
Mr. Schine. Would you give your name for the record?
Mr. Brody. Edward Brody.
Mr. Schine. And will counsel give his name?
Mr. Katchen. Ira J. Katchen, 156 Broadway, Long Branch, New
Jersey.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed, Mr. Brody?
Mr. Brody. At present I am unemployed.
Mr. Schine. Were you employed by the government?
Mr. Brody. That is right.
Mr. Schine. State the circumstances of your employment.
Mr. Brody. I worked at Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What year to what year?
Mr. Brody. May 1951 to October 1953.
Mr. Schine. What was the reason for your departure?
Mr. Brody. I haven't been informed yet.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mr. Brody. Belmont, New Jersey most of the time.
Mr. Cohn. What is the exact address?
Mr. Brody. I have had quite a few. The last one is 603 10th
Avenue.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever live on Eaton Terrace?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know another man by the name of
Brody who worked at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. There may be. I don't recall. I never met him.
Mr. Schine. During your work at Fort Monmouth what were
your duties?
Mr. Brody. Physicist.
Mr. Schine. And you were cleared for classified work?
Mr. Brody. That is right.
Mr. Schine. You had access to classified work?
Mr. Brody. That is right.
Mr. Schine. What were you exact duties?
Mr. Brody. In the last two years, research group, south
state physics. That work there was not classified.
Mr. Schine. And you say you have not been informed of the
circumstances of your suspension?
Mr. Brody. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. Were you suspended or dismissed?
Mr. Brody. Suspended.
Mr. Schine. Are you still on the payroll?
Mr. Brody. I am on leave without pay, I believe.
Mr. Schine. Have you been able to think of any reason why
Fort Monmouth would suspend you?
Mr. Brody. Possibly.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about the reason?
Mr. Brody. At school I belonged to the American Veterans
Committee. I registered ALP on occasions.
Mr. Cohn. What years?
Mr. Brody. 1947 and 1950.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that ALP was under Communist
domination at that time?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't know that?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you read the newspapers?
Mr. Brody. I read a few.
Mr. Cohn. Haven't you read the fact that ALP was very
plainly under Communist domination at that time?
Mr. Brody. Some of the papers claimed that. Others didn't.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Brody, what are the other reasons you
thought were the causes for your suspension from Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. I believe they made some mention of my brother's
activities. They didn't like the fact he registered ALP.
Mr. Schine. Is your brother ``Seymour''?
Mr. Brody. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Where does he live?
Mr. Brody. Manhattan.
Mr. Schine. What is the address?
Mr. Brody. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. What does he do?
Mr. Brody. He works as a waiter here in the city.
Mr. Schine. Has he ever worked for the government?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell the other reasons that you have
in mind that were cause for your dismissal?
Mr. Brody. That is all.
Mr. Schine. Have you belonged to some organizations which
you feel were subversive?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. You feel you never belonged to organizations
which were subversive. Will you tell us what organizations you
belonged to?
Mr. Brody. I belonged to the American Veterans Committee at
Brooklyn College, the school chapter. It started out as an
independent veterans group and, I think, after it had been
organized approximately a year and a half or two, it was
affiliated with the American Veterans Committee.
Mr. Schine. What other organization?
Mr. Brody. That is the only organization I was a member of
except the Physics Society in school and that was non-
political.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to any other front
organizations?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever live in Brooklyn?
Mr. Brody. That is where I lived most of my life.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever belong to the Neptune Branch of
the Communist party?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. Has your wife been connected with some----
Mr. Brody. I am not married.
Mr. Schine. You say you know of no other Brody employed at
Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. I have heard of another Brody. This was in
connection with some equipment and they thought I was somebody
else. I don't know where he works or what he does. I have never
met him.
Mr. Schine. Have you heard that that Brody is a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Brody. I don't know anything about him.
Mr. Schine. Any relatives of yours working for the
government?
Mr. Brody. Not my immediate family.
Mr. Schine. Any cousins, aunts----
Mr. Brody. My kid brother is in the air force.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever live at 17 Eaton Place?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You were never married? Correct?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. Where did you get your college training?
Mr. Brody. Brooklyn College.
Mr. Schine. Have you known any members of the Communist
party?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. You have never been acquainted with any of
them, talked with any of them?
Mr. Brody. Not to my knowledge--that they were members of
the party.
Mr. Schine. Is there any information that you would care to
give the committee that you feel would be of value to us?
Mr. Brody. In my family there are four males. All four
served the government in service, three of us in the last war,
approximately nine years of service, five overseas. My younger
brother is still in the air force, just got back from Korea. He
was there approximately a year. My older brother was with the
marines three and a half years, two and a half in the Pacific.
Mr. Cohn. Which brother registered in the American Labor
party?
Mr. Brody. Seymour.
Mr. Cohn. When was the last year of his registration?
Mr. Brody. Approximately the same time as mine.
Mr. Cohn. It is inconceivable to me that you didn't know
the ALP was under Communist domination. If you remember in 1943
it broke up and the liberal party broke away, formed an anti-
Communist segment. From then on it has been a Communist outfit
and officially listed as such, very widely publicized.
Where did you see any statement that the ALP was not under
Communist domination?
Mr. Brody. I am not a member of the Communist party so I
will have to presume. Some of the papers violently stated that
it was and others didn't make mention of it.
Mr. Cohn. Did it disturb you when it was alleged that it
was?
Mr. Brody. I thought about it but not to the point I got
excited.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing in 1950?
Mr. Brody. I graduated from school at that time.
Mr. Cohn. When did you start working for the government?
Mr. Brody. I started in 1951.
Mr. Cohn. You did not register in ALP in 1951?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You say it did not disturb you enough to do
anything about it in 1950 when you heard it was under Communist
domination?
Mr. Brody. I thought it might have been but I wasn't
convinced at the time.
Mr. Cohn. Prior to your suspension from Fort Monmouth you
were questioned, weren't you?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Cohn. You were never questioned?
Mr. Brody. No, I received an interrogatory--written.
Mr. Cohn. You filled that out and it was after that they
suspended you?
Mr. Brody. No, that was in May approximately I sent back
the interrogatory.
Mr. Schine. You have never been questioned or asked to
appear at a hearing or anything of that sort?
Mr. Brody. No.
Mr. Schine. What have you been doing since you left Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Brody. It has only been two weeks. I haven't been doing
anything.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much for coming. If we need you
again we will get in touch with you.
Mr. Cohn. Did he give you his address where he can be
reached now?
Mr. Brody. 2363 18th Street, Brooklyn, New York.
STATEMENT OF MAX KATZ
Mr. Schine. Will you give us your name for the record?
Mr. Katz. My name is Max Katz.
Mr. Schine. Are you connected with Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Katz. I work there.
Mr. Schine. What is your job at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Katz. I am a chemist.
Mr. Schine. And your duties as such?
Mr. Katz. I work in the field of surface chemistry measure
of powdered material.
Mr. Schine. You are cleared for classified work?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Schine. And you have access to classified material?
Mr. Katz. I very rarely see classified information although
I am cleared.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Katz. City College.
Mr. Schine. When you were at City College did you know
Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Katz. No. The only time I knew he went to City College
was when I read it in the newspapers recently.
Mr. Schine. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. When did you leave City College?
Mr. Katz. 1941.
Mr. Schine. You have belonged to a number of organizations
in the past years. Would you give us the names of those
organizations? We'd like to know the names of the organizations
and when you joined them?
Mr. Katz. Well, the only organization I can recall is the
American Veterans' Committee. I don't remember the date but
probably 1946 or 1947.
Mr. Schine. What were the circumstances under which you
joined the American Veterans Committee?
Mr. Katz. Well, I don't recall exactly except I had heard
that there was such an organization. I went down to some of the
meetings.
Mr. Schine. You were a member of some other organizations,
weren't you?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to any other organizations?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. You never belonged to an organization listed as
a front organization by the attorney general?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Or any front organization?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did you know the American Veterans Committee
was Communist dominated?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Which chapter did you belong to?
Mr. Katz. Monmouth County chapter.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the time Barry Bernstein was the
chairman?
Mr. Katz. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't the Communists get control of that chapter
and wasn't it dissolved?
Mr. Katz. Not to my knowledge. It folded up.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present when a vote was taken up as to
whether or not Communists should be barred?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. How did you vote?
Mr. Katz. I voted not to bar them.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't that a pretty straight vote along
Communist lines?
Mr. Katz. No, I don't think that. I felt that it was better
to stand up and be counted rather than to have them dig under
without being aware of them.
That was the reason for my vote. There were about two
people out of a total membership of better than two hundred who
admitted to being Communist.
Mr. Cohn. Was one of them Bennett Davis?
Mr. Katz. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Albert Saltz?
Mr. Katz. The name sounds familiar.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know Bernstein?
Mr. Katz. Casually. I have met him in the laboratories
occasionally.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have any discussions with him about
politics?
Mr. Katz. Not about politics. We happen to belong to a book
club, the Great Books Club.
Mr. Cohn. That is another organization. Where did that
meet?
Mr. Katz. I think that was in the Long Branch YMCA.
Mr. Cohn. Now, during those discussions did you discuss
such documents as the Communist Manifesto?
Mr. Katz. No, we never discussed that.
Mr. Cohn. Well, it was discussed there. Maybe you weren't
present at the meeting.
Mr. Katz. I don't recall it.
Mr. Cohn. How about Civil Disobedience?
Mr. Katz. I don't recall any such.
Mr. Cohn. From your observation of Bernstein tell us
whether or not you think he is a Communist?
Mr. Katz. To my knowledge he is not a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear him say anything which would
indicate that he was against Communism?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What?
Mr. Katz. I can't recall any specific comment but my
impression is he is a liberal Democrat. I don't know, but I
imagine he probably liked the ADA, groups of that kind.
Mr. Cohn. Now, do you know whether or not he believed in
our form of government?
Mr. Katz. I would believe that he did.
Mr. Cohn. You believe but you don't have any way of
knowing. Have you ever seen a pamphlet entitled ``Brass Hat and
the Atom''?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you called as a witness in the Bernstein
loyalty board proceeding?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ask you for an affidavit?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work in the same section as Bernstein?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know William Saltzman?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. William Johnston Jones?
Mr. Katz. Jones I believe was a member of the American
Veterans Committee.
Mr. Cohn. How did he vote on the issue of barring
Communists?
Mr. Katz. I don't recall.
Mr. Schine. You stated that only two of the two hundred
members were known to be Communist and you can't remember their
names?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. Could you find out their names?
Mr. Katz. I have had no connection with the group or with
anyone in the group in years.
Mr. Schine. When were you in the group?
Mr. Katz. 1946.
Mr. Schine. Nobody you knew in 1946 might be familiar with
these names?
Mr. Katz. Well, I suppose Bernstein would know them.
Mr. Schine. What were the names of the other individuals
who belonged to the Great Books Club?
Mr. Katz. I don't remember--Mrs. Banister who was a nurse.
I don't remember too many. I don't remember the names of the
members. It has been quite a while ago.
Mr. Schine. You went to a number of these meetings, didn't
you? Is there any way you could find out?
Mr. Katz. I remember another name. There was Maurice
Distell.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Katz. Maurice Distell. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Was he employed by the government?
Mr. Katz. Yes.
Mr. Schine. What job?
Mr. Katz. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. You don't know in what capacity?
Mr. Katz. I believe he is at Camp Evans with the Applied
Physics Branch.
Mr. Schine. Do you know him well?
Mr. Katz. Casually.
Mr. Schine. Are you still a member of the Great Books Club?
Mr. Katz. I don't think it is still functioning. I don't
think it has been functioning for years.
Mr. Schine. Was he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Katz. I don't know any members of the Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know a Communist?
Mr. Katz. Other than the two people in the American
Veterans Committee. I didn't know them. I know we had two
members who admitted they were. Maybe more, I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of these individuals express sympathy for
the Communist form of government?
Mr. Katz. The individuals mentioned? No.
Mr. Cohn. Could you think of any names of Communist at all?
Mr. Katz. I don't think I know any Communists.
Mr. Schine. Do any other members of your family work for
the government?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. Have they worked for the government?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. Has any member of your family belonged to any
subversive organizations?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You still have access to classified material?
Mr. Katz. Yes. In other words, as I said, my duties have
rarely involved contact with classified material.
Mr. Cohn. Is Barry Bernstein a close friend of yours?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last talk to him?
Mr. Katz. It happens by coincidence that I saw him a few
days ago. I was up there in connection with some work and I ran
into him quite by accident.
Mr. Cohn. What was the nature of your conversation?
Mr. Katz. Very general. I don't recall that we discussed--
--
Mr. Cohn. What did he say he is doing now?
Mr. Katz. He didn't say anything about what he is doing. We
didn't discuss his work.
Mr. Cohn. Did he talk about these hearings?
Mr. Katz. No.
Mr. Schine. What do you think of the American Legion?
Mr. Katz. I don't think much of the American Legion. From a
political standpoint it is possibly a little right of the way I
would think. I think it is a little bit on the conservative
side.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been out of this country?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. You have never traveled away from the United
States?
Mr. Katz. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. What do you think of the Literary Digest?
Mr. Katz. I am not familiar with the Literary Digest.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much, Mr. Katz. If we need you
we will get in touch with you. We appreciate your coming down.
STATEMENT OF HENRY JASIK
Mr. Schine. Would you give your name for the record?
Mr. Jasik. Henry Jasik.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed?
Mr. Jasik. I am self-employed, private consultant.
Mr. Schine. What do you do as a consultant?
Mr. Jasik. Study work, development work in the electronics
field.
Mr. Schine. Have you had any connection with the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, sir. I have worked for it and I have been a
member of the navy. I worked for the Civil Aeronautics
Administration and spent a year with the Bureau of Ordnance.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever with the Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever done any consultant work for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Indirectly as a subcontractor.
Mr. Schine. What is the name of your firm?
Mr. Jasik. Henry Jasik Consulting Engineer.
Mr. Schine. What is your wife's name?
Mr. Jasik. Esther A. Her maiden name was Gershon.
Mr. Schine. Is she a sister of Simon Gershon?
Mr. Jasik. I believe his name is spelled without the ``H.''
Mr. Schine. She is a sister?
Mr. Jasik. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been married?
Mr. Jasik. Since 1941. Over twelve years.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you saw your brother-in-
law?
Mr. Jasik. Sometime back in 1950 at a family reception.
That is my wife's family.
Mr. Schine. Are any other of your in-laws members of the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. I have no knowledge of such. Now, they may very
well be. I know definitely Sy is, having read about it in the
newspapers.
Mr. Schine. Is your wife in contact with him more than you
are?
Mr. Jasik. She possibly visits there once every six months
or so, very infrequent intervals. She takes the children there
to visit with their children. The last time she went there he
wasn't around.
Mr. Schine. Did she ever discuss his Communist party
activities with you?
Mr. Jasik. Well, obviously I can read the papers.
Mr. Schine. Would you like to tell us whatever you can that
would help in the problem of subversion and espionage?
Mr. Jasik. Well, she told me, I remember, back in the early
forties that he had been stationed at Albany as a political
correspondent for the Communist newspaper and after the war my
recollection is that he ran for office. I am not sure what
office it was, some public office in the City of New York, and
she has spoken of his current activities.
Mr. Schine. Where is he now?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Is he still in Albany?
Mr. Jasik. I have not had contact with that part of the
family actually prior to 1940. In my total married life I might
have seen him a half dozen times. I don't agree with his
political philosophy although he seems to have a nice
personality. I am afraid that is about as far as it goes.
Mr. Cohn. A Communist can be very charming.
Mr. Jasik. I know very few.
Mr. Schine. Is your wife in disagreement with her brother?
I am referring to his Communist party views. Is your wife in
agreement with his Communist party activities and views?
Mr. Jasik. Well, if she is in agreement she never tried to
convince me of it.
Mr. Schine. Has she ever denied that she was in agreement
with him?
Mr. Jasik. Has she ever denied that she was in agreement?
Mr. Schine. I will rephrase the question. Has she ever said
she isn't in agreement with him?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't remember.
Mr. Cohn. Now look. Here is a man whose wife is the sister
of one of the top Communists in the country. A man who has been
the subject of public controversy for the past fifteen years,
as you know very well; was one of the second string Communist
leaders recently indicted and tried here in federal court and
it is inconceivable, unreasonable, that there wouldn't be
frequent discussions between Mr. and Mrs. Jasik on the question
of whether or not they were in agreement or disagreement with
him. He was one of the top leaders in the Communist party. We
certainly don't want any views of hers except so far as it goes
into other things we want to cover later. You would have to go
a long way to convince me that this hasn't been a source of
frequent discussions, Mr. Jasik.
Mr. Jasik. We seldom discuss politics at home. I will be
very frank.
Mr. Cohn. The question was: Has your wife been in
disagreement with her brother's Communist activities or views?
Mr. Jasik. From my discussions with her, I don't think she
is in agreement with his views.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever indicated outright that she is in
disagreement?
Mr. Jasik. Not directly.
Mr. Cohn. She knows he is a top Communist?
Mr. Jasik. I think that is obvious from reading the
newspapers.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Jasik, you have done some work for a
consulting firm, subcontractor for the government?
Mr. Jasik. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Would you tell us what work you have done for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Indirectly?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Jasik. I don't know whether some of it is of a
classified nature. I can give it to you generally. I have done
one bit of consulting work for Dorne and Margolin.
Mr. Cohn. What were they doing?
Mr. Jasik. They are a much larger firm of engineers also
doing antenna work located at Westbury.
Mr. Cohn. What branch of the government?
Mr. Jasik. Bureau of Aeronautics.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, your firm, Henry Jasik Consulting
Firm has acted as subcontractor for a larger firm who has done
work for the Aeronautics Bureau?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. I have also done other work for the
government.
Mr. Cohn. Will you name the various branch of the
government for which you have done work?
Mr. Jasik. Bureau of Aeronautics; navy; I have done work
recently for the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. Will you tell us about that work?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. This was done as a sub-contract for the
Smith Company and they came to me back last June or July. No, I
guess it was May or June and they stated they had been directed
to obtain a consultant to carry out the development and
production contract. They had been referred to me, I think, by
the organization by which I was formerly employed, and I wasn't
quite so sure as to whether I could take it on and do any good.
They pressed me on it and as a result we went down to, I
believe, the Watson area of the Signal Corps to discuss my
qualifications with the Signal Corps.
Now, after we got the contract, they turned over a
development portion of the job--apparently the work which had
been carried out by the Signal Corps was incomplete before it
was let out for production.
Mr. Cohn. What was the nature of the work you did for the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. What do you mean by nature?
Mr. Cohn. Was it classified?
Mr. Jasik. Restricted, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did they take any steps to clear you for access
to restricted material?
Mr. Jasik. Well, the initial clearance which they checked
was with the Bureau of Aeronautics in Bethpage, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Did the Bureau of Aeronautics take any steps to
clear you for classified material?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, yes. When I first left Airborne Instruments
Laboratory in 1952 I got in touch with the Bureau of
Aeronautics and asked them if I could set up as a facility. I,
at that time, signed a security agreement.
Mr. Cohn. I'd like to rephrase the question. We haven't got
too much time. Were you ever investigated?
Mr. Jasik. Many times.
Mr. Cohn. By whom?
Mr. Jasik. By the FBI among others.
Mr. Cohn. Did you receive security clearance from the
Bureau of Aeronautics?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. Secret at the time I left Airborne
Instruments. I have been told up in Boston I had top secret
clearance.
Mr. Cohn. After being investigated by the FBI?
Mr. Jasik. After being investigated by the FBI? No, Well, I
maintain--Let me see. Well, what do you mean being investigated
by the FBI? I assume to get initial clearance in 1946, or for
that matter 1944 when I went on active duty as an officer of
the navy that at that time I was cleared.
Mr. Cohn. Now, are you currently doing work for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Jasik. I am. Well, I was until my clearance was stopped
as of last week.
Mr. Cohn. Did they tell you why your clearance was stopped?
Mr. Jasik. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Did you receive a suspension on your security
clearance or was it taken away?
Mr. Jasik. By the Bethpage representative in New York.
Mr. Schine. Did this automatically lift your clearance or
suspend your clearance for the work you are doing for the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I am not quite sure. I got the thing
recently enough that I have not had a legal interpretation. For
one thing it is a contractual agreement and the question is: Do
I stop immediately doing work I already know about.
Mr. Schine. What other government agencies are you doing
work for at this time besides the Signal Corps and the Bureau
of Aeronautics?
Mr. Jasik. I am no longer doing work for the Bureau of
Aeronautics.
Mr. Schine. What other agencies?
Mr. Jasik. I had been doing work for the Bureau of Ships,
Navy Department.
Mr. Schine. Are you still doing that?
Mr. Jasik. I advised these people just as soon as I got
notice, ``Here is the state of affairs. What would you like me
to do?''
Mr. Schine. Did you notify the Signal Corps too?
Mr. Jasik. Not as yet.
Mr. Schine. What other government outfits are you doing
work for?
Mr. Jasik. These are the only two organizations.
Mr. Schine. The Bureau of Ships and the Signal Corps.
Mr. Jasik. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Jasik, has your wife ever been a member of
the Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. If she has, it was certainly prior to the time I
married her. When I have asked her she has not given me a
direct answer.
Mr. Schine. She never denied that she was a member?
Mr. Jasik. She put it in such an ambiguous way that I am
not certain.
Mr. Schine. Did she ever tell you that she left the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. Well, the way I gather is that she attended a
number of meetings. That was prior to my having met her.
Mr. Schine. Did she tell you anything about these meetings?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. In other words, your wife told you she attended
Communist party meetings but she didn't tell you anything about
them?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Nor who was there?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. And she never told you she left the Communist
party?
Mr. Jasik. In trying to elicit a more direct response from
her, her contention is that she merely attended these meetings
and that ``What constitutes membership''?
Mr. Schine. Did she attend meetings with her brother?
Mr. Jasik. This I don't know. That was before I met her.
Mr. Schine. In the past ten years?
Mr. Jasik. Not in the past ten years. We have been married
since 1941, twelve years ago. At the time we got married I
worked for CAA, unclassified, on Air Navigational Aid and we
moved to Indianapolis. We moved back and forth so much had she
engaged in outside activities I would have known about it. As a
matter of fact, I would have been very definitely against it.
Mr. Schine. What is your personal feeling about the
situation? Do you think your wife is still a Communist party
member?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think she is.
Mr. Cohn. Is she still in sympathy with Communists?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think she is.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been in sympathy with communism?
Mr. Jasik. I have looked into what they have to say but I
have never agreed with them since my upbringing and philosophy
of life is completely at variance.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever tell anybody that you believed in
the results which the Communists sought to achieve but you
didn't like the way in which they were going about it?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think I ever have.
Mr. Schine. Are you sure that you never did?
Mr. Jasik. Well, would you be more specific as to what
results they are trying to achieve.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever expressed sympathy for Communist
objectives?
Mr. Jasik. Specify objectives.
Mr. Schine. I will rephrase the question. Have you ever
professed a sympathy toward what you believe to be Communist
objectives?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I am not quite certain what the
Communist objectives are since they have changed so many times
and I have more or less lost interest as a subject as early as
1940.
Mr. Schine. When you were interested in the Communist
philosophy isn't it true that you felt that there were virtues
to some of the Communist objectives and so stated?
Mr. Jasik. Well, let me state it this way. Insofar as the
Communist objectives are in common with those of the democracy
of the United States, I am afraid I have to be in agreement
with them. You must remember that in a good many cases they
claim to be for liberty, for democracy, and for all the things
that our philosophy of the United States, the United States
philosophy, so that I don't want to be picayune but I want to
get your phrasing a little clearer. If you are asking me if I
believe in the overthrow of this government violently, I do not
believe that.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever at one time openly say that you were
sympathetic with--what amounts to sympathy towards the
Communist objectives? I exclude force and violence. Was there
ever a period in your life when you were sympathetic towards
communism?
Mr. Jasik. That is a hard question to answer. Sympathetic
in the sense that we were both fighting to defeat the Germans
during the last war, yes. Very definitely.
Mr. Cohn. Let's go back to the time when you were with the
Bureau of Ordnance. Were you in sympathy with communism then?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in sympathy before that?
Mr. Jasik. No. As a matter of fact, I never heard of it
until I came down to Washington on a Civil Service job. I had
been brought up in a small town in New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever work with a man named Benjamin
Zuckerman?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Would you say he was sympathetic towards
communism?
Mr. Jasik. Judging from some of the arguments he had with
some of the other people, I would say he was not.
Mr. Cohn. With whom did he have arguments?
Mr. Jasik. With some of the various members of the group
there, one of whom you of course know, Morton Sobell.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, sir. I did.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you know Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, not as well as I knew Zuckerman. I met him
on a number of occasions and I lost contact with him in 1942 or
1943, something of that sort, possibly even earlier and I did
not see him again until 1949.
Mr. Cohn. Who are some of the other individuals you put in
Sobell's class?
Mr. Jasik. I don't know what you mean class.
Mr. Cohn. The group that lived together. Who were they? Max
Elitcher? Do you know Mr. Elitcher?
Mr. Jasik. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember him as sympathetic towards
communism?
Mr. Jasik. He spoke so very little it was hard to tell, but
I would gather from his close association with Sobell he
probably was.
Mr. Cohn. Zuckerman had a closer association with Sobell,
did he not?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, but he voiced his opposition openly.
Mr. Cohn. Did Zuckerman disagree with the substance or
form?
Mr. Jasik. I am afraid I am not a lawyer.
Mr. Cohn. I will phrase it in a little plainer language.
Did he object to the whole idea of communism or certain
methods, the way in which they are trying to do things?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think you can divorce them.
Mr. Schine. Would you continue to give us the names of the
individuals who lived with Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. Stanley Rich, who, as I recall, was violently in
disagreement with Sobell personally as well as politically.
Mr. Cohn. How about Mr. Danziger? William Danziger?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, Bill. There may have been some others. Mr.
Rich's wife lived there, I believe. Sobell's wife.
Mr. Schine. Were you ever present when they held Communist
meetings?
Mr. Jasik. I was not aware they held Communist meetings at
that house.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present at any dinners?
Mr. Jasik. I was present at one or two dinners.
Mr. Cohn. Who else were at those dinners? Were there any
other Communists present besides Rich, Sobell, Danziger,
Elitcher and yourself?
Mr. Jasik. Please do not put me in the same category. I
attended several times at their invitation.
Mr. Cohn. Did anybody else attend?
Mr. Jasik. Mrs. Danziger. I think she was there also. Now,
there are some other people that I frankly can't remember. This
goes back fourteen or fifteen years.
Mr. Cohn. Who first tried to get you interested in the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. I would say probably Mr. Sobell.
Mr. Schine. When did he first make overtures to you?
Mr. Jasik. Possibly as a result of having met me at the
Bureau of Ordnance.
Mr. Schine. When did he first make overtures to you?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, it was probably in 1938 or 1949.
Mr. Schine. Did you know you were being sized up?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I was nineteen years old at the time
and a little naive. They handed me a number of pamphlets and
propaganda. I generally argued with them about it and I think
that was as far as it went.
Mr. Schine. Who besides Sobell handed you this material and
made overtures to you?
Mr. Jasik. I would say Danziger made some mild attempts at
it. Actually, he didn't get very far. I might tell you the
attitude they had towards me. I had a strictly bourgeois
outlook on life, as phrased by Mr. Sobell, and while I did go
so far as to read what they had to say, I certainly didn't
subscribe to it. I might say that I find nothing wrong in that.
