[Senate Hearing 111-644]
[From the U.S. Government Printing Office]
S. Hrg. 111-644
NOMINATIONS OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS AND ELIZABETH M. HARMAN
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON
HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
UNITED STATES SENATE
of the
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
NOMINATIONS OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS TO BE DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF
COUNTERNARCOTICS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, AND
ELIZABETH M. HARMAN TO BE ASSISTANT ADMINISTRATOR, FEDERAL EMERGENCY
MANAGEMENT AGENCY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
DECEMBER 10, 2009
__________
Available via http://www.gpoaccess.gov/congress/index.html
Printed for the use of the
Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs
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COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS
JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut, Chairman
CARL LEVIN, Michigan SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine
DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TOM COBURN, Oklahoma
THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware JOHN McCAIN, Arizona
MARK L. PRYOR, Arkansas GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio
MARY L. LANDRIEU, Louisiana JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada
CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri LINDSEY GRAHAM, South Carolina
JON TESTER, Montana ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah
ROLAND W. BURRIS, Illinois
PAUL G. KIRK, JR., Massachusetts
Michael L. Alexander, Staff Director
Beth M. Grossman, Senior Counsel
Kristine V. Lam, Professional Staff Member
Blas Nunez-Neto, Professional Staff Member
Jason T. Barnosky, Professional Staff Member
Brandon L. Milhorn, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Robert L. Strayer, Minority Director for Homeland Security Affairs
Jennifer L. Tarr, Minority Counsel
Christopher J. Keach, Minority Professional Staff Member
Adam J. Killian, Minority Professional Staff Member
Trina Driessnack Tyrer, Chief Clerk
Patricia R. Hogan, Publications Clerk and GPO Detailee
Laura W. Kilbride, Hearing Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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Opening statements:
Page
Senator Lieberman............................................ 1, 11
Senator Collins.............................................. 2, 13
Prepared statements:
Senator Lieberman........................................... 25, 28
Senator Collins............................................. 27, 30
WITNESSES
Thursday, December 10, 2009
Grayling G. Williams to be Director, Office of Counternarcotics
Enforcement, U.S. Department of Homeland Security.............. 3
Elizabeth M. Harman to be Assistant Administrator, Federal
Emergency Management Agency, U.S. Department of Homeland
Security....................................................... 14
Alphabetical List of Witnesses
Harman, Elizabeth M.:
Introduction submitted by Senator Mikulski................... 11
Testimony.................................................... 14
Prepared statement........................................... 71
Biographical and financial information....................... 73
Letter from Office of Government Ethics...................... 81
Responses to pre-hearing questions........................... 82
Responses to post-hearing questions.......................... 109
Letter from Ms. Harman submitted by Senator Collins.......... 112
Letters of support........................................... 113
Williams, Grayling G.:
Testimony.................................................... 3
Prepared statement........................................... 31
Biographical and financial information....................... 33
Letter from Office of Government Ethics...................... 41
Responses to pre-hearing questions........................... 42
Letters of support........................................... 65
NOMINATIONS OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS AND ELIZABETH M. HARMAN
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THURSDAY, DECEMBER 10, 2009
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Homeland Security
and Governmental Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in
room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Joseph I.
Lieberman, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
Present: Senators Lieberman and Collins.
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN
Chairman Lieberman. The hearing will come to order. Good
morning and welcome to this hearing at which we are going to
consider the nomination of Grayling Williams to be the Director
of the Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement (CNE) at the
Department of Homeland Security (DHS).
I want to note at the outset that after we consider Mr.
Williams' nomination, the Committee will move immediately to
consider the nomination of Elizabeth Harman, who has been
nominated to be Assistant Administrator for the Federal
Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) in charge of the Grant
Programs Directorate (GPD).
But let us begin with the Office of Counternarcotics
Enforcement. It was created as part of the Homeland Security
Act of 2002 and strengthened by the Intelligence Reform and
Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004, the so-called 9/11 Commission
legislation--both of which, I am proud to say, came out of this
Committee. The idea here was to create an office to coordinate
the counternarcotics policies and operations of the Department
of Homeland Security's many component agencies and to
coordinate policy with other Federal, State, and local law
enforcement agencies to halt the flow of illegal drugs into the
United States.
CNE is responsible for recommending appropriate levels of
financial and personnel resources within DHS to address the
drug-trafficking threat and works very closely with the Joint
Terrorism Task Forces (JTTFs) to track and sever connections
between illegal drug trafficking and terrorism.
Frankly, the office, in my opinion, has never been more
vital to the mission of the Department of Homeland Security
than it is today. As this Committee learned in a set of
hearings earlier this year which focused on violence on the
southern border, the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) has
labeled the Mexican drug cartels as the No. 1 organized crime
threat in America today. The cartels have used the cash and
guns they transport south across the border to declare war on
the Mexican government, which has led to a series of brutal
attacks on Mexican officials, including beheadings and mass
murders.
