[107 Senate Committee Prints]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access]
[DOCID: f:83872.wais]
S. Prt. 107-84
EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON
INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE
ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
=======================================================================
VOLUME 4
__________
EIGHTY-THIRD CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
1953
MADE PUBLIC JANUARY 2003
Printed for the use of the Committee on Governmental Affairs
______
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COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
107th Congress, Second Session
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan FRED THOMPSON, Tennessee
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TED STEVENS, Alaska
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Staff Director and Counsel
Richard A. Hertling, Minority Staff Director
Darla D. Cassell, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
CARL LEVIN, Michigan, Chairman
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii, SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois TED STEVENS, Alaska
ROBERT G. TORRICELLI, New Jersey GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MAX CLELAND, Georgia THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
MARK DAYTON, Minnesota JIM BUNNING, Kentucky
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois
Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Kim Corthell, Minority Staff Director
Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk
COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
83rd Congress, First Session
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas
MARGARET CHASE SMITH, Maine HUBERT H. HUMPHREY, Minnesota
HENRY C. DWORSHAK, Idaho HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois JOHN F. KENNEDY, Massachusetts
JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan ALTON A. LENNON, North Carolina
Francis D. Flanagan, Chief Counsel
Walter L. Reynolds, Chief Clerk
------
PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS
JOSEPH R. McCARTHY, Wisconsin, Chairman
KARL E. MUNDT, South Dakota JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas \1\
EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois HENRY M. JACKSON, Washington \1\
CHARLES E. POTTER, Michigan STUART SYMINGTON, Missouri \1\
Roy M. Cohn, Chief Counsel
Francis P. Carr, Executive Director
Ruth Young Watt, Chief Clerk
assistant counsels
Robert F. Kennedy Donald A. Surine
Thomas W. La Venia Jerome S. Adlerman
Donald F. O'Donnell C. George Anastos
Daniel G. Buckley
investigators
Robert J. McElroy
Herbert S. Hawkins James N. Juliana
G. David Schine, Chief Consultant
Karl H. W. Baarslag, Director of Research
Carmine S. Bellino, Consulting Accountant
La Vern J. Duffy, Staff Assistant
----------
\1\ The Democratic members were absent from the subcommittee from
July 10, 1953 to January 25, 1954.
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Volume 4
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 23.......... 2729
Testimony of Sidney Glassman; David Ayman; Lawrence Friedman;
Elba Chase Nelson; Herbert S. Bennett; Joseph H. Percoff;
Lawrence Aguimbau; and Perry Seay.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 26.......... 2777
Statements of Benjamin Zuckerman; Hans Inslerman; Thomas K.
Cookson; Doris Seifert; Lafayette Pope; Ralph Iannarone;
Saul Finkelstein; Abraham Lepato; Irving Rosenheim; and
Richard Jones, Jr.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 27.......... 2815
Statements of Edward Brody; Max Katz; Henry Jasik; Capt.
Benjamin Sheehan; Russell Gaylord Ranney; Susan Moon; Peter
Rosmovsky; and Sarah Omanson.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, October 30.......... 2851
Statements of Harold Ducore; Stanley R. Rich; Nathan Sussman;
Louis Leo Kaplan; Carl Greenblum; Sherrod East; Jacob
Kaplan; James P. Scott; Bernard Lee; and Melvin M. Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 2.......... 2893
Statements of William Johnstone Jones; Murray Narell; Samuel
Sack; Joseph Bert; Raymond Delcamp; Leo Fary; and Irving
Stokes.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 3.......... 2919
Testimony of Abraham Chasanow; Joseph H. Percoff; Solomon
Greenberg; Isadore Solomon; William Saltzman; and Samuel
Sack.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 4.......... 2953
Testimony of Victor Rabinowitz; Wendell Furry; Diana Wolman;
Abraham Brothman; Norman Gaboriault; Harvey Sachs; Sylvia
Berke; and Benjamin Wolman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 5.......... 3033
Testimony of Harry Hyman; Vivian Glassman Pataki; Gunnar
Boye; Alexander Hindin; Samuel Paul Gisser; Stanley
Berinsky; Ralph Schutz; and Henry Shoiket.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 16......... 3083
Testimony of Rear Admiral Edward Culligan Forsyth; Samuel
Snyder; Ernest Pataki; Albert Socol; Joseph K. Crevisky;
Ignatius Giardina; and Leon Schnee.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 17......... 3125
Testimony of James Weinstein; Harry Grundfest; Harry
Pastorinsky; Emery Pataki; and Charles Jassik.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, November 25......... 3151
Testimony of Morris Savitt; Albert Fischler; James J. Matles;
Bertha Singer; and Terry Rosenbaum.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10......... 3171
Testimony of Michael Sidorovich; and Ann Sidorovich.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 10......... 3175
Statement of Samuel Levine.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 14......... 3199
Testimony of Albert Shadowitz; Pvt. David Linfield; Shirley
Shapiro; and Sidney Stolberg.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 15......... 3221
Testimony of Ezekiel Heyman; Lester Ackerman; Sigmond Berger;
Ruth Levine; Bennett Davies; John D. Saunders; Norman
Spiro; Carter Lemuel Burkes; John R. Simkovich; Linda
Gottfried; Joseph Paul Komar; John Anthony DeLuca; and Sam
Morris.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 16......... 3273
Testimony of Wilbur LePage; Martin Levine; John Schickler;
David Lichter; Albert Burrows; Seymour Butensky; and
Kenneth John Way.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 17......... 3309
Statements of Irving Israel Galex; Harry Lipson; Seymour
Janowsky; Harry M. Nachmais; Curtis Quinten Murphy; Martin
Schmidt; and David Holtzman.
Army Signal Corps--Subversion and Espionage, December 18......... 3349
Statements of Joseph John Oliveri; Philip Joseph Shapiro;
Samuel Martin Segner; Joseph Linton Layne; and Harry
William Levitties.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase,
October 19..................................................... 3403
Testimony of William H. Taylor; and Alvin W. Hall.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase,
October 21..................................................... 3425
Testimony of Elizabeth Bentley.
Transfer of Occupation Currency Plates--Espionage Phase, November
10............................................................. 3431
Statement of Walter F. Frese.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 12.................................................... 3445
Testimony of Jean A. Arsenault; Sidney Friedlander; Theresa
Mary Chiaro; Albert J. Bottisti; Anna Jegabbi; Emma
Elizabeth Drake; Henry Daniel Hughes; Abden Francisco;
Joseph Arthur Gebhardt; Emanuel Fernandez; Robert Pierson
Northrup; Lawrence Leo Gebo; William J. Mastriani; Gordon
Belgrave; Arthur Lee Owens; John Sardella; and Rudolph
Rissland.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 13.................................................... 3545
Testimony of Lillian Krummel; Dewey Franklin Brashear; Arthur
George; Higeno Hermida; Paul F. Hacko; Alex Henry Klein;
Harold S. Rollins; and John Starling Brooks.
Subversion and Espionage in Defense Establishments and Industry,
November 18.................................................... 3585
Testimony of Karl T. Mabbskka; James John Walsh; Nathaniel
Mills; Robert Goodwin; Henry Canning Archdeacon; Donald
Herbert Morrill; Francis F. Peacock; William Richmond
Wilder; Donald R. Finlayson; Theodore Pappas; George Homes;
Alexander Gregory; Witoutos S. Bolys; Benjamin Alfred; and
Witulad Pierarski.
Transfer of the Ship ``Greater Buffalo,'' December 8............. 3607
Testimony of Paul D. Page, Jr.; and George J. Kolowich.
Personnel Practices in Government--Case of Telford Taylor,
December 8..................................................... 3637
Testimony of Philip Young.
ARMY SIGNAL CORPS--SUBVERSION AND ESPIONAGE
[Editor's note.--Sidney Glassman testified in public
session on December 16, 1953. Joseph H. Percoff (1908-1986) and
Louise Sarant (1923-1997) testified in public on December 11.
David Ayman (1907-1999), Lawrence Friedman, Elba Chase Nelson
(1889-1967), Herbert S. Bennett, Norman Levinson (1912-1975),
Lawrence Aguimbau, and Perry Seay did not testify in public.]
----------
FRIDAY, OCTOBER 23, 1953
U.S. Senate,
Senate Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations
of the Committee on Government Operations,
New York, NY.
The subcommittee met at 10:30 a.m., pursuant to recess, in
room 29, Federal Building, New York, Senator Joseph R. McCarthy
(chairman) presiding.
Present: Senator Joseph R. McCarthy, Republican, Wisconsin.
Present also: Roy M. Cohn, chief counsel; Francis Carr,
staff director; Daniel G. Buckley, assistant counsel; Harold
Rainville, administrative assistant to Senator Dirksen; and
Robert Jones, research assistant to Senator Potter.
Present also: John Adams, counselor to the Secretary of the
Department of the Army; and Maj. Gen. Kirke B. Lawton.
The Chairman. Will you stand and be sworn? In this matter
now in hearing before this committee, do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?
Mr. Glassman. I do.
The Chairman. Will you give the reporter your full name?
TESTIMONY OF SIDNEY GLASSMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
VICTOR ABRAMOWITZ)
Mr. Glassman. Sidney Glassman.
The Chairman. And how long since you worked in the Signal
Corps Lab?
Mr. Glassman. Excuse me. Where?
The Chairman. How long since you worked for the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Glassman. For the Signal Corps?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Glassman. I am sorry.
The Chairman. Have you ever worked for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I worked for the Signal Corps Procurement
District.
The Chairman. When was that?
Mr. Glassman. In 1942.
The Chairman. You started in 1942?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Will you speak a little louder? I can not
hear you.
Mr. Glassman. I started in February 1942.
The Chairman. And you worked from February '42 until when?
Mr. Glassman. Until about October 1942.
The Chairman. And then did you quit, or were you
discharged?
Mr. Glassman. I quit to go into the army.
The Chairman. And what branch of the army were you in?
Mr. Glassman. I was in the Signal Corps.
The Chairman. In the Signal Corps in the army. And were you
in as a civilian employee?
Mr. Glassman. I don't quite understand.
The Chairman. Were you a civilian, when you were in the
army?
Mr. Glassman. No. I was a member of the armed forces.
The Chairman. What was your rank?
Mr. Glassman. You mean my last rank, I presume?
The Chairman. When you went in.
Mr. Glassman. Sergeant. I was a sergeant when I was
discharged.
The Chairman. You went in as what?
Mr. Glassman. As a private.
The Chairman. You were discharged as a private?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. And when were you discharged?
Mr. Glassman. In December of 1944.
The Chairman. Where were you stationed?
Mr. Glassman. For most of my time, I was stationed in
England, and the last part of my army career prior to the time
I was wounded was in Normandy.
The Chairman. And you were wounded in 1944, were you?
Mr. Glassman. That is right, in July.
The Chairman. In July. And you were discharged in December
of '44?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. An honorable discharge?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, it was a CDD.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Glassman. A CDD.
The Chairman. What is a CDD?
Mr. Glassman. Because of my wounds.
The Chairman. And then where did you go to work?
Mr. Glassman. I went to school.
The Chairman. Where did you go to school?
Mr. Glassman. I went to school at Columbia University.
The Chairman. Columbia. And what courses did you take
there? What did you major in?
Mr. Glassman. Economics and statistics.
The Chairman. Economics and statistics. And when did you
leave Columbia?