Anyone with any amount of intellectual curiosity would want to
decide for himself.
Mr. Schine. When did you first meet your wife?
Mr. Jasik. It was sometime in 1940, I believe
Mr. Schine. Did her brother know this same group of people?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Did your wife?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, I think so. I am trying to remember. I
believe she may have gone to school with Mrs. Danziger.
Mr. Schine. What was the name of the school?
Mr. Jasik. Hunter College.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Mrs. Danziger was a member of the
Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. No, in the sense I never did see any direct
evidence. It might have possibly been true judging from her
reaction towards some of the issues in the news.
Mr. Schine. Now, wouldn't you say your wife was more or
less in agreement with Mrs. Danziger on these issues?
Mr. Jasik. Well, the general attitude of my wife was, she
was out to have a good time and enjoy life and such politics as
she might have been interested in were forced on her by her
associations and her family.
Mr. Schine. Did she tell you Mrs. Danziger was a member of
the Communist party? By her family, you mean her brother?
Mr. Jasik. Her brother, perhaps, possibly her mother,
although I guess more directly she was influenced by her
brother.
Mr. Schine. Was her mother a member of the party?
Mr. Jasik. I have no knowledge of that.
Mr. Schine. Do you think she might be?
Mr. Jasik. I suspect she was probably more in sympathy with
some of the objectives but she is well along in years. She is
about seventy-five or eighty now.
Mr. Schine. When did you last see your mother-in-law?
Mr. Jasik. Some several months ago.
Mr. Schine. Was she born in the United States?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Where was she born?
Mr. Jasik. Poland.
Mr. Schine. When did she come to this country?
Mr. Jasik. That I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Was your wife born in the United States?
Mr. Jasik. So far as I know, yes.
Mr. Schine. Now, getting back to this association of yours
with Sobell and that group, can you give us any more names
before you go on--individuals in that group?
Mr. Jasik. I am trying to refresh my memory. I went through
all this some months ago for the Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. Schine. Which bureau?
Mr. Jasik. The Federal Bureau of Investigation. At which
time I spent close to eight hours with them. There may be other
names but frankly it would take a little more time. Actually,
they were able to refresh my memory by furnishing direct leads.
Mr. Schine. Did it ever occur to you you may have been used
by the Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. How would I have been used?
Mr. Schine. I am asking you a question. Did it ever occur
to you that you may have been used by the Communist party?
Mr. Jasik. I have never given them any information. I have
never given them any money.
Mr. Schine. Can't you think of any way they might have used
you or your company?
Mr. Jasik. Well, in the little over a year that I have been
trying to get started in business, I don't think I have had any
contact with anyone that I know or might suspect of being a
member of the Communist party.
Mr. Schine. What about prior to your starting your own
company? Did it ever occur to you they might have used you?
Mr. Jasik. Well, yes. This was something that happened to
me in 1949 or 1950 and here again I have given the actual story
on this to the FBI. I bumped into Sobell quite accidently in
one of the shopping markets where I live in Flushing.
Mr. Schine. That was in 1949?
Mr. Jasik. Yes, it was in 1949. I returned to the New York
area in 1949.
Mr. Schine. Approximately when in 1949?
Mr. Jasik. Here again--it would be sometime around the
middle if I am not mistaken. At that time he told me that he
was working at Reeves Instrument Company and I must say that
his personality had changed somewhat from the time I knew him
in Washington. When I knew him in Washington he was very much
of a bore and he had improved somewhat. Now, I didn't know
whether it was due to being married or what but he also did not
express the same political views or at least if he had
political views, he didn't express them to me at that time. At
one time he met my wife in the Food Fair and took her bundle
home.
Well, this was some reason for being polite to him and I
saw him a total of possibly two or three times over a period of
a year. At one time he told me he was unhappy in his job at
Reeves and wanted to know if I could get him on at Airborne
Instruments Laboratory. Well, he, as I say, his personality
left much to be desired. I let a little time elapse and told
him they were not taking on people at the time and it dropped
at that point. If he were trying to use me in order to get in
on that end, this may have been a possibility. As it happened I
did not recommend him and it went no further.
Mr. Schine. Did you live with Sobell?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. In the same area?
Mr. Jasik. I lived several miles from him in Washington. I
can't remember what the house number was. It was somewheres, I
think, in the end of the second alphabet or something in that
general area of Washington.
Mr. Schine. You knew he was a Communist in 1949?
Mr. Jasik. In 1949, no. I thought perhaps he might have
changed.
Mr. Schine. You thought he had left the party by 1949?
Mr. Jasik. As I say, when I bumped into him his actions did
not indicate that he had any sympathy towards communism.
Mr. Schine. So when you say his personality had changed----
Mr. Jasik. He treated me no differently than I am sure he
treated all the people he worked with.
Mr. Schine. You knew he had been a Communist prior to that?
Mr. Jasik. This, again, I am not sure of. I knew his views
were sympathetic.
Mr. Schine. Now, if he asked you to get him a job for the
government----
Mr. Jasik. It probably would have been a factor.
Mr. Schine. If he had asked you to get him a job in the
government and you knew he had been a Communist----
Mr. Jasik. This was not a job with the government. It was a
private laboratory.
Mr. Schine. Was it doing work for the government?
Mr. Jasik. Yes. He told me he was already doing work for
the government at Reeves. Assuming their clearance procedures
were thorough, the only conclusion I could draw was that he was
not a Communist, otherwise he would not have been working for
them.
Mr. Schine. What does your wife do?
Mr. Jasik. She takes care of our two children Stephen, ten
and Harriet, seven. At least they will be in two months. She
takes care of our house.
Because of her past associations, I have never allowed her
to do anything in connection with my business. As a matter of
fact, while we have a joint personal checking account, I am the
only one who can sign signatures on the business account.
Mr. Schine. In other words, you feel that because of her
associations with Communists, you wouldn't want her to be
involved in your business in any way?
Mr. Jasik. Because of what remote association there may
have been. Because of what association there may have been, I
certainly would not clear her to work in my organization. Even
though there are times I could have used somebody to answer
telephones or do typing.
Mr. Schine. Who else works for you?
Mr. Jasik. One young man and Mr. Milton Brenner.
Mr. Schine. What about him?
Mr. Jasik. He worked for the Airborne Instruments
Laboratory from 1951 to 1952 and at the time I left to set up
my own business he left to finish up his master's degree at the
New York University. When he got through I offered him a
position.
Mr. Schine. Was he connected with this group in any way?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Has he ever been a member of any subversive
organization?
Mr. Jasik. So far as I know, no.
Mr. Schine. Have you?
Mr. Jasik. No, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever join any organizations listed as
subversive by the attorney general?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think the Institute of Radio Engineering
is listed as subversive and the only organizations are
professional organizations or in one case an honorary society.
Mr. Schine. You never joined any front organizations?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Let the record show that the witness appeared
voluntarily.
Mr. Jasik. I am at your disposal as long as you need me,
any time you wish.
Mr. Schine. There is one other question I would like to ask
you. Can you give us the names of any people who have expressed
a sympathy for communism who are currently working for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. No, sir. I frankly can't. Actually, I can't
imagine of anybody who wanted to keep their job making such an
expression.
Mr. Schine. Let's put it this way. Taking this whole crowd
around Sobell, do any of them currently work for the
government? Directly or subcontractors, either way?
Mr. Jasik. Well, I believe Mr. Rich does.
Mr. Schine. You said he was against communism.
Mr. Jasik. He expressed very strong opinions against it.
Mr. Schine. For the record, what does he do for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't know. All he mentioned was that
he had done some work for them off and on.
Mr. Schine. What about some of the other individuals in
this group?
Mr. Jasik. So far as I know, Mr. Zuckerman is not working
with the government and as far as some of the other people are
concerned, I have had no contact with them with the one
exception of Sobell who I bumped into in 1949 and 1950.
Mr. Schine. Have you heard or did you hear that any of
these other individuals were employed by the government?
Mr. Jasik. No. Zuckerman was at one time.
Mr. Schine. Zuckerman and Sobell. Anybody else?
Mr. Jasik. As I say, Rich was or had been doing some work
for them.
Mr. Schine. How about friends of your wife that you know
were sympathetic towards communism. Have you heard that any of
them are working for the government or have worked for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. I don't know of any friends of my wife--any
friends she had before we were married and in the last several
years, I believe, the main friends are those who are local
neighbors. So far as I know, none of them are working for the
government.
Mr. Schine. What part of the Signal Corps does your firm
sub-contract for?
Mr. Jasik. I sub-contracted work from the Smith Company who
in turn is working for the Countermeasures Branch of the Signal
Corps.
Mr. Schine. Is that at Evans Laboratory?
Mr. Jasik. I am not quite familiar with the organization it
is. I think it is three or four different laboratories.
Mr. Schine. And the Smith Company's full name is what?
Mr. Jasik. James H. Smith Manufacturing Company.
Mr. Schine. Is that classified work?
Mr. Jasik. Restricted, yes, although I was told some of the
individual antennas are unclassified and I am quite sure I am
not sure whether the overall job is classified or some of the
components in addition.
Mr. Schine. The Smith Company asked you to do some of this
work. Do you have to pass any kind of security clearance?
Mr. Jasik. Well, at the time I got into serious discussion
of the technical problem. I referred them to the Bethpage and I
believe they checked on that.
Mr. Schine. The Smith Company checked?
Mr. Jasik. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Who did you deal with in the Smith Company?
Mr. Jasik. Billet. Dan Billet.
Mr. Schine. Did he work for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Jasik. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Has he worked for the government in the past?
Mr. Jasik. Aside from the contract work, I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. What is his function at the Smith Company?
Mr. Jasik. Project engineer on this project if I am not
mistaken.
Mr. Schine. You did not report directly to the two Smith
brothers who owned the corporation?
Mr. Jasik. As a matter of fact, I have had dealings with
them too. It is not a large company.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any relatives who are working for the
government?
Mr. Jasik. What do you mean by relatives?
Mr. Cohn. Cousins? First cousins?
Mr. Jasik. Let's see. The only one, I have a brother who is
doing work for an organization who in turn----
Mr. Cohn. Is that Stan?
Mr. Jasik. Charles. He is working on Olympic Radio and
Television, I believe, and doing some work for the government.
I am not too familiar with what he is doing.
Mr. Cohn. Was your brother sympathetic towards communism?
Mr. Jasik. If he was he never expressed such a sympathy
towards me.
Mr. Cohn. Was he anti-Communist or was it just something
you don't recall having come up?
Mr. Jasik. It has never come up. I know he is sympathetic
towards unions.
Mr. Cohn. Well----
Mr. Jasik. I am not. First of all, I am trying to start a
business and I am not sympathetic towards unions.
Mr. Cohn. That is absolutely no reflection. In recent trial
the Daily Worker was unsympathetic toward a union trying to
increase the wages for people working there.
Mr. Cohn. Where does your brother live, Mr. Jasik?
Mr. Jasik. Great Neck.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know his exact address?
Mr. Jasik. Overlook Road. I am not quite sure of the
number. It is on the border between Great Neck and Little Neck.
Mr. Cohn. And you last saw Mr. Gershon in 1950, is that
right?
Mr. Jasik. Around then. To my remembrance that is right.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever discussed your work?
Mr. Jasik. Oh, no.
Mr. Cohn. Does he know where you work?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Cohn. The kind of work you do?
Mr. Jasik. No. He has never expressed any interest.
Mr. Carr. Does your wife have any relatives presently
employed by the government or very recently employed by the
government?
Mr. Jasik. Gee, I am trying to remember who some of her
relatives are. I have had very little contact with her side of
the family. If she does have any in the first cousin group, I
don't know of them.
Mr. Carr. Do you know whether Simon Gershon has any
relatives or in-laws presently employed by the government?
Mr. Jasik. That would come in the same category. As I say,
I have not had any recent contact with Gershon.
For the record I might state that in all my life I have met
him at the most a half dozen times and these have been mainly
on social occasions. Just a matter of one family visiting
another, so that my association with him has been not what you
call close by any means. I am not in sympathy with his views or
ways of achieving them. I certainly don't have any knowledge of
what his part of the family is up to, that is, beyond what I
read in the newspapers.
Mr. Carr. You have no knowledge of his relatives working
for the government?
Mr. Jasik. Frankly, I don't know who all his relatives are
aside from his wife and his mother, and my wife, who is his
sister.
Mr. Carr. Do you have any knowledge of his wife's
relatives?
Mr. Jasik. No.
Mr. Schine. Thanks very much for appearing here today. If
we need to get in touch with you, we will do so. You are
excused, at least for the moment.
Mr. Jasik. I trust you are satisfied with what evidence I
have been able to tell.
Mr. Schine. We don't evaluate testimony.
Mr. Jasik. Anytime you would like further testimony, I will
be glad to appear.
STATEMENT OF CAPTAIN BENJAMIN SHEEHAN
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name for the record?
Capt. Sheehan. Benjamin Sheehan.
Mr. Schine. Where do you live?
Capt. Sheehan. 946 Cherry Lane, Franklin Square, New York.
Mr. Schine. What is the general nature of your duties at
the present time?
Capt. Sheehan. My duties are classified.
Mr. Cohn. What is your assignment?
Capt. Sheehan. I am in the army.
Mr. Cohn. You are with CIC, aren't you? We are awfully good
security risks.
Could we get your name?
Colonel Segolis. Colonel Segolis. I am with the 108th CIC
and again, that is classified.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Capt. Sheehan, the reason we asked you to
come in here as a witness to testify before this committee is
that you did supervise an investigation of certain activities
at Fort Monmouth, particularly relating to certain documents
which were missing and subversive connections of certain
persons there. Are you that Captain Sheehan?
You can consult with counsel anytime you want too.
Capt. Sheehan. The only thing I can say is I am governed by
Army Regulations 380-5 and 380-10.
Mr. Cohn. Who is your commanding officer?
Capt. Sheehan. Colonel Huckins.
Mr. Cohn. He is G-2?
Capt. Sheehan. Again it is classified.
Mr. Cohn. He is commanding officer of the detachment?
Capt. Sheehan. Commanding officer of the 108th CIC
Detachment.
Mr. Cohn. Who is your superior at Governor's Island?
Capt. Sheehan. Colonel Johnson.
Mr. Cohn. Did you talk to Colonel Johnson before you came
over here today?
Capt. Sheehan. I did not.
Mr. Carr. Did you answer the question of whether or not you
conducted an investigation----
Capt. Sheehan. I am governed by Army Regulation 380-25.
Mr. Carr. In other words, you feel you are not able to tell
us whether or not you conducted such an investigation.
Mr. Cohn. What is your name?
Col. Thomas. Colonel Ronnie F. Thomas, chief, Counter-
Intelligence Division, G-2, Section, First Army.
Mr. Cohn. Do I assume that if I asked you the same type of
question, your answer will be the same?
Col. Thomas. If you ask me information which is classified,
I am not at liberty to answer.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you this. What exactly are you in a
position to tell the Senate committee? What type of information
is not covered by any directive?
Capt. Sheehan. Anything not classified information.
Mr. Cohn. How about matters pertaining to personnel files?
Capt. Sheehan. Are you speaking about intelligence files?
That is the only kind we have. Any information which does not
come under directives. 95 percent of the information in our
office is classified at least confidential.
Mr. Cohn. What is the 5 percent?
Capt. Sheehan. Matters pertaining to industrial security
program which is largely not classified.
Mr. Cohn. What is the industrial security program?
Capt. Sheehan. That is clearance of defense contractors and
contractor's employees.
Mr. Cohn. You say that is not classified?
Capt. Sheehan. No. All except the intelligence facts.
Mr. Cohn. How large is your district?
Capt. Sheehan. All of the First Army area.
Mr. Cohn. That is what?
Capt. Sheehan. New York, New Jersey and all of New England.
Mr. Cohn. Does that include the General Electric plant at
Schenectady?
Capt. Sheehan. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What can you tell us about security there?
Capt. Sheehan. The General Electric plant is a defense
contract, but under security cognizance of one of the other
services.
Mr. Cohn. Not army?
Capt. Sheehan. The army may have some contracts that comes
under technical service they are administering. The agency has
security cognizance with one of the other services.
Mr. Cohn. Is that navy?
Capt. Sheehan. I am not sure. I think it is navy.
Mr. Cohn. You have no concern with the security up there?
Capt. Sheehan. Yes, we do.
Mr. Cohn. To what extent?
Capt. Sheehan. The commanding general, First Army, is
responsible for security in every agency throughout the entire
First Army area.
Mr. Cohn. Specifically, how does that apply to the General
Electric plant at Schenectady?
Capt. Sheehan. If a violation of security was known or
reported, we would be required to take necessary action to see
that the deficiency was corrected.
Mr. Cohn. How would that be reported to you?
Capt. Sheehan. Various ways. It might be reported as an
incident by one of the reporting agencies or it should be
reported directly by the security officer of the General
Electric plant at Schenectady.
Mr. Cohn. Would you take direct action yourself? Would you
make a report to the security officer?
Capt. Sheehan. We would report it to G-2, Department of the
Army, and they would take it up through channels, Colonel
Johnson.
Mr. Cohn. Who is the security officer at the General
Electric plant in Schenectady? Do you know him?
Capt. Sheehan. I am not sure. I have never met him.
Mr. Cohn. What other installations are under this system?
Capt. Sheehan. Every civilian concern that has a classified
contract.
Mr. Cohn. Which are the most important ones at the present
time; I mean to army?
Capt. Sheehan. Well, I am not in the contracting end of the
business. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. I meant from the standpoint of sensitivity?
Capt. Sheehan. I couldn't answer without revealing
classified information. The minute you ask me specific
questions----
Mr. Cohn. Frankly, I think this entire interpretation is
carrying it much too far.
Capt. Sheehan. We are bound by the orders. If the secretary
of the army gives us written permission.
Mr. Cohn. Colonel Johnson has seen the secretary of the
army. I was present when he was present and he should know what
the secretary's position is on this thing. This entire
interpretation was stated two months ago when we had Colonel
Howie. I thought there had been a great deal of liberalization,
but apparently there hasn't.
Capt. Sheehan. I have not seen anything in writing changing
the existing regulations.
STATEMENT OF RUSSELL GAYLORD RANNEY
Mr. Schine. Will you state your name for the record,
please?
Mr. Ranney. Russell Gaylord Ranney.
Mr. Schine. Where are you employed?
Mr. Ranney. I work for Headquarters, SCEL, Signal Corps
Engineering Laboratory, Fort Monmouth, New Jersey.
Mr. Schine. How was it you said it?
Mr. Ranney. Headquarters SCEL. I should have said Signal
Corps Engineering Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Ranney. For the laboratory? Since August 1950.
Mr. Schine. Where did you work before that?
Mr. Ranney. Before that I worked for the Fort Monmouth
Signal School a little over a year. I have been at Fort
Monmouth since June 1949. Before that I was supervising
principal of rural schools in that area, Shrewsburg Township
Schools.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Ranney. Well, I am the chief of a small section called
inspection instructions and the primary responsibility of that
section is to further in service training, primarily to
civilians and engineers and other civilians employed. We have
put on courses intended to improve the reading skill of the
civilians, although we have some engineering officers who
attend, but primarily civilians, to improve their
comprehension. We ran a series of programs for stock record
clerks to improve their ability to recognize stock record
numbers. Now, we are carrying on a series of programs intended
to train them to write simply and clearly and logically.
Mr. Schine. Do you handle classified work?
Mr. Ranney. No. No classified material at all.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever handled classified material?
Mr. Ranney. No, I haven't.
Mr. Schine. Where did you get your college training?
Mr. Ranney. New York University. I also served on the staff
there doing this work as associate director, New York
University Reading Institute.
Mr. Schine. Would you sum up the functions of this section?
Mr. Ranney. Well, the function of this section is intended
to make the civilian employees more efficient because in
reading and writing, correspondence reports and memoranda,
etc., all sorts of material they have to read they have
occasion to read--those essential elements of the job engineers
and other people have, and basically it is supposed to save
them time. They maintain we have.
Mr. Schine. You use a number of texts in conjunction with
this instruction program?
Mr. Ranney. No, not in the reading course. In the reading
course we prepare our own material. I want to have the work
directed solely toward their problems. I have been able to get
permission to reproduce articles from Fortune, articles on
management, etc. As far as the writing course is concerned,
yes. Each student has a standard text. It is Taft, McDermott
and Jensen and you know I can't remember the exact title. It is
an English grammar book, a composition book. I can only think
of the author. Then we have a workbook by J. E. Norwood, I
think it is called English Composition Workbook.\5\ Those are
the only books used.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\5\ J. E. Norwood, Concerning Words; A Manual and Workbook (New
York: Prentice-Hall, 1938.)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Schine. Have you ever used a pamphlet known as ``Brass
Hat and the Atom.''
Mr. Ranney. I am afraid not. Show it to me.
[The pamphlet ``Brass Hat and the Atom'' was handed to Mr.
Ranney.]
No.
Mr. Schine. You never saw that?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. You never used it as far as you know?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. You would know about it if it were used in your
section?
Mr. Ranney. Oh yes. I can't imagine that I wouldn't. I am
the only instructor, except for a period last spring I had
another instructor teaching reading training. I don't imagine
he would have introduced it.
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mr. Ranney. Dale Van Winkle. He resigned and is going to
law school at the University of Michigan Law School now. We
started writing training programs last spring and that is why I
had to turn over three of the reading courses to Mr. Van
Winkle. He had been with me for two years as a soldier and then
when his period was up, a civilian position was set up for him.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever belonged to a subversive
organization or front organization?
Mr. Ranney. I will mention all that I belong to and you can
tell me which ones they may be.
First Presbyterian Church, Red Bank. American Legion, Tent
Falls Chapter, Shrewsburg Township. Masons, Abacus Chapter in
Long Branch. I belonged to Phi Delta Kappa, which is an
honorary fraternity. I belong to the Fort Monmouth Officers
Club.
Mr. Schine. Does any member of your family work for the
government?
Mr. Ranney. Yes, my wife is in Squires Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What is her job?
Mr. Ranney. She is in the materials section of the C & M
Branch. She is a chemist. She works with plastics.
Mr. Schine. Has your wife ever been connected with any
subversive organizations?
Mr. Ranney. We have been married nineteen years and I know
pretty well what she has done in that time.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever known any Communist party
members?
Mr. Ranney. Not as far as I know. There could have been
when I was in college, someone in my class, but no one I ever
recall having mentioned such a thing. I took most of my
schooling at night and it was kind of a busy time.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Ranney. Never.
Mr. Schine. Were you ever approached by the Communist
party?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have any students in your
classroom whom you felt might be Communistically inclined?
Mr. Ranney. No, I wouldn't have had an opportunity to find
out. It is a pretty intensive two-hours session and all we
talked about was improving reading skills. It wasn't a course
which would lead to broad discussions. It wasn't that sort of
thing at all. Perhaps in a history class or something like that
you might have that sort of thing come out, but not in the work
I have been doing.
Mr. Schine. Does your class have in it as students, or also
army personnel?
Mr. Ranney. No, we have a few officers but not many at
present. We have always had a few.
Mr. Schine. When they enter your class, on what basis do
they become a student? Any specific reason?
Mr, Ranney. Yes. Yes, because the heads of their agencies
ask the commanding officer of the laboratory for a quota for
these separate agencies. Our function is to train only
laboratory personnel, but I know the deputy chief of the Signal
Corps asked for a quota. In Signal Corps supply that is also
true, in Electronics Warfare Center and a couple of others.
Would you like for me to describe the procedure?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Ranney. They ask for a quota and I try to make the
membership of the classes homogeneous so as to give benefit to
everybody. I am also requested to test fifteen or twenty people
if they plan to send three to five. I give them a preliminary
grammar test to see where they stand according to the plans of
that particular training program and according to the decision
of the commanding officer of the agencies, they send the
people, the best selection for their quota.
Mr. Schine. Have you been following the current
investigation of this committee?
Mr. Ranney. Of course, yes.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever had in your classroom any of the
individuals under investigation?
Mr. Ranney. No. I was interested, naturally enough, and I
went through my records. I think I have read so far three
names; Ducore, Coleman and Yamins, and I looked them up and I
noticed that two of them three years ago took the preliminary
reading test at Evans Laboratory. Ducore was one of those I
think. I don't know of the other two. After the first series of
reading courses, there was so much interest on the part of the
base chief that they requested we plan the course on a long
range training basis. With that in mind I thought it advisable
to give reading comprehensive tests to a lot of people. There
are fifteen hundred in the files and we have trained five
hundred already in reading. We tested two of these people at
Evans. I know Ducore was on the list. I don't know which of the
other ones.
Mr. Schine. What was the nature of the test?
Mr. Ranney. The test is the standard one that we give
everybody. It is a test put out by the American Council on
Education. It is a reading comprehensive test, college graduate
level. These two people were both in the middle group. That is
all the information I have.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been personally acquainted with
any of the individuals under investigation?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever discussed the investigation with
anybody at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Ranney. Well, let me see. I want to be honest about
this. I think I have probably heard people say, ``Are they
still suspending people?'' Something of that sort.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any of the individuals who have
been suspended?
Mr. Ranney. No, I am in sort of a bystander's situation
because of the fact although I give this service to all
laboratories, I have no connection with them otherwise--their
work or anything highly specialized. I don't have these
contacts with laboratory personnel that other people would
have.
Mr. Schine. What do you do besides working at the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Ranney. I do a little consulting work. I carried on at
the New York University night section for one year until that
was too much and gave that up. Now, I am in a situation which I
have to give a certain amount of evening time in a separate
building, Camp Wood, and the reading course is being given
after hours and since I give a certain amount of evening time I
am given one-half day compensatory time. I get off every
Wednesday afternoon at twelve o'clock. Right now every
Wednesday from three to five o'clock, I teach in Philadelphia a
group of editors of the Protestant Church owned presses, the
Westminister Presbyterian Group, Anglican Reform Group, all re
the reading training program. I leave there and in the evening
I go to the Philadelphia Office of IBM and teach there. That is
the only outside work I do.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever express sympathy for Communist
activities?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. The Communist form of government?
Mr. Ranney. No, never.
Mr. Schine. You never attended any meetings?
Mr. Ranney. Never.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Ranney, you say you never had any sympathy
toward Communist activities of the Communist party objectives
or toward Russia?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever profess any sympathy? Can you
think of any statements you have ever made?
Mr. Ranney. No.
Mr. Schine. Praising Russia?
Mr. Ranney. Never.
Mr. Schine. Is it true you have quite a bit of literature?
Mr. Ranney. No, it isn't true at all that I have Communist
literature. I don't have any Communist literature.
Mr. Schine. Did anybody ever say you had Communist
literature?
Mr. Ranney. In my hearing? Not in my hearing. Not that I
know of.
Mr. Schine. Let me ask you this? At your hearing, what were
the charges they made against you?
Mr. Ranney. Nobody ever made any charges against me.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever have a hearing?
Mr. Ranney. I have never had any hearing at all.
Mr. Schine. Is your middle name Gaylord?
Mr. Ranney. Yes. G-a-y-l-o-r-d. It is a family name. My
father's mother was a Gaylord.
Mr. Schine. May I say, Mr. Ranney, I have quite a bit of
Communist literature myself and am reading it.
Mr. Ranney. Your work calls for it. Mine doesn't.
Mr. Schine. We appreciate your coming in and the fact that
you are here would not indicate we have any charges against you
or anything. We are in the middle of an investigation which
required a great deal of spade work. We have talked to a great
many individuals. Thank you for your cooperation and if we need
you again, we will call you.