If this level of violence against a government occurred
elsewhere in the world, we would quickly call it terrorism. And
I think that is exactly what the cartels have become:
Narcoterrorists. The Mexican government, led by President
Calderon, has taken courageous and unprecedented steps to take
on these cartels and to strengthen and re-impose, if you will,
the rule of law. But despite the Mexican government's best
efforts, the level of violence in Mexico is still much too
high. The Department of Homeland Security itself has projected
a 40-percent increase in drug cartel-driven murders in Mexico
this year, and that is over the very high levels of last year.
Mr. Williams, if you are confirmed, you will be, of course,
a key player in our efforts to combat these threats I have just
described and generally the threats of drug trafficking. I know
you will have to work tirelessly to strengthen our defenses
against increasing levels of drug-related violence along our
southern border, but also the growing level of sophistication
in the tactics used by drug traffickers. For example, the
cartels are exploiting a loophole in our money-laundering laws
that allows drug traffickers to use stored value cards to
launder their drug profits, and I hope you will work with us to
ensure that this loophole is closed, should you be confirmed.
Mr. Williams, I believe, is exceedingly well qualified to
take on these challenges of this position after a 23-year
career at the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA). Since
2008, he has served there as Chief of Staff to the Chief of
Operations at DEA, following earlier tours of duty, if you
will, as Section Chief/Assistant Special Agent in Charge at DEA
Headquarters Operations Division, and before all that work at
DEA, I am proud to say, Mr. Williams was in law enforcement in
the State of Connecticut and got part of his extraordinary
educational background at universities in the State of
Connecticut as well, including Yale and the University of New
Haven.
So I welcome you before this Committee. I look forward to
hearing your statement and your plans, if confirmed, and I am
very proud now to call on our Ranking Member, Senator Susan
Collins.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COLLINS
Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
As the Chairman has pointed out, this nomination comes
before us at a time when the threat to our Nation posed by
illegal drug trafficking is escalating.
Earlier this year, the Committee held two hearings on
violence along the southwest border being perpetrated by
Mexican drug cartels. The horrific bloodshed that has resulted
in the deaths of thousands in Mexico is not constrained to the
southern side of the border. It has, on multiple occasions,
spilled over into the United States leading to murders,
kidnappings, and other violent crimes. The cartels' trafficking
and the associated violence demand increased attention at the
Department and across the Federal Government.
The 2009 National Southwest Border Counternarcotics
Strategy noted an even greater threat to our homeland security,
and that is, the possibility of collaboration between drug
cartels and terrorist groups. The strategy noted that the same
smuggling routes and techniques used to bring narcotics across
the border could be exploited to smuggle in ``terrorists and
weapons of terror.'' Our homeland security officials must fight
this potential threat, working closely with the many security
elements arrayed against illegal drug trafficking.
Coordinating DHS's work with these security elements at the
Federal, State, and local levels is among the primary
responsibilities of the Director of the Office of
Counternarcotics Enforcement. The Director serves as the
Secretary's primary adviser on all counternarcotics issues and
coordinates DHS's enforcement efforts across the Department and
with other Federal, State, and local entities. Working with
Joint Terrorism Task Forces, CNE also must help to detect and
disrupt any connections between drug trafficking and terrorist
groups.
Mr. Williams comes before this Committee with more than 20
years of experience in our Nation's counternarcotics efforts,
and I look forward to hearing his views this morning.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you very much, Senator Collins.
Let me say for the record that Mr. Williams has filed
responses to a biographical and financial questionnaire,
answered pre-hearing questions submitted by the Committee, and
has had his financial statements reviewed by the Office of
Government Ethics. Without objection, this information will be
made part of the hearing record with the exception of the
financial data, which are on file and available for public
inspection in the Committee offices.
Mr. Williams, our Committee rules require that all
witnesses at nomination hearings give their testimony under
oath, so I would ask you to please stand and raise your right
hand.
Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give to
the Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Mr. Williams. Yes, I do.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you very much. Please be seated.
We would welcome at this point any opening statement you would
like to make, as well as introduction of any family or friends
who are with you this morning.
TESTIMONY OF GRAYLING G. WILLIAMS TO BE DIRECTOR,\1\ OFFICE OF
COUNTERNARCOTICS ENFORCEMENT, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND
SECURITY
Mr. Williams. Thank you and good morning, Senator Lieberman
and Senator Collins, and distinguished Members of the
Committee. I am honored to appear before you today.
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\1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Williams appears in the Appendix
on page 31.
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I am deeply humbled by the confidence that President Obama
has shown in me by nominating me to be the second Director of
the Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement at the Department of
Homeland Security, and I am very grateful to Secretary
Napolitano for her support.
