Homeland Security

DATE=4/6/2004

TYPE=INTERVIEW

TITLE=LUGAR / NUCLEAR TERRORISM

NUMBER=3-904

BYLINE=DAVID BORGIDA

DATELINE=WASHINGTON

INTRO:

In focus today, nuclear proliferation -- It's the main issue in the second part of my interview with Senator Richard Lugar -- a Republican from Indiana -- and the widely respected Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations committee. I asked Senator Lugar about concerns over nuclear weapons programs in Iran, North Korea, and now Brazil.

SENATOR LUGAR:

Mr. ElBaradei, who is head of the IAEA, the United Nations atomic energy inspection group, was in this office just two weeks ago, prior to going over to the White House to brief the President on what he saw in Iran. Now, what he sees there is a program in which the people who are involved with nuclear have moved toward highly enriched uranium for enriching it; that seems to be clear. What is not clear is the purposes for that, why they did it. And, likewise, the reticence of the Iranians to be very forthcoming has been frustrating to the IAEA, quite apart from European friends and the United States.

Now, there are different strategies as to how to approach this. I think Mr. ElBaradei is cautious about bringing it before the Security Council at this point, feeling that diplomacy still has some room to work here and that people will come to the conclusion that they ought to stop any weaponization ideas. Hopefully the Russians will agree with that. They have been talking very stoutly about reclaiming spent fuel and recycling it back to Russia, as opposed to letting things proceed in Iran.

But this one is still in play, and all observers ought to be observing very, very closely, as is the U.N. and the allies.

Now, likewise, the negotiations in North Korea continue, albeit bilaterally right now -- that is, the Chinese with the North Koreans, or the Russians with the Chinese, or the United States with any of the other partners -- with a hope that something can be revived. The North Koreans, however, have been giving rumors to the effect that perhaps not until our elections are over in November will the time be propitious. That is sort of a broad hope that perhaps President Bush will not be reelected and what they perceive would be a more friendly government.

Now, I think their perception is wrong there. I think that, in a bipartisan way, the North Koreans face a United States that is determined to get rid of the reactor plutonium before it is weaponized there. But, likewise, we and our other conferees are confused as to what the highly enriched uranium project is, where it is, how far it has gone. And the North Koreans have not been very forthcoming. So, in any event, more diplomacy over there.

Now, this is enriched by the revelations of A.Q. Khan, or, more particularly, the Pakistani Government, pointing out all the shipments made out of Pakistan to North Korea, Iran, and Libya.

MR. BORGIDA:

And with the news about Brazil and its plan, do you go to bed at night, or do you talk to your grandchildren, and think to yourself it's a safer or less safe world on the nuclear issue?

SENATOR LUGAR:

Well, I think the fact is that, even if Brazil has proceeded back into the nuclear business -- and this would be surprising, in fact; I remember visiting Brazil 20 years ago and hearing the defense minister describe a program that they had gotten underway, but assuring me that they were going back downhill, that this was a bad idea. I thought they had come to that conclusion, and maybe they still have. So we still have to check out really that one.

But still, the number of states involved in all this is a fairly short list. This is not something like al-Qaida that might be in 60 places. And it is up to the great nations of the world really to define precisely who is doing what, and then at least to put the full pressure of the international community to get people to wind it up. Or, at minimum, to secure the materials and/or weapons, if they have them, so that they are not subject to proliferation to terrorists or to other unexpected sources.

Those are very serious issues in which United States leadership is being given.

MR. BORGIDA:

We've talked about proliferation in several places now. You mentioned al-Qaida, and I would like to move into that area for a moment. There is concern that, as some have said, al-Qaida and groups that support it have become franchised in different places around the world. We've seen developments in Spain. The European leaders seem to be making a bit of a greater effort in terms of arresting known terrorists, people that they believe may have played a role in some of the bombings in Spain. What are your thoughts on that? Enough support from around the world on the anti-terror front, or not enough?

SENATOR LUGAR:

Well, essentially, our government believes -- correctly or incorrectly -- that about 70 percent of the al-Qaida leadership has either been captured or killed since hostilities began in Afghanistan. Having said that, however, the al-Qaida network has become more diffuse. More leaders may have bobbed up who may be very local in their situations, very loosely connected with the total network, if at all, and that this remains a very severe problem due to the sheer numbers of these and the situations that are there.