STATEMENT OF SUSAN MOON
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name for the record?
Miss Moon. Susan Moon.
Mr. Schine. Where are you employed now?
Miss Moon. In Watson Area, Fort Monmouth at commercial
transportation.
Mr. Schine. How long have you worked there?
Miss Moon. Going on four years.
Mr. Schine. What are your duties?
Miss Moon. I am a transportation agent. I take care of
shipments from Evans, Squire and Cole into Watson.
Mr. Schine. Do you have access to classified material?
Miss Moon. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Are you a member of the Communist party?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You never have been a member?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You were never made any approaches?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Were you employed at the Soviet Purchasing
Commission in 1942 and 1943?
Miss Moon. Back there sometime. It was a long time ago.
Mr. Schine. Tell us about the circumstances of that
employment?
Miss Moon. I don't know how it happened. I was working for
the Treasury Department; then I went home; then I came back and
they were getting ready to start letting people off. I must
confess that at the time the segregation policy down there was
kind of messy and I hadn't been used to it. I decided to look
for another job. Somebody told me the Soviet Purchasing
Commission had a job handling American records and I went down
there and applied for the job and got it.
Mr. Schine. What were your duties?
Miss Moon. I was a typist. I did reports and stuff. We kept
the American records. At that time we were involved in the
lend-lease. That was when Russia and the United States were
allies.
Mr. Schine. Did you read some of the agreements?
Miss Moon. I didn't get involved in that. I was on the
purchasing end. They bought the material from us and we took
care of the records on the American side.
Mr. Schine. Did you learn of a transaction which involved
the sale of American cruisers to Russia?
Miss Moon. Do you mean boats?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Where were you geographically located?
Miss Moon. On 16th Street and Park Road.
Mr. Schine. In Washington?
Miss Moon. Yes.
Mr. Schine. And who was your employer? Whom did you report
to?
Miss Moon. The only one I remember I worked for was Major
Polak.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Miss Moon. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. How do you pronounce it?
Miss Moon. Major Polak.
Mr. Schine. Was he a Russian?
Miss Moon. Yes. Then my immediate supervisor was an
American.
Mr. Schine. What was his name--your immediate supervisor?
Miss Moon. It was a woman. I don't remember.
Mr. Schine. This was some of the purchasing commission?
Miss Moon. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Did Major Polak hire you?
Miss Moon. No, personnel. The American side of the
personnel division sent me to his division.
Mr. Schine. What was the name of the individual who hired
you?
Miss Moon. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. And what was the name of your immediate
supervisor?
Miss Moon. I can't think of that.
Mr. Schine. Was this office located near the Russian
embassy?
Miss Moon. The Russian embassy was down on 16th Street and
Connecticut Avenue, about a mile away.
Mr. Schine. Did you have occasion to visit the Russian
embassy?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Did officials from the Russian embassy come to
this office?
Miss Moon. Yes, people from the Pentagon. Everybody was in
and out of there. Official people from the Pentagon and embassy
both.
Mr. Schine. Did anybody there try to get you to join the
Communist party?
Miss Moon. No, they had a segregation policy. They wouldn't
let the Americans fraternize with the Russians, wouldn't talk
to them practically. If they got too friendly, they would be
among the missing.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Doxey Wilkerson?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You never knew him?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever know Doris Walters Powell?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. And you say your present job is what?
Miss Moon. Transportation agent, Signal Corps, First Army,
detailed to Watson, in the Watson area.
Mr. Schine. And your duties are that of a clerk?
Miss Moon. Traffic clerk, handling all incoming and
outgoing shipments. It is freight. We handle all of the
freight.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any Communist party members?
Miss Moon. No.
Mr. Schine. You know Major Polak?
Miss Moon. Well, I thought you meant Americans. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Did you think he was a member of the Communist
party?
Miss Moon. I don't know, he was a funny character. I will
tell you a funny story. He said to me, ``Miss Moon, I am an
engineer by mistake.'' He said he didn't want to be an
engineer. I said, ``If you don't want to be an engineer, why
don't you be something else?'' He said they wouldn't like it.
``You don't understand.'' Then he wouldn't talk any more. Then
when I looked up he was gone.
Mr. Schine. Was he still in charge there when you left?
Miss Moon. No, he left. Went back to Russia.
Mr. Schine. Who replaced him?
Miss Moon. I don't know. He was the only one that tried to
be friendly. He was more American than any of them. He tried to
be sociable.
Mr. Schine. Surely you thought some of the American
employees were tied up with the Communist party?
Miss Moon. I never thought about it. It never entered my
mind. At that time we seemed to be working together.
Mr. Schine. Think back to that situation, can you remember
the names of some of your fellow-workers who you thought were
tied up with the party. It has only been ten years.
Miss Moon. Ten years. Good Heavens! That is a long time.
Mr. Schine. How long have you been working for the Signal
Corps?
Miss Moon. I went there in June 1950. This is going on the
fourth year.
Mr. Schine. Where were you employed before that?
Miss Moon. Before that I was with the National Bureau of
Standards in Washington.
Mr. Schine. For whom did you work there?
Miss Moon. Dr. Cannon.
Mr. Schine. And how long did you work at the Bureau of
Standards?
Miss Moon. I worked there three and a half to four years.
Mr. Schine. Did you know Dr. [Edward U.] Condon?
Miss Moon. I was there during that investigation. I know
all of them big shots there.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Doxey Wilkerson?
Miss Moon. No, I don't.
Mr. Schine. What other branch of the government have you
worked for?
Miss Moon. Well, the Treasury Department and the Bureau of
Standards.
Mr. Schine. Who hired you for the Treasury Department?
Miss Moon. I took a Civil Service examination and they
called me off the list.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been sympathetic towards communism?
Miss Moon. No, indeed.
Mr. Schine. Did you like working in the Russian----
Miss Moon. No, it was too high powered.
Mr. Schine. How did they happen to hire you?
Miss Moon. At that time it was during the Lend-Lease
program and they needed Americans to handle the American side
of the records. We were giving them our money and Americans
were put in there to protect the records on the American side.
There was a definite distinction. They were there and we were
here.
Mr. Schine. Was there anybody who worked with you who you
thought was a Communist?
Miss Moon. No, I never thought about it.
Mr. Schine. Is there anything you feel you should tell the
committee at this time?
Miss Moon. No, not in particular. I never even thought
about anything like that.
Mr. Schine. In the Condon investigation what part did you
play. You said you were----
Miss Moon. Oh, no. I was down there while the furry was
going on. Nobody called me for anything. I was working down
there then.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much for coming in, Miss Moon.
We call a great many people and we make no evaluation of them
one way or another. We will call you if we need you again.
STATEMENT OF PETER ROSMOVSKY
Mr. Juliana. Mr. Rosmovsky, where do you live now?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Bradley Beach, 108 Second Avenue.
Mr. Juliana. What is your present position?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Radio engineer, Signal Corps Engineering
Laboratory, headquarters staff.
Mr. Juliana. And how long have you been there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Since January 1951.
Mr. Juliana. Were you ever employed at Los Alamos, which I
believe is in New Mexico?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No.
Mr. Juliana. No.
Mr. Rosmovsky. No. I was in New Mexico, Alamagordo Air
Base.
Mr. Juliana. What did you do there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I was on a project for the air force. I used
to work at Watson Laboratories at the time which was the air
force installation.
Mr. Juliana. When were you in New Mexico?
Mr. Rosmovsky. August 1946. I was there around Thanksgiving
of 1946. I came back east and went out again around January and
stayed there until July of 1947.
Mr. Juliana. And can you tell us specifically what you did
while you were there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I was working with one specific radar
section. I was on a special radar set tracking V-2 missiles
from White Sands.
Mr. Juliana. While you were in New Mexico did you know of
any individuals who were implicated in espionage activities?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Were you associated with officers of the
Canadian air force?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Oh, yes. I knew a Flight Lieutenant McLean.
Mr. Juliana. Was he at any time ever involved in any
Canadian espionage activities?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever been a member of a subversive
organization?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Including the Communist party?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Are you familiar with the organizations that
have been declared subversive by the attorney general?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes, I have seen the list quite a few times.
Mr. Juliana. And you have never been associated in any way
with any of those organizations?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever have any knowledge at all that
any espionage activities were going on while you were in New
Mexico, particularly among Canadian officers?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't think I do, no.
Mr. Juliana. Your associations with these people were
purely business associations?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Well, Flight Lieutenant McLean was assigned
there from the Canadian army, assigned to the air force. After
working hours we probably had drinks together at the Officers'
Club. We may have been in town together a couple of times, the
town of Alamorgordo.
That is the extent of it.
Mr. Juliana. It was more of a business association?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Oh, yes.
Mr. Juliana. Is that near Los Alamos?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Not that I know of. I don't know where Los
Alamos is exactly.
Mr. Juliana. It is near Albuquerque.
Mr. Rosmovsky. It must be 400 miles, 350 miles at least.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever have any knowledge of subversive
activities going on at Fort Monmouth--now or in the past?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
I want to add something there. Something out at Alamorgordo
Air Base. You asked me whether I had heard of any espionage. I
think when I was out there, there was some kind of rumor or
something about espionage out there.
Mr. Juliana. You knew it only as a rumor?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Can you recall any of the individuals that
were involved?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't think I know anything about
individuals. I just heard somebody say something about
espionage.
Mr. Juliana. Could it have been this fellow [Donald]
McLean?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know.
Mr. Juliana. Did he mention this to you?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't think so.
Mr. Juliana. What were his duties there?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Liaison officer, Canadian army. His job, I
believe, he was attached to the air force and also communicated
between there and White Sands, about forty miles or so. As such
he had access to V-2 data.
Mr. Juliana. Were there other Canadians there also?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't remember. I don't think so.
Mr. Juliana. He is the only Canadian you recall?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. And other than hearing about this espionage
rumor, you can't elaborate?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I just remember something being said about
spies.
Mr. Juliana. Over at Fort Monmouth, do you know Aaron
Coleman?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How well do you know him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. He came to work at the laboratory and I met
him then and I knew him when he lived in our apartment house at
108 Second Avenue. I have known him ever since.
Mr. Juliana. Were you ever a member of a car pool which
Coleman was a member of?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know him socially?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Does that mean frequent visits to his home?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How frequent?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Well, it might have been two or three times
a week. We used to drop in there. We probably ate together.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever seen a classified document in
Aaron Coleman's possession, either at his home or in his
personal possession? In his personal possession, on his person,
either inside or outside of the laboratory--outside of the
laboratory areas?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, not that I know of.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know him in 1947?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes, sir. Except I was away at Alamorgordo
most of 1947, at least until July and from July on, the rest of
1947, I was back at Watson Laboratories. I had very little
contact with Coleman during that period. I believe he was
married and I didn't see him too often and I didn't see him at
work.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know that Aaron Coleman allowed his
apartment to be searched and numerous classified documents were
found by the G-2 officers?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes, sir. I heard it.
Mr. Juliana. What was your reaction to that?
Mr. Rosmovsky. At the time?
Mr. Juliana. At the time.
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't particularly remember any reaction
except I didn't think that it was anything unusual. People
would take home stuff for study quite frequently.
Mr. Juliana. Who else besides Coleman you know of took
classified material home to study very frequently? You say it
was the usual procedure?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know that he took it home. I only
found that out afterwards.
Mr. Juliana. You never actually saw the material in his
apartment?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Bernard Martin?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How long have you known him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I can't remember very well. I knew about him
in the Signal Corps and I knew of him in the air force.
Mr. Juliana. Would you say you have known him a number of
years?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Very slightly. I know him to see him. I knew
him professionally as an employee at the Watson Laboratories.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know Bernard Martin socially?
Mr. Rosmovsky. A little bit, I guess.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know Jerome Corwin?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How did you know him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I met him when he came to work at Camp Evans
at the Signal Corps.
Mr. Juliana. When did you meet him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I don't know exactly, probably around 1942,
something like that.
Mr. Juliana. You say you have no knowledge of any espionage
activities at Fort Monmouth or at any of the laboratories?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No direct knowledge, no.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Haym Yamins?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. How well do you know him?
Mr. Rosmovsky. Well, I know him from work. I worked--I
believe I was under him, I think, at Evans for a while doing
some of the organizational changes and undoubtedly mostly from
work.
Mr. Juliana. You did not know him socially?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I knew him socially. I was to his house once
or twice.
Mr. Juliana. Did any individual ever ask you to remove
classified material from any of the laboratories when you were
working?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, sir.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever take any of the classified
material home for study or any other purpose?
Mr. Rosmovsky. I may have. I probably took classified
material home when I was working at Watson Laboratories for the
Signal Corps. When we had to make trips we had to carry papers.
We would take classified material with us.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever take classified material merely
to do your work at home, study it and then return it the next
day or within the next few days?
Mr. Rosmovsky. No, I am not exactly a student.
Mr. Juliana. All right, Mr. Rosmovsky, if we should need
you again we will be in touch with Fort Monmouth authorities
and they can advise you.
Mr. Rosmovsky. I am taking a couple of days leave beginning
Wednesday, would that make any difference?
Mr. Juliana. No, that is all right. Thanks very much.
STATEMENT OF SARAH OMANSON
Mr. Juliana. What is your name please?
Miss Omanson. Sarah Omanson.
Mr. Juliana. What is your address?
Miss Omanson. 240 State Street, Perth Amboy, New Jersey.
Mr. Juliana. What is your present position?
Miss Omanson. I am a librarian at Squire Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Juliana. You are the librarian.
Miss Omanson. I am not the librarian. I am a librarian at
Squires Laboratory.
Mr. Juliana. Where is that located?
Miss Omanson. At Fort Monmouth.
Mr. Juliana. How long have you been there?
Miss Omanson. I have been there since September 1949--I had
been there a number of years but I was transferred from the air
force.
Mr. Juliana. When did you first become employed at Fort
Monmouth?
Miss Omanson. March 1942.
Mr. Juliana. What do your present duties entail?
Miss Omanson. At the present time I do cataloging. That is
not classified material. I do have access to classified
material. I do some circulation work. You see, the present set
up, the libraries were actually one unit--Evans, Coles and
Squire, prior to moving to the new building. I have been
permanently assigned to Squires since last year. I did work two
days at Evans.
Mr. Juliana. Miss Omanson, have you ever been a member of
the Communist party?
Miss Omanson. Never.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever been a member of any
organization which has been cited as a Communist front
organization by the attorney general?
Miss Omanson. Never to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. Juliana. Are you familiar with the organizations that
have been cited by the attorney general?
Miss Omanson. Yes. I have seen the Department of Army
civilian personnel pamphlet and in laboratories.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know of any of your associates who may
be members of the Communist party?
Miss Omanson. Not to my knowledge. I wouldn't have anything
to do with them.
Mr. Juliana. Have any of your friends or anyone asked you
to remove classified material where you work?
Miss Omanson. Never.
Mr. Juliana. Have you ever removed any classified material
for studying purposes or any reason?
Miss Omanson. Never. I do not study the material.
Mr. Juliana. Who is your immediate superior?
Miss Omanson. My immediate superior at Squire is Mr. Thomas
J. Lilli, the head of all three is Helen Devore.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Miss Omanson. No, I don't.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know a Bernard Martin?
Miss Omanson. There was a Bernard Martin who was employed
in Watson. I knew him as a library patron. Later on, about a
year after he came to Monmouth. I knew he was employed there
because he came to the library at Squire.
Mr. Juliana. Since you have been employed at Fort Monmouth,
have all your duties centered around library work?
Miss Omanson. That is correct.
Mr. Juliana. What type of classified work do you handle?
Miss Omanson. As high as secret. This is for the library.
Mr. Juliana. For the purpose of laboratory personnel?
Miss Omanson. The library keeps a file.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Miss Omanson. I remember him as a library patron in Watson.
As I remember, he was suspended sometime in the forties, late
forties.
Mr. Juliana. And most of your associations with these
people is strictly business--in connection with your work?
Miss Omanson. My duties. I do not know any of them
personally.
Mr. Juliana. Do you have access to the laboratories as
such? Are you allowed to go into the laboratories?
Miss Omanson. Yes.
Mr. Juliana. Your clearance includes that.
Miss Omanson. Secret, yes.
Mr. Juliana. Do you have any knowledge of any subversive
activities at Fort Monmouth or any of the laboratories?
Miss Omanson. None whatsoever. My first inkling came with
the publicity in the newspapers.
Mr. Juliana. If you had been asked to join an organization
in Perth Amboy or had been asked to maybe sign some petition,
do you think you would have recognized it had it been a
Communist organization?
Miss Omanson. I think I would. I think so, I don't know.
Mr. Juliana. Do you have any brothers and sisters who live
in Perth Amboy?
Miss Omanson. I only have my father and mother.
Mr. Juliana. What are their names?
Miss Omanson. My father's name is Samuel and my mother's
name is Rebecca.
Mr. Juliana. Have they ever been members of any subversive
groups?
Miss Omanson. Goodness, no. Never.
Mr. Juliana. All right, Miss Omanson, I think that is
sufficient for now. If we need you in the future we will be in
touch with you through the Fort Monmouth authorities. Thanks
very much for coming.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Mounting contention developed between the
subcommittee and the United States Army over the Eisenhower
administration's refusal to make available for testimony
members of the army's loyalty and security hearing boards,
screening boards, appeals or review boards. Eisenhower relied
on a 1948 executive order by his predecessor, Harry Truman,
barring officials from discussing specific loyalty board cases.
One of the few loyalty board members to testify was Sherrod
East (1910-1999). A graduate of the University of Denver, East
came to Washington in 1933 as an aide to Colorado
Representative Lawrence Lewis. He joined the staff of the
National Archives in 1937 and during World War II was
transferred to the War Department as an archivist of military
records. Between February 1952 and March 1953, he served on the
army's loyalty screening board panel. A related issue was
East's role as an original occupant and member of the town
council of Greenbelt, Maryland, one of the planned towns that
the New Deal's Resettlement Administration had created in the
1930s. In 1958 East returned to the National Archives along
with the army's records; and retired in 1967 as chief archivist
of World War II military documents.
Nathan Sussman testified in public session on December 8,
1953. Harold Ducore, Stanley R. Rich (1917-1993), Carl
Greenblum (1916-1997), Sherrod East, Jacob Kaplan, James P.
Scott, Bernard Lee, and Melvin M. Morris did not testify in
public. Louis Leo Kaplan did not appear in public session;
instead the Louis Kaplan who testified in executive session on
October 13 was called to testify publicly on December 17,
1953.]
----------
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 30, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: G. David Schine, chief consultant; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr, staff director; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel.
Present also: John Adams, counselor to secretary of the
army.
STATEMENT OF HAROLD DUCORE (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL, HARRY
GREEN)
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name for the record,
please?
Mr. Ducore. Harold Ducore.
Mr. Schine. Will counsel state his name?
Mr. Green. Harry Green.
Mr. Schine. And your firm?
Mr. Green. No, I practice individually. 16 Church Street,
Little Silver, New Jersey.
Mr. Schine. We called you back today to ask you some
questions in light of some additional material which has turned
up.
I believe when you first appeared before us you listed all
of the references that you gave when you took a position with
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Ducore. No, I didn't. I wasn't asked that question. I
couldn't do it. It is so long ago, twelve years ago. Since then
I have filled out any number of forms with new references. When
I first filled out an application for a position, is that it?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Ducore. I don't remember that.
Mr. Green. Mr. Schine, do you mean when he first made
application for the position?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Ducore. I don't even have a copy of that at home.
Mr. Schine. Were you in the class of 1938?
Mr. Ducore. I was graduated actually in 1941. I entered in
January 1935 but I switched to night school when I was going to
school and it took me five and a half years to get through.
Mr. Schine. About how many of your classmates that attended
City College at the time you did would you say were members of
the Communist party?
Mr. Ducore. I have no idea of that. I went to get an
education. I don't know if you are aware of the situation, but
that is a subway school. You go to school by subway, train, and
go home when you are finished. All during the time I was going
to school I was also working, at the beginning in my father's
restaurant and after that for the New Jersey Broadcasting
Corporation, and I had no time for outside activities.
Mr. Schine. About how many did you know when at City
College?
Mr. Ducore. I had no outside interest at the school other
than belonging to the Radio Club.
Mr. Schine. Didn't you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Ducore. I don't remember him from school at all.
Mr. Schine. You can't remember any of the names of the
references that you gave when you took a position with the
Signal Corps?
Mr. Ducore. I don't remember any specific names. The only
possibility would be that I gave names of some of the people I
worked with at the New Jersey Broadcasting Corporation.
Mr. Schine. Give us those names?
Mr. Ducore. The chief engineer was my brother-in-law, Wayne
Allison Burnham. The other engineers that were there at the
same time were William Fairclough, Harold McCambridge, Theodore
Gemp.
Mr. Schine. Now, when did you first meet J. Robert
Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. I never met him. Are you talking about the
physicist, the scientist?
Mr. Schine. Did you ever know an Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. I knew a--I can't think of his first name. He
was married to a girl my wife knew up in New Rochelle, New
York.
Mr. Schine. Did you know him very well?
Mr. Ducore. I knew him while he was over at Fort Monmouth.
He was stationed there.
Mr. Schine. Did you meet him after you went to Fort
Monmouth?
Mr. Ducore. Oh, yes. After he was stationed at Fort
Monmouth his wife came down and she knew my wife and we saw
them several times after he was discharged.
Mr. Schine. Did you give him as a reference?
Mr. Ducore. I gave him as a reference but not in the
beginning.
Mr. Schine. When did you give him as a reference?
Mr. Ducore. I can't think of the date. Five, six, seven
years ago.
Mr. Schine. You knew him?
Mr. Ducore. That was at the time at Fort Monmouth or
shortly after he left. This Oppenheimer I am talking about, I
can't think of his first name. I gave him as a reference.
Mr. Schine. J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. This is not J. Robert I gave as a reference.
Mr. Schine. In other words, you never knew J. Robert
Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. But you did know a man by the name of
Oppenheimer who was a friend of your sister's?
Mr. Ducore. Married to a friend of my wife.
Mr. Schine. When did you give him as a reference?
Mr. Ducore. I gave him as a reference sometime when I was
employed at Fort Monmouth in connection with a promotion, or
something. No, I think it was one of the Civil Service forms.
It may have been a new security form.
Mr. Schine. Were his initials J. R.?
Mr. Ducore. Gee, I can't think of his first name.
Mr. Schine. Was he any relation to J. Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. That I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Will you try and think of his name?
Mr. Ducore. I will try.
Mr. Schine. Or his address or where you first met?
Mr. Ducore. I first met him at Fort Monmouth while he was a
2nd lt. there.
Mr. Schine. What was his job?
Mr. Ducore. At that time I think he was in the publications
agency, I am not sure.
Mr. Schine. Approximately what year was this?
Mr. Ducore. Well, this would have been after I was married;
probably I would say, 1945.
Mr. Schine. Could you find out from your wife what his name
is?
Mr. Ducore. Oh, yes. I know his wife's name was Emily and
her maiden name was Lowenfeld.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Ducore. I think L-o-w-e-n-f-e-l-d.
Mr. Schine. Now, will you get that information to the
committee as soon as you can?
Mr. Ducore. Would you like for me to call Mr. Buckley?
Mr. Schine. Yes, if you would call.
Mr. Schine. Did you take out secret documents last year
which you didn't return?
Mr. Ducore. No, I never took out any secret documents for
my own private use.
Mr. Schine. Isn't it true that you took out two secret
documents and instead of returning them you destroyed them?
Mr. Ducore. No. I never knew anything about that.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever been asked about that?
Mr. Ducore. No, I have never been asked. That is something
I wouldn't do.
Mr. Schine. You never destroyed secret documents?
Mr. Ducore. Never outside the laboratory.
Mr. Schine. Did you destroy two secret documents in the
laboratory?
Mr. Ducore. Any number in the laboratory, yes.
Mr. Schine. Did you take out secret documents which you
didn't return?
Mr. Ducore. No, never.
Mr. Schine. Or which were unaccounted for?
Mr. Ducore. Never.
Mr. Schine. When was the last time you took secret document
out?
Mr. Ducore. I can't give you any specific dates, but I
think approximately a year ago. I can't be sure of this. I took
some material to Washington with me.
Mr. Schine. Which material was this?
Mr. Ducore. I can't even remember the particular trip.
Mr. Schine. You didn't take any secret material between
that time and between the time your security clearance was
lifted?
Mr. Ducore. I know I needed it but other people accompanied
me on the 538 who were allowed to take documents out.
Mr. Schine. What was the approximate date of this trip to
Washington when you took out secret material?
Mr. Ducore. The best I can give you would be a year ago.
Mr. Schine. That would be around October 1952?
Mr. Ducore. Roughly. I have no way of really remembering.
Mr. Schine. And you never to the best of your knowledge
took secret material out since October 1952?
Mr. Ducore. To the best of my knowledge I never took
anything on a trip since that time. I have had material out but
other people would carry it.
Mr. Schine. Who carried it?
Mr. Ducore. Colonel Gaither, director of Evans Signal Corps
and John J. Slattery, who is the acting chief of the technical
division, Evans Signal Corps.
Mr. Schine. What was this material, secret?
Mr. Ducore. Oh, yes.
Mr. Schine. They went to Washington with you?
Mr. Ducore. Not necessarily to Washington but on trips that
I needed material they gave it to them to carry.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go?
Mr. Ducore. With Colonel Gaither I went to Fort Sill,
Oklahoma. With Mr. Slattery, I am not positive but I think it
was Washington.
Mr. Schine. Was anybody else on that trip?
Mr. Ducore. With Colonel Gaither, yes. Mr. Lowenstein,
Allan J.
Mr. Schine. Has his security been lifted?
Mr. Ducore. Yes, it was.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any reason?
Mr. Ducore. No, I don't think he has had any charges yet.
Mr. Schine. I don't think we have any more questions to ask
you now. If we need you we will get in touch with you. We
appreciate your coming up today.
We will appreciate it if you will get that name----
Mr. Ducore. Oh, Philip. I don't know his middle initial. He
was a 2nd lt. When he got out of the army he worked for a
chemical company, Merck, but it wasn't too long after that that
we stopped seeing each other.
Mr. Schine. Did you know him very well?
Mr. Ducore. I knew him as a pleasant fellow. We use to go
out together. We would go to the movies together.
Mr. Schine. You don't know whether he is related to J.
Robert Oppenheimer?
Mr. Ducore. I have no idea.
Mr. Schine. You don't know that he isn't related?
Mr. Ducore. No, I don't.
Mr. Schine. All right. Thank you very much.
STATEMENT OF STANLEY RICH
Mr. Schine. Will you give us your name for the record?
Mr. Rich. Stanley R. Rich.
Mr. Schine. And where do you live?
Mr. Rich. I live in West Hartford, Connecticut.
Mr. Schine. What is your current occupation?
Mr. Rich. I am co-director of the Rich-Roth Laboratories of
Hartford.
Mr. Schine. Is that a private company?
Mr. Rich. That is correct, sir.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever worked for the government?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I have.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about the jobs you have had
with the government?
Mr. Rich. My first position out of school was with the
Bureau of Ordnance, Navy Department, Torpedo Design Section in
Washington, D.C., which I held from October 24, 1938 to
February 1, 1940; then I was transferred to the Radio Material
Office, New York Navy Yard, Brooklyn, New York, where after
various titles, the last one I had was outside supervising
engineer in charge of installation and maintenance of
electronic equipment of various kinds. Those are the only
government jobs I have had.