Right now I would like to introduce you to my brother,
Darwin Cadogan, who has spent 30 years as a special agent with
the Bureau of Diplomatic Security at the Department of State
and, prior to that, as a corrections officer with the New York
City Corrections Department.
Also here is my niece, Rhonda Cadogan, of whom I am very
proud, and also a few of my colleagues from the Drug
Enforcement Administration, most notably the Deputy Chief of
Intelligence, Judith Bertini. They have all been very
supportive of me.
Last, and perhaps most important, I would like to thank my
children, Brianna and Grayling, who are with me in spirit and,
I understand, watching this hearing online through the
Committee website.
Chairman Lieberman. Good.
Mr. Williams. Should I be confirmed, I look forward to
working with the dedicated men and women of CNE and the entire
Department of Homeland Security to protect our Nation from
threats and ensuring that CNE is an effective and valued member
of the counternarcotics enterprise. There are several members
of CNE that are also here today with us.
If confirmed, I will draw upon my almost 29-year career as
a law enforcement officer, which includes 22 years as a special
agent of the Drug Enforcement Administration. I have worked on
the front lines of the War on Drugs as a case and undercover
agent and as a supervisor. I know what it takes to coordinate a
successful drug enforcement operation in a multi-jurisdictional
task force environment. I also have experience managing
headquarters' staff; directing, coordinating, and planning
programs; and motivating and mentoring employees. I have
acquired the knowledge, skills, and abilities necessary to
provide competent and accountable leadership, and I have
learned how to achieve change within an organization.
Moreover, from working foot patrol in New Haven,
Connecticut, as a member of the Yale University Police
Department, to developing complex drug conspiracy
investigations for DEA, to conducting undercover operations
training for the Polish National Police in Warsaw, I have
developed collaborative working relationships with many State
and local police departments, Federal agencies, and
international law enforcement entities. In fact, in my current
position at DEA headquarters, I oversee studies and projects
focused specifically on interagency collaboration--affording me
a unique understanding of the interagency process and how to
strengthen partnerships across the Federal Government.
Today, our Nation faces a difficult challenge: How do we
combat the illicit drug trade and smuggling activities while
facilitating the legitimate movement of goods and people across
our borders? Highly complex and sophisticated criminal
organizations test our Nation's security on a daily basis by
attempting to smuggle drugs, people, weapons, and money across
our borders. Moreover, these criminal organizations are
constantly evolving, forcing us to re-think our methods for
dealing with them.
Part of the Department of Homeland Security's primary
mission, as set forth in the Homeland Security Act of 2002, is
to ``monitor connections between illegal drug trafficking and
terrorism, coordinate efforts to sever such connections, and
otherwise contribute to efforts to interdict illegal drug
trafficking.'' CNE is a unique office geared toward
coordinating DHS's efforts to fulfill this mandate. CNE both
coordinates the Department's work with State, local, and tribal
law enforcement on these issues and represents the Department
within the interagency community on counternarcotics policy and
operations. If confirmed, I will lead the office in its efforts
to fully and effectively carry out these responsibilities.
First, CNE will ensure coordination of DHS's
counternarcotics activities along the borders. We will
strengthen the office's partnerships within and outside the
Department. Second, I will ensure that the DHS counternarcotics
enterprise succeeds by assessing the resources needed to
fulfill the Department's mission. Third, I will work with DHS
component heads to ensure that each component is properly
incorporating the Department's mandate to track and sever the
ties between drug trafficking and terrorism.
Additionally, I will establish a proactive, positive
relationship with Secretary Napolitano's other advisers on
policy and operational matters and further develop previously
established mechanisms, such as the Counternarcotics
Coordinating Council. I will also work with the interagency
community by establishing regular contact with non-DHS
officials and entities and strengthening outreach and
collaboration with State, local, and tribal officials.
In conclusion, I believe that my background and experience
have prepared me to take on the significant and varied
responsibilities of the Director of the Office of
Counternarcotics Enforcement. I would like to thank the
Committee for considering my nomination.
Thank you.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you, Mr. Williams. Thanks very
much for an excellent, really clear opening statement. I am
going to start the questioning with the three questions we ask
of all nominees.
First, is there anything you are aware of in your
background that might present a conflict of interest with the
duties of the office to which you have been nominated?
Mr. Williams. No, sir.
Chairman Lieberman. Second, do you know of anything,
personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from
fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the
office to which you have been nominated?
Mr. Williams. No.
Chairman Lieberman. And, third, do you agree without
reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and
testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if
you are confirmed?
Mr. Williams. Absolutely, sir.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you very much.
Let me, in my first couple of questions, pick up on a few
of the statements that you made. Obviously, the primary
responsibility of this office to which you have been nominated
is coordination of the various assets within the Department of
Homeland Security. Because CNE does not have an operational
role, like Customs and Border Protection (CBP) or the Coast
Guard, it depends on the component agencies providing
sufficient information in order to execute its mission.