Mr. Glassman. I left in about August of 1946, though I
still took a course or two at night after that.
The Chairman. Did you go back to work for the government
then?
Mr. Glassman. No, I did not. I worked for about a month
during the summer for a professor, doing some statistical work
for him. I think he was doing some labor statistics for the
government.
The Chairman. That was professor who?
Mr. Glassman. His name was Hsu, I believe.
The Chairman. How do you spell that?
Mr. Glassman. H-s-u.
The Chairman. What is his first name?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall. I think it was Francis.
The Chairman. Was he Chinese?
Mr. Glassman. I think so.
The Chairman. He was Chinese?
Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
The Chairman. Was he a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis----
The Chairman. Will you speak up a little louder?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that on the basis of the
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Then was this professor doing work for the
government?
Mr. Glassman. I think he was.
The Chairman. Do you know what branch of the government he
was working for?
Mr. Glassman. No. He was doing some labor work, labor
research statistics, for something, but I don't recall exactly
for what branch.
The Chairman. And you worked for him for about one month,
in 1946?
Mr. Glassman. No, I think it was 1945.
The Chairman. That is while you were still going to school?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. What did you get paid for that work?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall the exact amount, but I think
the rate was at a P-2 salary at that time.
The Chairman. And after you left school, where did you go
to work?
Mr. Glassman. I went to work for the United Nations.
The Chairman. And what branch, what department, what
agency?
Mr. Glassman. I was in economic affairs.
The Chairman. Who recommended you for that job?
Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Certainly.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. I don't know if I had any direct
recommendations. I had a number of letters from various
professors that one normally gets when you get out of school.
The Chairman. What professors?
Mr. Glassman. Professor Goodrich.
The Chairman. He is from Columbia?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. Professor Mills.
The Chairman. Mills?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I think there was also one--I don't know
whether he was a professor. Eastwood.
The Chairman. Eastwood.
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall any others.
The Chairman. What was Goodrich's first name?
Mr. Glassman. Carter, I believe.
The Chairman. C-a-r-t-e-r?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. And what was Mills' first name?
Mr. Glassman. I don't know, I think it was F.
The Chairman. And Eastwood? Where does he work?
Mr. Glassman. He is at Columbia, too.
The Chairman. He is a teacher?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I believe he is.
The Chairman. You do not know his first name, do you?
Mr. Glassman. I don't recall his first name.
The Chairman. Now, was Goodrich known to you to be a member
of the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of the
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. How about Mills?
Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
The Chairman. How about Eastwood?
Mr. Glassman. On the same grounds.
The Chairman. Then how long did you work in the UN?
Mr. Glassman. About six years.
The Chairman. From '46 until when? '52?
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I believe it was until '52.
The Chairman. What time in '52 did you leave the UN?
Mr. Glassman. I think it was in December.
The Chairman. December of last year?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. What salary were you getting in the UN?
Mr. Glassman. In '52? I think it was about $8,500 gross.
The Chairman. Was that tax-exempt?
Mr. Glassman. No. Well, my net salary was around $6,000-
something, on which I paid taxes, and for which the UN
reimbursed me.
The Chairman. In other words, the UN paid you for whatever
taxes you paid; is that right? So that when you arrive at a
figure of $8,500, you take your $6,000 and add to that whatever
they reimbursed you? Is that how you arrived at the figure of
$8,500?
Mr. Glassman. No, there was a UN tax assessment, that
brought you down to $6,000.
The Chairman. Were you a member of the Communist party
while you were in the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that, on the basis of my
privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Were you engaged in espionage while you were
in the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. I was not.
The Chairman. You were not engaged in any espionage?
Mr. Glassman. I was not.
The Chairman. Did you ever remove any classified material
from the Army Signal Corps?
Mr. Glassman. First of all, what do you mean by
``classified material''?
The Chairman. What do you think I mean? You have been in
the Signal Corps handling it.
Mr. Glassman. I never said that I handled any material. I
don't know what you mean, but if you mean secret material----
The Chairman. Then we will explain to you. Either secret,
confidential, or restricted.
Mr. Glassman. No, I don't think I ever did.
The Chairman. You do not think you ever handled any
classified material?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. How about when you were preparing the
material for the Chinese Communist professor? Did you handle
classified material there?
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I never testified that anybody was a Chinese
Communist professor.
The Chairman. Well, let us drop the ``Communist'' and say:
when you were working for the Chinese professor, Francis Hsu.
Mr. Glassman. I never was aware of any confidential
material.
The Chairman. You did not see anything that was stamped
``confidential,'' ``secret,'' ``restricted''?
Mr. Glassman. Not that I can recall.
The Chairman. When you were working in the UN, did you have
access to any confidential, secret, or restricted material?
Mr. Glassman. I don't know of any confidential material at
the UN.
The Chairman. I did not get your answer.
Mr. Glassman. I said, I don't know of any confidential
material at the UN. Most all the stuff I worked on were public
reports.
The Chairman. Why did you leave the UN?
Mr. Glassman. I was terminated, in December.
The Chairman. I see. And what were the grounds of your
termination? I am not asking you whether the charges against
you were true or not. I am just asking you what the charges
were, the basis upon which you were terminated.
Mr. Glassman. I was terminated for declining to answer
certain questions before a congressional committee.
The Chairman. Did you refuse to answer whether you were an
espionage agent at that time?
Mr. Glassman. I don't think I was ever asked that question.
The Chairman. If you were, you answered that question, did
you?
Mr. Glassman. I am sorry. I didn't quite understand.
The Chairman. If you were asked whether you were an
espionage agent, did you answer the question?
Mr. Glassman. I think you asked me something similar to
that previously, just before.
The Chairman. We are not talking about the grounds for your
being discharged from the UN. You said you refused to answer
certain questions before a congressional committee.
Mr. Glassman. That was not one of the questions that was
asked me.
The Chairman. I see. Okay, were you engaged in espionage at
any time over the past ten years?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. The answer is ``no''? Did you ever associate
with individuals whom you knew or had reason to suspect were
engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. May I consult with counsel?
The Chairman. Certainly.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
The Chairman. You don't think so?
Mr. Glassman. As far as I know.
The Chairman. Your answer is that as far as you know, you
have not been associated in the past ten years with anyone whom
you knew or had reason to suspect was engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Is that correct?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Do you know anyone who has been engaged in
espionage, to your knowledge?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. The answer is ``no''?
Mr. Glassman. ``No.''
The Chairman. Do you know anyone that you suspect might
have been engaged in espionage?
Mr. Glassman. No. I don't think I would.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
basis of the privilege of the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Is it your opinion that the Communist party
advocates the overthrow of this government by force and
violence?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
same grounds.
The Chairman. Have you ever engaged in any activities
which, in your opinion, were a violation of any of our laws,
the laws of this country, in connection with any Communist
party activities or membership in the Communist party?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question, on the
basis of my privilege under the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. Mr. Glassman, are you a citizen of the United
States?
Mr. Glassman. I am.
Mr. Jones. As a citizen, would you oppose any group
advocating the overthrow of this government?
Mr. Glassman. I would decline to answer that question, on
the grounds of the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. You served in the army?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I did.
Mr. Jones. While a member of the army, you opposed a group
advocating the overthrow of this government.
Mr. Glassman. Do you mean Nazi Germany?
Mr. Jones. The enemy, yes.
Mr. Glassman. Yes. I fought in the war.
Mr. Jones. Now, you say under the Fifth Amendment you
refuse to answer at the present time whether you would oppose
any group that would overthrow the government?
Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Jones. Does the Communist party, in your mind, advocate
the violent overthrow of this government?
Mr. Glassman. I stand on the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. Did you ever, to your knowledge, see or
handle any classified material, government documents? By
``classified,'' I mean restricted, secret, or confidential.
Mr. Glassman. Not that I can remember.
The Chairman. After you left the UN, where did you go to
work?
Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
The Chairman. Pardon?
Mr. Glassman. I went into a manufacturing business.
The Chairman. What business is that?
Mr. Glassman. Furniture manufacturing.
The Chairman. Furniture? What is the name of that company?
Mr. Glassman. It is the Herrschaft Products.
The Chairman. How do you spell that?
Mr. Glassman. H-e-r-r-s-c-h-a-f-t.
The Chairman. Who were your partners in that, if any?
Mr. Glassman. Well, it is a corporation. I suppose you
would like to know the officers of the corporation?
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Glassman. Mr. Herrrschaft, myself, and my wife are the
officers of the corporation.
The Chairman. Do you have a family?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
The Chairman. How old is the oldest one?
Mr. Glassman. The oldest? You mean child, I suppose?
The Chairman. The oldest child.
Mr. Glassman. About four.
The Chairman. Has your wife ever worked for the government?
Mr. Glassman. I don't think so.
[Mr. Glassman confers with Mr. Abramowitz.]
Mr. Glassman. Except that she was in the armed forces.
The Chairman. Was she a WAC?
Mr. Glassman. She was a WAC.
The Chairman. You took an oath when you entered the army to
uphold the Constitution of the United States. Did you feel then
that you would uphold the Constitution, or did you feel that
this government should be destroyed by force and violence?
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr. Glassman. Yes, I do.
The Chairman. Will you name them?
Mr. Glassman. I have two sisters.
The Chairman. And what are their names?
Mr. Glassman. Sylvia and Doris.
The Chairman. Is their last name the same as yours now?
Mr. Glassman. No, they are not.
The Chairman. What are their names?
Mr. Glassman. Doris Lesansky----
The Chairman. Let me ask you first: Is either of them now
working for the government?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. Have either of them worked for the
government?
Mr. Glassman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Are they married now?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. You need not bother with their names. You are
pretty sure they have not worked for the government. They have
not worked for the government to your knowledge?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. And how many brothers do you have?
Mr. Glassman. I don't have any brothers.
The Chairman. Are your mother and dad living?
Mr. Glassman. Yes.
The Chairman. Are they working for the government, or have
they?
Mr. Glassman. No.
The Chairman. Is your wife a member of the Communist party
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer that question.
The Chairman. Was she a member before you married her?
[Mr. Abramowitz confers with Mr. Glassman.]
Mr. Glassman. I decline to answer, on the basis of the
Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. On the basis of the Fifth Amendment. I assume
you declined to answer the first question on the basis of the
marriage relationship. Is that correct? Or the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Glassman. Both, I think.
The Chairman. Both. You had no connection with the Signal
Corps, then, since December of 1944?
Mr. Glassman. That is right.
The Chairman. Would you stand and be sworn?
In the matter now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the
testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
TESTIMONY OF DAVID AYMAN
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. May we have your full name for the record?
Mr. Ayman. David Ayman, A-y-m-a-n. 1612 Lincoln Place,
Brooklyn.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mr. Ayman, were you ever in the Signal
Corps?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In what year?
Mr. Ayman. 1942 to 1946. Let me clarify that. I was in the
Signal Corps but in the last year I was attached to the air
force.
Mr. Cohn. You were in the Signal Corps but from 1945 to
1946 you were attached to the air force?
Mr. Ayman. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Were you stationed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Ayman. Two years: 1942 to 1944.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you stationed when in the air force?
Mr. Ayman. Hawaii.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work down at Monmouth?
Mr. Ayman. I was working in Officer Candidate School.
Mr. Cohn. For two years?
Mr. Ayman. I was drafted in April 1942. I took my basic
training, three or four weeks specialized training, then was
sent to Officers Candidate School and I got a commission in
October, approximately, 1942 and then I was assigned to
instruct at OCS. That was the first assignment.