Mr. Schine. When did you start the last job?
Mr. Rich. February 1, 1940. That was a transfer and it
terminated in April 1943, when it was requested by the Bureau
of Ships that I transfer to Harvard University because I had
developed a new type sonar system and proposed it to the bureau
and I have a commendation for that.
Mr. Schine. Your second job was ordnance. That was navy?
Mr. Rich. That is correct.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Rich. City College, New York and two other schools.
Mr. Schine. You knew Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Rich. In school.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about your association with
Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Rich. Rosenberg was a classmate of mine. I believe he
either graduated at the same time I did, which was June 1938,
or not too differently thereafter. I was also a member, for a
period of about eight months of a club which is called
``Steinmetz Club'' which was affiliated with the Young
Communist League. Rosenberg was an officer of that club. I
attended several meetings of the club myself.
Mr. Schine. Do you know some of the other individuals who
were in that club?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I do. Sobell, Elitcher, Danziger, Sussman.
Mr. Schine. Which Sussman?
Mr. Rich. This is Nathan, the fellow I met for the first
time in fifteen years out here. He looks different without his
hair.
Mr. Schine. The Sussman in the waiting room?
Mr. Rich. Yes. Now, that was the total extent of my
knowledge of Rosenberg, sir.
Mr. Schine. Can you give us any other names of Communists
you knew in that period of your life?
Mr. Rich. Well, I would say that almost everyone in the
graduating class that I was in, while not a Communist by any
means, nor would I go on record as accusing people which I have
no proof of, was undoubtedly interested in these things and
probably on one or more occasions attended a meeting or so.
Mr. Schine. Do you know who was the main instigator of
Communist activities at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. I don't know who for sure but I would say that
the ring-leader, without a question in my mind, was Rosenberg.
Mr. Schine. Do you know who lead Rosenberg?
Mr. Rich. No, sir, that I don't.
Mr. Schine. We know he was quite active during the class of
1938, that period around there, but we have been trying to
ascertain who indoctrinated Rosenberg if that is possible to
find out.
Mr. Rich. That I don't know, sir.
Mr. Schine. Do you know where you could find that out?
Mr. Rich. No. That has been fifteen and a half years and my
interest in those things ceased when I graduated.
Mr. Schine. I understand there is a professor there who is
quite radical. Can you think of any professor that might have
been the main advocate of communism?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't know the main advocate would be. There
is only one professor whose name sticks in my mind and I think
he was bounced the year after I graduated. Somebody name
Schappes.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell that?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't know that.
Mr. Cohn. S-c-h-a-p-p-e-s, Morris.
Mr. Rich. I personally had no contact with this fellow.
This is a recollection from things that happened around this
school.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any names of other professors
who had leftist leanings?
Mr. Rich. Really not for the reason in the engineering
school there were practically none. By none, I am not as
certain of that as the day I was born. In the engineering
school I don't think any of the professors exhibited it openly.
Mr. Cohn. How about Professor Lehrman in the chemistry
department?
Mr. Rich. No, I didn't know him. I had one course in
chemistry, general chemistry.
Mr. Schine. Did any professors try to get you to join the
Communist party?
Mr. Rich. Never did.
Mr. Schine. Did anybody else?
Mr. Rich. No. Incidentally, never in my life. I think
possibly I was a much to independent person to be lead by the
nose.
Mr. Schine. Do you know any individuals working at Fort
Monmouth or working for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Rich. I know now that classmates of mine are out there.
I visited that area once in the company of Dr. Alfred G. Ennis
as a representative from the Submarine Signal Company as a
representative to an electronic conference there and met a
whole lot of people, including people who were some of my
classmates. I couldn't tell you who or how many.
Mr. Schine. What about Harold Ducore?
Mr. Rich. I don't recall him.
Mr. Schine. Coleman?
Mr. Rich. Coleman I do recall. His name is familiar to me.
I didn't see him when I visited Monmouth.
Mr. Schine. Do you remember Ducorsky?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. What about Jerome Corwin?
Mr. Rich. That doesn't mean anything to me.
Mr. Schine. Jerome Rothstein?
Mr. Rich. The name is slightly familiar but I'm sure I
wouldn't know him.
Mr. Schine. William P. Goldberg?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Edward J. Fister?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Allan J. Lowenstein?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Paul Seigal?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. Can you remember any individuals who were in
your class end who associated with the Rosenberg crowd that are
now working for the United States government?
Mr. Rich. Frankly, no. In this recent investigation of
yours names have come into the press. Sussman whom I have just
met here for the first time in fifteen and a half years use to
know Rosenberg. I don't know what he has done since then. If
you could tell me some more names.
Mr. Schine. How about Sorwitz, Jerome. Do you remember him?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Schine. You do recall Coleman?
Mr. Rich. Oh, yes.
Mr. Schine. Do you remember any of Coleman's friends?
Mi. Rich. I don't think Coleman ran with the Rosenberg
crowd more or less while at school.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether or not Coleman was a
Communist then?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't be able to say. My recollection would
be that I would doubt it. He was a very studious kid as I
remember. That doesn't have anything to do with it I know.
Mr. Cohn. Was he in the Steinmetz Club?
Mr. Rich. I don't believe he was but I wouldn't be
surprised if he attended a meeting.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him at a meeting?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't be able to recall.
Mr. Cohn. Don't you have any recollection?
Mr. Rich. I am trying to dredge my memory. That is pretty
much of a blur now.
Mr. Schine. Do you know if it would be possible to get a
list of the members of the Steinmetz Club?
Mr. Rich. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Continue.
Mr. Rich. The people I have named are the people I recall.
A couple I have left out. I guess Perl attended more meetings,
whether he was a member or not, I don't know. I think he
attended more meetings than Coleman on a qualitative basis. I
would say Perl was certainly friendlier to Sobell and Elitcher
than was Coleman.
Mr. Schine. But Coleman was quite friendly with them?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't say he was overly friendly, no.
Mr. Schine. Do you have any recollection of Coleman being
at any of these meetings?
Mr. Rich. Not specifically. I do have recollection that
damn near everybody attended a meeting or so. The trouble was
the campus atmosphere of those days was what I now would
consider to be poison.
Mr. Cohn. How about Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Rich. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Samuel Pomeranz?
Mr. Rich. I recall him.
Mr. Cohn. Was he at any of these meetings?
Mr. Rich. I would doubt it.
Mr. Cohn. How about Sam Lavine?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't really be able to say. Maybe yes and
maybe no.
Mr. Cohn. Louie Volp?
Mr. Rich. I don't know him.
Mr. Cohn. Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Rich. No.
In answer to one of your earlier question as to whether I
knew people working out there or not, I can tell you this: I
wouldn't know whether they are working out there or not.
Mr. Schine. Would you answer this please. You say that the
climate of CCNY--in fact, would you say the entire school was
leftist?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I would definitely say that.
Mr. Schine. Now, communism was a pretty openly discussed
ideology?
Mr. Rich. Unfortunately there was a situation I would not
want to tolerate when I send my children to school. There was a
situation where younger people, like myself, what amounts to a
fertile field for ideas in the midst of people who are telling
lies.
Mr. Schine. Was Julius Rosenberg openly a Communist at that
time?
Mr. Rich. I would say almost more than anybody else in the
engineering school.
Mr. Schine. Do you think that everybody who knew Julius
Rosenberg knew he was a Communist?
Mr. Rich. I would be surprised if anyone said opposite.
Mr. Schine. Would you think Aaron Coleman knew that Julius
Rosenberg was a Communist?
Mr. Rich. I would say so. I'd be surprised if he didn't
recognize that.
Mr. Schine. Do you think he would have known at that time
that Julius Rosenberg was a Communist?
Mr. Rich. That is what you just asked me.
Mr. Schine. I mean Morton Sobell?
Mr. Rich. He might or might not have. I think the answer is
less definite but still positive.
Mr. Schine. In other words, Sobell and Rosenberg were both
open Communists?
Mr. Rich. We will put it this way: There seemed to be a
group of people who socialized a lot together. They lived--
actually, I don't know where they lived.
Mr. Cohn. Who?
Mr. Rich. Sobell, Elitcher, Danziger and a fellow named
Barr.
Mr. Cohn. Joel Barr?
Mr. Rich. Yes, I think that was his first name.
Mr. Cohn. How about Benjamin Zuckerman?
Mr. Rich. I knew him quite well. If he has gotten into
trouble, poor kid, he has been terribly mislead. At school he
was not leftist in the slightest degree. Maybe he was but I
didn't think of him in those terms. Actually, I wasn't
particularly friendly with Zuckerman at school, but we moved to
Washington, various of us accepted positions in Washington and
Zuckerman was not what anybody would classify as leftist.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a fellow by the name of Mark
Pogarsky?
Mr. Rich. I don't know anything about him except I remember
the name it is so unusual.
Mr. Schine. Was there anyone to whom Julius Rosenberg
reported?
Mr. Rich. That, sir, I would not know.
Mr. Schine. Did there seem to be individuals or places that
Julius Rosenberg as the so-called ring leader of this group
went for instructions?
Mr. Rich. I wouldn't know, sir. Just how these things
happened is still something of a mystery to me.
Mr. Cohn. How about a fellow named Sam Greenman?
Mr. Rich. No.
Mr. Cohn. Can you recall the names of any other persons who
attended the Steinmetz Club?
Mr. Rich. Not as such. I do recall another individual who
worked for the government. I think one of the fellows phoned
me, Mr. Juliana, and asked me about a fellow named Bennet. I
did recall there was a Bennett. The reason I remember that, did
he have another name?
Mr. Cohn. Benowitz. What about him did he attend these
meetings?
Mr. Rich. I would say not. He wasn't particularly
interested anyway. All of these remarks essentially are
recollections of impressions.
Mr. Schine. What about Jack Okun?
Mr. Rich. I don't remember him.
Mr. Schine. I asked you before to give us the names of any
individuals who attended City College, New York, who you
thought were affiliated with the Communist movement and who
since have taken positions and worked for the U.S. government.
Can you give us anymore names?
Mr. Rich. Beyond those I have mentioned, I am sort of a
blank. I will be thinking about it a little bit.
Mr. Schine. Which names have you mentioned already?
Mr. Rich. Well, I think the people are apparently friends
of Rosenberg. I think that is about it, actually. I find out
Sussman had been with the government. I say I find out, he just
told me.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever come in contact with any of these
individuals after college days?
Mr. Rich. With some of them when various people at the
school took the Civil Service examination and some of us were
offered positions in Washington and at the Bureau of Ordnance,
I found myself arriving at approximately the same time as
Elitcher, Sobell, Danziger, Ben Zuckerman, a fellow named
Solberg, incidentally, who was a graduate of a few years before
that. He was not even contemporary with us but he later took a
position. I knew those people in Washington.
Excuse me. I don't want to be too loose. I knew those
people at work and for a period of three months I lived with
them while preparing to get married. After I was married we
moved off on Delafield Place. This has been well documented.
Mr. Schine. Were there any other Communists you haven't
told us about?
Mr. Rich. No. I want to say, if I may, my wife and I had
taken a distinct dislike to these particular people and after
that three months period we did not socialize with them at all
in Washington or ever after. I am a reasonably mild mannered
fellow but I called Sobell a swine once when I had supper with
him.
Mr. Schine. Why did you call him that?
Mr. Rich. He is personally piggish in his habits, an
irascible person. Just a louse.
Mr. Schine. Did these people have Communist meetings at
this residence?
Mr. Rich. This I would not know. To the best of my
knowledge they did not. I spent most of my weekends courting my
wife in New York City.
Mr. Schine. Did they ever have visitors--foreigners from
Russia?
Mr. Rich. Not that I know of.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of anyone these individuals
contacted that they took orders from?
Mr. Rich. I never knew these individuals in any later
years, thank God. At the time I went to ordnance, after moving
into my own place I lost contact with them and saw an entirely
different group of people.
Mr. Schine. You can't think of anyone they contacted and
took orders from when you lived with them?
Mr. Rich. No, sir. I can't, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did these people talk about the overthrow by
force and violence of our government?
Mr. Rich. Not in my earshot, sir.
Mr. Schine. Did they ever talk about espionage or hint that
they might be interested in obtaining information for a foreign
government?
Mr. Rich. No. At least not while I was around.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever see them with any confidential,
secret or classified information they shouldn't have had?
Mr. Rich. No, I must say in the three months I lived with
them we were junior engineers doing extremely menial work. I,
myself, at that time worked on torpedoes. Nothing that I was
given to do was of any nature where you would want to even
study it.
Mr. Schine. Now, when you took this job with the ordnance
division, how did you happen to become interested in it?
Mr. Rich. Jobs were kind of hard to get--engineers. I took
a Civil Service examination in June, the same month I
graduated. I had a grade of, I don't know, somewheres in the
nineties, and I was very pleased.
Mr. Schine. Do you think it was coincidental that they took
these positions or do you think somebody in ordnance was trying
to get people of that following in government?
Mr. Rich. I personally feel it must have been coincidental.
I believe it was entirely according to position on the list.
For example, I have no proof and wouldn't know the power behind
the screen, but there are some fact which lead me to feel it
was random and those are that, as I recall, I don't know what
the grades were, the various grades made by various individuals
were in a point or so of each other. I suspect it must have
been random. I certainly had no inkling of any of this.
Mr. Schine. Were all of the individuals examined quite
capable in their work at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. That was one of the toughest exams I have ever
had the displeasure of encountering in my life. It was a mess.
A six-hour examination. It was really comprehensive and anybody
who got a good grade knew his studies.
Mr. Schine. Were these individuals known for their good
grades while at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. Not particularly. I say that for the following
reason: CCNY is, of course, a free college and there are a
tremendous number of students who were flunked out of the
school. Of an engineering class of over two thousand, about one
hundred graduated. Those who graduate are all pretty good.
Mr. Schine. That is what I am trying to ascertain. We have
this group of Communists who attended CCNY and went with the
government. They had to take a very tough examination to go
with the government.
Mr Rich. That is right.
Mr. Schine. Now, were they actually capable to your
knowledge, capable enough to pass this examination?
Mr. Rich. Oh, yes.
Mr. Schine. Or do you think there might have been something
wrong with the Civil Service----
Mr. Rich. With the examination? I doubt that, sir. I doubt
that very much. The curriculum at CCNY--I think the reason a
student at CCNY got good grades on the examination, by and
large, has not so much to do with the types of individuals but
the extreme thoroughness of the curriculum.
Mr. Schine. In other words, all individuals if they
graduated from CCNY had to be at least intelligent enough to
pass these Civil Service examinations?
Mr. Rich. Yes.
Mr. Schine. I have nothing more that I'd like to ask you
now, unless you can think of further information you'd like to
give us.
Mr. Rich. No, except to say I am extremely pleased not to
have had anything to do with these people since I graduated. If
I can be of further help--my time is difficult. I do appreciate
you getting to me now.
Mr. Schine. Did many people fail the examination at CCNY?
Mr. Rich. I don't believe so. I think the entire graduating
class did a very good job on the examination and I know that
other colleges did not. I know there was something like several
hundred who passed out of six or seven thousand, that is vague
figures, who took the examination.
Mr. Schine. All right. Thank you very much for cooperating
with us. We will call you if we need you again.
STATEMENT OF NATHAN SUSSMAN
Mr. Schine. Will you give us your full name, please?
Mr. Sussman. Nathan Sussman.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you very much for coming up Mr. Sussman.
Mr. Schine. Where are you currently employed?
Mr. Sussman. I am currently employed at Amuco American
Electronics Company.
Mr. Schine. And have you worked for the government in the
past?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us the various jobs you have had
with the government--federal government?
Mr. Sussman. From October 1940 to April 1942 I was employed
by the inspector of naval materiel.
Mr. Schine. What was your function?
Mr. Sussman. Radio employee.
Mr. Cohn. In the navy?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. And where did you go to college?
Mr. Sussman. City College, New York.
Mr. Schine. Now, when at CCNY, you knew Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Would you give us the names of all individuals
you can think of who were tied up with the Communist movement?
Mr. Sussman. You mean the Young Communist League in
particular?
Mr. Schine. Yes, members of the Young Communist League.
Mr. Cohn. Not only members but people you saw in meeting,
differentiating as you go along.
Mr. Sussman. Morton Sobell, Max Elitcher, Abe Emmer.
Mr. Cohn. What ever happened to him? Do you know?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. You never heard of him after that?
Mr. Sussman. I don't think so. Joseph Goldfield, Stanley
Rich, Irvin Rosenblum, Henry Shoiket, Aaron Coleman.
Mr. Cohn. Was he a Communist?
Mr. Sussman. Member of the Young Communist League. There
are others. I will have to think about.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any other now?
Mr. Sussman. Morris Savitsky.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear of a man by the name of Morris
Savitt?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Schine. Do you recall Coleman being at more than one
meeting of the league?
Mr. Sussman. My recollection is he was a member. I don't
particularly recall any meetings of the league.
Mr. Schine. You knew Coleman?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Schine. Rather well?
Mr. Sussman. I wouldn't say that. I think he was behind me
in school. He was a relatively lower-classman.
Mr. Schine. Who do you associate him with at college?
Mr. Sussman. Coleman?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Sussman. I couldn't say.
Mr. Schine. How did you know him? You knew him together
with whom? Was there anybody else who knew him along with you?
Mr. Sussman. I imagine there must have been, but I can't
remember at this date. That was so long ago. I believe he was
behind me maybe two years or so.
Mr. Schine. Did you meet him at Young Communist League
activities?
Mr. Sussman. Probably.
Mr. Schine. Is that your best recollection?
Mr. Sussman. That is.
Mr. Schine. Would you continue giving us the names? Can you
think of some others?
Mr. Sussman. Matthew Reliz. Did I give Sobell?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Sussman. Joel Barr.
Mr. Cohn. Was Barr likewise a member?
Mr. Schine. All of these were members, weren't they?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, they were.
Mr. Cohn. What ever happened to Goldfield?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Rosenblum?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. How about Shoiket?
Mr. Sussman. Well, Shoiket, I heard, was out in California.
Mr. Cohn. What was he doing out there?
Mr. Sussman. I heard he was working at the navy yard.
Mr. Cohn. About when was that? You probably heard that when
the FBI and all those people were talking to you about the time
of the Rosenbergs.
Mr. Sussman. Yes. Apparently he had been employed there
during the current period. That was my guess.
Mr. Cohn. Where in California? Do you know?
Mr. Sussman. I think Mare Island in San Francisco.
Mr. Cohn. How about Reliz? Do you know what, happened to
him?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any individuals who got jobs
with the government?
Mr. Sussman. I have a vague notion that Coleman may be
working at Fort Monmouth. I don't know what gives me that
impression.
Mr. Schine. Did Coleman join the Communist party?
Mr. Sussman. I have no idea.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether he belonged to the party?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Not in your section in any event?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see Coleman at Communist
meetings?
Mr. Sussman. I would say when I left school or earlier. I
did not see him afterwards.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether he went on into the party?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe I saw him. Another name is
Alexander Farkas. Another is Harry Pastorinsky.
Mr. Cohn. What type of Communist activities in connection
with--in connection with what would you meet these people?
Mr. Sussman. Meetings, most of these people. I don't
believe they did much more than meetings.
Mr. Cohn. The Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did the Young Communist League put out a little
newspaper?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, the technology group did which it has
been recollected to me the name was ``The Interrogator.''
Mr. Schine. Would it be possible for us to get a copy of
the members of the Young Communist League at that time?
Mr. Sussman. Well, what do you mean? From what source?
Mr. Schine. I don't know.
Mr. Sussman. Well, the only source I have is my memory.
There is nothing written. There is no list that I know of.
Mr. Schine. How about that publication? Do you know where
we might get copies?
Mr. Sussman. No. Other people might know but I don't.
Mr. Schine. Was Julius Rosenberg the ringleader of this
group?
Mr. Sussman. He was president of the technology group.
Mr. Cohn. Technology group of the Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Were all these people in the technology group?
Mr. Sussman. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Cohn. We have got Emmer, Sobell, Goldfield, Rosenblum,
Shoiket, Coleman, Reliz, Barr, Pastorinsky. Were everyone of
those including Pastorinsky engineering students?
Mr. Sussman. I don't recollect that he was there. I presume
he was there.
Mr. Cohn. You said you did not know whether Coleman joined
the party?
Mr. Sussman. No, I don't.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see any evidence of a break with
Coleman?
Mr. Sussman. I haven't seen him. I last saw him there. I
don't know what happened. He might have gone on to the party or
he might have become anti-Communist.
Mr. Schine. Who was the main canvasser for the party?
Mr. Sussman. I was fairly active. Rosenberg was active.
There were many people active.
Mr. Schine. Was some faculty member the outside contact?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, there was a faculty representative of the
Communist party to the Young Communist League.
Mr. Schine. What was his name?
Mr. Sussman. Morris Foner.
Mr. Cohn. That couldn't be Phillip?
Mr. Sussman. No. There was four brothers. All of them were
teaching.
Mr. Schine. Is he still there?
Mr. Sussman. This man was in the registrar's office. He was
not a teacher.
Mr. Schine. And his job was to more or less run the thing
from the top?
Mr. Sussman. No, I wouldn't say that. He didn't run it. He
gave advice.
Mr. Schine. Who did run it. Where did the orders come from?
Mr. Sussman. The directives came from the next higher
authority. Yes, that is true.
Mr. Schine. What was the next higher authority?
Mr. Sussman. It varied at different times. At one time it
was the County Student Commission, I believe. It wasn't
commission. Committee, I guess. County Student Committee.
Mr. Schine. Who was on that committee?
Mr. Sussman. The one I remember was Ruth Watt. I believe
she died a long time ago.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall that it was Julius Rosenberg who
brought Coleman into the Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Was he already in there at the time you joined?
Mr. Sussman. Coleman, I think he came in afterwards.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any other names on the higher
authority?
Mr. Sussman. No, after I graduated for a short time I was
on the County Student Committee.
Mr. Schine. Anybody else on that? Can you give us their
names?
Mr. Sussman. I don't think it had any names.
Mr. Cohn. You made some mention of Reliz, Savitsky,
Pastorinsky--do you know whether any of those individuals work
for the government now?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether any of them ever worked for
the government?
Mr. Sussman. Savitsky worked for the Navy Yard in Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. Did you think he was a member of the Communist
party at the time he was at the Brooklyn Navy Yard?
Mr. Sussman. I guess I know that he was.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know what sort of work he did?
Mr. Sussman. He was some sort of technical clerk in the
stock room?
Mr. Cohn. How about Pastorinsky?
Mr. Sussman. He was an inspector. It could have been the
Signal Corps. I don't know. Some army group at the same time I
was inspector for naval materiel.
Mr. Cohn. Here in New York? An army group here in New York?
Mr. Sussman. No, I ran into him at the RCA plant in
Harrison, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think this was something having to do with
the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sussman. It was inspector of a group similar to the
Inspector of naval materiels but army.
Mr. Cohn. Who was this Pastorinsky?
Mr. Sussman. Harry.
Mr. Cohn. How about Goldfield?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about Emmer? Do you know whether he worked
for the government?
Mr. Sussman. No. I don't.
Mr. Cohn. Let me ask you some questions about Coleman and
your knowledge of his membership in the Young Communist League.
Did you ever see him at meetings that you can specifically
remember?
Mr. Sussman. Not that I remember.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him at meetings of the Steinmetz
Club?
Mr. Sussman. That was the same thing.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him at meetings of a club
similar to that--Communist?
Mr. Sussman. Probably did. I can't recall that right now.
Mr. Cohn. You have stated that from your memory Coleman was
a member of the Young Communist League. Can you place him at
any meetings?
Mr. Sussman. Among other things, there were so many
meetings and so many other things.
Mr. Cohn. But you don't have definite recollection of his
being at meetings?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any recollection of personal
conversations which would place him in the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have recollection of Julius Rosenberg
including Coleman in conversations as a Communist or a Young
Communist League member?
Mr. Sussman. It is a feeling. I have a definite
recollection of a feeling that he was member of the Young
Communist League.
Mr. Cohn. How long?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe that it was very long because
I think he was an under-classman.
Mr. Cohn. You had only known him a year or so but you had
the feeling he belonged?
Mr. Sussman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. So you did see him in connection with some of
these activities?
Mr. Sussman. I must have seen him to carry that memory
fifteen years later. What I could do is pick his face out, at
least his face at that time.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen him in the last ten years?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Schine. Did most of those individuals go on to the
Communist party?
Mr. Sussman. I don't know what most of those individuals
did.
Mr. Cohn. Now, let me ask you this: Does that about exhaust
your recollection of the Young Communist League?
Mr. Sussman. There would be more.
Mr. Cohn. Let me throw some names at you. Harold Ducorsky?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Samuel Pomeranz?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe so.
Mr. Cohn. Samuel Lavine?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Do you associate him with the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Sussman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What did he look like?
Mr. Sussman. Fat fellow, sort of stout with round jaws and,
I believe, he had black hair. I am not sure of that.
Mr. Cohn. Louie Volp?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Jack Okun?
Mr. Sussman. I don't believe so.
Mr. Cohn. Jerome Zorwitz?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Jerome Corwin?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Brody?
Mr. Sussman. Not particularly.
Mr. Cohn. Herbert Bennet?
Mr. Sussman. He was not a member.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody named Goldberg?
Mr. Sussman. No, I don't think so. Lots of Goldbergs there.
Mr. Cohn. How about Benjamin Zuckerman?
Mr. Sussman. He was not also. I believe he associated with
some of the boys like Perl.
Mr. Cohn. Was his name mentioned?
Mr. Sussman. No, you forgot Perl.
Mr. Cohn. Did you go on from the Young Communist League and
become a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Sussman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. What cell did you join?
Mr. Sussman. Well, I am told number 16B.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the industrial section of the Communist
party?
Mr. Sussman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Who were some of the people?
Mr. Sussman. Well, Barr, Sarant, Schoiket, Savitsky,
Rosenberg, Sol Tenenbaum.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever work for the government?
Mr. Sussman. That is a question. I don't know. I think he
did.
Mr. Cohn. Who else?
Mr. Sussman. There was some young fellow named Arthur, I
think, something or other.
Mr. Cohn. How long did you remain in section 16B?
Mr. Sussman. Until January or February of 1944.
Mr. Cohn. Were you transferred to some other section?
Mr. Sussman. Yes, Sunnyside Queens.
Mr. Cohn. Who was in that section?
Mr. Sussman. In Sunnyside?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Sussman. Gee, I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Any of these CCNY people?
Mr. Sussman. No.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody who worked for the government?
Mr. Sussman. Not that I know of.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody connected with the names thrown at you?
Mr. Sussman. Not that I know of.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you in that section?
Mr. Sussman. Until January 1945. I took a transfer but I
didn't get there until three or four months later. When I got
there, it was CPA, Communist Political Association, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. What happened in 1945?
Mr. Sussman. We resigned, my wife and I.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Schine. We are very much interested, of course, in
knowing the names of individuals who were connected or are
connected with the Communist movement who are working currently
for the United States government, and if you try to think about
this and remember some of the names it would be very helpful.
Mr. Sussman. I can't if I don't know anything about them.
This was years ago, and I wouldn't know among other things
whether they are working for the government.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Schine. We will certainly appreciate your cooperation
and help. If you think of some of the names, it will be of even
greater value to us.
[Off-record discussion.]
STATEMENT OF LOUIS LEO KAPLAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
SYLVESTER S. GARFIELD)
Mr. Schine. Would you state your name for the record,
please?