I have heard that the DHS component agencies, for instance,
only report their counternarcotics performance measures to CNE
twice a year and that the Counternarcotics Coordinating
Council, which includes the head of all the operational
agencies and is chaired by the CNE Director, the position to
which you have been nominated, has met very rarely in the past.
So I wanted to ask you what thoughts do you have, what
ideas do you have, what plans do you have to require more
sharing of counternarcotics information on a real-time basis.
And, for instance, what thoughts do you have about the use you
would make of the Counternarcotics Coordinating Council?
Mr. Williams. Senator, I would like to say that if I am
confirmed, what I would like to do is get into the position and
reinvigorate the Counternarcotics Coordinating Council. I see
that as a vital component in carrying out our mission of
coordinating and developing strategies with those entities such
as Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE), CBP, and the
Coast Guard that have a counternarcotics mission. So I would
like to reinvigorate that whole program and get that started
again.
The other thing that is important on getting information
from our components is, I would like to pursue having detailees
from each of those components--ICE, CBP, and the Coast Guard--
work at CNE on a regular headquarters detail.
Chairman Lieberman. That is a very good idea. That reminds
me of what I was going to ask you, just a basic fact question.
Approximately how many people are working directly in CNE now,
do you know?
Mr. Williams. We have about 15 staff members.
Chairman Lieberman. So it is a core headquarters staff and
a coordinating staff?
Mr. Williams. Yes.
Chairman Lieberman. How about the other part of this, which
you mentioned? And I will quote from one of your responses to
the Committee's questions, which is when you said, ``The major
external challenge facing CNE is to ensure the effective
coordination of the Department of Homeland Security's
counternarcotics efforts with other departments in the
interagency process.'' I wanted to ask you what ideas you have.
It is an important commitment, and I agree with you, that is a
priority. What are your specific ideas, if you have any now, to
implement that goal, that vision?
Mr. Williams. Well, a couple of ideas that come to mind are
I would like to be able to leverage my relationship with such
agencies as DEA, the FBI, and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives (ATF). I have lifelong friends and
relationships that are well established and that I would like
to be able to utilize.
One of the things for CNE is that we are supposed to
represent the Department on counternarcotics matters at
interagency working groups, policy and strategy task force
groups, and that is something that we need to continue and we
need to actually reinvigorate and move forward. So I would like
to continue that. But, again, the only way I am going to be
able to do that is if I am able to get a good, strong working
relationship with our components with a counternarcotics
mission because ultimately I will be representing them, looking
for resources for them to carry out their mission.
Chairman Lieberman. Good answer, and I appreciate it.
Let me ask you about the Mexican drug cartels, which both
Senator Collins and I referred to in our opening statements. As
a career agent and executive at DEA, I know you have a wealth
of knowledge about drug-trafficking organizations. I wanted to
ask you first, what is your assessment of the threat posed to
America by the Mexican drug cartels?
Mr. Williams. Well, my assessment actually mirrors that of
the statement of the FBI that the drug cartels are the major
organized crime threat to this country right now. I could not
agree more. This is a problem that we have to aggressively deal
with by good intelligence sharing and good collaboration and
old-fashioned detective work, get our agents and our Border
Patrol officers out there, working to disrupt their activities
and, when possible, to dismantle their cartel organizations.
We also need to keep in mind, because the Department has an
overarching mandate to protect the homeland and to protect us
from terrorism, we have to always look for that link if
possible between drug trafficking and terrorism. And we know
that exists. We see it in the Middle East in areas like
Afghanistan with what is going on there with the opium
production. So we have to monitor that with the Mexican drug
cartels and see if they have ever been approached by foreign
terrorist organizations.
Chairman Lieberman. Yes, I agree. We have had evidence
before the Committee of a concern that foreign terrorist groups
might actually link up with Mexican drug cartels to assist them
in entering the country illegally, but also to gain revenue to
carry out their plans against the United States.
Let me ask you to just go a little bit deeper, if you can,
if you have any thoughts about what the unique role of the
Office of Counternarcotics Enforcement would be in the battle
against the Mexican drug cartels, particularly with regard to
any of the component agencies of DHS.
Mr. Williams. Well, as you alluded to earlier, CNE is not
an operational component of DHS, nor is it an intelligence-
gathering component. So our main role is to work with our
component agencies--ICE, CBP, and the Coast Guard--to ensure
that whatever programs that they are pushing forward, they are
on point and on track, working with them, being their
representative on various committees.
One of the things that CNE was able to do, along with the
Office of the Deputy Attorney General, is to put together the
Southwest Border Counternarcotics Strategy.
Chairman Lieberman. Right.