Mr. Cohn. What do you do now?
Mr. Ayman. I am a school teacher.
Mr. Cohn. Do you teach at the Samuel Tilden High School?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Ayman. I have been at Samuel Tilden since 1936.
Mr. Cohn. You have taught there continuously since 1936?
Mr. Ayman. Except time in the army or leave of absence for
official business.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Are you a member of the Teachers Union? \1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ Accused of Communist leanings, the Teachers Union of New York
was expelled from the American Federation of Teachers in 1940 and
affiliated with the United Public Workers of America, a CIO union. In
1952 and 1953 it was investigated by the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been associated with any Communists
in the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. Bella Dodd is a Communist.\2\ That is the only
one officially I would know. I know no other one of my own
knowledge.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\2\ Dr. Bella V. Dodd (1904-1969) served as legislative
representative for the Teachers Union from 1938 to 1944, before
formally joining the Communist party and being elected to its national
committee. She was expelled from the party in 1949, and later discussed
her experiences in testimony before the Senate Internal Security
Subcommittee and in an autobiography, School of Darkness (New York:
P.J. Kenedy, 1954).
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mr. Cohn. Do you have reasonable grounds to believe there
are others who are Communists?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. In other words, with the exception of Bella Dodd,
you have never known a person you believed to be a Communist in
the Teachers Union. Is that right?
Mr. Ayman. That is right, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you ever represent any teachers, Teachers
Union members, with the New York Board of Education in any
respect?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Ayman. I represented some people before Moskoff, who
does some work for the Board of Education. He is the counsel
for the committee for the Board of Education interrogating
individuals, I presume, on the basis of information he has
about them.
Mr. Cohn. And you represented some of those persons?
Mr. Ayman. As teacher-advisor.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of those persons Communists?
Mr. Ayman. None of them ever told me they were Communists
and I never asked them.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of them claim the Fifth Amendment when
questioned?
Mr. Ayman. No. The Fifth Amendment was not claimed in my
presence.
Mr. Cohn. Was the Fifth Amendment ever claimed?
Mr. Ayman. No, not while I was there.
Mr. Cohn. I don't care whether you were there. Did you ever
hear that any of those persons you represented as teacher-
advisor claimed the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I never heard it.
Mr. Cohn. How many people did you so represent?
Mr. Ayman. Eight or ten.
Mr. Cohn. What are their names?
Mr. Ayman. Let's see. The last one was Lee Naguid. That is
the last one I represented. The one before that was Louis
Auerbach. Another one I represented was Samuel Chapman. The
other names don't occur to me at the moment. Those are the last
three.
One other, Mr. Klein. I don't know what his first name is.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of those teachers suspended as a result
of the hearing before Mr. Moskoff?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. One, Auerbach. I didn't represent Mr.
Auerbach before Mr. Moskoff, when he appeared. I represented
Mr. Auerbach before Mr. Perch.
Mr. Cohn. Now, how many of these were suspended as a
result----
Mr. Ayman. The only one I know, can think of, is Mr.
Auerbach. The others have not been suspended.
Mr. Cohn. Why was Mr. Auerbach suspended?
Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer any questions that Mr.
Perch asked him.
Mr. Cohn. Didn't he claim the Fifth Amendment?
Mr. Ayman. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership.
Mr. Cohn. He refused to answer questions concerning
Communist party membership?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Did that give you reasonable grounds to believe
he was a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You don't think somebody who refuses to answer
the question of whether or not they are a Communist, you don't
think that furnishes reasonable grounds to believe that person
is a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. It is hard for me to make a judgment of a thing
like that. There are things a person may believe in. He may
feel this type of thing doesn't involve this type of activity.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe Communists should teach in the New
York school system?
Mr. Ayman. I believe a person ought to be judged.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe a Communist party member should
teach in the New York City school system? That is a very simple
question. Just answer ``yes'' or ``no.''
Mr. Ayman. Well, my own feeling about this, that answer is
not quite as simple as you put it.
Mr. Cohn. Answer ``yes'' or ``no,'' then you can make any
explanation you care to give us.
Mr. Ayman. My answer would be ``yes,'' provided, of course,
this person did not engage in activities in the school system
in which he used his position to officially propagandize for
the Communist party or any other group.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think that a member of the Communist party
would not use any position he held to propagandize and attempt
in every way to aid the cause of the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Well, I would say this. Any person who believed
strongly in any position he held, it might be possible for him,
not necessarily and I believe necessarily that he would not
actually use his position to do that. It is possible for him to
do that.
Mr. Cohn. Do you believe it is possible for a Communist
party member not to use any position he holds?
Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't be in a position to answer that?
Mr. Cohn. I think you should be. You are teaching children
in the public schools in New York.
Mr. Ayman. My function as advisor was to see that these
people don't get rattled. I am not legal counsel. I can give
them no legal advice. They wanted somebody to go up there and
make sure they were represented.
The Chairman. Is it your position that a man who is a
member of the Communist party should not be barred from a
teaching job unless it is first proven that he is using his
membership-unless it is proved he is teaching communism to his
students?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. That was not my position.
The Chairman. Do you think that mere membership in the
Communist party and nothing else should bar him from teaching?
Mr. Ayman. Off-hand, I would say no.
The Chairman. You would say it takes more than that?
Mr. Ayman. That is my opinion. My feeling is this.
The Chairman. What more would it take?
Mr. Ayman. Some act, some either technical act as a teacher
in the classroom or in connection with the school system which
he used to actually propagandize in one form or another about
this proposition that should cause him to be eliminated.
The Chairman. You realize the more clever the Communist is,
the less possibility of catching him in the acts?
Mr. Ayman. That is possible.
The Chairman. You might catch the dumb ones, but the clever
ones you wouldn't catch. You would say that unless you catch
the Communist, know that he attended Communist meetings, unless
you catch him in the overt act of propagandizing, unless you
catch him doing something like that, you should keep him on as
a teacher?
Mr. Ayman. Not only Communist, anybody else. Fascists. I
believe in some other kinds of systems, the same thing is true
about those individuals as well.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about the Communist
movement?
Mr. Ayman. Not enough to make judgment about it.
The Chairman. Do you know what is meant by being under
Communist party discipline?
Mr. Ayman. Well, in my mind, under discipline, he accepts
the dictates from the Communist party. I assume it means----
The Chairman. Do you mean in good standing of the party and
must obey orders?
Mr. Ayman. I can't make such a statement. I am not a
member.
The Chairman. If you were told now--witnesses have
testified over and over, witnesses the government considers
reliable men, who were active in the Communist party--Bella
Dodd whom you knew testified such is the case; that a member in
good standing is under Communist discipline and obeys orders.
Would you have any reason to doubt that? Do you have any
information to the contrary?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I do not have information to the
contrary.
The Chairman. Don't you think a teacher, regardless of how
good a teacher he might be, should be a free agent and should
not be under the discipline of any organizations, particularly
the Communist party dominated by Moscow?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I believe that not only about those
but everybody else.
The Chairman. Do you still say someone under Communist
party discipline should be allowed to teach, realizing they are
not free agents, no freedom of expression but expression of the
Communist line. Do you still say you think such a man should be
teaching our children unless he is caught in the overt act?
Mr. Ayman. My own feeling is, as I said before, that is a
belief I have. Whether it is a good belief or a bad one, it
would be a question of somebody besides myself to be able to
answer.
The Chairman We are not trying to change your beliefs. We
are just curious as to what your beliefs are on communism. We
are not concerned with your other beliefs. We are concerned
with your belief or attitude toward the international
conspiracy.
Mr. Ayman. The international conspiracy, I am not in a
position to make judgment. I am not sufficiently well
acquainted with it. It is not in my field. If it is, I think
government officials knowing these facts, being aware of it,
they ought to take appropriate action. If they can show that
persons have performed acts as part of this conspiracy, well,
obviously they ought to do something about it.
Mr. Jones. Are you married?
Mr. Ayman. No, not now.
Mr. Jones. You were before?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
Mr. Jones. Was your wife a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. I have no way of knowing.
Mr. Jones. Do you have any children?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Jones. I assume if you did have children you would not
object to them receiving their entire education under a
Communist teacher?
Mr. Ayman. I wouldn't say that.
Mr. Jones. You said it.
Mr. Ayman. If these people were Communists and if they did
not use their position to propagandize for their beliefs, I
would have no objection to them any more than a person who is a
Fascist not using his position. I would say it was perfectly
all right, American principal. If they were using that
position, then I would say that person should not be permitted
to teach my children or anybody else's.
The Chairman. In other words, you wouldn't object to having
a Communist teacher teach your children?
Mr. Ayman. No.
The Chairman Would you have any objection to having a man
convicted of rape a number of times, even though be was not
caught committing rape in the classroom----
Mr. Ayman. I don't think you can make that comparison. I
assume a man convicted of rape would be sentenced to jail for a
number of years and not permitted to get a license. I don't see
how those two things are relevant.
The Chairman. Suppose he did not advocate rape in the
classroom, but had been convicted several times; that he was
not in jail. Would you have any objection?
Mr. Ayman. I don't know how he would get a license. If he
didn't use his position in the classroom, I don't see what the
objection would be.
The Chairman. If you were looking for a babysitter, you and
your wife were going out----
Mr. Ayman. I would think twice before using him as a
babysitter.
The Chairman. Do you still have a reserve commission in the
army?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever been in the Reserves?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were never in the army?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir. I was in the army. I was in what is
called AUS.
The Chairman. What is AUS?
Mr. Ayman. Army of the United States as distinguished from
the United States Army--people commissioned through the ranks
through OCS or some such things.
The Chairman. Did you have a commission?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman What was your rank?
Mr. Ayman. I came out as a 1st lieutenant.
The Chairman You no longer have the reserve commission?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman No connection with the army?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Jones. What do you teach at Samuel Tilden?
Mr. Ayman. Mathematics.
Mr. Jones. Would you agree with this statement; that the
Communist party is a conspiracy to accomplish the violent
overthrow of this government?
Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment of this.
I don't know enough about this business.
Mr. Jones. Sir, you have been a teacher a good number of
years. Don't you read the newspapers?
Mr. Ayman. Yes. I know people believe it. I know it is
possible to believe it. On the basis of my own knowledge, my
own analysis of this thing, I don't have information to be able
to make such a judgment.
Mr. Rainville. How would you determine whether they were
using their position to propagandize on your children or any
children in your care.
Mr. Ayman. Somebody would have to observe these
individuals.
Mr. Rainville. But this individual would not be you? Who is
going to do that?
Mr. Ayman. It is the supervisor's function to observe the
teacher's fitness to teach.
Mr. Rainville. But your particular job while you are a
teacher was to represent those teachers against such
supervisory controls? You said you were a Teachers Union
representative.
Mr. Ayman. I was advisor to those people, and as such I
appeared before the supervisory body, Mr. Moskoff, to help the
teachers. I didn't come to protect these people. My function
was, if I thought or they thought, the individual, that he was
being asked questions which he felt wasn't appropriate, he had
a right to ask me my reaction. My reaction in almost ever case
was: ``This is your job here.''
The Chairman. Did you advise Auerbach?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. I didn't advise him.