Mr. Kaplan. Louis Leo Kaplan.
Mr. Schine. Will your counsel please give his name?
Mr. Garfield. Sylvester S. Garfield.
Mr. Schine. And the name of your firm?
Mr. Garfield. Gross, Garfield, Redbank, 29 Mechanic Street,
Redbank, New Jersey.
Mr. Schine. How do you spell your last name?
Mr. Garfield. G-a-r-f-i-e-l-d.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Kaplan, what is your current occupation?
Mr. Kaplan. I have been suspended from the Signal Corps
Engineering Laboratory.
Mr. Schine. When were you suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. The 20th at about 1:20 in the afternoon.
Mr. Schine. 1953?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes.
Mr. Schine. How long had you been employed there?
Mr. Kaplan. Eleven and one half years, since April 1942.
Mr. Schine. What department.
Mr. Kaplan. Thermionics Branch.
Mr. Schine. Could you tell us briefly what your duties
consist of?
Mr. Kaplan. Group leader of three groups, one mechanic
group, one group specializing in planar iron tubes. The other
group did what amounted to qualification approval testing of
receiving tubes.
Mr. Schine. Was this classified material?
Mr. Kaplan. Almost all of it was not.
Mr. Schine. But some of it was.
Mr. Kaplan. In the past year or so there has been some.
Mr. Schine. Were you cleared for classified work?
Mr. Kaplan. I was cleared up to secret.
Mr. Schine. Where did you go to college?
Mr. Kaplan. Brooklyn College.
Mr. Schine. When did you first go to work for the
government?
Mr. Kaplan. April 1942.
Mr. Schine. For the Signal Corps?
Mr. Kaplan. Same position.
Mr. Schine. Before that?
Mr. Kaplan. Silver Holloware.
Mr. Schine. Now, what was your position there?
Mr. Kaplan. Supervisor of the assembly department. We did a
certain amount of electrical engineering and some safety work.
A generalized story.
Mr. Schine. Have you any ideas as to why you were
suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, sir.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us why?
Mr. Kaplan. I believe I have been confused with another
Louis Kaplan whose wife's name is identical to my wife's and
who has been plagued with me since 1942.
Mr. Schine. Would you tell us about this other Louis
Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. Do you want me to go back to 1942?
Mr. Schine. Yes.
Mr. Kaplan. In 1942, approximately a week after I got to
the laboratories, I was notified that I was being transferred
to Dayton, Ohio. This happened three times. Each time the
orders were rescinded. I found at that time that there was
another Louis Kaplan employed by the laboratories.
Mr. Schine. Was this Signal Corps?
Mr. Kaplan. Signal Corps Engineering Laboratory. Oh, I
guess it was a year later the other Kaplan came back from
Dayton and picked up my check and gave me another fit; claimed
that the check had been cashed, a few odds and ends. Finally,
about a week later, I got it back again. At that time and up
until this time I have not been known as Louis Kaplan but Leo.
At that time, at the request of personnel group at the
laboratories I adopted Leo as my middle name.
About two years later, maybe a little bit longer than that,
there were rumblings about a lot of confusion between the
records of myself and this other chap and Major Gothney, then
branch chief of the Thermionics Branch and who had previously
been in personnel, requested the then personnel to go through
the records, 201 files, at which time they found six or eight
items misfiled between files. Each file having about six items
wrongly filed. The most outstanding error was that I had signed
both patent releases.
I understand that we are both products of the New York
school system and the handwriting is very much alike, although
I imagine it can be told apart by somebody who knows what he is
doing. We went through the files and cleared them up to my best
knowledge.
I'd say in late 1944, after I was married, I attempted to
get in a rooming house development in Ashbury Park. I was
refused the thing because there was not enough room. However,
in visiting friends of ours down there I did meet Mrs. Ruth
Kaplan, and found out my wife's name was the same.
Mr. Schine. Have you ever had any contact with the other
Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. None whatsoever. That was the sole contact I
had with him.
Mr. Schine. Did you know he was a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Kaplan. It has been--well, let's put it this way: He
has published a number of things in the Ashbury Park Press,
letters to the editor, and they definitely had a flavor of
communism.
Mr. Schine. Did you ever save any of these letters to the
editor?
Mr. Kaplan. No, but I checked with the Ashbury Park Press
and they have the originals all on file with them at the
request of the FBI. I have been, I wouldn't say accused, that I
was writing these particular letters and in discussing this
with Wayne McMurray, who happens to be the editor of the
Ashbury Park Press, he promised me he would always put in the
address of this individual when he published anything. Mr.
McMurray offered to put a scribe in the newspaper, which at the
request of the commanding officer at Fort Monmouth I didn't do,
that there were two Kaplans. I tried to remain as anonymous as
possible, realizing I had a position in the laboratory of some
trust.
Mr. Schine. Where did you meet Mrs. Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. I met her in Washington Village.
Mr. Schine. Whose apartment?
Mr. Kaplan. Abraham Lapato's apartment. I don't know what
the number was at the time. It was right next to the Kaplans.
Mr. Schine. They lived right next to the Kaplans. Were they
good friends?
Mr. Kaplan. I don't think so.
Mr. Schine. Do you recall the names of individuals who Mrs.
Kaplan was very friendly with?
Mr. Kaplan. I don't know. I never met him. I know he had a
brother-in-law in the laboratory.
Mr. Schine. What was his brother-in-law's name?
Mr. Kaplan. I am sorry. I am awfully bad at names.
Mr. Schine. Could you find out that name?
Mr. Kaplan. I am sure I can.
Mr. Schine. Would you try and do that for us?
Mr. Kaplan. How could I get the information to you?
Mr. Schine. When do you think you can have the information?
Mr. Kaplan. I can tell you right now what happened--give
you the remainder of the story and that will include the other
chap.
In 1947 I learned that I was being investigated very
thoroughly by Army G-2. A Captain Freedman was checking every
one of the references that I had given until he finally covered
all of my acquaintances. It seems as if the primary objective
was after information about my wife more so than they were
about me. There were many of my friends who had not met my
wife. We were married after I left New York and they supplied
as much as they could. I knew that I was being investigated.
However, the thing seemed to have died out and I heard nothing
more about it.
One day I was discussing this thing with a friend in the
cafeteria, a Lt. Art Skinner, now back at the laboratory, then
adjutant, and he kidded me about not telling the whole story. I
said, ``What is the whole story?'' He said, ``How you were
canned.'' I said, ``What is the rest of the story?'' I got
worried. I said, ``What is behind this?'' An order had come
through at the close of the investigation to let Louis Kaplan
go, but the other Louis Kaplan who worked at the time in the
Standards Agency, in the meantime had resigned, and being the
only Louis Kaplan, I was supposedly let go. However, Lt.
Skinner discussed it with army G-2 and the orders were
rescinded.
At that time the brother-in-law, who was a mathematician,
was let go from the service. I am trying to think what group he
was in. He was----
Mr. Schine. He was working for Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Kaplan. He was in the agency and let go at that time.
Since 1947 I have had the shirt kidded off me about Lou
Kaplan, not realizing I lived in Belmore. I have lived in
Belmore except for a period of nine months since I came to the
laboratory, since October of 1942. I have lived in Belmore
since then and no where else.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any other reason why you might
have been suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. Honestly, no.
Mr. Schine. Can you think of any organizations you have
been affiliated with?
Mr. Kaplan. I have never joined any organization I
considered subversive. I consider myself a violent anti-
Communist. I have argued with people until I have been blue in
the face. That was before I came to the laboratory.
Mr. Schine. You never subscribed to any petitions?
Mr. Kaplan. I never signed any petitions, Oxford Pledge,
Stockholm Pledge or anything of that sort. Never went along
with them. Never had any feeling for them.
Mr. Schine. Did your wife ever have any connection?
Mr. Kaplan. No, my wife is an extreme homebody. She worked
for the Universal Camera Company before the war. That was her
first and last job.
Mr. Schine. Does she have any relatives who are Communists?
Mr. Kaplan. None she knows of.
Mr. Schine. Any Communist connections?
Mr. Kaplan. None we know of.
Mr. Schine. She never belonged to any subversive
organizations?
Mr. Kaplan. None whatsoever. She is not a joiner except
religious organizations.
Mr. Schine. We certainly appreciate your coming over. You
are going to give us the name of the brother-in-law of the
other Kaplan.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't it Sokel?
Mr. Kaplan. Sokel.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever known any Communists?
Mr. Kaplan. Back in 1937, I don't remember the chaps name.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Kaplan. No.
Mr. Cohn. Has your wife?
Mr. Kaplan. No.
Mr. Cohn. No affiliation whatsoever with anything
Communistic?
Mr. Kaplan. I did know a Communist back in the place I
worked, in Continental Silver Company, now located at 68 33rd
Street in Brooklyn in the Terminal Building. They had a chap
working there. We had violent arguments. I will never forget
once I was coming back from an interview at the Ford Instrument
Company, wherein I was to be employed if everything worked out.
I was one of three, of course, as inspector for the navy. At
this point the interviewing officer, a navy officer and I
forget his name, asked me if I ever signed the Oxford Pledge in
college. I came back and mentioned this to that chap. I said,
``I am sure now you can't get a job with the government. Didn't
you sign the Oxford Pledge?'' He said he never signed it. I
said, ``Well, didn't you take it around to be signed?'' He
started to laugh and it never went any further. That was the
other fellow. This was one example. He and I were continuously
in arguments. After the place unionized there was a question of
all supervisor going into the union. They didn't want me. He
and his brother-in-law were afraid of me.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name? The one that was a Communist?
Mr. Kaplan. Harry. Again I say my memory on names is very
poor. He worked in this company from 1938, approximately, and
there there after I left for awhile. In 1942, I left there and
came right with the company.
Mr. Schine. Mr. Kaplan, of course our committee is
interested in obtaining information on government departments
and agencies' efficiency, that means efficiency in both
directions. Therefore, we would be just as much concerned with
the firing of a capable person unjustly as we would be
interested in the retention of one who was a security risk.
Mr. Kaplan. If you want to build some morale, check my case
rapidly. I think it will help considerably.
Mr. Schine. You have our assurance that we will get Mr.
Adams, counselor to the Department of Army, to check on this
matter and it is going to be resolved very quickly.
Mr. Kaplan. I met Mrs. Kaplan not in the home but outside
the home of Lapato.
Mr. Cohn. At that time the Communist Louis Kaplan lived
next door?
Mr. Kaplan. That is right. Mr. Lapato and I worked
together. We worked together for ten years.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any Communists at Fort Monmouth now?
Mr. Kaplan. I can assure you if I had, I'd be the first to
come in here and tell you about it.
Mr. Cohn. You do not?
Mr. Kaplan. Definitely not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any contact with the other
Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. Never.
Mr. Cohn. How about the other Mrs. Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. The answer to that you have.
Mr. Schine. Thank you very much.
Mr. Kaplan. Mr. Cohn, I feel a whole lot better right now.
If you need me again----
Mr. Schine. Let the record show that Mr. Cohn will preside
for the rest of the afternoon because I have to talk to some
witnesses out of the hearing room.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
STATEMENT OF CARL GREENBLUM
Mr. Cohn. Is there anything you told us the last time you
want to add to first?
Mr. Greenblum. Well, when I was here the last time I was in
a somewhat distressed state.
Mr. Cohn. What I wondered is this: Have you recalled, with
the help of the FBI any names you could not recall when down
here the last time?
Mr. Greenblum. I have gone over this thing in great detail
with the FBI. I have gone into a tremendous amount of detail
with them. I can't think, at the moment, of any additional
information.
Mr. Cohn. How about these people like Fred, Lucille, Leo?
Mr. Greenblum. I haven't been able to place them.
Mr. Cohn. Who do you recall being present in the restaurant
in New York where Levitsky took you?
Mr. Greenblum. Well, with great assuredness I recall Perl.
I am fairly certain that he was there.
Mr. Cohn. How about the two other couples? How about Barr?
and Sarant?
Mr. Greenblum. After thinking it over, I doubt if Barr was.
I discussed the timing of this thing with the FBI and they seem
to think Barr was probably not there.
[Off-record discussion.]
STATEMENT OF SHERROD EAST
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your name for the record?
Mr. East. Sherrod East.
Mr. Cohn. And where do you live, Mr. East?
Mr. East. Falls Church, Virginia, 316 East Greenway
Boulevard.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mr. East. I am by profession an archivist, Chief
Departmental Records Branch of the Adjutant General's Office.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you stationed?
Mr. East. Alexandria, Virginia.
Mr. Cohn. How many men do you have working under you?
Mr. East. One hundred and forty-six civilians and seventeen
military detail. The military doesn't work for civilians except
special circumstances.
Mr. Cohn. What is your salary?
Mr. East. GS-16, $9,600.00 a year.
Mr. Cohn. That is gross?
Mr. East. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
employed with the Department of the Army?
Mr. East. Ten years. As of December 1 it will be ten years
exactly.
Mr. Cohn. What positions have you held in the Department of
the Army?
Mr. East. I was hired in December, 1943, from National
Archives----
Mr. Cohn. Who got you the job?
Mr. East. I don't know that anybody got me my job. I was
hired, I presume----
Mr. Cohn. Who hired you?
Mr. East. Well, the chief of the branch into which I was
hired was then Hugh M. Flick.
Mr. Cohn. Whom did you see about getting the job?
Mr. East. Well, they came, to me.
Mr. Cohn. Who?
Mr. East. Captain Flick.
Mr. Cohn. Did he come to you cold?
Mr. East. No; he knew of me by reputation. He had known of
me before I came in the army as an archivist for the State of
New York. Also, another member of National Archives staff who
had gone into the army records program knew me.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been an archivist during your entire
period with the army?
Mr. East. During my entire period with the army I have been
in work that calls for that MOS, as we would say in the
military.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any dealings with the loyalty
board? \6\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\6\ A memorandum regarding Sherrod East, from Thomas W. LaVenia to
Francis P. Carr, October 30, 1953, stated:
Subject is a member of the Greenbelt Housing Association and the
Greenbelt Health Association, the latter has been found to be
Communist-dominated. He was instrumental in the appointment of Dr.
Samuel Berenberg as a member of the Board of the Health Association.
The Dr. is a known Communist sympathizer and is reported to be a member
of the Communist party. The Dr. also had Communist literature in his
home.
Subject is a close associate of Abraham Chasanow, a member of the
National Lawyers Guild who was suspended on July 30, 1953, from his
position as Director of the District Control Office at the U.S. Navy
Hydrographic Office as a result of security charges. Subject is also a
close friend and former co-employee of Thurman Wilkens, a former War
Department employee who was dropped from the rolls as a security risk
because he was an associate of Samuel Witzcak, who was mentioned as a
member of the Canadian Spy Ring on the atomic bomb. Subject stated in
the presence of witnesses that Witzcak should have fought the charges
against him because he saw nothing wrong in it. In 1941-1942 subject
had a lawn party at his home to raise funds for the Spanish Loyalists.
It is suggested that subject be asked if he was an associate of and
friendly with Max H. Salzman who resigned July 31, 1953, from the U.S.
Navy Hydrographic Office while under charges involving security.
Subject is a member of the Panel from which the Security Screening
Board of the Department of the Army is drawn. He has for several years
sat on that board until very recently when he was not called up from
the Panel.
The derogatory information contained in this memorandum is known to
G-2 and is part of the subject's official file. None of this derogatory
information was made known to the Secretary of the Army. The
appointment to the Panel and to the board is made by the Secretary of
the Army.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In what respect?
Mr. East. In February of 1952 I was informed that I had
been chosen to be representative of my agency on the loyalty
screening board panel. I received, in April 1952, notification
of my designation as a member of the loyalty screening board
panel, who is designated by the secretary of the army.
Mr. Cohn. 1952?
Mr. East. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have access to classified material?
Mr. East. Have I ever had? Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, for how long a period of time did you serve
in any capacity on the screening board?
Mr. East. From April 1952 until, I think, the last panel I
sat on was along in February or March of 1953. I have not sat
on a panel since February or March 1953.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been eligible to sit on the panel since
that time?
Mr. East. I have never been informed that I was not still a
member of the screening panel.
Mr. Cohn. You have not been designated to sit on any
specific----
Mr. East. But I have not been called on a panel, no, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What are the general term or duties of this
loyalty screening board?
Mr. East. Well, the loyalty screening board sitting as a
panel considers cases referred to them through channels. They
make recommendations to the secretary of the army as to the
apparent justification for preferring charges or not preferring
charges.
Mr. Cohn. Where does the board get its information from?
Mr. East. Different armies. First Army, Second Army--I am
assuming this is all right to speak on procedural matters.
Mr. Adams. I see no reason why not.
Mr. Cohn. Where do they get the information?
Mr. East. The information is in the form of investigative
reports prepared by investigative agencies, and they are
forwarded with recommendations of the echelons through which
the recommendation----
Mr. Cohn. Where do these recommendations originate? Give us
a typical case. Where does a case start?
Mr. East. Well, a case could start at an installation, or a
case could start at higher echelons. If, I assume, information
came to higher echelons there was a reason.
Mr. Cohn. How would your board get a case? Where would it
come from?
Mr. East. As far as the panel, it comes from--it is
assigned by the permanent secretariat of the board, the loyalty
screening board. We didn't select cases. We were called
together and assigned to certain cases.
Mr. Cohn. How would the secretariat get the cases?
Mr. East. Those are referred through channels to the
secretary of the army's screening board.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, see if I am right; if a case
initiates at Fort Monmouth, of derogatory information, the
initial question is whether or not the secretary should suspend
the individual, or prefer charges----
Mr. East. The individual may already be suspended for that,
matter,
Mr. Cohn. In other words, he is already suspended or there
might be grounds on which to suspend him, and the files go to
the secretariat, who parcels them out to different panels. The
panel considers it and makes recommendations as to what action
the secretary of the army should take?
Mr. East. That is essentially right.
Mr. Cohn. Did you participate in any cases of employees in
the Army Signal Corps? I am not asking you names.
Mr. East. Well, I have participated in a number of
installations, and a number of agencies, and I believe that I
am precluded from going any further than that in answering a
question as to places of cases or not.
Mr. Cohn. I am not asking him to reveal individual cases. I
am only asking him if he has had any from the Signal Corps.
What do you think?
Mr. East. I have sat on panels that have considered cases
from a number of agencies and I believe I have handled cases
that originated in the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. Now, I will ask you this next question. I want to
ask you whether you recall names in the Signal Corps. I am not
going to ask you for names. Do you recall----
Mr. East. I would not be able to answer if I did recall. I
could assure you that if I were able to answer I do not recall
any names.
Mr. Cohn. Your recollection would have to be refreshed?
Mr. East. Yes, it certainly would. I would like to say in
these panels I sat on, I tried to give them everything I had
then. At least, I tried to make it a point not to retain
information as to specific cases or names.
Mr. Cohn. Now, during the entire time you have been in the
Department of Army you have had full clearance?
Mr. East. As far as I know, yes.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, Mr. East, I think this is a matter of
open regulation, what is the standard you used on the board in
making a recommendation to the secretary? Were you looking for
security risks, loyalty?
Mr. East. Well, I don't pretend to be a specialist in
procedure or any of this. I haven't sat on enough panels. I
suppose people doing this a lot longer than I--of course, there
are different types of cases involving loyalty cases, involving
security risks that don't involve loyalty.
Mr. Cohn. In a case involving a security risk, the
objective of the panel is to look over the file and to make a
determination as to whether or not that individual, based on
his activities, associates, the sum total of it, is or is not a
security risk?
Mr. East. We are briefed by the permanent secretariat of
the board to determine what category of cases we are to handle.
We are supposed to know, of course, by the information or
material given to us to study what category the case falls
into. If it is a security case, we evaluate the facts,
activities of the individual, background, associates and decide
whether or not he is a security risk, depending on what he
does, what degree of classified matter he may handle, etc. And
we, of course, have to start off with the proposition that if
he is found to be a security risk he should not be employed in
any job.
Mr. Cohn. In any job where he could do damage?
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Of course, and I suppose in loyalty cases, the
test in recent years, if there is reasonable doubt as to the
loyalty of an individual, he is not to be employed by the army
at all.
Mr. East. That is right. I would like to make a point. I
have handled no cases since the change in procedure, if I
remember, as of May of this year when there was a little change
I am not familiar with.
Mr. Cohn. You mean since the Eisenhower directive?
Mr. East. I have not been on any board since.
Mr. Cohn. Have you, yourself, ever been connected with
Greenbelt Housing or Health Association?
Mr. East. Those are two organizations.
Mr. Cohn. Let's take Greenbelt Health?
Mr. East. Yes, I was at one time a member of the board of
directors of the Greenbelt Health Association and a member of
it.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. East. I was a member of that organization from about
1948 when it was formed, shortly after the town of Greenbelt
was opened, until about 1942 or 1943 during the war. I severed
my connection with it, withdrew my membership from it.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have any connection with the Greenbelt
Housing Association?
Mr. East. I was one of the organizers of the Greenbelt
Housing Association and served on the board of directors of the
Greenbelt Mutual Home Owner's Corporation, which eventually
bought the town of Greenbelt.
However, that took place after I left the community. From
1945 I worked quite diligently in the community to try to
effect the sale of the community to a Veteran Resident
Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. Now, was this Greenbelt Health Association under
Communist domination or heavily infiltrated by Communists?
Mr. East. I don't think so. I never thought so.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard that alleged?
Mr. East. Not specifically, no, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard that alleged unspecifically?
Mr. East. Well, I know that there were some people perhaps
connected with the health association at one time who some
people have since assumed--the thing, I thought, was never
Communist dominated. That was a consumer-controlled health
organization.
Now, there was a doctor perhaps connected with the
association at one time who I can understand, looking back,
might have been considered to be a sympathizer. I don't think
he was a Communist. I think, looking back now, that his wife
may have been but at the time there was certainly no----
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a Dr. Samuel Berenberg?
Mr. East. Yes, sir. He is the doctor I referred to.
Mr. Cohn. What is his wife's name?
Mr. East. His wife's name, I believe, was Frederica Martin
Berenberg.
Mr. Cohn. Was Dr. Berenberg a pretty well-known Communist
sympathizer?
Mr. East. As I say, looking back I think he was.
Mr. Cohn. What was his connection with the health
association?
Mr. East. He was one of the three doctors hired by the
association to practice medicine.
Mr. Cohn. Did you in your official capacity have anything
to do with his employment?
Mr. East. Not originally. It does happen I was on the
board. He was in Greenbelt two different times. It does happen
I was on the board when he was hired the second time. He had
left the first time to go to the Pribilof Islands to work for
the Department of Interior. When the war came on the Pribilofs
were evacuated, I believe, and Greenbelt was without a
physician. We were very anxious to get one doctor and they were
very scarce. He was available and I was on the board that hired
him back.
Mr. Cohn. Who contacted him and asked him to come back?
Mr. East. I don't know whether I had a hand in it or not. I
may well have. I can't answer specifically yes or no. I don't
remember what my official position was but I think I was
president, therefore, I may well have written or answered a
letter which he wrote us letting us know he was available.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. East, did you know at that time that Dr.
Berenberg was a Communist?
Mr. East. I certainly did not.
Mr. Cohn. Had he ever said anything to lead you to believe
he was?
Mr. East. Only to this extent. He left about 1939 and up
until that time it had never entered my head that he was a
Communist sympathizer. I observed later that his attitude
towards the war was quite different after he came back from the
Pribilofs.
Mr. Cohn. During the Hitler-Stalin Pact he was not as
anxious to have the United States go in?
Mr. East. That is my distinct impression, yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know he was circulating Communist
literature?
Mr. East. He never circulated any to me. He would have
known, I hope, better.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Abraham
Chasanow?
Mr. East. Yes, sir. I know him quite well. That is, I know
him quite well in that both of us lived twelve or thirteen
years in the same community and worked for the same
organizations.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him socially?
Mr. East. Casually. We were not close friends in the sense
that our families saw each other frequently or any thing of
that kind.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever in his home?
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he ever in yours?
Mr. East. Yes, sir. I am sure he has been over a period of
thirteen years but I am sure not frequently.
Mr. Cohn. When did you see Mr. Chasanow last, by the way?
Mr. East. As far as I know I have not seen him since I
moved from Greenbelt in June of 1951.
Mr. Cohn. Have you spoken with him?
Mr. East. I have not talked to him on the phone or
otherwise since then as far as I know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. East. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist sympathizer?
Mr. East. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In any of your discussions with him----
Mr. East. Never by any slight indication, act or word.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any members of the National Lawyer's
Guild?
Mr. East. No, sir. I knew he was a lawyer. I don't know
what fraternal or legal organizations he might have belonged
to.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Thermond
Wilkens?
Mr. East. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. How well did you know Mr. Wilkens?
Mr. East. I knew Mr. Wilkens quite well.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him socially?
Mr. East. Only casually.
Mr. Cohn. You both worked together at the War Department?
Mr. East. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever in his home?
Mr. East. No, sir. He is a bachelor and he didn't have a
home. He only had a room.
Mr. Cohn. Was he ever in your home?
Mr. East. Yes. Not frequently, however.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you ever know a man by the name of
Samuel Witzcak?
Mr. East. Never.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that Wilkens knew him?
Mr. East. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. There came a time when you found out?
Mr. East. I have heard the name mentioned since Mr. Wilkens
left the War Department in conversations with security officers
in the department.
Mr. Cohn. You have been advised of the fact that Mr.
Witzcak was a member of the Canadian atomic spy ring?
Mr. East. I learned that for the first time.
Mr. Cohn. I assume you have been advised he was a close
associate of Mr. Wilkens?
Mr. East. I was advised of that within the last six months,
yes, sir. I never knew it before that time.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Wilkens was suspended was he not?
Mr. East. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did he discuss his suspension with you?
Mr. East. I was, of course--in the sense that I was working
in the same office.
Mr. Cohn. When was this?
Mr. East. It was either in late 1947 or prior to June of
1948. In that six months period.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever advise him that he should fight the
suspension because there was nothing wrong with him having
associated with Witzcak?
Mr. East. Bear in mind that the name Witzcak was never
known to me until six months ago--in the last six months. At
the time Mr. Wilkens was suspended, I, of course, was aware of
the published regulations informing employees of their rights
in such matters, and knowing nothing whatsoever about the case,
I was amazed that he did not take advantage of it, at least
insofar as I know. That is why, I presume, he did not take
advantage of his privilege of appeal of his separation.
Mr. Cohn. You knew that the grounds for his suspension was
his close association with----
Mr. East. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Why did you think he was suspended?
Mr. East. I understand that he had been during the war
approached by an agent and that he did not report the approach.
That is what he told me about it.
I would like to make it clear that insofar as Wilkens is
concerned, it is apparent now that Wilkens knew what the
trouble was he was in but the rest of us did not. He knew how
deep he was in; the rest of us did not, and he deliberately
avoided telling us or bringing any of us into it, probably out
of a feeling that he did not want any of us to be implicated,
so that he told me very little and I certainly did not inquire,
did not want to know any more about it than he was willing to
tell. The fact that he was suspended and he did not choose to
avail himself of his prerogatives, I did not understand why
that was.
Mr. Cohn. Getting back a minute to the doctor, when was it
the doctor went back to Greenbelt? When did you re-employ Dr.
Berenberg at Greenbelt?
Mr. East. Well, it must have been fairly early in 1942, to
the best of my recollection.
Mr. Cohn. How long did he remain?
Mr. East. He did not remain very long. He was not popular.
Mr. Cohn. About how long?