Mr. Williams. Which is an excellent document. I just want
to say that for many years, law enforcement at the Federal
level has given resources to the southwest border, but it was
basically that DEA would do their thing, the FBI would do their
thing--before ICE, it was Customs, and Customs would do their
thing.
This is a road map now that basically spells out
everybody's responsibilities, and it gives them guidance on
what they should be doing and how they should be doing it, and,
more importantly, the sharing of information.
So CNE will be that group that is at the 30,000-foot level
and will be able to bring our components together as one DHS
and then take that message forward to the interagency, as well
as State and locals.
Chairman Lieberman. Good. Thank you. Senator Collins.
Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Let me follow up on the issues that the Chairman has
raised. I am very concerned from the work that we have done in
this Committee and from what I have seen at the Armed Services
Committee about the link between terrorism and drug
trafficking. You see it literally all over the world, and
certainly we see it in Afghanistan, where the proceeds from the
drug crop, the poppy crop, are used by terrorist groups such as
the Taliban.
That leads me to be very concerned that it is inevitable
that terrorist groups are going to link up with the Mexican
drug cartels to smuggle either terrorists into this country
using well-known successful smuggling routes or perhaps a
weapon of mass destruction of some sort.
I am curious what the relationship is between CNE and our
Joint Terrorism Task Forces and also the relationship between
CNE and the National Counterterrorism Center because CNE may
well have information about drug trafficking through the
components of DHS that would be very valuable to the Joint
Terrorism Task Forces or to the National Counterterrorism
Center (NCTC). So what kind of relationship exists now? And how
would you strengthen it?
Mr. Williams. Well, Senator Collins, your concerns are my
concerns also, and one of the things I will say is that, again,
not having that operational or intelligence-gathering component
under us, we do have an individual that is assigned to the
national JTTF, and we are looking at that because from my years
of experience, it is more appropriate to leverage our
operators--our ICE operators, our CBP officers, Border Patrol
agents, Coast Guard folks--because those are the men and women
who are out there doing the job every day.
My staff, which is only 15 people, are not on the ground.
They are not operationally engaged. So what we would do is work
with them to identify those associations. Besides the JTTF,
there is the Special Operations Division (SOD) run by the Drug
Enforcement Administration that has a counterterrorism
component. If there is any information that comes up in a drug
investigation, there is already a unit in place at SOD to which
you are to turn that information over for ultimate exploitation
by the FBI.
So I would look to make sure that our components are
working, not just with the JTTF, but also in areas such as SOD
and the Organized Crime Drug Enforcement Task Force (OCDETF)
Fusion Center. The important key here is, as you mentioned, to
get the information and then get it out to the right people so
that information can be acted upon.
Senator Collins. The Chairman and I are very sensitive to
that issue because we have worked for so many years to change
the culture in the Federal Government to one of sharing
essential information, not only across the Federal Government
but with our State and local partners, and that is why I am
particularly pleased with your background because you will
understand who has the information and why it must be shared.
But as the case involving the massacre at Fort Hood certainly
appears to suggest, we still have barriers to the sharing of
absolutely vital information.
I also want to join the Chairman in expressing concerns
about stored value cards. An important part of the
counternarcotics effort is to interdict and seize cash from the
drug trade, and we have been very concerned about an emerging
trend where money is smuggled across the border in an
electronic format such as stored value cards. And we all know
that if you cross the border with $10,000 or more in cash,
Federal law requires that to be declared. Any of us who have
ever checked that box on the Customs form is aware of that
regulation--not that I have ever had to worry about having
$10,000 with me.
But there is a glaring loophole in that stored value cards
are not deemed as ``monetary instruments'' and they do not have
to be declared. And for this reason, the Chairman and I joined
forces once again, and when the credit card accountability bill
was on the floor in May, I offered an amendment with the
Chairman that required the Treasury Department, in consultation
with DHS, to issue regulations that should be aimed at
requiring stored value cards to be declared as well.
Unfortunately, I am told that the Treasury Department
appears to be extremely reluctant to issue regulations
regarding these cards.
What will you do to ensure that the intent of Congress--
since DHS has a role here, that is, these regulations are
supposed to be issued in consultation with DHS--is carried out
and that the regulations are issued?
Mr. Williams. Well, what I would like to get involved in is
already under discussion between DHS and, for instance, the
Financial Crimes Enforcement Network (FinCEN), a component of
the Treasury Department. As a matter of fact, it is our money-
laundering experts from ICE that are leading the charge in
looking at this issue of stored value cards. Any assistance,
any guidance or help that I can offer Immigration and Customs
Enforcement, the money-laundering gentlemen there that are
leading the charge, I would like our office to be able to be
involved in that. And if I can leverage assistance from such
agencies like DEA and their Office of Financial Operations to
get involved in the fight and even bring the FBI into it, I
will because everyone across the board in law enforcement sees
this as an evolving threat.