The Chairman. The question was: Did you advise Auerbach to
answer in regard to his Communist connections?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did he discuss that with you?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were there as his advisor?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, I was his advisor. As a matter of fact, I
met him five minutes before we went in to see Mr. Perch. In
other words, here is what happened. Somebody would call and ask
me if I would be willing to appear with this individual and I
would say, ``Well, this person is entitled to be represented,
to get some person who will represent them, and I will be
willing to go.'' In most cases I hadn't seen some of these
people. Met them maybe five minutes before we went into Mr.
Moskoff's office.
The Chairman. After Mr. Auerbach made his statement, did
you make any statement in his behalf before Mr. Moskoff or
whoever was there?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do I understand that you did nothing
whatsoever in the hearing of Mr. Auerbach?
Mr. Ayman. Nothing officially.
Mr. Auerbach, when he was questioned he called me aside and
asked me if he should answer. My answer to him was: ``You are
involved. You have to decide for yourself what you are going to
do.'' The word advisor, in this case, is not technically
correct verbiage. I can't really give a person advice which
might involve a legal question. I am not qualified.
The Chairman. In any event, when he called you aside and
asked you whether he should answer these questions about
alleged Communist activities, you didn't advise him to answer
or not to answer?
Mr. Ayman. That is correct.
The Chairman. So you didn't feel he should answer?
Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I wasn't in a position to make judgment.
The Chairman. Do you think now that teachers should tell
Mr. Moskoff when they are called before him whether or not they
are Communists?
Mr. Ayman. If these people feel they want to tell him.
The Chairman. I am asking you whether you think they
should?
Mr. Ayman. For myself, I would answer.
The Chairman. You are an advisor-teacher and I am asking
you a simple question. Do you think teachers who are called
before Mr. Moskoff should tell him truthfully about their
Communist party activities? Do you think that a teacher called
before Mr. Moskoff or any responsible member of the Board of
Education should truthfully tell about any Communist activities
in which they have been engaged or do you think they should
refuse?
Mr. Ayman. Each one must decide. It is a very hard thing to
tell somebody. Each person must decide on the basis of his own
convictions as to what answer he should give. I can't put
myself in the position of telling these people what they should
or should not do.
The Chairman. Do you still think you are a competent
advisor to these teachers if you don't know?
Mr. Ayman. I am a competent advisor only in the sense that
I would go and appear before Mr. Moskoff to give advice. As to
whether or not they should answer or not, that I am not
qualified to do.
The Chairman. As of today you can't decide whether all
teachers should be required to honestly tell about their
Communist activities to responsible superiors?
Mr. Ayman. That is substantially what I said before.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend any meetings of the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Were you ever asked to attend meetings of the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Did you ever attend meetings then or later
that you thought were Communist party meetings or dominated by
Communists?
Mr. Ayman. I don't believe so.
The Chairman. Would you say that the Teachers Union is
Communist dominated?
Mr. Ayman. Some people say it is. From my own knowledge I
am not prepared to make such a statement.
The Chairman. You are a member of that union?
Mr. Ayman. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you hold any office?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. And the general feeling is that the greater
part of the teachers are Communists in the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. There are a number of people who believe that.
The Chairman. That is the general feeling, isn't it?
Mr. Ayman. I would say ``yes.''
The Chairman. Do you know that teachers who are anti-
Communist do not join that union?
Mr. Ayman. Probably so, although there are people in it who
are anti-Communist. I don't know.
The Chairman. You are still a member?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. How long have you been a member?
Mr. Ayman. I have been a member of the union since 1932 or
1933.
The Chairman. Do you intend to retain your membership?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, unless it is declared illegal. From my
point of view it represents the best interests of teachers.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask Mr. Auerbach whether he was
a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever ask him whether he taught
communism in the schools?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. But you still felt you should represent him
and not ask him whether he was a Communist or not and not ask
him whether he taught Communism in the schools?
Mr. Ayman. It is a difficult problem in the school system.
People who are called up before Mr. Moskoff have to have
someone represent them. They are asked to bring along a
teacher-adviser for any reason. If you struck some child you
have a right to be represented by a teacher-advisor. It is
obvious that lots of people would not go up as an advisor,
because as you can gather from this, it is implied that one who
goes up is himself a Communist.
The Chairman. You said you went up as advisor, yet you did
not advise them. The man called you back and asked you for your
advice as to whether he should tell the truth about his
Communist activities, and you say you refused to advise him.
What did you advise him on?
Mr. Ayman. I gave no advice. My function is if there is any
difficulties.
The Chairman. What kind of difficulty?
Mr. Ayman. Suppose they would say, ``Are you a member of
the Communist party?''
The Chairman. He did, didn't he?
Mr. Ayman. Either he would turn to me and say, ``Should I
answer that question'' and I would say, ``That is up to you.''
The Chairman. So you wouldn't advise him?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. So you weren't there to advise?
Mr. Ayman. The technical term they used was ``advisor.''
That is the term they used. If they said teacher-
representative, it would be more in keeping with the meaning of
the way the person does.
The Chairman. Did you talk to Mr. Moskoff in his behalf?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you talk to anyone in his behalf?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. In all cases where you represented people as
advisor, were they accused of Communist activities?
Mr. Ayman. Well, what they were accused of, Mr. Moskoff and
in one case Mr. Perch, that was Mr. Auerbach, the statement was
made that there was reason to believe they were connected with
the Communist party or Communist activities.
The Chairman. In other words, all cases represented by you,
they were accused of Communist activities.
Mr. Ayman. The statement was made that there was reason to
believe. There was not an overt statement in some cases that
they were actually engaged in Communist party activities.
The Chairman. Did you ask them before you advised them
whether the statements were true?
Mr. Ayman. They weren't given any charges----
The Chairman. Call it statement, allegations----
Mr. Ayman. No, sir, I did not.
The Chairman. So you felt you could advise them without
knowing if the charges were true?
Mr. Ayman. The word advise--I was simply a representative
not to perform technical duties.
The Chairman. How could you advise then if you didn't ask
them?
Mr. Ayman. That is not the function of the so-called
representative.
The Chairman. You say you have never been solicited to join
the Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Maybe Bella Dodd may have solicited me.
The Chairman. Don't you remember?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Did you ever pay any money that went to the
Communist party?
Mr. Ayman. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. Do you subscribe to the Daily Worker?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Any Communist papers?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Do you belong to any Communist fronts, other
than the Teachers Union?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Have you ever belonged to any organizations
that have been listed by the attorney general as subversive or
Communist fronts?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir. Not that I know of.
The Chairman. I think that is all.
Mr. Rainville. It is my understanding you did not think it
was objectionable to have Communist teachers so long as he
didn't use his position to propagandize, so if these teachers
said they were Communists, you would still have defended them
since you think that is all right?
Mr. Ayman. If they did not use their position in any way.
Mr. Rainville. Then that is the reason you didn't ask them.
You didn't care?
Mr. Ayman. I certainly wasn't going to ask them.
The Chairman. Weren't you interested in whether they were
teaching their students communism?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You weren't interested?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I thought you said that was the one condition
under which Communists should not be allowed to teach and you
didn't even ask.
Mr. Ayman. I am not in a position to make judgment. I don't
watch them as teachers. I am a classroom teacher myself. That
is the function of those who are supervisors.
Mr. Cohn. The Teachers Union is Communist-dominated?
Mr. Ayman. That is what people say. I think it isn't. I
think I made that clear. The Teachers Union represents the best
interests of teachers and as long as it does that, I think it
is a good organization.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Rose Russell?
Mr. Ayman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is a Communist?
Mr. Ayman. I don't know whether she is or not.
Mr. Cohn. Do you think she is?
Mr. Ayman. You can ask me about anybody. Unless I know
whether they are or not I have no evidence, no way of judging.
Mr. Cohn. Unless you have evidence of your own you never
pronounce judgment on anything?
Mr. Ayman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You didn't answer counsel's question as to
whether or not you think the Communist Teachers Union is
Communist-dominated?
Mr. Ayman. I say people believe----
The Chairman. Do you think it is? You have been in it a
long time?
Mr. Ayman. From my experience I don't think so. My own
opinion. As long as it represents the best interest of
teachers----
Mr. Rainville. You have been in the Teachers Union since
1932 but I thought you said you didn't become a teacher until
1936?
Mr. Ayman. Oh, no. I didn't say that. I started to teach in
1927. They asked me about Tilden High School. I don't think I
started to teach there until 1936.
The Chairman. You can consider yourself under subpoena and
we will notify your counsel when you are to return.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE FRIEDMAN (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSELS,
WILLIAM A. CONSIDINE AND JACK FISHER)
The Chairman. Will you raise your right hand? In the matter
now in hearing do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. Friedman. I do.
The Chairman. Will counsel identify himself for the record?
Mr. Considine. William A. Considine, 744 Broad Street,
Newark.
The Chairman. Will the witness give his full name for the
record?
Mr. Friedman. Lawrence Friedman.
The Chairman. Who is the other gentleman?
Mr. Considine. Associate counsel.
The Chairman. What is his name?
Mr. Considine. Jack Fisher.
The Chairman. I don't think either of you gentlemen have
appeared before the committee before, so I will run over the
rules of the committee briefly.
The witness can advise with counsel any time he cares to.
He can interrupt the testimony. If you want a confidential
meeting with your client, we will arrange a room for that at
any time during the meeting.
Mr. Cohn. Are you at Belock Instrument Corporation now?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been
there?
Mr. Friedman. Almost three years.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before that?
Mr. Friedman. Reeves Instrument Corporation.
Mr. Cohn. For how long?
Mr. Friedman. Five years.
Mr. Cohn. And what did you do before that?
Mr. Friedman. I was in the navy, sir, for two years. I
worked at Camp Evans Signal Corps Laboratory for two years.
The Chairman. What kind of work did you do in the navy?
Mr. Friedman. I was an electronics technicians mate in the
navy.
Mr. Cohn. When were you at Evans?
Mr. Friedman. 1942 to 1944.
Mr. Cohn. When you were at Evans who were you living with?
Mr. Friedman. Ralph Dunn.
Mr. Cohn. Anybody else?
Mr. Friedman. I was living at a rooming house in Ashbury
Park and I also lived in a dormitory at the camp installation.
Mr. Cohn. Who else lived at that rooming house?
Mr. Friedman. Nobody associated with the laboratory. There
were several other girls and boys, but nobody associated with
the lab.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir. I met him when I was working at
Reeves.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Friedman. I worked at Reeves from 1946 to 1951 and it
was during that period.
Mr. Cohn. You had not known him before?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work?
Mr. Friedman. I worked on the third floor in the tool
design department and he worked on the second floor in the main
engineering office.
Mr. Cohn. And did you know him socially at all?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir, not at all.
Mr. Cohn. How frequently did you see him around Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Very infrequently. We were not associated on
the same project.
Mr. Cohn. While Sobell was at Reeves were you handling any
project for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Any classified?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did they involve radar?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you work on any of those projects?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you do any work on the same project Sobell
was working on?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Are you familiar with the projects in general
terms?
Mr. Friedman. I know what the projects are, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know the project Sobell worked on?
Mr. Friedman. I only knew it by name. I was not closely
associated with those projects.
Mr. Cohn. What do you recall?
Mr. Friedman. I believe it was a plotting board program for
the Air Corps. As far as I know, that is the only project he
was associated with.
Mr. Cohn. What else did they have there at the time you
were there?
Mr. Friedman. Well, of course we had many programs. We were
doing the Mark 5 Bomb Site for the navy. Of course, we had
these Signal Corps programs and the plotting board program.
Mr. Cohn. What is the plotting board program?