Mr. East. I really would almost hesitate to hazard a guess.
I would say less than a year. I just don't know whether it was
a little under or over.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have anything to do with his leaving?
Mr. East. I believe that I had resigned--no, I think I was
still on the board when he left. I didn't have anything to do
with his leaving in that I invited him to leave. He resigned of
his own free will, except we had one other physician at the
time and they did not get along and I assume that is one of the
reasons.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man by the name of Max Salzman?
Mr. East. Yes, sir, substantially the same way, the same
connection, the housing association in Greenbelt, as Chasanow.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that Salzman was a Communist or
Communist sympathizer?
Mr. East. No, sir. In no way, shape, manner, or form did I
ever suspect that he had any such leanings whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see Mr. Salzman?
Mr. East. I last saw Mr. Salzman in June of 1951.
Mr. Cohn. Had you known him socially?
Mr. East. Not even as much as I knew Chasanow.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you, yourself, ever give a lawn party
for the benefit of the Spanish Loyalists?
Mr. East. No, I did not.
I was living in a farm house instead of right in the town
of Greenbelt and I allowed my premises to be used by Mrs.
Berenberg to hold such a benefit for Spanish refugees. She had
been a nurse with the Spanish Loyalists.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. East. I am afraid I can't fix the date exactly. I think
that it was sometime in 1949 or 1950 but I don't know for sure.
Mr. Cohn. Did you attend that party?
Mr. East. Well, I didn't attend as a guest but I was there
since I allowed it to be held on my premises.
Mr. Cohn. Under the auspices of what organization?
Mr. East. I did not know it was held under the auspices of
any organization and still don't if it was. She simply said she
would like to do something, having been in Spain, she said she
would like to do something for the Spanish refugees. As far as
I knew it was a personal thing with her.
Mr. Cohn. Now, let me ask you this, Mr. East. Based on the
facts we have gone over here in connection with your
appointment of Dr. Berenberg and your associations with other
people, would you have considered yourself a good security
risk?
Mr. East. I most certainly would have then and I would now.
Mr. Cohn. In connection with some of the cases you passed
on on the loyalty board--I am not asking you for any names or
about any individuals, but in what percentage of cases you
passed on where the allegation was Communist activities did you
recommend suspension?
Mr. East. I don't know. I mean Communist activities is a
very broad term. I have no idea but all I know is that I acted
on some cases where we did recommend some suspensions. I acted
on a greater number where I did not recommend suspension. When
I say I acted, I acted as a member of the panel.
Mr. Cohn. Isn't it a matter of fact that you recommended
against suspension in the vast majority of cases?
Mr. East. [To Mr. Adams] Well, is that legitimate?
Mr. Cohn. Mr. East, taking everything you say here at face
value today, I think it still might suggest that one who was
fooled as you were by Communist and Communist sympathizers
might not be in a position to evaluate these cases with
understanding and perspicacity. For instance, suppose the case
of Dr. Berenberg and Mrs. Berenberg had come up. They
apparently fooled you once, you according to your own statement
and you might have an unfortunate result if those and other
people were in sensitive positions.
Mr. East. They did not fool me in the sense you are using
the term. Secondly, Berenberg was hired as a doctor. He was a
good one no matter what his political complexion was then, now
or ever was, and his position as a doctor was certainly not a
sensitive position, and I resent, if I may say so, the
implication that I can't judge when a man's political
complexion, if political is the right word, has a bearing on
his duties.
As I say, I saw, and I said this earlier in the testimony,
I saw the change in Berenberg after the attack of Germany was
abandoned, of the Russian-German pact and attack on Russia. As
a matter of fact, I used to bait the man. That was one of the
reasons he would never consider giving me any literature, if he
was passing out literature. He knew dag-gum well where I stood.
Mr. Cohn. Are you saying now that in exercising your
position you knowingly employed a Communist doctor?
Mr. East. One, I did not know and do not know now is a
Communist. I recognized a sympathy there and I also made it
quite clear that the town needed a doctor and one of the
reasons I resigned from the board was that I didn't want the
town to go without a doctor. It might have had I stayed on the
board. It so happened that the doctor who was left after
Berenberg left simply didn't want to work in a consumer health
organization. He wanted a private practice and I had a trust,
as a matter of fact, to live up to because the government had
granted a monopoly of medical practice in Greenbelt to the
Greenbelt Health Association and I could not allow an
individual doctor to make use of that in setting himself up in
private practice in a monopoly situation. In that case I had a
responsibility not only to the community but I had a
responsibility to the government.
Mr. Cohn. Did you disclose to the community and the
government your knowledge of the Communist sympathies of this
Dr. Berenberg?
Mr. East. They were not an issue at the time. If that
situation were repeated today, it would be different, I think,
than it was at that time. The fact remains that Berenberg's
feelings or views towards Russia or communism were not a factor
as far as his medical practice in Greenbelt was concerned.
Mr. Cohn. Were there a good many government employees
living at Greenbelt?
Mr. East. There always has been a high percentage.
Mr. Cohn. And a lot of them would be in sensitive
positions? Would you agree on that?
Mr. East. Greenbelt is a low-income community. I don't know
how sensitive their positions were. I think we might assume
taking that large a group of government employees you would
have a good many in sensitive positions, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Would you note on the record that following the
off-record discussion I suggested to Mr. Adams and to Mr. East
in regard to the information in the possession of the committee
that in the overwhelming majority of cases passed on by Mr.
East as a member of the secretary's screening board, in an
overwhelming majority of cases where charges were Communist
activity or Communist affiliation Mr. East had voted against
suspension. I asked Mr. East to confirm that information for us
and he raised the point concerning the regulations which Mr.
Adams supported, at least to the extent that he felt the matter
should be put to the secretary first to determine whether or
not it would be violative of the executive order, the Truman
blackout order, protecting various steps of their procedure.
Mr. East stated as far as he was concerned he would personally
be perfectly willing to have the committee examine each one of
the cases which he passed on and his vote.
Mr. East. I didn't quite say it that way. I said I was
perfectly willing to give the committee an answer to the
question you raised.
Mr. Cohn. Would you be willing to go further and discuss
individual cases?
Mr. East. I am precluded----
Mr. Cohn. I am assuming the secretary would be willing to
waive that.
Mr. East. If the secretary is willing, I'd love to come in
and talk about each case to show how right I was.
Mr. Adams. The secretary will not permit this individual or
any other individual who is a member of the screening board or
a hearing board or appeals board to discuss anything about any
case or his pattern of decision on any cases because the
secretary not only has the obligation to protect the loyalty
and security procedures and program but to protect the rights
of each individual whose case was considered, so this
individual, in my opinion, has no right to waive that
responsibility.
[Off-record discussion.]
Mr. Cohn. On the record, as far as that is concerned, I
think the attitude of the committee on the rights of
individuals is crystal clear as was evidenced by an individual
case which took place this afternoon when the committee joined
with Mr. Adams and asked the reinstatement of an individual
where it might have been a case of mistaken identity.
I will further say that this committee has been confronted
with evidence of suspensions of a number of people with long
records of Communist activities and affiliation and the
reversal of that suspension by the screening board and panel
that Mr. East sat on, and combining that with Mr. East's
testimony here today concerning his knowingly or unknowingly,
and the record speaks for itself, taking answers at face value,
his connection with people who were Communist sympathizers or
Communists, as the case might be, I think in view of that that
the American people are entitled to protection in this matter
because some of these individuals concerned might still be in
positions by virtue of Mr. East's vote in their cases, and I
think this is a grave abuse of the intent of these directives
when an issue such as this is raised.
I am certainly going to recommend to the committee, and Mr.
Carr just told me he agrees with me on that, that the committee
press its position in regard to this situation.
Mr. Adams. I think this is a matter of protecting the
integrity of the whole loyalty system, the individuals and the
program.
Mr. East. Of course, I am very much disturbed that anyone
would take this situation that developed in the community which
I lived and tie it together with my supposed actions on the
loyalty screening board, and assume from that that I have a
softness for Communists or Communist activities or Communist
affiliated organizations.
In view of the statement you have made, I wish to make a
categorical statement now that I do not so consider myself, and
that disturbs me a great deal as you can well appreciate. I
consider myself qualified, otherwise I would not have accepted
the responsibility. I know, even with all the protection the
secretary is giving us, in these matters, I know a man is only
asking for trouble when he accepts this kind of extraneous
duty. All of us on these loyalty boards have our hands full
doing the job for which we are being paid and it is out of a
sense of duty that we are willing to accept these additional
responsibilities.
Mr. Cohn. Right. I might say on that score, Mr. East, I
understand your position. I think you can also understand the
committee's position. We have been confronted with a series of
cases, suspensions, and I have personally read the record where
the suspensions were upheld at various steps along the line,
and then the suspensions were reversed, recommended to the
secretary that they be reversed. I will say that the actions of
the screening board and some of its panels, each one of the
cases that I have read is something which defies explanation--
in cases where they recommended reinstatement.
Mr. East. Are you speaking in terms of the present
standards?
Mr. Cohn. I am speaking in terms of the standards under
which the case was reviewed. I am speaking of any standards
which ever existed. Cases where you directed reinstatement to
positions dealing with top secret material of people with
uncontroverted evidence in the record of Communist affiliation,
disloyalty to objectives of the United States government, and I
would certainly say, Mr. East, that you are certainly entitled
to any opinion you might want to have about anything.
If the information this committee has received concerning
the consistent pattern of your evaluation of individual's cases
is correct, and combine that with your willingness to appoint a
doctor with Communist sympathies in a community in which
resided government employees in sensitive positions and give
him free access to them and the opportunity to develop
acquaintances and abuse that position, if he sought to do so, I
think the matter is of the utmost importance to the committee
to get the facts.
I am hopeful that the secretary of the army, in fairness to
you and in fairness to us, will allow a thorough review of this
entire matter. Don't you think so, Frank?
Mr. Carr. I think so.
Mr. Cohn. I might say further, Mr. East, we have had a
situation where loyalty board and loyalty panels in other
government agencies have cleared people the FBI has furnished
incontrovertible evidence of Communist party membership and
when the people were called before this committee and question
about Communist activities claimed the Fifth Amendment. That
situation is very alarming. I think it is something that we
have to go into.
Mr. East. I say now that I think I acted properly on any
cases that came before me, and I thought so at the time the
case was before me on the basis of evidence present, and I--I
think that is sufficient on that. As I say, I have done the
best job I know how to do.
STATEMENT OF JACOB KAPLAN
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name for the record?
Mr. Kaplan. Jacob Kaplan.
Mr. Cohn. Are you presently employed at Monmouth?
Mr. Kaplan. I was until two weeks ago.
Mr. Cohn. Were you suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. I was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. Were you given a letter of charges?
Mr. Kaplan. I was given a letter of suspension with no
charges.
Mr. Cohn. What did they tell you?
Mr. Kaplan. That the charges would be submitted later,
twelve to fourteen days. They said the charges would be
submitted in twelve to fourteen days. I have not received that
as yet.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know of any reason why you were suspended?
Mr. Kaplan. I have not the remotest idea.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any Communist connections?
Mr. Kaplan. Never.
Mr. Cohn. Ever belonged to any Communist organizations?
Mr. Kaplan. Never in my life.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever associated with any Communists?
Mr. Kaplan. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you employed?
Mr. Kaplan. Countermeasures Branch at Evans Signal Corps,
assistant branch chief.
Mr. Cohn. Who is the branch chief?
Mr. Kaplan. Morris Kaiser.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know a man by the name of William
Saltzman?
Mr. Kaplan. No. I have heard of him. I don't know him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mr. William Johnstone Jones?
Mr. Kaplan. I don't know him either. I have heard of him.
Mr. Cohn. Barry Bernstein?
Mr. Kaplan. Yes, I know Mr. Bernstein.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever a member of the American Veterans
Committee?
Mr. Kaplan. I am not a veteran and I didn't belong to any
veterans' organizations.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a member of the Great Books Club?
Mr. Kaplan. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Mr. Bernstein socially?
Mr. Kaplan. Well, I know him to speak to.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been in his home?
Mr. Kaplan. Once. My daughter used to be friendly with his
daughter and I went to pick her up.
Mr. Cohn. You have never been known as Louie Kaplan?
Mr. Kaplan. No.
Mr. Cohn. Maybe they are suspending everybody with the name
of Kaplan.
Mr. Kaplan. That is what it seems like to me.
Mr. Cohn. That will be all for the time being, Mr. Kaplan.
STATEMENT OF JAMES P. SCOTT
Mr. Cohn. You are Mr. James P. Scott?
Mr. Scott. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been suspended?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I have.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been given any reason?
Mr. Scott. No, I haven't.
Mr. Cohn. When was it effective?
Mr. Scott. October 27th.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had Communist connections of any
kind?
Mr. Scott. No, sir. I was never a Communist, not now, and
don't expect to be.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any front
organizations?
Mr. Scott. No, I haven't. I am of this opinion that there
was union down there and I believe that is----
Mr. Cohn. United Federal Workers of America?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
M. Cohn. Do you belong to that?
Mr. Scott. I belonged to that.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that was Communist dominated?
Mr. Scott. At the time I did not know it.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Marcel Ullmann.
Mr. Scott. Yes, I know him.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. Scott. Just more like an acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist?
Mr. Scott. I didn't know it at the time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Albert Sokel?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Scott. Not at that time.
Mr. Cohn. When did you find that out?
Mr. Scott. I suspected him of being a Communist about two
years after the union formed.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody else you suspected later of
being a Communist?
Mr. Scott. Joe Percoff.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
Mr. Scott. There was a fellow by the name of Kaplan.
Mr. Cohn. Louie Kaplan?
Mr. Scott. That is the name.
Mr. Cohn. Could you identify Louie Kaplan? Do you know what
he looks like?
Mr. Scott. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen him today in the witness room?
Mr. Scott. No, I haven't seen him in years.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been in the witness room most of the
day?
Mr. Scott. Yes, I have.
Mr. Cohn. That will be all for the present, Mr. Scott.
STATEMENT OF BERNARD LEE
Mr. Cohn. Could we have your name, please?
Mr. Lee. Bernard Lee.
Mr. Cohn. Are you working at Monmouth, Mr. Lee?
Mr. Lee. No, I am not.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever work there?
Mr. Lee. Yes, I have been suspended.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Lee. October 21st.
Mr. Cohn. Have you received the specifications yet?
Mr. Lee. The charges? No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know why you were suspended?
Mr. Lee. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any Communist
organizations?
Mr. Lee. No, I have not.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever associated with any Communists?
Mr. Lee. Inadvertently, perhaps.
Mr. Cohn. Which ones?
Mr. Lee. Unfortunately, I believe that my sister-in-law,
while I do not know whether she is a member, in my opinion has
followed those kind of ideas.
Mr. Cohn. What is her name?
Mr. Lee. Ruth Stein.
Mr. Cohn. What is her husband's name?
Mr. Lee. She is not married.
Mr. Cohn. She is your sister-in-law?
Mr. Lee. My wife's sister.
Mr. Cohn. Where does she live?
Mr. Lee. 1127 Grant Avenue, Bronx.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been friendly with her?
Mr. Lee. Friendly?
Mr. Cohn. When did you last see her?
Mr. Lee. Well, the last time I saw her was at a family
gathering. To say I am friendly isn't so. Occasionally we are
in the same household. That last occasion was sometime early in
September.
Mr. Cohn. How old is she?
Mr. Lee. About twenty-nine.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever been in your home?
Mr. Lee. Yes, she has been in my home.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been in hers?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. That is my mother-in-law's home.
Mr. Cohn. What leads you to think she is a Communist or
party line follower?
Mr. Lee. Why, over the years I have my own way of
determining who is a Communist. I think they are pretty obvious
people. For instance, who followed the Moscow-Berlin pact in my
opinion were Communists. I never was sure of the things which
caused me to think about it and really feel she was a loyal
follower. For a period she was working for a union in
Philadelphia, and I was distressed to find the union was one
which had acceded to the requirement for officially signing the
loyalty oath or whatever it was at that time. To me that meant
that the union was very deep Red.
Mr. Cohn. Have you worked on classified material?
Mr. Lee. Recently you mean or over my entire career with
the government?
Mr. Cohn. Let's say recently?
Mr. Lee. Yes, sir. It is necessary in my job to have access
to classified material.
Mr. Cohn. Does your wife think your sister-in-law is a
Communist?
Mr. Lee. [No answer.]
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever discussed it with your wife?
Mr. Lee. Not clearly that way. It is kind of a subtle
thing. Something I have to piece out myself. It hasn't come out
clearly on any occasions. What I hear about my sister-in-law
comes from what I hear from my wife.
Mr. Cohn. Does it distress your wife?
Mr. Lee. Yes, she is very distressed about the whole aspect
of it. It is a very distressing thing, unwholesome thing for a
girl to be doing.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Lee. Missoula School of Mines and Metallurgy.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Lee. I might know him. I am trying to think of what he
looks like.
Mr. Cohn. Harold Ducore?
Mr. Lee. I saw Harold Ducore and now realize I have seen
his face. I do not know him.
Mr. Cohn. Yamins?
Mr. Lee. I know him only in connection with his having been
at the laboratory. We have never had any occasion to even do
business together.
Mr. Cohn. Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Lee. Was Louis Kaplan the one in the witness room?
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any other Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Lee. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joe Levitsky?
Mr. Lee. That doesn't seem like anybody I know.
Mr. Cohn. You have not received the specifications?
Mr. Lee. I have not received any charges.
Mr. Cohn. That is all we want now.
Do you think your suspension is unjustified?
Mr. Lee. Well, I don't know what the rules are for
determining what a security risk is. I unfortunately cannot
help it if my sister-in-law is Red. I am sorry about it.
Mr. Cohn. Can't you avoid associating with her?
Mr. Lee. I have avoided associating with her for years.
Mr. Cohn. When was she last in your house?
Mr. Lee. It must have been over a year and a half ago or
two years.
Mr. Cohn. When did you form the opinion that she was a
Communist or a Communist sympathizer?
Mr. Lee. About the time that I learned the union to which
she belonged, to which she was shop stewardess, when I learned
they had not gone along with the requirements of signing a
loyalty oath.
Mr. Cohn. What does Ruth V. Stein do for a living?
Mr. Lee. Presently?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Lee. She is a librarian, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mr. Lee. I don't know the name of the company. The firm
specializes in medical type of advertising. They write
advertising copy for the drug business, etc.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever worked for the government?
Mr. Lee. Yes, she did.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mr. Lee. She worked in the library at Camp Cole.
Mr. Cohn. For the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Lee. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Where is Camp Cole?
Mr. Lee. That is one of the three laboratories at Fort
Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. How long did she work there?
Mr. Lee. I guess she worked there from 1943, or possibly
1942, until the end of the war in Europe, whenever that was.
1945.
Mr. Cohn. Did you help her obtain employment there?
Mr. Lee. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Were you married at that time?
Mr. Lee. Yes, I was. If she used me for a reference, it is
unbeknowing to me.
Mr. Cohn. Thanks very much for coming in. We will let you
know if we need you again.
STATEMENT OF MELVIN M. MORRIS
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name?
Mr. Morris. Melvin M. Morris.
Mr. Cohn. Have you been suspended?
Mr. Morris. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Morris. 21 October.
Mr. Cohn. Why?
Mr. Morris. I don't know. It says on here.
Mr. Cohn. Did you get any specifications?
Mr. Morris. Not yet.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any Communist
organizations or associated with any Communists?
Mr. Morris. Would you put that in two questions.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever belonged to any Communist
organizations?
Mr. Morris. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever associated with any Communists?
Mr. Morris. I am not refusing to answer this question. I
use to work in the Department of Welfare as a social
investigator and one of my relief clients was a Communist and
tried to recruit me into the Communist party. At that time it
was illegal in the State of New York to give information on
relief clients.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name?
Mr. Morris. Elizabeth Ray. I don't want to violate----
Mr. Cohn. That is all right.
Mr. Cohn. How well do you know her?
Mr. Morris. Strictly professional basis. At that time the
Unemployment Council, which was said to be a Communist
organization was in my territory. I had the territory around
Bleeker, Thompson Street. She lived on Thompson Street and the
Unemployment Council was right downstairs from where she lived.
I have no knowledge that the Unemployment Council was
Communist. She tried to recruit me.
Mr. Cohn. What made her think you would be susceptible?
Mr. Morris. I think she was nuts.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had any sympathy for communism?
Mr. Morris. Yes, sir, to some extent I have.
Mr. Cohn. What year was that?
Mr. Morris. I am not sure of the exact year it started. I
can sure tell you when it stopped. I can trace back. I got
completely disillusioned with the claims of the Communists at
the German-Soviet pact which would be about 1939. It would
probably be 1936 or 1937 somewhere around there.
Mr. Cohn. Did you attend any Communist meetings?
Mr. Morris. One time. At that time I was an active union
member of the union, Department of Welfare, and they invited me
to a Communist party meeting and offered me a Communist party
card. I took the card and gave some consideration as to whether
I should join or not. I thought this might be the answer to
some of my troubles. I finally decided against the idea,
although I still investigated and looked into it thoroughly--
read an awful lot.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a couple of years before the pact?
Mr. Morris. I would say so. I am a little hazy.
Mr. Cohn. And your complete break came at the time of the
pact?
Mr. Morris. I don't know about what you mean. I lost all
faith in any statements made by the Communist, Daily Worker, or
anything of that sort. Prior to that I was skeptical but that
was the final score.
Mr. Cohn. Have you known any Communists since that time?
Mr. Morris. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. Where have you worked at Monmouth most recently?
Mr. Morris. Headquarters.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever work at Evans?
Mr. Morris. One year. Applied Physics Branch.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever worked on any classified material?
Mr. Morris. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had a clearance for classified material?
Mr. Morris. I have had a clearance through secret.
Incidentally, these questions I have answered were
previously asked me sometime back and I answered them in the
same way.
Mr. Cohn. By whom were they asked?
Mr. Morris. I was given one of those interrogatories from
the intelligence division.
Mr. Cohn. On that basis, was a hearing held?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Morris. I have it here. I can refresh my memory.
January 1948.
Mr. Cohn. And you haven't heard anything since then?
Mr. Morris. I was told I was cleared. The FBI did a
complete field investigation on me, spent about two years on my
case. Everything I said was verified and I was cleared for
secret. I have never had occasion to have top secret clearance.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anything else you want to tell us?
Mr. Morris. I would like to know why I was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. The suspensions are not the territory of the
committee, but I would imagine that it is because of the facts
you have stated here.
Mr. Morris. Except I was cleared after investigation. That
is what I don't understand.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Morris. I met him one time at a conference and that is
the extent of my knowledge. I am quite sure that several years
ago I met him once.
Mr. Cohn. Harold Ducore?
Mr. Morris. I never saw him before today.
Mr. Cohn. Yamins?
Mr. Morris. Yamins worked across the hall from me in the
same division for the director of engineers for I'd say about a
year. I had considerable professional dealings with Mr. Yamins
at that time and since at MIT in my field of responsibility. He
had to send me considerable information from MIT. I had to get
in touch with him.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever consider that Yamins was connected
with the Communist party?
Mr. Morris. At this point, if you want my opinion, I would
say I haven't any belief that he is.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any colleagues at Monmouth that you
have associated with that you think might be Communist or
Communist sympathizers?
Mr. Lee. No, sir, if I did, I would have turned them in.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Louis Kaplan?
Mr. Morris. Not until today.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know another one?
Mr. Morris. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Joe Levitsky?
Mr. Morris. Never heard the name.
Mr. Cohn. That is all. Thanks very much.
[The hearing adjourned at 5:00 p.m.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--None of the witnesses at the staff
interrogatory on November 2, 1953, William Johnstone Jones,
Murray Narell (1923-1991), Samuel Sack (1911-1977), Joseph
Bert, Raymond Delcamp (1922-1979), Leo Fary (1919-1975), or
Irving Stokes, testified in public session.]
----------
MONDAY, NOVEMBER 2, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The staff interrogatory commenced at 11:00 a.m., in room
36, Federal Building, New York, Mr. G. David Schine presiding.
Present also: G. David Schine, chief consultant; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr, staff director; Daniel G.
Buckley, assistant counsel; James Juliana, investigator.
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM JOHNSTONE JONES
Mr. Carr. Your name is William Johnstone Jones?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Carr. And you are currently employed where?
Mr. Jones. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Mr. Carr. In what capacity?
Mr. Jones. Engineer.
Mr. Carr. How long have you been there?
Mr. Jones. About a year and two or three months. I went to
work in August, I think it was August 1952.
Mr. Carr. Prior to that you worked where?
Mr. Jones. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Carr. And you were attached to Evans?
Mr. Jones. During the later portion. When I first went
there, I was assigned to Fort Hancock and then later
transferred down to Evans.
Mr. Carr. You now have clearance for classified work?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. Up to and including secret?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. Or top secret?
Mr. Jones. Secret.
Mr. Carr. Are you handling classified work at the present
time?
Mr. Jones. The particular equipment I am working on is
unclassified at the present time.
Mr. Carr. But you do, according to the job you are assigned
to, work on classified material? In other words, you have
clearance up to secret. At the present time you are working on
a particular assignment which is unclassified?
Mr. Jones. The equipment is unclassified. If we get data,
that may be classified. I am placed in a position that if we
get data, it will be classified and I am cleared to look at it.
Mr. Jones. May I ask you something?
Mr. Carr. Yes.
Mr. Jones. I don't know your name.
Mr. Carr. Carr.
Mr. Jones. I'd like to know--what goes on my wife and my
mother and brother would like to know--if it is secret.
Mr. Carr. If you want to tell them, that is entirely up to
you. It is secret in the sense that we keep the identity of the
people who come here quiet. It is entirely up to you. This is
not a secret hearing. It is a staff interrogatory to develop
whether or not you should be called before the senators. If you
want to tell your wife or your family anything that goes on, it
will be entirely up to you.
Mr. Jones. Could I have a copy?
Mr. Carr. No, I am sorry you can't have a copy. However,
you can arrange to look at it at any time.
Mr. Jones. Can I take notes?
Mr. Carr. Certainly.
Mr. Jones. Just a matter of curiosity.
Mr. Carr. When did you first go to work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Jones. I went to work at Fort Monmouth. I was hired by
the Signal Corps in June 1941, June 24th, I think, to be exact.
Mr. Carr. In what capacity?
Mr. Jones. Junior engineer.
Mr. Carr. What college did you go to?
Mr. Jones. Tufts College, Massachusetts.
Mr. Carr. And did you go there right after college? Was
that your first job?
Mr. Jones. That was the only place I could get a job.
Mr. Carr. Now, you stayed at Monmouth until 1952?
Mr. Jones. I was employed by the Signal Corps, Fort
Monmouth until, don't hold me to the date, the 21st or
something 1951 when I was suspended and the 24th of June 1951,
I was released. I had an appeal hearing in September of 1951 in
Washington and I was reinstated in March 1952, and I stayed
there until it was indicated to me I had secret clearance and
then I resigned. I resigned in July, I think, of 1952.
Mr. Carr. Now, why were you suspended in 1951?
Mr. Jones. The charges were listed 1 and 2. The first
charge was, that I had--I am paraphrasing--permitted
conversations to take place in the section--I was section
chief--in which communism was praised and discussed; and that I
had permitted the Daily Worker to be circulated in that
section.
Mr. Carr. That is at the post?
Mr. Jones. At the post; right within the restricted area.
There are several individual buildings, outside buildings, and
one of the buildings housed the section of which I was chief.