So the way this thing works is if we are supposed to stop
money being taken out of the country, drug proceeds, and you
are telling me that $500,000 can be put on a stored value card
and there is nothing that says that this person has to declare
it or give any information, that is a major problem for this
country and that is a major problem for law enforcement.
So whatever I can do--and I will do this in consultation,
again, with entities such as ICE and CBP--my office stands
ready.
Senator Collins. Great. Well, I hope that you will make
that a priority, assuming your confirmation, which I think is a
pretty good assumption, and that you will let the Chairman and
me know if you encounter resistance from the Treasury
Department on this. It is inconceivable to me that Treasury has
not acted. This is such a glaring loophole, and it does need to
be closed. So please do come back to us.
Let me just make one final comment, if I may, Mr. Chairman.
The southwest border obviously has gotten a great deal of
consideration and attention and warrants it. But my final
comment to you is do not forget the northern border as well.
That also is vulnerable. There are wide open stretches where
there is very little enforcement activity. That border is far
longer than our southern border, and it, too, is vulnerable to
smuggling of drugs. So I hope that as we appropriately, in
response to the Mexican cartel problem, focus resources and
efforts on the southwest border, we do not create a new
vulnerability on our northern border. Thank you.
Mr. Williams. Yes, thank you.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Collins. I agree.
Mr. Williams, thanks for your testimony. You have been very
responsive, and you have a great background, and I agree that I
hope your nomination goes sailing right through.
Just as I listened to you--and we have had a couple of
other nominees come forward--when we put this Department
together in response to September 11, 2001, we knew part of it
was to gain the benefits of collaboration and coordination that
were missing in a literal sense that implied a lot more to have
a place where the dots were connected. People were working
together to protect our security from natural disasters and
unnatural ones like terrorism and drug trafficking. But then we
came back and created positions like this one and in some sense
the Intelligence and Analysis Directorate (I&A), which were
aimed at creating within the Department of Homeland Security
people who would really work to coordinate the relevant people
in the 22 or so agencies of the Department so that the whole
would be greater than the sum of its parts. And obviously, that
is exactly what this office is about, and I think there is
tremendous potential to do things that have not been done in
that regard yet and that I am confident you have the ability
and experience to do. So I appreciate your willingness to
serve.
We are going to, without objection, keep the record of this
hearing open until tomorrow at 12 noon for the submission of
any written questions or statements for the record. If you get
any questions, I hope you will answer them as quickly as you
can, and to the extent that it is possible, and as you may know
from following the newspaper, the Senate is a highly
unpredictable organism. One never knows when it will move
quickly or not move at all. [Laughter.]
But hopefully it will move quickly and smoothly in regard
to your nomination, so I thank you very much, and we will now
close this part of the hearing.
Mr. Williams. Thank you, Senators. Thank you very much.
Chairman Lieberman. All the best.
We will now proceed to the hearing on the nomination of
Elizabeth Harman. Would you please come forward to the table?
[Pause.]
OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN LIEBERMAN
Chairman Lieberman. The hearing will reconvene. Ms. Harman,
welcome to the table. We are now going to consider your
nomination to be the Assistant Administrator for FEMA in charge
of the Grant Programs Directorate. You have drawn support from
a truly impressive array of people. First, I want to submit for
the record, without objection, a very strong statement on your
behalf from Senator Barbara Mikulski of Maryland, our
colleague.
[The prepared statement of Senator Mikulski follows:]
PREPARED STATEMENT OF SENATOR BARBARA MIKULSKI IN SUPPORT OF ELIZABETH
HARMAN
Mr. Chairman, I am happy to support the nomination of Elizabeth
Harman to become Assistant Administrator for the Federal Emergency
Management Agency. Ms. Harman's credentials, as well as her commitment
to the people of this country, make her an excellent choice for this
position.
I have three criteria that I use to evaluate all Executive Branch
nominees: Competence, integrity, and commitment to the core mission of
the Department. Based on these criteria, I wholeheartedly support
Elizabeth Harman to the FEMA Assistant Administrator Post.
Ms. Harman has served as the Director of the Hazardous Materials
and Weapons of Mass Destruction Training Department at the
International Association of Firefighters for the past 5 years. While
there, she has managed a program specifically targeted to disaster
preparation and response. In addition to her roles as a mentor and
teacher at various points throughout her career, Ms. Harman has been
out there herself--notably as Prince George's County Volunteer Fire
Fighter in our home State of Maryland for 8 years. She understands the
environment, and has the education and practical knowledge that will
only be an asset to the Department.
I am proud to join the Fraternal Order of Police, the International
Association of Fire Chiefs, and many others in endorsing this
nomination, and thank you for bringing this nomination forward for a
hearing.