Mr. Friedman. Sir, I am not too familiar with it, just in
general terms. It was plotting the inside of a trailer.
May I ask one question? Some of this information may be
classified.
It was associated with 584 Signal Corps Radar. That is just
about all I know about the program, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did it have anything to do with 527 and 627?
Mr. Friedman. I don't know what that means. I am not
familiar with those designations.
Mr. Cohn. Now, in connection with the Signal Corps project,
would people come from time to time from Evans Laboratory down
to Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of them speak with Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. Cohn. You can recall no instance where anyone came from
Monmouth and spoke with Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. No, I don't, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. Friedman. Aaron Coleman was the project engineer on the
414A project. I was on the 414A program. I was one of the
mechanical engineers on the program.
The Chairman. As you perhaps know, the army intelligence
raided Coleman's home and picked up some forty-three secret
documents which would be of great value to the enemy.
Do you have any knowledge of his having removed those
documents?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir. No knowledge whatsoever.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Friedman, do you know a man by the name of
Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When did you meet Mr. Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. I would say 1949. He was associated in some
fashion with the 414A program and 414A Signal Corps project.
During the demonstration of the program I recall he did come up
to Reeves Instrument Corporation to witness the demonstration.
Mr. Cohn. When he came to Reeves did you see him in the
company of Morton Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir, I didn't.
Mr. Cohn. Did Sobell witness the demonstration?
Mr. Friedman. I don't think so.
Mr. Cohn. How many people worked at Reeves then?
Mr. Friedman. I think, at that time, around one thousand.
Mr. Cohn. You don't know whether Greenblum was associated
with Sobell up there?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir. I do not.
Mr. Cohn. That was the first time you met Greenblum?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him better?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Is that the only time you saw him?
Mr. Friedman. Subsequent to that time I have met him twice.
At the present time the Belock Instrument Corporation is about
to complete a Signal Corps contract and Greenblum was in some
small fashion associated with this program, associated with one
phase of the program. I believe I had occasion to meet him
twice.
Mr. Cohn. Was Mr. Belock, head of your company, formerly
with Reeves?
Mr. Friedman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he the one who hired Sobell?
Mr. Friedman. I can't answer that.
Mr. Cohn. Is this Belock Company doing classified work with
the Signal Corps now?
Mr. Friedman. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Chairman, I don't have anything more of this
witness.
The Chairman. Did you ever belong to the Young Communist
League?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. You never attended Young Communist League
meetings?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. Never contributed to it?
Mr. Friedman. No, sir.
The Chairman. I may say in your presence that we will not
give you to the press or anyone else unless you give it
yourself. We have got to call people who are loyal in order to
pick up the loose ends. If your name is given out some people
might assume that you are guilty, so for that reason unless you
give them your name, it will not be given out.
Mr. Friedman. I would like to say, sir, that I think the
committee is doing a wonderful job and I hope you continue to
do so.
TESTIMONY OF ELBA CHASE NELSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HER COUNSEL,
HAROLD I. CRAMMER)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Nelson. I do.
Mr. Cohn. Could we get the name of counsel?
Mr. Crammer. Harold I. Crammer, of Witt and Cammer.
Mr. Cohn. May we have your name?
Mrs. Nelson. Elba Chase Nelson.
Mr. Cohn. Where do you live?
Mrs. Nelson. Winter, New Hampshire.
Mr. Cohn. What is your address?
Mrs. Nelson. The address is Hillsboro Post Office.
Mr. Cohn. Are you an organizer for the Communist party?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
Mr. Cohn. On what grounds?
Mrs. Nelson. It is my privilege to decline to answer under
the Fifth Amendment.
Mr. Cohn. If you feel a truthful answer might tend to
incriminate you?
Mrs. Nelson. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Were you in 1936 an organizer for the Communist
party in New England?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that, sir, on the same
grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Did you at that time know a man by the name of
Haym Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Cohn. You refuse to tell us whether or not you know Dr.
Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I refuse to answer that question.
The Chairman. So the record will be clear, Yamins was the
liaison between the Signal Corps and MIT and other labs on
radar until this investigation started.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins spend time in your home on
frequent occasions between 1936 and 1949.
Mrs. Nelson. I invoke the Fifth Amendment and I decline
answer that question on the grounds that it may incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Yamins attend Communist party meetings at
your home in New Hampshire?
Mrs. Nelson. Sir, I decline to answer that question on the
same grounds.
Mr. Cohn. Were you present at meetings attended by Mr.
Yamins and Dr. Miriam Udins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever heard Mr. Yamins discuss classified
radar material?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Has he discussed that in the presence of members
of the Communist party?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question.
Mr. Cohn. Have you seen Mr. Yamins recently?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Thank you very much for the information. One
other question; I assume you will decline to answer it. Isn't
it a fact that your home was used as headquarters for Communist
cell meetings at which certain members of the Signal Corps
discussed the work they were doing?
Mrs. Nelson. Mr. Chairman, at this time I would like to say
that I know absolutely nothing about Fort Monmouth. I had never
heard of the town, didn't know where it was located until I
read it in the newspapers.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about Mr. Yamins?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Do you know anything about any of the men
working in the Signal Corps Laboratory?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer. As I said, I had never
heard of Fort Monmouth or Evans Laboratory before I read it in
the newspaper.
The Chairman. You had never heard Yamins mention the
laboratory at Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. You are ordered to answer that. You just got
through telling us you had never heard the name Fort Monmouth
or Evans Laboratory, so we can ask you some questions.
Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else in your home
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth?
Mrs. Nelson. No, sir.
The Chairman. Are you sure of that?
Mrs. Nelson. Very sure.
The Chairman. I want to tell you for your benefit that we
have evidence to the contrary so you will be fully protected
and can't claim at some future time that you were trapped into
this.
Having that information, will you tell us again that you
never heard Yamins or anyone else mention Evans, the Evans
Laboratory or Fort Monmouth? Is that correct.
Mrs. Nelson. Will you repeat that.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear Yamins or anyone else ever
mention Evans or Fort Monmouth? By Evans I refer to Evans
Laboratory at Fort Monmouth.
Mrs. Nelson. I want to repeat that I have never heard of
Fort Monmouth until I read it in the newspapers.
The Chairman. What is the answer to my question? Yes or No?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever see any material brought into
your home by anyone either stamped secret, confidential or
restricted?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Did you ever hear radar discussed in your
home?
Mrs. Nelson. No.
The Chairman. Are you a member of the Communist party as of
today?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that question, sir.
The Chairman. Are you on the payroll of the Communist party
as of today?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
The Chairman. Were you a Communist in 1950?
Mrs. Nelson. I decline to answer that.
Mr. Jones. Mrs. Nelson, if anyone stated to the contrary
that Professor Yamins had discussed radar material and
information in your home, would they be lying?
Mrs. Nelson. They would be lying, sir.
The Chairman. You may step down. You will consider yourself
under subpoena. We may want you later. We will give your lawyer
sufficient notice.
Mrs. Nelson. I would like to say to the committee, I wasn't
served with the subpoena until yesterday morning at 9:30 and I
live over three hundred miles from New York and my husband is
ill. I would like a little more notice, although I see no
reason why I was called here in the first place.
The Chairman. May I have the record clear at this time that
apparently you weren't found by the marshal up there until
yesterday, but you had notice a week ago that you were being
called and made a statement to the press at that time about it.
If the marshal can't find you, if you absent yourself from your
home, that is not the fault of the committee.
Let me ask you this?
Is it correct that you made a statement to the papers in
regard to being called?
Mrs. Nelson. I did not make a statement. The reporter
called me and informed me I had been subpoenaed.
Do you imply that the marshal was at my home trying to
serve the subpoena?
The Chairman. The marshal had been looking for you a week.
Mrs. Nelson. I beg your pardon. You are absolutely
incorrect. I was home. I want to make that very clear.
The Chairman. Ask the officer to remove the witness.
Mrs. Nelson. I can walk.
The Chairman. We will notify your counsel when we want you
back here for public sessions.
TESTIMONY OF HERBERT S. BENNETT
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Bennett. I do.
The Chairman. Your name is Herbert Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. Herbert S. Bennett.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed Mr. Bennett?
Mr. Bennett. Dynamic Electronic Corporation of New York.
Mr. Cohn. And do they do any government work there?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Any classified work?
Mr. Bennett. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. For what branch of the service?
Mr. Bennett. We have classified contracts with the U.S. Air
Force.
Mr. Cohn. Does any of it involve radar?
Mr. Bennett. Not radar as such, no. It is electronic
communications would be closer I think.
Mr. Cohn. How long have you been working there?
Mr. Bennett. Since March 1952.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you work before that?
Mr. Bennett. Signal Corps. Electronic Warfare Center, Fort
Monmouth.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you working at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Bennett. Since August 1950. I am not sure of the month
but it was 1950.
Mr. Cohn. What did you do before that?
Mr. Bennett. I was an engineer at the U.S. Air Force,
Watson Laboratories in Eatontown, New Jersey.
Mr. Cohn. How long were you at Eatontown?
Mr. Bennett. Since June 1946.
Mr. Cohn. And where did you work before June of 1946?
Mr. Bennett. In the Armed Service Signal Corps from October
1942 until June of 1946 except for terminal leave which
actually ended in August.
Mr. Cohn. Were you station at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. Bennett. For a period of, I think, approximately
February 1943 until May 1943.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you from 1940 to 1942?
Mr. Bennett. That would probably cover three phases, I
imagine. I was with New York Signal Corps Procurement District
from March 1939 and I think that whole outfit moved to
Philadelphia.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever part of Signal Corps Inspection?
Mr. Bennett. I was in the New York Signal Corps Procurement
Division, Inspection Division.
Mr. Cohn. During the time you were working in the Signal
Corps did you have access to classified material?
Mr. Bennett. Certainly while in the service.
Mr. Cohn. Is there any point which you were not cleared for
classified material?
Mr. Bennett. I think at the very beginning I filled out
some forms which were probably for clearance.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Bennett. Well, I was told he was at CCNY. I actually do
not remember him from there. He was in inspection. I vaguely
remember him from inspection.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him when you were in Signal Corps
Inspection?
Mr. Bennett. I probably came into contact with him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you have any recollection of coming into
contact with him?
Mr. Bennett. I have not. There were many inspectors.
Mr. Cohn. You don't remember him being there at all?
Mr. Bennett. I remember a name. I came there in March 1939
and----
Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether you knew him there?
Mr. Bennett. I want to explain that it is rather vague in
my mind.
Mr. Cohn. I would just rather have you tell me whether or
not you knew him?
Mr. Bennett. I can't honestly say I knew him. I remember a
name. There were three Rosenbergs on the roster.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. Bennett. I would say vaguely. I don't think I remember
him from there.
Mr. Cohn. Do you remember him from any place?
Mr. Bennett. That would be the only place for even a casual
contact as far as I know.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work with you at any time?
Mr. Bennet. He never worked directly with me.
Mr. Cohn. You mean on your assignment as inspectors?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Was he ever under your supervision?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. He did not?
Mr. Bennett. I was assistant to the chief of the inspection
division and in that sense if he was under my supervision, it
would be in a very vague way.
Mr. Cohn. Now, in as far as you recall-you don't recall
ever having met him?
Mr. Bennett. I cannot truthfully recall having met him.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Bennett. Morton Sobell I recall from school. He was in
electrical engineering school at the same time I was at CCNY. I
knew him there.
Mr. Cohn. You knew him there?