That is charge 1. Charge 2 said when I was elected to the vice
presidency of my union, I had as supporters two reported or
reputed Communists. That was all.
Mr. Carr. Now, you were suspended in 1951 on those charges;
you took an appeal and you were subsequently reinstated.
Mr. Jones. I should go back further. In May 1950 or 1949, I
am not sure which date, I was placed on a restricted status.
All clearances were withdrawn up to restricted. I saw no
confidential or secret material. My name was placed on a list
in the library as one who couldn't receive documents that were
classified material. All mail coming to my section was
censured. That went on about a year, I think, maybe a year. It
was 1949 or 1950. I can determine that accurately.
I was placed in a restricted status and I could handle no
classified material. I was suspended in January. I was
presented formal charges in January. I had a hearing exactly
thirty days later in February. I had a hearing at Fort Monmouth
before a hearing board; and in January 1951, I was called down
and presented a letter dismissing me from government service.
It indicated there that I had a right to appeal.
I requested an appeal and it was granted and I was heard in
Washington, Pentagon Building, and in March of 1952 I was
called back and reinstated, but I didn't receive secret
clearance immediately. That is, my name was still on the
restricted list in the library and other places where this
material circulated. It was my intention to leave the
laboratory, leave the employee of the government. Subsequently,
I think it was maybe two or three weeks after I was cleared for
secret, I resigned and left the government service.
Mr. Carr. That is when you went to MIT?
Mr. Jones. Right after that, yes. I did some circulating
around and chose MIT. I had some other offers.
Mr. Carr. Now, these charges, the first charge that you had
allowed in your section the Daily Worker to be--I shouldn't say
distributed--at least circulated; that there had been Communist
statements made and such, what was your answer to that charge?
Mr. Jones. I denied the charge. That was charge 1. I
considered charge 1a the discussion and charge 1b, the Daily
Worker, and I denied in effect all of charge 1a and 1b.
Mr. Carr. In denying charge 1, was it a categorical denial
or did you state anything in your defense or concerning the
charges?
Mr. Jones. Well, the charges named no people, no time, no
place, no occasion. Also, all throughout the hearings and
procedures and questioning, they never said who brought the
Daily Worker in. I never heard of anyone being suspended for
bringing in the Daily Worker. It was just like, ``Who killed
Cock Robin?'' I saw him killed and I was a security risk. I
don't know who the interrogatory said brought the Daily Worker
in the section. They named nothing and all through the hearings
held in Fort Monmouth in February--It was a two day hearing;
started at 9:00 one morning and ended at 10:00 p.m. I came back
the next day and it started at 9:00 and ended at 5:00.
During the questioning period, it became apparent, I
assume, that the derogatory information was from people who had
worked in my section, but I presented witnesses in my behalf in
connection with charge 1a and 1b that were present. People that
were present in 1949 at the Signal Corps at Fort Monmouth came
to the hearing board and made statements that they had never
seen the Daily Worker in my section and had never heard any
conversations on communism or that the Communistic form of
government was considered superior.
Mr. Carr. Did you testify that you had never seen or heard
this activity either?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. What happened was after the
unfavorable decision in June, I wrote the commanding officer of
the Signal Corps and he sent me a list signed by the chief
intelligence agent of everyone who ever worked for me. I
started out with the first name and ran all the way through of
all the people in my section at the time the charges were
reported to have occurred, and I couldn't get affidavits from
four people.
One of them was Ross E. Edgett. He is working for the
Watson Air Force Laboratories up in Rome. He would tell me he
never saw the Daily Worker, knew I was not a pro-Communist or
Communist sympathizer, and didn't hear any conversations. When
I asked him for an affidavit he hemmed and hawed and said he
was still working in the government and he couldn't help me. I
finally made a telephone recording of a conversation and even
though I don't have an affidavit, I have a telephone recording
of a conversation. It had to be traced through to identify the
person and there was no question.
The second fellow was Edward Blackwell. Ed Blackwell, I had
considerable trouble within the section when he was assigned to
me. He reported as an engineer and I assumed he was an
engineer. I had given him tests at an engineering level, at
least the engineering level P-3, which he was. He was sent to
White Sands, etc., and consistently he failed to perform. I
tried every means possible to push him up and offered him
raises if he would work. He just claimed that I expected
performance too fast. He went to my supervisor and was finally
transferred out of my section. I spoke to him and he denied
having heard anything relative to the charges, denied anything
about charge 1 and he wouldn't know about charge 2. He didn't
want to be involved.
That left two others--James C. Chappel. James Chappel was a
radio mechanic who had been assigned to me in a reshifting of
the organization. He claimed when he went to work he had a bad
leg and he would be out frequently due to this bad leg. He had
a pass to bring his car onto the grounds, and further he said
he didn't want to work in the building; that he had rather work
outside in a shed. He worked there by himself. He worked for
about six months and then he asked for a transfer to his home
in Florida, to an agency which existed near his home in
Florida.
Within the period of his employment, I had two unfavorable
circumstances with him, not unfavorable, disagreeable. Once I
walked into the shed with a number of people and he was saying
something about Negroes. On the second occasion my twin
brother, who was an officer in the marines, Third Division,
came over to tell me goodbye. He was going to Guam. Everyone
was interested to know that I had an identical twin who could
pass for me. I introduced him to Chappel and he refused to
shake his hand.
I run a section. If a man doesn't like me because I am a
Negro, I have to rate him on his ability to prepare the jobs
assigned to him. I gave him a good or very good efficiency
rating, but when he requested the transfer to Florida, I made
sure he got it. I wrote a friend of mine, fellow worker, who
was responsible for them and this man requested him and took
him down. I tried to find Chappel after the unfavorable
decision to get an affidavit from him and I didn't know where
he was.
His landlady told me--I called her--don't hold me to these
little things, and she told me he was away. She told me I might
see his Minister, Reverend J. K. Holms of the Old First
Methodist Church in Long Branch, and I did and told him my
story.
He told me I wouldn't get very much; that Chappel disliked
Negroes; that he was a very ignorant person. I mentioned his
sickness and he told me that both Chappel and his wife were
alcoholics; that he had heard the story about Chappell's leg
and he got a physician in his congregation to see him and the
physician said he couldn't help him; that his trouble was
alcohol; that Chappel stayed drunk and could not come out of
the house and finally his landlady asked him to move; that
Chappel went to live in another town and his wife committed
suicide.
He wrote to Chappel and asked Chappel to write to me, but
he didn't give me much help. I got in touch with people who
worked with him in that building at that time and they told me
that Chappel hated my guts. He was always preaching what he and
his group would do when he got out of the Army, etc. He
resented working for me. I supplied that information in the
form of correspondence at the hearing in Washington concerning
Chappel.
The third person was a secretary in the section, Julia
Paulson. She was a middle-aged woman and had worked as
secretary to the chief scientist, I think, at Fort Monmouth and
he in that office had dismissed her.
We had a need for a secretary at that particular time and
she was assigned to the group. She was very inefficient,
incompetent, and in a highly excitable stage. We were always in
a hassle or controversy with other mail and records people on
how many copies she had typed properly, etc., and I tried to
iron it out. She was one of those persons--She said, ``The
first thing I know I will be in the state hospital with my
brother.'' At that time I said, ``This is something far more
fundamental than I am equipped to cope with,'' and I let it
ride. I tried to leave the situation as it was.
I was away on a trip on some duties outside the laboratory
and when I returned I was informed that she had been reassigned
somewhere else. She had been shifted out of the section, but I
was happy to get rid of the woman. I pursued it no further. She
was gone.
When I tried to complete the list of affidavits for each
person, I wrote to the branch chief, Dr. Anderson, and asked
him if he would tell me something about the circumstances of
the firing of this particular secretary. He told me he did not
know the exact details; to get in touch with his administrative
assistant, who at that time was Nagel O'Brien.
Nagel O'Brien wrote to me and sent an affidavit, a letter
to whom it may concern, which I submitted in Washington, in
which he stated she resented being assigned to work for a
Negro, and she was very upset and he had transferred her out of
the branch at the request of Dr. Anderson because of her
attitude and general inefficiency and incompetency.
This completed the list of all the people that ever worked
for me as indicated by the chief of intelligence agency to me
in a letter. I had affidavits from all the people in my section
during the time the Daily Worker was supposed to be there and
these conversations took place where communism was praised or
advocated.
Now, I don't know for a fact whether it was one of the four
people who refused to send letters or appear. I eliminated
Edgett. He said over the phone that it wasn't so. I assume that
it was one of the other three. I guess the only thing you can
do if you have a witness is to prove he is lying or
incompetent. If some thirty-five or forty people says those two
are lying, that is the best I can do. Some people working in
the outside shed with Chappel. He did not work in the building
proper.
Mr. Carr. Let me ask you this: To your knowledge there were
no Daily Workers in the area that you were responsible for?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir. To my knowledge there were no Daily
Workers. It appears to be ludicrous that someone would be so
bold and stupid as to bring Daily Workers past the military. At
that time we had such an atmosphere that people were aware of
the threat.
Mr. Carr. It is also your statement that to your knowledge
there has never been any conversations favoring communism going
on in the area that you had personal knowledge of?
Mr. Jones. In my section? I want you to understand one
thing. Barry Bernstein, the assistant section chief at that
time, was very much interested in the Great Books Club. He
would argue or discuss Aristotle, Socrates, Freud during rest
periods. These are the only conversation I can say were
different from or different to the normal bull sessions such as
whether the Yankees would beat the Dodgers which took place in
the section. I don't ever remember having heard any discussions
of communism. I have heard discussions of the philosophy of
Aristotle, Socrates, and Freud. This I am mentioning to show
any or all things which could have been interpreted one way or
another by anyone. He was active in this club and that is about
the only thing that, shall we say, one could index, other than
who won the fights last night.
Mr. Carr. Concerning the other charge that you accepted
Communist support in your union, for your union post----
Mr. Jones. I just want to bring in this other point. Miss
Paulson, when assigned to my section, Captain Kerns, who was
the officer in charge of the section at that time, he was my
superior, and immediately upon her assignment he recognized the
difficulty and placed her in an office well removed from where
I was within the building because as long as she was near me
she was complaining or interfering and he placed her away so
the trouble with her was recognized earlier. During her period
in the section, Captain Kerns was discharged from the army and
had no replacement and I assumed responsibility for the
section.
I can review the history of my association with the union.
When I went to work for the Signal Corps, as I mentioned
earlier, that was the only place I could go to work and the
labs have always been spread out among different places, Fort
Hancock, Red Bank, Belmont, and Long Branch, etc., and it was
extremely embarrassing when we had an inventory to do. If I
were at Fort Hancock and we were asked to go to the field
station at Belmont, and if we had to eat anywhere in Monmouth
County, I couldn't. I couldn't go to any theaters, unless I sat
in the balcony in the reserved section, and couldn't attend any
bowling alleys, bowling meets, roller skating meets with the
fellows on the job. If a fellow said, ``Let's get a cup of
coffee,'' I sat in the car.
You don't maintain much respect with your co-workers and
people working for you if you have to live under those
circumstances.
In the next town, I lived in Fair Haven, there were two
schools, one for the Negro children and one for the white
children, and it didn't make any difference where you lived
they had to cross over. I got in touch with the NAACP. This was
legal in the state of New Jersey.
There was an organization at Fort Monmouth still in
existence, the National Federation of Federal Employees and at
the particular time that I first went about it, I went to the
president, a Mr. Heller who later was a captain in the army,
and I asked him what could be done about it. He said that this
was an internal organization and they didn't have anything to
do with outside activities; that I would have to go somewhere
else.
It costs a lot of money to fight a case. The NAACP was not
strong enough to do that. They said we can't help you, so I had
to live with the situation until 1944.
Someone mentioned at that time that there was a CIO Union
organized within Evans Signal Corps. This was the latter part
of 1944 and at that time the CIO was very active in promoting
anti-discrimination policies or programs. I went to a meeting
and determined that it was affiliated in fact with the CIO and
learned that the state headquarters of the CIO was affording
legal assistance for a very nominal fee to any local who needed
it, and to prosecute for discrimination cases before the court
was perfectly in order for the CIO, for a local union to do it.
So I joined the union and as a member there wasn't too much
interest in discrimination and I decided the only way to get
this anywhere was to become an officer, and I became an officer
by very elementary means--go to a meeting and wait until they
bring up an item for discussion. Let everybody argue about an
hour or so, recognize the trend of opinion and then get up and
say, ``We ought to do such and such.'' Do that three or four
times.
I had had some training in arguing against each other about
the same things, so it was comparatively simple to make them
feel ``This fellow knows what he is doing.'' I was elected
unanimously to vice president. The president resigned and I
became president to fill out his term, and the second term I
was reelected to the president.
We then had a situation occur against the Rockwell Diner in
Long Branch. It was and still is my opinion that if you have a
court decision against anyone particular diner, then any and
all other diners in the county and state abide by the rule. So
this situation occurred. We set up this case of discrimination
against the Rockwell Diner and then wrote to the headquarters
of the state union and they assigned a lawyer. Do you want the
name?
Mr. Carr. Might as well have it.
Mr. Jones. Harris Oxfeld and Rothbard, 1060 Broad Street,
Newark.
I am going to get this quickly.
Then we waited for him to file and he filed suit in Long
Branch District Court and a year and a half later nothing still
was done about it, so we wrote to the State CIO and asked why
didn't this fellow do something and a representative of the CIO
came down and spoke with us. He said they had unions elsewhere
and had thousands of people and our local had twenty-five or
twenty-six people in it and he couldn't see that it merited too
much attention unless we could increase the membership, and he
told the causes of things that drive people into unions and
none of those reasons existed at Fort Monmouth. Our chances of
becoming a stronger local to warrant attention in the matter of
anti-discrimination cases were slim.
I resigned from office and stopped paying dues because at
the same time the State of New Jersey revised the constitution
and set-up mechanism within the constitution to take care of
discrimination. It was no longer necessary to hire lawyers.
That is the end of my membership.
Mr. Carr. What about the allegation that you accepted
Communist support, specifically?
Mr. Jones. First of all, anybody who was in the union was
cleared secret in the laboratories. There isn't any reason to
suspect anyone unless you lose association with that person
outside of work.
Secondly, when they say support, I have no recollection of
anyone getting up and making a speech in my behalf; no
knowledge of anyone circulating petitions; electioneering among
members that ``Jones is the man we want for president.''
I said I was elected unanimously, and that is the best of
my recollection. If someone were to say there were ten
Communists in there, I couldn't say whether these people had
done anything particular to support me.
Mr. Carr. Do you know Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Jones. Yes, and Albert Sokel. I assume they were the
ones referred to, the reputed or alleged Communists, who
supported me in my candidacy for the presidency.
Mr. Carr. Did you know Ullmann was a Communist or reputed
to be Communist at the time ?
Mr. Jones. No, sir. I have no information on that. I have
never been told but I assumed Ullmann to be a Communist and
from the statements at hearings and from rumors about his
refusing or disinclination to answer any questions against him
upon his suspension from Watson Laboratory is the only
information I have he is a Communist. The same goes with Albert
Sokel.
Let me go further. I have never been to Sokel's home or
Ullmann's. I don't know Marcel Ullmann's wife. My wife doesn't
know her. They haven't been to our home. My wife has never been
to either character's home.
Mr. Carr. How about Barry Bernstein?
Mr. Jones. Barry Bernstein, I have associated with. I have
no reason to suspect that he is a member of the Communist party
or Communist sympathizer.
Mr. Carr. Were you a member of the American Veterans
Committee?
Mr. Jones. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Let me ask you this: Had you known that some of
your supporters in the union were Communists, would you have
accepted their support'?
Mr. Jones. Had I known that members of the union were
Communists, I would not have joined the union. That is to begin
with. There was a fellow in the union at that time named Albert
Strong and I knew Strong outside. He was aware of my interest
in the problem of discrimination in Monmouth County. He had a
daughter in New Jersey State College and she was taking a
position against discrimination against Negroes. Strong was in
the union. Strong also told me he had been sent to Washington
by the American Legion and he had taken a course in the FBI
auditorium at which they told how to spot and detect and report
communism. There was a fellow named Ralph Patterson, who
subsequently received an award from the American Legion. Ralph
Patterson I knew in the laboratories and he told me to be on
the lookout for Communists. If I knew Communists were in the
union, I would not have joined the union no matter what my aims
were of having been in the union. These men had been cleared by
experts and all men in the laboratories had been cleared for
secret.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever belonged to the Communist party?
Mr. Jones. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. Have you ever belonged to any organization which
has been designated by the attorney general as a Communist
front?
Mr. Jones. No, sir.
Mr. Carr. You never attended meetings of the Communist
party?
Mr. Jones. I never attended meetings of any organization
declared subversive by the attorney general.
I don't know whether the attorney general called these men
subversive. I am referring to the list the Herald Tribune
published.
Mr. Carr. Your association with Marcel Ullmann was how
extensive?
Mr. Jones. We had little or no professional association
within the laboratory. On the outside we had association in the
union trying to get this case brought before the court. I did
not live in Monmouth County all during my period of employment.
I had an apartment at my mother's house here in New York. My
wife taught in nursery school in New York City during the
winter. She came down when school was out for the summertime.
We had a pair of twins we lost after they were born. They were
born in New York. The doctor who attended my wife was from New
York and they died in a New York hospital. If you will examine
the water bill record for the house, you will find that the
water was turned off over the winter and turned on again in the
spring. I did not stay in Monmouth County to socialize with
these people.
Secondly, I was going to school nights up here at Newark
College of Engineering, New York University. I got my masters
and half work towards my doctorate.
Thirdly, they sent me, and I requested from the Signal
Corps a list of all the travel orders I had stating the days I
was out and the travel order number, and that indicated I was
not in Monmouth County at least ten days out of the month. I
was in the field primarily. I was not in the laboratory an
average of ten days a month. It petered off toward the end.
Mr. Carr. Concerning these discussions that Bernstein would
engage in, could he have been discussing Marxism in these
discussions?
Mr. Jones. He could have. I did not enter the discussions.
As a section chief you have to maintain--once you become
involved in bull sessions, then you are no longer supervisor,
but one of the boys. If you have to redress a fellow
immediately afterwards, you are in an awkward position. I also
recognized as a Civil Service employee supervisor you don't
have any right of giving people raises, firing them, letting
them go, or anything. The only thing you can do is make them
like you if you have them working for you. You have no
administrative powers as is normal outside. To get people to
like you, you can't get into disagreements as to views on
religion, and then the next day ask him to make a measurement
or put himself to some inconvenience. You have to keep above
the people in that respect to get ahead.
Mr. Carr. So that I have this straight, your only problem
that you were interested in joining the union, the only problem
you had was the question of racial discrimination?
Mr. Jones. Outside the organization; none within the
laboratory.
Mr. Carr. It was for the purpose of trying to get something
done about this that you entered into the union activities?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
Mr. Carr. Now, you left when it became obvious the union
wasn't going to do anything about it, or when the state decided
to handle it themselves, in other words, changed the law?
Mr. Jones. That is right.
Mr. Carr. You maintain your only activity while associated
with the laboratories down there was one concerning fighting
racial discrimination and that you had no connection whatsoever
with any Communist activity to your knowledge?
Mr. Jones. That is right. The union, during my membership
and while I was an officer, did not endorse any political
candidates, did not recommend any cessation of wars,
particularly did not endorse the Marshal Plan or speak against
it during my association with it. If members were outside,
doing it elsewhere, they didn't do it with the official
sanction of any meeting that this fellow was going to represent
local so and so at this organization.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know Joseph Percoff?
Mr. Jones. He was the fellow that was president of the
union when I was vice president and he left. I don't know
whether he had ulcers or what. I was elected vice president. He
was president. I saw him at the meeting he was elected and I
don't remember ever seeing him at union meetings after that.
Mr. Juliana. Did you know him as a Communist?
Mr. Jones. No, I don't know him at all other than working
at the laboratory. I have no information about him.
Mr. Juliana. You had no knowledge that the union was
infiltrated by Communists?
Mr. Jones. At the time of my membership up to 1948 I had no
inkling. After 1948, after Sokel's discharge from the
laboratory. Sokel and Ullmann. One person said they were
Communists. They never got in touch with me to tell me they
were fired for Communistic reasons and they never challenged
it. I was no longer a member of the union and had no
association with them.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever attend meetings of the Walt
Whitman Club?
Mr. Jones. No, sir. The only time I heard of the Walt
Whitman Club was after Jack Okun was suspended and his lawyer
came to see me at Evans, saw me at Evans in the reception room
and asked if I would appear as a witness. He mentioned the Walt
Whitman Club and that was the first time I had ever seen the
name or heard of it. I went back and asked Strong and he told
me it was a Communist front organization.
Mr. Carr. Did you appear for Okun?
Mr. Jones. I didn't appear for Okun. I appeared as a
witness at the hearing and they said the union held joint
meetings with the Walt Whitman Club and I said this is false in
as far as I know and I made this statement at this hearing.
There were some arguments with his lawyer as to whether he was
operating a mimeograph machine. I still don't think he thinks I
was a witness for him.
After his lawyer questioned me to his satisfaction, I told
them I wanted to make a statement that not to my knowledge or
within my administration and under my authority of any
endorsements, any joint meetings held with the union and any
other organization, particularly the Walt Whitman Club; that I
had learned the name for the first time yesterday.
Mr. Carr. Have you known any persons known to you to be
Communists?
Mr. Jones. No. I know people that I say, ``I think that guy
is left-wing.''
Mr. Carr. You mean Communist sympathizers.
Mr. Jones. No, I know of persons you read about.
Mr. Carr. Did you appear for anybody else in the hearings
at Monmouth?
Mr. Jones. No.
Mr. Carr. Do you know anybody else at Monmouth who, in your
opinion was Communist or extremely left-wing? When I say left-
wing, I mean actually pro-Communist. Let's not view a situation
with the knowledge we have now.
Mr. Jones. There was a fellow named Louis Kaplan in the
union. I know now this man had Communist sympathies, at least I
suspect now from statements made at hearings and comments of
other people. You can't judge a situation--up to the time when
they first made the first break exposing Communist in the
Signal Corps, I knew of none of these people.
Mr. Carr. You were entirely unaware that Kaplan, Ullmann,
and some of the other people were Communists or procommunists?
Mr. Jones. Yes, sir.
How would you determine this? I didn't discuss union
activities on the job. This was part of the policy. No one who
worked for Monmouth and belonged to the union solicited on the
job.
The union meetings were held very infrequently, primarily
because there were very few people, and secondly, I wasn't
there all the time. I was not in Monmouth County sufficient
time to hold regular meetings. If I were at a meeting, it was
my object to get in and out of it as quickly as possible to get
a late train back to New York or get to school. There was no
social contact with any of these individuals.
Let me make this exception. I went to the home of Louis
Kaplan once for dinner. We had a meeting and some woman was
talking. He said, ``Shut her up.'' I said, ``No, she is
talking. The woman has a right to talk.'' He blew up.
He asked me to come to dinner and I went to his house at
seven o'clock and left about 8:30, and all the time he was
trying to be very gracious with me, trying to get me to direct
the conversation at meetings and put any policy across.
As soon as the meal was over, I said ``Goodbye'' and left.
That is the only time I have been to his house. He has not been
to mine. My wife does not know him.
Mr. Carr. At that dinner meeting, Marxism was not discussed
at all?
Mr. Jones. No. I don't know if he were trying to direct the
conversation in any channels. I made a point to keep quite in
trivial matters, so I could get this thing over and get out. I
had no suspicion that he was a Communist or anything or trying
to direct anything in any Communist way. My objection I had was
of people who deny others the right to speak up and to be as
independent of that person as much as possible.
Mr. Carr. Were you ever in Marcel Ullmann's home?
Mr. Jones. No, sir. I was never in Sokel's home.
Mr. Juliana. When you were reinstated did you receive back
pay and allowances for the period----
Mr. Jones. I received a portion of back pay. In a sense
what I computed I should have gotten and what he computed were
different. I received no legal fees, no expenses and there were
regular in-grade, etc. I was supposed to have gotten, and
promotion which would have taken place, and also annual leave
losses, etc. It amounted to a considerable amount of money,
thousands of dollars.
Mr. Carr. Thank you very much.
Mr. Jones. Have I answered all your questions frankly and
openly and as completely as you want. I have held one hearing.
I don't want to leave any doubt in anybody's mind. I want to
make sure everyone is satisfied.
Mr. Carr. There were some Negroes in the union?
Mr. Jones. Jim Scott was in there. He was in there
primarily for this purpose. He was seldom at any meetings. He
was at one meeting the whole time I was there.
Mr. Carr. That is all.
Mr. Jones. I didn't get your name.
Mr. Carr. Carr and Mr. Julian and Mr. Cohn.
Thank you very much for coming.
Mr. Jones. Should I expect to be called again?
Mr. Carr. I don't believe so, Mr. Jones, but I can't say
definitely.
Mr. Jones. The point is, when I go back, do I have to tell
my supervisor I was here?
Mr. Carr. I don't believe so. We have to call in a lot of
people to straighten out some of the things we have heard. I
don't believe we will need you back again. If we do, we will
try to give you ample notice to get down here. We appreciate
your coming.
STATEMENT OF MURRAY NARELL
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name?
Mr. Narell. Murray Narell.
Mr. Cohn. N-a-r-e-l-l.
Mr. Narell. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside?
Mr. Narell. 20-23 Utopia Parkway, Whitestone 57, New York.
Mr. Cohn. What is your telephone number?
Mr. Narell. Bayside 4-3844.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you for coming in, by the way.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Narell. Yes, I was.
Mr. Cohn. When did you join the party?
Mr. Narell. 1945.
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the party?
Mr. Narell. 1952.
Mr. Cohn. In October 1952?
Mr. Narell. About then. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you join?
Mr. Narell. New York, Manhattan.
Mr. Cohn. And while you were in the Communist party did you
come across a woman named Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Narell. I think so, if it is the same one.
Mr. Cohn. Would you tell us the circumstances.
Mr. Narell. If I am not mistaken, I think there was a young
woman by that name who attended Columbia University, in the
department of economics or something like that.
Mr. Cohn. Studying there?
Mr. Narell. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. What year would that be?
Mr. Narell. Roughly 1946.
Mr. Cohn. What did she look like?
Mr. Narell. As I recall, she had reddish hair, frizzly
hair. She was about 5,6" or 7" or something, middle height.
Above average for a woman. I think she wore glasses.
Mr. Juliana. Do you know where she lived?
Mr. Narell. She lived in Queens, I think.
Mr. Juliana. Was she single at the time?
Mr. Narell. Yes. I am quite sure.
Mr. Buckley. Was she ever engaged in social work? Do you
know?
Mr. Narell. I don't know. I didn't know her that well.
Mr. Cohn. About how old would she be today?
Mr. Narell. Twenty-eight, twenty-nine. That would be rough
because I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. If you saw a picture of her, you could identify
her. Is that right?
Mr. Narell. I think so. I haven't seen her in six or seven
years. I am not positive that I would.
Mr. Cohn. I think that will do it. Thanks very much for
coming in.
STATEMENT OF SAMUEL SACK
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Sack. Samuel S-a-c-k.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work now?
Mr. Sack. Espey Manufacturing Company.
Mr. Cohn. Where is that located?
Mr. Sack. 528 East 72nd Street.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
employed there?
Mr. Sack. A little over five years.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
Mr. Sack. In my own company, Supreme Transmitter
Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you have your
own company?