Chairman Lieberman. The support comes from a very broad
array of leaders of the first responder community, a number of
whom are here today. I would note and welcome my dear friend,
Harold Schaitberger, the President of the International
Association of Fire Fighters (IAFF), and all the other
representatives of various first responder communities that are
here.
Your nomination has been endorsed not only by the IAFF, but
by the International Association of Fire Chiefs (IAFC), the
National Association of State Fire Marshals, the National Fire
Protection Association, the Fraternal Order of Police (FOP),
the National Association of Police Organizations, the National
Sheriffs' Association, and many individual leaders in the field
of response and emergency medical service. This reminds me of
all those old stories that say when you are this far ahead, you
probably should not answer any of the questions we ask. But it
is quite an impressive group of supporters.
The Grant Programs Directorate and the position of
Assistant Administrator in charge of grant programs are the
result of changes made by the Post-Katrina Emergency Management
Reform Act of 2006, which this Committee authored. Our goal
there was to create a new, stronger FEMA by bringing together
the Department's mission to prepare for natural and manmade
disasters with its mission to respond to those same disasters.
Homeland security grant programs were a key part of the
preparedness mission, and the new FEMA was to include a ``one-
stop shop'' for grant assistance to help State and local
governments and first responders to prepare for natural
disasters or terrorist attacks.
The Assistant Administrator for the Grant Programs
Directorate, the position for which you have been nominated, is
responsible for these programs. If confirmed, you would fully
administer about 20 of these programs to help prepare State,
local, and tribal governments, first responders, and nonprofit
organizations for acts of terrorism and natural disasters
through training and equipping police, firefighters, and other
first responders; and through better security at our ports and
transit systems. And you would be responsible additionally for
the financial management of another 30 grant programs that
assist victims post disaster and help communities mitigate
against potential damage from future disasters.
So this is a wide-ranging job, a big job, and big
responsibilities. But I do believe your strengths for this
nomination are as big as the responsibilities of the office. It
begins with the fact that you have been a firefighter and a
paramedic and, therefore, have in this case what certainly
would be called ``boots on the ground'' experience. You
understand, I am sure, from firsthand experience that proper
preparation and sufficient resources are keys to helping first
responders do the jobs that we ask them and you to do for us. I
am sure that you know the value of all-hazards training, in
other words, training for predictable emergencies such as fires
and floods, as well as the unpredictable, such as terrorist
attacks, and that you understand where Federal grants are being
spent, where they should be spent, and the value of consulting
first responders before spending decisions have been made.
Since 2005, Ms. Harman has been the Director of the
Hazardous Materials and Weapons of Mass Destruction training
program within the IAFF. She has held emergency medical
training positions at the University of Maryland Fire and
Rescue Institute, the Johns Hopkins University Medical School,
and the George Washington University. And as I mentioned, you
began your career as a firefighter and emergency medical
technician (EMT) in Bowie, Maryland, and Fairfax, Virginia.
A graduate of the George Washington University with a
degree in Emergency Medical Services Management, and from the
University of Maryland, a Master of Science in Emergency Health
Services, so you really bring quite an impressive background.
If confirmed, you will, of course, face a number of
challenges over the next few years, the most serious of which
may be the need to do more with less. Under the assumptions set
out in the fiscal year 2010 budget, by 2014 the Department will
be faced with a 13-percent budget cut in real terms from its
current funding level. I know that we, on this Committee, will
work hard to see if we can turn those projections around and,
as we have in the past, fight for more funding. I hope that
will be true. But even assuming it is based on the demands,
resources are inevitably going to be tight, and grant funding
is going to involve some tough decisions. So performance
measurement, I think, will gain in importance as resources must
be focused most on programs that work.
In both the Post-Katrina Act and the 9/11 Act of 2007, we
injected and put in various methods for ensuring that grant
funds are spent effectively. Up until this point, I must say
that many of those requirements have not been met, and I look
forward to your closing that gap when, if confirmed, you assume
this position.
Senator Collins.
OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COLLINS
Senator Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
First, let me join you in welcoming the first responder
organizations who are here today. They are friends in this
Committee. We have worked very closely with them on a number of
issues, and the fact that Ms. Harman has their support means a
lot to me as well.
Our Nation's homeland security grant programs are a vital
part of enhancing our capacity to prepare for, protect against,
and respond to a full range of natural disasters and manmade
hazards. And because terrorists do not always live and plan in
areas that they ultimately intend to strike, these grants must
ensure that all States--both large and small--are able to build
the capabilities to confront terrorist activity and to respond
effectively to all hazards.
As Senator Lieberman has indicated, we wrote the law that
restored the administration of the grant programs to FEMA. This
reform improved FEMA's ability to support State, local, and
tribal preparedness with funds for planning, training,
exercises, personnel, and equipment.