Mr. Bennett. Yes. I think I was definitely in classes that
he was in at that time.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know that he was a Communist?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I had no relations with him that
would even tend to bring that to my attention.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know any of your classmates as
Communists?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir. I knew of no classmates who were
Communists. I would like to explain why.
Mr. Cohn. Don't explain why if you don't know.
Were you ever asked to go to a meeting of the Young
Communist League?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever asked to go to Communist meetings
of any kind?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. None of the people in school with you or at the
Signal Corps at Fort Monmouth did anything or said anything
which might lead you to believe that they might be Communist?
Mr. Bennett. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. I have nothing further.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. You are excused.
TESTIMONY OF NORMAN LEVINSON (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
WALTER N. KERNAN)
The Chairman. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. Levinson. Yes. I do.
The Chairman. Could we get the name of counsel for the
record?
Mr. Kernan. Walter Kernan, Walter N., associated with
Choate, Hall and Stewart, 30 State Street, Boston,
Massachusetts.
The Chairman. Now, will the witness give his name for the
record?
Mr. Levinson. Norman Levinson.
Mr. Cohn. Where are you employed?
Mr. Levinson. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time have you been at
MIT?
Mr. Levinson. Since February 1937.
Mr. Cohn. What type of work have you been doing?
Mr. Levinson. Mathematics.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing before you began teaching
there?
Mr. Levinson. I am an academic appointee.
Mr. Cohn. Now, have you ever done any laboratory work?
Mr. Levinson. At MIT? I have not.
Mr. Cohn. At any place?
Mr. Levinson. Laboratory work, no.
Wait a while. I was associated with someone who did some
laboratory work at one time, at Worchester.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. I do not. I have never met him. No, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know who he is?
Mr. Levinson. I read about him in the newspapers. I heard
about him from Mr. [Stuart C.] Rand, who I know as an attorney
and who is the attorney of Mr. Yamins. I heard about him
yesterday when I went to the office of Choate, Hall and
Stewart.
Mr. Cohn. I assume that Mr. Rand advised you of the fact
that Mr. Yamins who is under inquiry by this subcommittee
testified here that you were one of the persons he had grounds
to believe was a Communist? Was that called to your attention?
Mr. Levinson. Do you want me to say what Mr. Rand told me?
Mr. Cohn. Yes. I don't care particularly what Mr. Rand told
you. I want to know if he communicated to you the fact that Mr.
Yamins has testified that you were one of the persons he
believed to be a Communist.
Mr. Levinson. Mr. Rand told me Mr. Yamins had said that he
had reason to believe that my sister was a Communist. Mr. Rand
wasn't sure whether he knew I was a Communist or not.
Mr. Cohn. Is your sister named Pauline Levinson?
Mr. Levinson. That was her maiden name. Her name is Nobel
now.
Mr. Cohn. What does she do now?
Mr. Levinson. She is a housewife.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever worked at MIT?
Mr. Levinson. No.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever done any work for the government?
Mr. Levinson. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about her husband?
Mr. Levinson. He is a physician.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever followed any calling, done anything
other than being a housewife?
Mr. Levinson. At what date would you like me to begin?
Mr. Cohn. Just give it to me in general terms.
Mr. Levinson. She was a student at Radcliffe, graduated in
1934, majored in mathematics. She decided she didn't like
mathematics and went to the New York School for Social Work.
She took the course there and was a social worker in New York.
I don't know exactly what agencies. Several, I believe, and she
got married sometime, I believe, in the early forties.
Mr. Cohn. Has your sister ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. When Mr. Rand told me her name had come up I
phoned her and talked with her. She doesn't recall ever meeting
Mr. Yamins. However, Mr. Rand mentioned that Mr. Yamins had
passed by the home of my parents where my sister and I lived
with a man by the name of Wechsler, Harry Wechsler. I remember
Mr. Wechsler. He was a corrector for a professor at Harvard and
I took some courses as an undergraduate. I do know the name
Wechsler. This was the phone conversation. Mr. Kernans was in
the office of Mr. Rand upstairs and I gathered Mr. Yamins was
in the room with him. Mr. Yamins told him there was a bulldog
in the house and there was a Boston Terrier there. There is
that evidence. That was the summer of 1937.
Mr. Cohn. All I want to know is whether your sister has
ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. Yes. She told me on the phone that she joined
the Communist party sometime after she came to this New York
School of Social Work, sometime after the fall of 1937. In the
first year of that school she joined the Communist party. In
about 1942 she began to drift away.
Mr. Cohn. What was she doing when she joined the party?
Mr. Levinson. She was a student at the New York School for
Social Workers.
Mr. Cohn. Was she a member of the party in New York City?
Mr. Levinson. Presumably.
Mr. Cohn. From 1937 to 1942?
Mr. Levinson. Either 1937--she wasn't clear. She didn't
remember exactly. In September 1937 she went to the New York
School and in her first academic year there, 1937 or 1938, she
joined the Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. Has she ever talked with the FBI? Do you know?
Mr. Levinson. I don't know but I think she probably hasn't.
The Chairman. Would she be willing? I know you can't speak
for your sister, but do you think she would be willing to talk
to the bureau and give them all the information she might have,
even though the information would be rather old?
Mr. Levinson. I'd be willing to call her up and try to
persuade her.
Mr. Cohn. But you have no recollection of Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. No. I remember Harry Wechsler. Mr. Yamins can
describe the place. He remembered the dog. In all probability
he had been at the house. I got the impression from Mr. Rand
that Mr. Yamins is an honest man. It seems quite likely. My
sister was a good looking girl and any number of men passed by
to see her.
Mr. Cohn. You do not know Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Levinson. I don't believe I met him.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a Communist?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, I was a Communist.
Mr. Cohn. When did you join the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. I joined the Communist party in the fall of
1931.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you join?
Mr. Levinson. Boston, Massachusetts.
Mr. Cohn. What were you doing at the time you joined?
Mr. Levinson. I was an instructor in mathematics at MIT.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time did you remain in
the party?
Mr. Levinson. About eight years, a little less. 1937 to
1945. I think I was all out by the spring of 1945.
Mr. Cohn. Have you talked to the FBI?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mr. Levinson. Several times.
Mr. Cohn. When was the first time?
Mr. Levinson. The first time was early in April, I think,
of this year and I didn't say much to them then. I had been
subpoenaed before the Velde committee [House Un-American
Activities Committee] and sort of wanted to get that off my
mind. They arranged for subsequent appointments. After that I
had some sessions with the FBI agent. Do you want his name?
Mr. Cohn. No.
The Chairman. You didn't take the Fifth Amendment before
the Velde committee?
Mr. Levinson. I did not.
The Chairman. Did you testify before the Velde committee in
open session or closed session?
Mr. Levinson. Open session.
The Chairman. Who recruited you into the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. Well, I sort of went over this a little bit
with the FBI. It is pretty complicated and it will sound a
little weird.
Nobody recruited me. I actually walked into the
headquarters of the Communist party of Boston and met Mr. Phil
Frankfeld and signed up.
The Chairman. Was there anybody you knew while in the
Communist party who is today working for the United States
government?
Mr. Levinson. No.
The Chairman. Is there anybody whom you knew in the
Communist party who has worked for the Army Signal Corps or any
related organization?
Mr. Levinson. No.
The Chairman. Or any laboratory where they might have been
doing work on radar or for the Signal Corps?
Mr. Levinson. Let's see. This goes back to the war period.
Let's see. Wendell Furry.\3\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\3\ Wendell Furry later testified in executive session on November
4, 1953.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Chairman. Did he have anything to do with radar?
Mr. Levinson. He was in the radiation lab. He was a
theoretical physicist.
The Chairman. What is Mr. Furry doing now?
Mr. Levinson. He is a professor of physics at Harvard. He
was also before the Velde committee.
The Chairman. Did he testify?
Mr. Levinson. He gave fairly long testimony except on
certain questions he invoked the Fifth Amendment.
The Chairman. He is teaching at Harvard now?
Mr. Levinson. That is right.
The Chairman. What did he do in connection with radar?
Mr. Levinson. Well, all the work of the radiation
laboratory has been published. He wrote part of the volume of
theories of antennas.
The Chairman. At MIT? The Signal Corps project at MIT, was
it?
Mr. Levinson. Gentlemen, I don't know that. I don't think
so. This was during the war. It was not electronic radar. It
was NDIC, which he was interested. I think there were a lot of
people interested, but as I say, various stuff was published
after the war. It was rather theoretical, considerably
theoretical.
The Chairman. And he is now teaching at Harvard and he
appeared before the Velde committee? Now, is he the only one
you can think of?
Mr. Levinson. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. I think that will be all. I don't think we
will need you again.
Just one other question. You say that in 1945 or
thereabouts you broke off connections with the Communist party?
Mr. Levinson. I had certain differences, disputes with the
New Masses with them in 1944 and stopped attending meetings and
I sort of split away. Arguments with local leaders, etc.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Your name will not be
given to the press or anyone else unless you give it to them.
Mr. Levinson. I think that will not only help me but MIT.
The Chairman. The reason we don't give out names of
witnesses, we have got to call a lot of good, loyal Americans
and if we give the names of witnesses, there is always the
impression that they must have been guilty of something, which
is not true.
Thank you very much. That is all.
Mr. Kernan. Is Mr. Levinson discharged from the subpoena?
The Chairman. We will let you know if we want him again.
TESTIMONY OF LOUISE SARANT
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mrs. Sarant. I do.
The Chairman. Could we get your full name for the record
please?
Mrs. Sarant. Louise Jacqueline Sarant.
The Chairman. Where do you reside?
Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
The Chairman. What is the street address?
Mrs. Sarant. RD No. 3.
Mr. Cohn. What is your occupation?
Mrs. Sarant. Housewife.
Mr. Cohn. Are you married?
Mrs. Sarant. No, divorced.
Mr. Cohn. What was the name of your husband?
Mrs. Sarant. Alfred?
Mr. Cohn. When were you divorced from your husband?
Mrs. Sarant. We were divorced in 1952.
Mr. Cohn. When were you married?
Mrs. Sarant. 1945.
Mr. Cohn. Did Mr. Sarant ever work for the Signal Corps out
at Fort Monmouth, New Jersey?
Mrs. Sarant. Not when I knew him.
Mr. Cohn. If he did it was prior to your marriage. Is that
right?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Was it in the years 1942 and 1943, approximately?
Mrs. Sarant. I don't know.
Mr. Cohn. Now, at the time--when did you see Mr. Sarant
last by the way?
Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago, 1950. July of 1950.
Mr. Cohn. Now, coming to the first of 1945, in that year
was Mr. Sarant an espionage agent?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You understand that unless you were involved,
the fact that he was an espionage agent would not incriminate
you, unless you, yourself, were involved. You understand that,
don't you?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe I do. I believe I understand what I
am doing when I refuse to answer a question on the ground it
may incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Now, Mrs. Sarant, from what Mr. Sarant told you
do you know that he was engaged in espionage while working for
the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever present when Mr. Sarant, Joel Barr
and Julius Rosenberg were discussing plans concerning espionage
against the United States?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever been a member of the Communist
party yourself?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Are you today a member of the Communist party?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Has Mr. Sarant left this country and gone to the
Soviet Union?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Where did you last see Mr. Sarant?
Mrs. Sarant. Ithaca, New York.
Mr. Cohn. When?
Mrs. Sarant. Three years ago.