Mr. Sack. Two years.
Mr. Cohn. Before that?
Mr. Sack. Transmitter, Incorporated, 240 Hudson Street.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you with that company?
Mr. Sack. Approximately five years.
Mr. Cohn. Have you worked for the government?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I have.
Mr. Cohn. Where?
Mr. Sack. Fort Hancock, 1940 to 1941.
Mr. Cohn. By what department were you employed?
Mr. Sack. I was employed by the Department of Army,
Department of Defense, by the Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Sack. Assistant engineer in the Radar Position Finding
Division Group.
Mr. Cohn. Did you have access to any classified material?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Do you now?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I do.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work do you do at Espey? Do you do
any Signal Corps work?
Mr. Sack. Yes, we do.
Mr. Cohn. About how many contracts do they have at the
moment, do you know?
Mr. Sack. I would judge--with whom?
Mr. Cohn. With the Signal Corps.
Mr. Sack. With the Signal Corps I believe we have one
contract still running.
Mr. Cohn. Does that involve radar?
Mr. Sack. No, it does not.
Mr. Cohn. What does it involve?
Mr. Sack. Communication equipment.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a Communist?
Mr. Sack. No.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been affiliated with the Communist
movement in any way?
Mr. Sack. No.
Mr. Cohn. No way, shape, manner or form?
Mr. Sack. No way, shape, manner or form, except in 1936 I
registered Communist.
Mr. Cohn. This certainly qualified for affiliation, doesn't
it?
Mr. Sack. I don't know, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What was your purpose in registering Communist?
Mr. Sack. I don't know that either.
Mr. Cohn. Now, was that the only time you registered
Communist?
Mr. Sack. Yes, it was.
Mr. Cohn. Under what circumstances did you register
Communist?
Mr. Sack. I believe that was the first time I ever
registered.
Mr. Cohn. Did you believe in communism?
Mr. Sack. I probably was just a misguided fool at the time
and though it is rather difficult to attempt to explain my
attitude at that time, I probably thought that everybody had a
right to be on the ballot or some such thing as that. I believe
that was probably the reason if there was a reason.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever attend Communist meetings?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Who induced you to register Communist?
Mr. Sack. Nobody I know.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know any Communists?
Mr. Sack. I don't believe I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever know a Communist?
Mr. Sack. I really don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know anybody that you have had reasonable
grounds to believe was a Communist?
Mr. Sack. No, I do not.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know one person in your life who you
think was a Communist?
Mr. Sack. Whom I now think was a Communist?
Mr. Cohn. Yes.
Mr. Sack. Through his wife.
Mr. Cohn. What is the name?
Mr. Sack. Joel Barr.
Mr. Cohn. Now, tell us when you first met Joel Barr?
Mr. Sack. Sometime in the latter part of 1940.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you meet Mr. Barr?
Mr. Sack. I met him as far as I can recall--we had an
apartment together at 140 Broadway in Long Branch for a period
of, I think, approximately two months.
Mr. Cohn. What do you mean when you say you had an
apartment together?
Mr. Sack. Approximately the middle of 1940 or somewhere in
1940, I was employed as assistant engineer by the Signal Corps.
I moved to Long Branch, in a furnished room. We lived in a
furnished room. Of course, that was only a temporary
arrangement, this furnished room, as far as my wife and I were
concerned.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't know Barr at this point?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. I did not. We attempted to get an
apartment. It appears that my wife in hunting for an apartment
met the presumed wife of Barr.
Mr. Cohn. That was Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Sack. I don't know her name.
Mr. Cohn. What did she look like?
Mr. Sack. Fairly tall girl. I think she wore glasses,
brunette. I am not sure.
Mr. Cohn. Would you know her if you saw her?
Mr. Sack. I might.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know whether her name was Vivian?
Mr. Sack. No, I do not. Apparently she had located an
apartment and asked if my wife would be willing to share one to
cut expenses down and apparently they both looked at the
apartment and my wife felt that the apartment was better than
living in a furnished room.
Mr. Cohn. Barr was working for the Signal Corps then. Is
that right?
Mr. Sack. Yes, he was.
Mr. Cohn. You did not meet him then?
Mr. Sack. No, sir. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Had you seen him around?
Mr. Sack. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Your wife met the girl he was supposed to marry?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I believe so.
Mr. Cohn. Then your wife told you about this possibility?
Mr. Sack. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. What happened next?
Mr. Sack. Then we rented this apartment together and we
learned after we were in the apartment after a month or so that
they were not married and we requested that they leave, which
they did leave.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Barr in relation to your
moving into that apartment?
Mr. Sack. I think the only time I met him was when we
actually moved into the apartment.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did you know Barr was a Communist?
Mr. Sack. No, I did not.
Mr. Cohn. Wasn't it pretty obvious from the conversation of
current events.
Mr. Sack. We never had conversations on current events.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you talk to him?
Mr. Sack. As a matter of fact, we had practically nothing
to do with Barr. I think the reason they were willing to move
when we requested it, apparently he personally didn't care for
us.
Mr. Cohn. Don't you recall the name of the woman?
Mr. Sack. No, I do not. I may recognize a photograph. I
don't remember the name.
Mr. Cohn. Did they ever have Communist literature around,
the Daily Worker?
Mr. Sack. No. I am pretty positive. At least none I saw.
Mr. Cohn. Who were their friends, people who would come to
see them?
Mr. Sack. I don't think they had any friends come to see
them, at least none that I ever saw.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work was Barr doing for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Sack. I don't know exactly what work he was doing,
although I know he was interested in the transmission of
intelligence by infra-red rays.
Mr. Cohn. How did you find out he was interested in that?
Mr. Sack. From what he said.
Mr. Cohn. From what he said?
Mr. Sack. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever have papers that he was working on,
studying?
Mr. Sack. None I ever saw.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see him studying?
Mr. Sack. I never saw him studying any papers myself.
Mr. Cohn. You never saw him studying papers?
Mr. Sack. I did not.
Mr. Cohn. How often did he discuss this transmission of
intelligence by infra-red rays?
Mr. Sack. I only remember once.
Mr. Cohn. What do you recall he said?
Mr. Sack. I don't recall the exact nature of the
conversation. He stated that he was interested in that type of
transmission.
Mr. Cohn. He was interested in----
Mr. Sack. That type of transmission.
Mr. Juliana. Mr. Sack, when you registered with the
Communist party; when you registered a Communist, were you
living in Brooklyn?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I was.
Mr. Juliana. What was the address?
Mr. Sack. 4704 13th Avenue in Brooklyn.
Mr. Juliana. Is that in the 16th election district? Do you
know?
Mr. Sack. I am not sure.
Mr. Juliana. You had no other affiliation with the
Communist party or any Communist front organizations that you
can recall?
Mr. Sack. That I can recall.
Mr. Cohn. Did your wife ever register Communist?
Mr. Sack. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did she ever have any connection with the party?
Mr. Sack. None at all.
Mr. Cohn. Tell me what else Barr told you about his work?
Mr. Sack. That is all. That is the only thing I remember
discussing with him.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married now?
Mr. Sack. Yes, I am.
Mr. Cohn. Have you talked to your wife? What does she
recall? Doesn't she recall her first name?
Mr. Sack. I never asked her.
Mr. Cohn. Go back and talk to your wife. We want to know
her first name and everything about her. Your wife will
probably recall the people that came to see them and anything
that was said or done around the apartment, and come back in to
see us.
Where do you live?
Mr. Sack. In Brooklyn at 4520 Twelfth Avenue.
Mr. Cohn. And what about tomorrow? Is tomorrow convenient?
Mr. Sack. It is.
Mr. Cohn. Come in tomorrow around 2:00 p.m.
Mr. Sack. All right.
Mr. Cohn. All right. Thank you.
STATEMENT OF JOSEPH BERT
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Bert. Joseph E. Bert, B-e-r-t.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Bert. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
employed there?
Mr. Bert. I have been employed by Fort Monmouth for a
little over three years and at Evans a little over two and a
half years.
Mr. Cohn. And where were you before you went to Evans?
Mr. Bert. At the Micro Air Force Research Institute, which
is part of the Brooklyn Polytechnic Institute.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have clearance?
Mr. Bert. I have had my clearance removed.
Mr. Cohn. On what grounds?
Mr. Bert. I have no grounds.
Mr. Cohn. They have not supplied you with any grounds? You
are still employed there but you have no clearance--do you have
any idea why your clearance was lifted?
Mr. Bert. Yes, I think it is because of a discussion I had
in the laboratory one day about whether instructors, and
particularly in an engineering school, should be questioned as
to whether or not they were Communists. I had taken the stand
they should be.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Bert. About a year ago.
Mr. Cohn. How do you feel about that now?
Mr. Bert. I have been thinking about that a lot since this
happened. In my experience, in engineering school, I feel that
the question isn't relevant. As I read in the New York Times
yesterday, I didn't have any engineering classes that I thought
the instructors could color my thinking and as such, I thought
the question was rather irrelevant. I think some instructors
would refuse to answer the question even though they weren't
Communists on the basis it obstructed freedoms.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't you read in that same article by Professor
[Sidney] Hook when anyone resorted to the Fifth Amendment as a
subterfuge, that would be just as much defense of
Constitutional authority?
Mr. Bert. I don't think the question at the time it came
up--at the time I didn't think they should be question at all
or not----
Mr. Cohn. Do you think we ought to have Communist working
at Evans?
Mr. Bert. [No answer.]
Mr. Cohn. Suppose he was just teaching technical subjects,
they don't teach communism, do you think if they just teach
technical subjects----
Mr. Bert. I don't really know.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know what you are talking about. Look,
my friend, if you get a Communist teaching some kind of higher
mathematics or chemistry where he can't possibly color the
courses, he still has access to the students in his classes and
gets to know them and other people on the faculty. If he is a
Communist, he will take advantage of the relationship and
attempt to recruit them into the Communist party and that isn't
a healthy situation. If you think about it----
Mr. Bert. I think I agree it would not be a healthy thing
at the laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever had affiliation with the Communist
movement?
Mr. Bert. So far as I know, no.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever known a Communist?
Mr. Bert. If the people you are questioning here; if any of
them, so far as I know, they aren't and I haven't known any.
Mr. Cohn. You have never been friendly with a person you
had reasonable grounds to believe was a Communist. Is that
right?
Mr. Bert. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. And you never belonged to any Communist front
organizations?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about the United Federal Workers of America?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. American Veterans Committee?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. No organizations whatsoever?
Mr. Bert. I belong to IRE, Institute of Radio Engineering.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mr. Bert. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Any children?
Mr. Bert. Two children.
Mr. Cohn. Would you like them to be taught by a Communist
teacher?
Mr. Bert. I wouldn't like for them to be taught by a
Communist teacher in grade school or high school or in any
school where they could color the thinking.
Mr. Cohn. Suppose you had a Communist professor just
teaching a course he couldn't color the thinking of children,
but he could get to know them after hours as faculty advisor
and things along those lines, worked his trade on them in that
way, would that be all right with you?
Mr. Bert. No.
Mr. Cohn. That is all.
STATEMENT OF RAYMOND DELCAMP
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Delcamp. Raymond William Delcamp.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mr. Delcamp. Long Branch, New Jersey, 643 Westwood Avenue.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you work?
Mr. Delcamp. Evans Signal Corps.
Mr. Cohn. You have clearance?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, how long have you been working at Evans?
Mr. Delcamp. I came to work at Evans in July of 1947.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a fellow named Barry Bernstein?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. William Saltzman?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. William Johnstone Jones?
Mr. Delcamp. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever observe any indication of communism
on the part of those three?
Mr. Delcamp. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever see the Daily Worker around the
place?
Mr. Delcamp. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear any of them make pro-Communist
statements?
Mr. Delcamp. No, not that I can remember.
Mr. Cohn. You never heard them make pro-Communist
statements?
Mr. Delcamp. No.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever called to testify at a loyalty
hearing in any of those cases?
Mr. Delcamp. No. I knew they were having one. I knew that.
Mr. Cohn. How did you know that?
Mr. Delcamp. I learned he was under investigation about
four weeks before he was suspended.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know your name was mentioned in any way?
Mr. Delcamp. Only after Mr. Bernstein told me. He told me
in trying to answer one of the charges he had mentioned my name
as being aware of what his politics were.
Mr. Cohn. Were, you aware of what his politics were?
Mr. Delcamp. Only generally. Only in a very general sort of
way.
Mr. Cohn. You had no specific information?
Mr. Delcamp. No.
Mr. Cohn. I have nothing more.
Mr. Juliana. Did you ever see Bernstein distribute a piece
of literature entitled ``The Atom and the Brass Hat,'' a little
pamphlet?
Mr. Delcamp. I don't recall it.
Mr. Juliana. You never saw it?
Mr. Delcamp. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. That is all.
STATEMENT OF LEO FARY
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please.
Mr. Fary. Leo Fary. Leo Asa Fary
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Fary. Camp Evans.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been employed there?
Mr. Fary. I have been with the government twelve years.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have a clearance?
Mr. Fary. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Cohn. Now, where do you reside?
Mr. Fary. 26 LaFatra Avenue in Eatontown.
Mr. Cohn. What kind of work do you do at Evans?
Mr. Fary. Photography.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you have your training?
Mr. Fary. I started off as an apprentice about twelve years
ago. I spent three years in the navy working practical work to
where I am now.
Mr. Cohn. Was there ever a time when you went down to
Aberdeen Proving Ground to take any pictures?
Mr. Fary. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Fary. I couldn't give you the dates. I have been two or
three times. No, I have been two times--maybe three times.
Mr. Cohn. Which time was it it turned out you had the
``Atomic Cannon''?
Mr. Fary. What was that?
Mr. Cohn. About when was that--that it turned out you had
pictures of the ``Atomic Cannon?''
Mr. Fary. A year and a half or two years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Who instructed you to go down there?
Mr. Fary. Mr. Catelli, my supervisor.
Mr. Cohn. Was he the only one who discussed the trip before
you went?
Mr. Fary. I discussed it with Lovenstein.
Mr. Cohn. Who else?
Mr. Fary. He was the only one.
Mr. Cohn. Now, what did Mr. Lovenstein tell you?
Mr. Fary. I was to go down there and take a photographic
record of radar stock and radar equipment they had down there
and take movies of this gun.
Mr. Cohn. The ``Atomic Cannon''?
Mr. Fary. Right.
Mr. Cohn. Who told you to take pictures of the ``Atomic
Cannon''?
Mr. Fary. Mr. Lovenstein and Mr. Catelli.
Mr. Cohn. Did you think it unusual that they told you to
take picture of that?
Mr. Fary. No, all they talked about was the gun. I didn't
know what it was. I didn't know what kind of gun it was. They
didn't speak of it as the ``Atomic Cannon.''
Mr. Cohn. Is the thing you took a picture of the thing you
were referring to?
Mr. Fary. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. You took a picture and came back?
Mr. Fary. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did you subsequently find out you should not have
taken that picture?
Mr. Fary. I ran into difficulties down there before the
pictures were taken. This Mr. Stewart, who was the engineer in
charge at Aberdeen on this particular project, asked me to get
authority from the people at Aberdeen before I did take
pictures and that I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that subsequently an issue arose----
Mr. Fary. Yes, I know.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't do it on your own?
Mr. Fary. That is right. I was told to take pictures. I
have been questioned before.
Mr. Cohn. You are very sure Mr. Lovenstein told you to take
pictures of the gun, the same one you photographed?
Mr. Fary. He didn't describe it. I just thought it was
another gun.
Mr. Cohn. How did you know the one you took pictures of was
the one he meant?
Mr. Fary. It was the only one there they were doing radar
work on.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man by the name of Harold Ducore?
Mr. Fary. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did Ducore ever tell you to go to Aberdeen?
Mr. Fary. He is the section chief. Lovenstein worked under
him.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever talk to Mr. Ducore before you went
on this occasion?
Mr. Fary. No.
Mr. Cohn. You never had any contact direct?
Mr. Fary. Not on this particular project.
Mr. Cohn. On any other project?
Mr. Fary. Yes, I have projected movies for him and a lot of
other work we have done for him.
Mr. Cohn. Did he ever ask you to take any pictures for him?
Mr. Fary. No.
Mr. Cohn. Never on any occasion?
Mr. Fary. No.
Mr. Cohn. When was your last trip to Aberdeen?
Mr. Fary. I am rough on the dates. I can't remember the
last trip on another project down there. I would say about a
year ago.
Mr. Cohn. Under whose instructions did you go then?
Mr. Fary. Wally Jones.
Mr. Cohn. Who else?
Mr. Fary. Mr. Catelli, my supervisor.
Mr. Juliana. What happened to the film of the ``Atomic
Cannon'' you took at Aberdeen?
Mr. Fary. We had to turn film over to the authorities at
Aberdeen. They had the film processed and classified and it was
a long time later before they sent the film back to us. They
held it.
Mr. Juliana. Why did Lovenstein want a picture of the
cannon, do you know?
Mr. Fary. He had a way of explaining it to me. We have a
lot of other films which belong to that section and he wanted
to make over all film of work the section was doing. He wanted
that included.
Mr. Juliana. What was this movie to be used for?
Mr. Fary. We have visitors, official brass comes through
and they come in and movies projected for them. Movies lots of
times will tell more than a speaker can with pictures and
everything.
Mr. Cohn. That is all. Thank you for coming in.
STATEMENT OF IRVING STOKES
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your full name, please?
Mr. Stokes. Irving Stokes.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you reside?
Mr. Stokes. I can give you my mailing address in a rural
area. RFD #1, Box 184A, Keyport, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Stokes. Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have a clearance?
Mr. Stokes. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Up through what?
Mr. Stokes. Top secret.
Mr. Cohn. What is the nature of your duties?
Mr. Stokes. Chief of the Radar Branch and in this capacity
I have to do radar development for the army.
Mr. Cohn. What is your grade?
Mr. Stokes. GS-15.
Mr. Cohn. What is your salary?
Mr. Stokes. $10,800.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been at Evans?
Mr. Stokes. It was thirteen years in August of this year.
Mr. Cohn. Now, did Mr. Coleman work under you?
Mr. Stokes. Yes, he did.
Mr. COHN Before we get to that, have you ever been a
Communist?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had any connection with the Communist
movement?
Mr. Stokes. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. In any way?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Directly or indirectly?
Mr. Stokes. To the best of my knowledge the answer is
``no.''
Mr. Cohn. Nothing you want to tell us?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Any associations you then believed to be or you
now believe to be Communists?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You never belonged to any Communist organizations
or fronts?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't belong to the American Veterans
Committee chapter?
Mr. Stokes. No, I am not a veteran.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you say Mr. Coleman did work under you?
Mr. Stokes. Yes, he did.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work under you in 1946?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir. Shall I expand on that?
Mr. Cohn. Well, I get frightened when someone wants to
expand.
Mr. Stokes. I don't want to expand too much. I got to the
position as assistant branch chief. Prior to that time Coleman
did not work under me. He worked on the same general level. He
was a section head and I was.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work with him in 1946?
Mr. Stokes. In 1946 I would say, in effect, no.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him in 1946?
Mr. Stokes. Very generally as an employee in the
laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever hear that there was a search
conducted of his home and documents found there?
Mr. Stokes. I heard about it but not in very great detail.
I know of the fact that there was a search made and some
documents found and that was about all.
Mr. Cohn. You didn't hear it officially?
Mr. Stokes. Through gossip.
Mr. Cohn. You had no part in that or the steps taken?
Mr. Stokes. No, that was completely independent from my
operation.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever have any knowledge of any documents
being missing from Evans Signal Laboratory?
Mr. Stokes. Now.
Mr. Cohn. Or at any time in the past?
Mr. Stokes. From time to time there has been the need to
clear up people leaving the laboratory at which time charges
were reviewed and maybe a document was initially missing.
Whether they are found later on, I do not know.
Actually, I want to say through this large number of years
and with all of the documents handled, there is a certain
measure of difficulty deciding whether documents are lost at
the present time or misplaced.
Mr. Cohn. Is there any situation which concerned you
particularly?
Mr. Stokes. The closest situation concerns my membership
research and development board. I had a lot of documents I
wanted to burn in the proper manner. I had a long list made out
of documents to burn which I turned over to an officer and he
unwittingly burned the list of the documents as well as the
documents. I sent letters to the appropriate G-2 channels.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Stokes. I would say that was in order, less than two
years ago. Since I have been in the top position in the branch.
Maybe it is a year and a half, maybe a year.
And we attempted at that time immediately to recall or
remember all of the documents we had on that list. There were
three officers involved. Since then there has been a change in
technique.
We do not let all of the copies of the list go with the
destroying officer any longer.
Mr. Cohn. Are there any situations concerning current
missing documents which you are disturbed with?
Mr. Stokes. The one disturbing factor, because of the large
volume, we have not had people sign for every individual sheet
of paper. We have had to, because of administrative factors,
attempted to inventory our material in folders, groups of
folders. However, with the current operation day to day, it has
been exceedingly difficult to keep these things current. Sheets
going into folders and sheets going out. We are doing business
in the field every day, contractual business, letter from
Washington and the like. I do have a feeling now that we
haven't got every single sheet of paper tied down and assigned
every individual.
Mr. Cohn. Has there ever been instances of papers destroyed
without authority which has come to your attention?
Mr. Stokes. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. Cohn. Not at any time?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Did you authorize the making of carbon copies of
classified documents?
Mr. Stokes. Specifically, no; generally, yes. There are
certain rules of behavior for all top officials.
Mr. Cohn. If someone gets a secret document, can he have
five carbon copies made and not make any record of that?
Mr. Stokes. Not at the present time. There was a time when
there were no restrictions against the making of copies of
secret material.
Mr. Cohn. Then what is the purpose of keeping close track
of secret documents if you can make carbon copies and make no
record of the carbon copies?
Mr. Stokes. I agree with what you are leading up to, but
they shouldn't make carbon copies--I have known of no instances
where carbon copies were made except for official purposes. In
answering a secret letter you make a carbon copy and the copy
forms a complete----
Mr. Cohn. We had a witness, Mr. Inslerman, who testified
his secretary would make five or six carbons of different
secret documents and keep no record of the number of carbons
made.
Mr. Stokes. That was true. It isn't true any longer.
Mr. Cohn. That seems to defeat the whole purpose.
Mr. Stokes. That is so. As a matter of fact, for the
longest time they did not serialize secret documents and if
five copies were made and one gets lost, you have no idea whose
copy you recover.
Mr. Cohn. Up until when? When were the final corrective
steps taken?
Mr. Stokes. The issuance of 380-5-1.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Stokes. I am guessing in the order of a couple of
months ago.
Mr. Cohn. Has there been any further communication since
that time?
Mr. Stokes. I would say the advent of the committee's
operation has caused a considerable tightening up.
Mr. Cohn. Are you now satisfied with things over there?
Mr. Stokes. Not at the moment satisfied, but we are moving
in the proper direction. I feel in the near future we will have
every single sheet of paper tied down. We are now in the
process of clearing out dusty files, destroying them,
inventorying everything else.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you working from 1940 to 1943?
Mr. Stokes. At the laboratories at Sandy Hook. This was
when radar was in its infancy. I came to the laboratory in
1940.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you get your education?
Mr. Stokes. Newark College of Engineering.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joel Barr?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Alfred Sarant?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Vivian Glassman?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Eleanor Glassman?
Mr. Stokes. No.
Mr. Cohn. Joseph Levitsky?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. Stokes. I knew of him. I didn't know him.
Mr. Cohn. You knew him when he was connected with Watson?
Mr. Stokes. No. I think he was at Evans at one time, tied
in with the CIO union activities. That was when the union
attempted to get a foothold in the laboratory. I did not know
him except to see him once or twice.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you in 1944 and 1945?
Mr. Stokes. I was at Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. Cohn. Now, would it have been proper in 1944 for
someone who had worked at Evans, then out on military leave, to
have people who were working at Evans send him classified
information through the mail? Would it be proper for them to
receive classified information from Evans?
Mr. Stokes. Only through appropriate channels, not outside
of appropriate channels.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, if I were working at Evans and
went into the service, I couldn't write a letter to a friend
and tell him to get me such and such and such and such and mail
them to me?
Mr. Stokes. Not for classified material. Not unless it is
through channels. We had had an officer who was at the Army War
College and he had to give a talk on radar and he asked me for
radar information. Once again, this was well documented and
sent properly.
Mr. Cohn. You wouldn't just pull it out and send it? You
would make an official record and get approval?
Mr. Stokes. Absolutely. No question about it.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a man named Fred Kitty?
Mr. Stokes. I am not sure. I served on a Civil Service
Commission board at one time and I think Mr. Kitty was on
there. I would have to see the man.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a loyalty board?
Mr. Stokes. The Civil Service Commission was overloaded on
marking test papers of people trying to get jobs and we were
helping.
Mr. Cohn. Have you had any connection with the loyalty set
up?
Mr. Stokes. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Thank you very much.
[Whereupon, the hearing adjourned.]
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Joseph H. Percoff (1908-1986) testified in
public session on December 11, 1953. Abraham Chasanow (1910-
1989), Solomon Greenberg (1916-2001), Isadore Solomon (1921-
1982), William Saltzman (1917-2000); and Samuel Sack (1911-
1977), did not testify publicly.]
----------
TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 3, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met (pursuant to Senate Resolution 40,
agreed to January 30, 1953) at 2:00 p.m., room 36, Federal
Building, New York City, N.Y., Senator Joseph R. McCarthy,
presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Francis P. Carr, executive director; Roy M.
Cohn, chief counsel; G. David Schine, chief consultant; Daniel
G. Buckley, assistant counsel; James Juliana, investigator.
TESTIMONY OF ABRAHAM CHASANOW (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
JOSEPH A. FANELLI)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn,
please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in the matter now in hearing will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Chasanow. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get counsel's name for the record?
Mr. Fanelli. Joseph A. Fanelli. I am a member of the
District of Columbia Bar, 736 Wyatt Building, Washington, D.C.
The Chairman. Mr. Fanelli, in view of the fact that you
haven't appeared before the committee before, let me briefly
run over the committee rules. As far as counsel is concerned,
his client can consult with him at any time he cares to and you
may advise him at any time you care to. If at any time you feel
you want a private conference, we will arrange for that. The
only restriction is that counsel cannot take part in the
proceedings. You can speak as freely as you care to through and
to your client.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get your name?
Mr. Chasanow. Abraham Chasanow.
Mr. Cohn. And where do you reside?
Mr. Chasanow. 11 T Ridge Road, Greenbelt, Maryland.
Mr. Cohn. And you are an attorney by profession?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When and where were you admitted?
Mr. Chasanow. I was admitted to the District of Columbia
Bar in 1934.
Mr. Cohn. And have you ever worked for the U.S. government?
Mr. Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Chasanow. Since April 16, 1930.
Mr. Cohn. With what agencies?
Mr. Chasanow. First I was with Census Bureau on a temporary
job and with the War Department as a permanent employee; then I
went to work for the Hydrographic Office as a permanent
employee. Hydrographic Office of the navy.
Mr. Cohn. What were your duties, very briefly?
Mr. Chasanow. My job was primarily inventory control.
Mr. Cohn. For the Navy Hydrographic Office?
Mr Chasanow. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. What was your salary?
Mr. Chasanow. $8,360 a year.
Mr. Cohn. On what grounds were you suspended?
Mr. Chasanow. Do you want me to enumerate those?
The Chairman. Do you have the letter of charges with you?
Mr. Fanelli. What we have is in his answer. We 