Mr. Cohn. Was he your husband then?
Mrs. Sarant. [No answer]
The Chairman. Has he left the country?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer this question on the
grounds it may tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know whether he is in the United
States?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. When did you get your divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. 1952. A year ago.
The Chairman. Where did you get the divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. Florida.
The Chairman. In what court down in Florida?
Mrs. Sarant. I have no idea. Miami.
The Chairman. And where did they serve the papers on your
husband or did they serve them by publication?
Mrs. Sarant. Publication.
The Chairman. Do you know what address they gave in the
publication notice?
Mrs. Sarant. I think it was our last home address.
The Chairman. I believe you have got to sign an affidavit
that this is the last known address of your husband. Is that
right?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe so.
The Chairman. Is that actually the last address you know he
stopped at?
Mrs. Sarant. That is the last place I saw him.
The Chairman. Is that the last address that you know that
he had, regardless of where you saw him? In other words, did
you learn from someone else a different address he had
subsequent to that time?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Are you married now?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. What do you work at?
Mrs. Sarant. I take care of my children.
The Chairman. How many children do you have?
Mrs. Sarant. Two.
The Chairman. How old is the oldest child?
Mrs. Sarant. Seven in December.
The Chairman. Are you working at all yourself or just
taking care of your children?
Mrs. Sarant. Pardon?
The Chairman. You aren't holding down any job at all?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. How do you support yourself?
Mrs. Sarant. My father supports me.
The Chairman. You get no income from the Communist party at
this time?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. I may say you waived the privilege when I
asked you about support and you stated your father supported
you.
Mr. Cohn. Is your father a Communist?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Was your father's name Victor Ross?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Where does he reside?
Mrs. Sarant. Utica, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Same address?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
The Chairman. When Mr. Sarant left did he take any
belongings with him?
Mrs. Sarant. I don't remember what he took with him.
The Chairman. Did he just walk out of the house with his
hat or did he take clothes?
Mrs. Sarant. I believe he had a suitcase. I can't tell you
what was in it.
The Chairman. What were the grounds for divorce?
Mrs. Sarant. Desertion.
The Chairman. Have you heard from Mr. Sarant in the last
three years, directly or indirectly?
Mrs. Sarant. No, I have not.
The Chairman. Not one word?
Mrs. Sarant. No.
The Chairman. As far as you know he disappeared from the
face of the earth?
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
The Chairman. Do you know Joel Barr?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know Vivan Glassman?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know Joseph Levitsky?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know a man by the name of Carl
Greenberg?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Were you present at a restaurant on 34th
Street in New York with your husband and Joel Barr when
Levitsky and with him William Perl on an occasion when Joseph
Levitsky brought Carl Greenberg to that restaurant?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Do you know William Perl?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that such
answer might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Were you yourself engaged in espionage?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. Was your husband a part of the Rosenberg spy
ring while he worked for the Signal Corps?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. That will be all for the time being, Mrs.
Sarant. We will want you at a future date, so consider yourself
under subpoena.
The Chairman. Do you know Mr. Aaron Copland?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that on the grounds that it
might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Rainville. I had occasion in 1932 to interview some of
the Brown Shirt leaders in Chicago and at one of their homes
they had a seven-year-old boy of whom they were very proud of
the way which he talked about Hitler. He would run in the front
room and salute before Hitler's picture.
May I ask, are you teaching your children the principles of
the Communist party?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know Haym G. Yamins?
Mrs. Sarant. I refuse to answer that question on the
grounds that it might tend to incriminate me.
The Chairman. You understand that you are still under
subpoena and you will be notified when to return.
Mrs. Sarant. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH H. PERCOFF (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
LEONARD E. GOLDITCH)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that in the matter now
in hearing the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Percoff. I do.
Mr. Golditch. I'd like to enter my appearance.
Mr. Cohn. We'd like you to.
Mr. Golditch. My name is Leonard E. Golditch, 25 Broad
Street, New York 4, New York.
Mr. Chairman, I'd like to ask for an adjournment at this
time. I understand from my client that he was served this
subpoena at 1:30 yesterday afternoon. He consulted me yesterday
evening about 4:30. I haven't had the opportunity to really
prepare for the hearing or ascertain what the facts are or what
the hearing is about. I would, therefore, respectfully ask the
Chairman for an adjournment so I may be able to prepare for the
hearing and the witness will be ready to reappear at any time
you telephone. Call either his office or mine.
The Chairman. I think that is a reasonable request.
Mr. Golditch. In other words, when do you expect to be back
in the city?
The Chairman. I think I will be back a week from next
Tuesday or Wednesday. We will let you know.
Mr. Golditch. My number is Hanover 2-7550.
The Chairman. I might suggest counsel, that it will save
you considerable work if you let counsel ask some questions and
if it requires further study, you can ask for an adjournment
then.
Mr. Golditch. I would appreciate it very much if we could
have the adjournment. I might make unnecessary objections and
we may be able to save you a lot of time when I ascertain what
the hearings are about.
The Chairman. We will notify you then, perhaps a week from
Tuesday or Wednesday.
TESTIMONY OF LAWRENCE AGUIMBAU (ACCOMPANIED BY HIS COUNSEL,
OSMOND. K. FRAENKEL)
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Aguimbau. I do.
The Chairman. May we have your full name?
Mr. Aguimbau. Lawrence Baker Aguimbau.
The Chairman. And your counsel?
Mr. Fraenkel. Osmond K. Fraenkel, 120 Broadway, New York.
Mr. Cohn. Mr. Aguimbau, where do you reside?
Mr. Aguimbau. Foxboro, Massachusetts.
Mr. Cohn. And what is your occupation?
Mr. Aguimbau. I am a teacher at MIT.
Mr. Cohn. What do you teach?
Mr. Aguimbau. Radio engineering.
Mr. Cohn. For how long a period of time?
Mr. Aguimbau. Since 1939.
Mr. Cohn. Have you ever done any work for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not directly, only through MIT.
Mr. Cohn. What was the work you have done?
Mr. Aguimbau. I have worked for MIT, work that was under
government contract.
Mr. Cohn. Such as?
Mr. Aguimbau. Such as the research laboratory of
electronics.
Mr. Cohn. Did any of that work involve radar?
Mr. Aguimbau. No. It involved electronic frequency
moderation.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come across any classified information in
the course of that work?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. Was that the only project you worked on?
Mr. Aguimbau. Except for teaching. I was teaching army
specialized training. That was not under direct government
auspices.
Mr. Cohn. At MIT?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is correct.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know a Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. When did you first meet Mr. Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is difficult to say in detail. I know I
met him as early as 1937, casually, and I may have met him
before that. I read in the papers that we were both students at
Harvard and I assume I may have met him there.
Mr. Cohn. What year were you working on the electronic
program?
Mr. Aguimbau. 1945 until the present.
Mr. Cohn. You are working on it now?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. By the way, at the present time you don't happen
to be on government payroll, do you?
Mr. Aguimbau. That isn't government contribution.
Mr. Cohn. When did the government contribution cease?
Mr. Aguimbau. July 1.
Mr. Cohn. When were you teaching this army training?
Mr. Aguimbau. During the war.
Mr. Cohn. Now, you say you met Mr. Yamins in 1937?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir.
Mr. Cohn. Did you come to know him well?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not well. It is so difficult to remember in
detail. I have been trying to think of it since I saw his name
in the papers. I met him in that period a total of a half dozen
times.
Mr. Cohn. When did he come to MIT?
Mr. Aguimbau. A year or so ago. I wouldn't know that.
Something of that sort.
Mr. Cohn. And from the time you met him until he came to
MIT, you had been with him about a half dozen times?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is very hard to time with precision back
about fifteen years ago. I did meet him occasionally.
Mr. Cohn. Were any of these contacts socially?
Mr. Aguimbau. I casually met him on the street in Cambridge
while he was a graduate student at Harvard.
Mr. Cohn. Were you ever at any social gathering where he
was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. On one occasion, I believe.
Mr. Cohn. When was that?
Mr. Aguimbau. 1937.
Mr. Cohn. Who else was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I don't know. It is a long time back
and I don't really know.
Mr. Cohn. You recall nobody who was present?
Mr. Aguimbau. No. It was a left-wingish sort of social
gathering but I had the impression he was not attending the
gathering as such but was a casual visitor. He remarked on that
to me.
Mr. Cohn. You recall that?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Do you recall anybody present besides you and
Yamins?
Mr. Aguimbau. The people living in the house and I think
there were others present but I don't know. I have been
thinking of this during the time and it was the first time to
the best of my knowledge that I met him and he came up and
introduced himself and apparently he knew me because he said he
had seen me at electrical meetings.
Mr. Cohn. You say it was a leftish gathering-under whose
sponsorship?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, sir. A school that I had attended.
Mr. Cohn. Can you be specific?
Mr. Aguimbau. Progressive Labor School.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a Communist school?
Mr. Aguimbau. Under influence, I would say.
Mr. Cohn. Were you a party member at that time?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not at that time. I was from 1937 to sometime
between 1949 and 1950. I am not sure of the exact date.
Mr. Cohn. When did you leave the party?
Mr. Aguimbau. Late 1949 or early 1950.
Mr. Cohn. During part of the time you were working on the
electronics project you were a member of the Communist party?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody you met in the Communist party
or in the Communist movement who is today working directly or
indirectly for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Not that I know of. I can't think of anyone
who is.
Mr. Cohn. Is there anybody who did any work for the
government, directly or indirectly----
Mr. Aguimbau. It has been testified that Yamins of MIT did.
He testified to that effect himself but I was not aware of
anyone in the project in which I was active being a member of
the Communist party.
The Chairman. Is this the first time you were before a
committee?
Mr. Aguimbau. I was before the Velde committee.
The Chairman. Did you ever see Mr. Yamins at leftish
gatherings?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
The Chairman. Now, when he came to MIT, did you have
occasion to know Mr. Yamins better?
Mr. Aguimbau. Only as far as business was concerned. I
never talked with him about anything other than business
matters.
Mr. Cohn. Not at all. You never had a social acquaintance?
Mr. Aguimbau. No, sir. I was at one leftish meeting with
him socially. I have the impression that I met him at the Radio
Institute at a radio engineers meeting in New York. I can not
be certain of that.
Mr. Cohn. Did he attend this Progressive Labor School?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. You did not see him there?
Mr. Aguimbau. No.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know who brought him to the party? What he
was doing at the party?
Mr. Aguimbau. He told me he had come by with someone; that
he was attending as a friendly matter and was not interested in
the matter himself.
Mr. Cohn. What was the matter? Was it fund raising?
Mr. Aguimbau. No, it wasn't that. Some sort of celebration.
Mr. Cohn. In connection with the school?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
Mr. Cohn. Having searched your memory and having thought
about it, do you still say you don't know anybody who worked
for the government, we are particularly interested in
electronics and radar, who are now or ever have been in the
government and whom you knew in the Communist movement?
Mr. Aguimbau. Well, I was in the laboratory--where I was
working I have no knowledge of anyone who was a member of the
Communist party.
Mr. Cohn. How about any place, anywhere, who was in the
Communist movement and now works for the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. It is a very difficult thing to answer. I
wouldn't know of their government employment. I do believe that
there was one case I knew of where a man was working for the
government fifteen or twenty years ago, not in recent years.
Mr. Cohn. What was his name?
Mr. Aguimbau. I had rather not give that.
Mr. Cohn. Would you direct the witness to give that, Mr.
Chairman.
The Chairman. I may say that I understand your feeling that
you don't want to name someone who worked in the government
fifteen or twenty years ago. It may seem very unimportant and
most likely will be unimportant. However, we are investigating
a situation concerning espionage of very startling evidence,
the Rosenberg spy ring extending into the Monmouth plant. Under
those circumstances, it is difficult to know whether or not the
man you knew as a Communist could furnish some very important
information, which might be a minor link. I think I will have
to very reluctantly order you to answer that.
Mr. Aguimbau. May I say a word. He was not--he was working
a long time back on a project of rivers or something of that
sort, nothing connected with electrical matters. It is not at
all connected. I am reasonably certain he has not worked for
the government in the last fifteen years.
The Chairman. What is he doing now?
Mr. Aguimbau. I don't know. I haven't had contact with him
in five or ten years.
The Chairman. Then how do you know he is not back in the
government? Do you know that he left the government?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes, I could say that because he was asked to
leave that project as a security matter. He was asked to leave
that project as a security matter.
The Chairman. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't give
us the name. If you want to consult with counsel, you have a
right to at any time you'd like.
Mr. Cohn. I'd like the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. As I said before, I feel very strongly that
he is not connected with this.
Mr. Cohn. The trouble with that is this: You can't judge
that. You don't know what happened. You don't know who his
friends are in the Communist movement. You could give us a
chance to call him in executive session and he might be
perfectly friendly and happy to cooperate. You don't have the
picture the committee has and you can't take it upon yourself
to judge whether or not he can help.
The Chairman. If we hear of anybody who is a Communist in
the government we have to get the name and call him in. Unless
you feel the answer might tend to incriminate you and I'm sure
it wouldn't as you have freely answered the other question, we
ought to have the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. The situation is, he did tell me that he was
discharged on a security basis and on this basis you must have
his name.
Mr. Cohn. That isn't going to be too much help to me.
Mr. Aguimbau. You put me in a very embarrassing situation.
The Chairman. I will have to order you to give the name.
Mr. Aguimbau. I will have to refuse.
The Chairman. Well, we will have to hold you in contempt if
you refuse. You have no legal basis.
I may say, as long as the witness has competent legal
counsel, have the record show that the witness refused to
answer the question; that the chairman ordered him to answer
and he persisted in refusing and states that if he were to
answer the question, the answer would not tend to incriminate
him.
Mr. Aguimbau. I might say this. I am thoroughly willing to
cooperate with the committee as far as knowledge of the present
situation is concerned and I regard on the technical matter at
hand that this happens to be non-pertinent. If it were
pertinent, I would bring it out.
Mr. Rainville. You have already been proved wrong once. The
government discharged him as a security risk.
Mr. Aguimbau. The government discharges people as security
risks from all kinds of positions.
Mr. Rainville. They did think he was a security risk. They
found out about his Communist activities and discharged him.
The Chairman. Give us the names of every other individual
you have known as a member of the Communist party? Do you
refuse to do that too?
Mr. Aguimbau. Yes. I would say that in this respect I
thought this matter over. I had the same situation in the Velde
committee. The reason for doing so is that I searched my
conscience very carefully and decided there were many courses
open to me and that in particular use of the Fifth Amendment
would be appropriate but I didn't wish to do that. I wanted to
give the committee there and this committee as much information
as I can that will be of use to them in the problem at hand. I
am willing to be of help and I have forgone the use of the
privilege of the Fifth Amendment because I wished to be of
maximum assistance to the committee consistent with what I felt
was an honorable stand. If I had known of any activities that
in my opinion constitute espionage or anything of that nature,
I wouldn't use that for this purpose. This was the best thing I
honorably could do for the committee.
The Chairman. Let me say this for your information.
The committee, as you understand, has jurisdiction to
investigate anything having to do with the government,
expenditure of government funds. It is not confined solely to
the Signal Corps Laboratory, you understand, and we have been
going into the question of Communists, espionage in various
branches of the government.
Mr. Jones. As a member of the Communist party you my have
known of no espionage activities on his part. We may have other
evidence indicating that he was part of the Rosenberg spy ring.
The Chairman. It may be possible that the unimportant
evidence, unimportant to you, it may seem completely irrelevant
to you but it might be an important link in uncovering and
exposing the espionage ring which has been operating or is
operating at Fort Monmouth. For that reason I am going to order
you to give the committee (1) the names of all members of the
Communist party known to you as such who are now to your
knowledge working in the government.
Mr. Aguimbau. I know none.
The Chairman. Number two, anyone known to you who is a
member of the Communist party who has in the past been in or
worked in the government.
Mr. Aguimbau. I know only one instance of that.
The Chairman. That is the one on which we have your refusal
already. Number three, I am going to ask you to give the names
of all those known to you as members of the Communist party and
whose occupation you do not know at the present time. That is
on the theory that he may or may not be working in the
government, may or may not be doing government work.
I assume you refuse to answer that?
Mr. Aguimbau. That is so.
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered
to answer the question and still refused. Last and finally is
the request for the names of any other individuals other than
those who have subsequently been deceased who were known to you
or are known to you as members of the Communist party.
Mr. Aguimbau. [No answer.]
The Chairman. Let the record show the witness was ordered
to answer the question and refused and the basis for refusing
was not on the Fifth Amendment but for the reason as stated by
the witness.
Mr. Aguimbau. That is right.
The Chairman. May I suggest that you go back and think this
matter over and if you change your mind, let us know. We have
no desire to take the time of the courts and the time of the
Senate to punish people for contempt. There is nothing gained
as far as the committee is concerned and nothing gained as far
as you are concerned.
Mr. Fraenkel. Counsel and the witness have talked this over
quite sometime.
The Chairman. Maybe when he thinks over the grounds on
which we feel we need this, he will. If he doesn't, it is up to
him.
TESTIMONY OF PERRY SEAY
The Chairman. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give in the matter now in hearing will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?
Mr. Seay. I do.
Mr. Cohn. May we have your full name?
Mr. Seay. Perry Alexander Seay. The last name is spelled S-
e-a-y.
Mr. Cohn. You are employed at the Reeves Instrument
Corporation?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
Mr. Cohn. Since when?
Mr. Seay. 1947, November 1947. However, I was away for
about an eight months period.
Mr. Cohn. Where were you before you went to Reeves?
Mr. Seay. University of Texas.
Mr. Cohn. While at Reeves, did you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know he was a Communist?
Mr. Seay. Not at the time I was employed there, after his
indictment.
Mr. Cohn. Did you know him well when there?
Mr. Seay. I knew him as a business acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Did he work in the same office with you?
Mr. Seay. For a period he did.
Mr. Cohn. Who were the people that would come in to see
him?
Mr. Seay. He had dealings primarily with the air force and
was only on the air force job during the time I was there.
Mr. Cohn. Was that a classified job?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir, it was.
Mr. Cohn. Do you know any of his social acquaintance that
would drop in on him in the office?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Cohn. You don't recall the name of anyone who ever came
to see him in the office?
Mr. Seay. Not a social acquaintance.
Mr. Cohn. Anyone with whom he was particularly friendly?
Mr. Seay. No.
Mr. Cohn. How about the names of anyone who would come to
the office to see him regardless of the relationship?
Mr. Seay. [No answer]
The Chairman. Would business people from various companies
come there in connection with the work under way?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Would you name all the people you recall?
Give us the names of all those?
Mr. Seay. Mr. Lesley Cornell.
The Chairman. Where is Mr. Cornell?
Mr. Seay. Army air force, Rome air force.
The Chairman. Was he a civilian or an army officer?
Mr. Seay. He was a civilian employee of the air base.
The Chairman. How often would he come in to see Sobell?
Mr. Seay. In frequently. It is difficult for me to say. I
wasn't directly associated with the project Mr. Sobell was on.
The Chairman. You may think it is unimportant to give us
the names, but it is important that you give us the names of
everyone who came in to see Sobell. Out of ten nine might not
be important but the tenth one might be important.
Mr. Seay. I will do my best. You will have to remember that
was over two years. I believe there was a Mr. Duncan.
The Chairman. Who is he?
Mr. Seay. He is head of the Helipot Corporation.
The Chairman. Was he doing business with Reeves?
Mr. Seay. Yes, sir. He still does business with Reeves.
The Chairman. As far as you know he would just come in on
business?
Mr. Seay. I'd like to retract that statement. I don't know
of any specific time he came to see Sobell.
The Chairman. How about Cornell? Was that the first name
you gave, Cornell?
Mr. Seay. Cornell was head of the project at Rome, which
was then Watson Laboratories. Sobell was project engineer at
Reeves.
The Chairman. Did Cornell see Sobell in the course of his
work?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. Only in the course of his work?
Mr. Seay. That was the only information I had.
The Chairman. Keeping in mind that he was committing
espionage at that particular time, I wish you would search your
memory a little more carefully for these names?
How about Greenblum, Carl Greenblum?
Mr. Seay. I don't believe he had occasion to visit Sobell.
The Chairman. Do you know Greenblum?
Mr. Seay. Yes, I did.
The Chairman. You have only given me the name of one person
who visited Sobell. I am going to ask you when you leave here
to try and make a list of other people who visited Sobell and
give the description of who they are, in business as far as you
know and who visited him socially. You will be considered
giving that under oath.
Do I understand at this time that the only man you know of
who visited Sobell was this man Cornell?
Mr. Seay. It has been two years since this incident. At the
time I was not directly associated with the project involved. I
only know Mr. Cornell visited there; that he was the project
engineer--
The Chairman. Did you ever see him talk to Sobell?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. You didn't assume he talked to him?
Mr. Seay. I know he was there in connection with the
project and with Sobell.
The Chairman. How large was this office you and Sobell
worked in?
Mr. Seay. The office was about--approximately eight people,
eight desks.
The Chairman. Was it as big as this room?
Mr. Seay. About as big as this end.
The Chairman. You worked there how many years?
Mr. Seay. I was in that office--It is difficult to say. I
have been in six or eight different offices. Probably a year at
the least.
The Chairman. It seems with Sobell in there you could think
of a few more people who visited him?
Mr. Seay. I concur.
The Chairman. Let me ask you this: When Sobell was indicted
for espionage, where were you working?
Mr. Seay. I was at Reeves.
The Chairman. How long before that had Sobell been at
Reeves?
Mr. Seay. He had been at Reeves, let's see, this was
possibly two or three years. I don't know. I believe he came to
Reeves about 1947 or 1948. If I am not mistaken he was there at
the time I came in 1947.
The Chairman. Now long before he was indicated did he leave
Reeves?
Mr. Seay. Possibly a couple of weeks before on vacation.
The Chairman. A couple of weeks before he was indicted he
was working in the office where you were?
Mr. Seay. Yes.
The Chairman. When you heard he was indicted didn't it make
some impression on you, and didn't you go over in your mind the
people who were visiting him?
Mr. Seay. Not to any great extent. I was concerned about
the problem, highly concerned.
The Chairman. Didn't you stop to think who had been
visiting in the office? He is a man accused of espionage,
punishable by death. You were working in the same office with
him, had been there up to the week before over a period of a
year. Didn't you stop and say to yourself: Is it true? Who was
at the scene? Who was involved?
Mr. Seay. I would like to put in one comment. We have
complete records at Reeves indicating who was there to see
Sobell all during that period. I think that would be much more
factual.
The Chairman. Reeves keeps a record of anyone who com 