In addition to providing such critically needed funding to
improve the Nation's preparedness, FEMA must play another
important role in the administration of these grants, and that
is, to ensure wise spending of taxpayer dollars.
Since fiscal year 2002, the Department has awarded more
than $27 billion in homeland security grants. It seems every
year, the Chairman and I have to join forces to restore budget
cuts that Presidents of both parties have made in these
important programs. But given the size of this investment, it
is crucial that the Department can identify, measure, and
assess what this money has bought and what future investments
are needed. That is why Congress directed FEMA in 2006 to
establish performance metrics to assess the Nation's overall
level of preparedness.
To meet this mandate, the Department has developed the
Cost-to-Capabilities (C-2-C) initiative to measure the Nation's
return on this investment. After 19 months of development,
however, this program is still in its initial phases. The next
leader of the Department's grant programs must accelerate its
progress. After all, if we are going to keep advocating for the
investment that we believe is absolutely essential, we need to
be able to show our colleagues and the American people that the
money is well spent.
So I look forward to exploring these issues this morning
with our nominee. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you, Senator Collins.
Ms. Harman has filed responses to a biographical and
financial questionnaire, answered all the pre-hearing
questions, and had her financial statements reviewed by the
Office of Government Ethics. Without objection, this
information now will be made part of the hearing record except
for the financial data, which are on file and available for
public inspection in the Committee offices.
I think you know that the Committee rules require that all
witnesses at nomination hearings give their testimony under
oath, so I would ask you to please stand and raise your right
hand.
Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give to
the Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth, so help you, God?
Ms. Harman. I do.
Chairman Lieberman. I thank you. Please be seated. We will
be glad to hear an opening statement, if you have one, and the
introduction of any guests that you have with you.
TESTIMONY OF ELIZABETH M. HARMAN TO BE ASSISTANT
ADMINISTRATOR,\1\ FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY, U.S.
DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
Ms. Harman. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, Ranking
Member Collins, and Members of the Committee. I would like to
introduce to you my family who is here with me today: First and
foremost, my husband, Dwayne, who has supported me throughout;
my younger son, Nathan. My older son is on a field trip in New
York. I am sure he would prefer to be there. My father, Richard
Nalesnik. Over here I have my brother Christopher Nalesnik, and
my other brother Matthew Nalesnik.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ The prepared statement of Ms. Harman appears in the Appendix on
page 71.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Chairman Lieberman. Who is the guy behind you?
Ms. Harman. I wonder. Again, as far as introductions go, I
do not think this man needs one, but this is General President
Schaitberger from the International Association of Fire
Fighters, and I do give sincere thanks to all of those who have
supported me, and particularly the IAFF, which has given me an
opportunity to work for them not once but twice in a variety of
increased capacity and responsibility, and I thank them very
much for their continued support and both my personal and
professional growth. I am thankful to the IAFC as well as the
FOP and all the others who have also provided letters of
support.
I understand that Senator Mikulski could not be here this
morning due to a scheduling conflict, but I would like to thank
her for her written statement of support and for her years of
support for emergency responders throughout Maryland and across
the country.
I am privileged to appear before you today as President
Obama's nominee for Assistant Administrator of the Grant
Programs Directorate for the Federal Emergency Management
Agency. I would like to thank my family again who is here,
particularly my husband, who has always been very supportive of
me in the various decisions I have made in my life, and my
sons, who keep me very focused and driven.
Throughout my life, I have been surrounded by very hard-
working people, public servants who have always strived to do
what is right in their country. My father served in the Navy
and retired after 30 years with the Environmental Protection
Agency. My brother Richard served in the Army, my brother
Christopher in the Navy and has been in local law enforcement
with Prince Georges County, Maryland, for over 20 years now;
and my brother Matthew has served in the U.S. Secret Service.
The position of the Assistant Administrator of the Grant
Programs Directorate is a position of great responsibility as
one of its primary missions is to ensure that through Federal
funding our Nation is better prepared to respond to and
mitigate all-hazard events. The Post-Katrina Emergency
Management Reform Act centralized all Department of Homeland
Security grants at FEMA, providing a more integrated and
coordinated system of grant management. The challenge of the
Assistant Administrator position is to ensure that FEMA's grant
programs are administered responsibly and economically,
maximizing each dollar spent to improve our Nation's
capabilities and provide a strong return on investment.
As a former volunteer and professional firefighter, and as
a former paramedic, I have seen firsthand where these dollars
are being spent, have an idea where they should be spent, and
how important Federal funding is to building capability as well
as ensuring the health and safety of first responders
everywhere.
I understand the importance of including front-line
responders of all disciplines in the design and planning phase
of grant programs. Additionally, I understand the importance of
keeping these stakeholders informed throughout the decision-
making process.
Over the years, I have not only had the opportunity to
serve as a first responder on the front lines, both, again,
volunteer and career, but I have also been fortunate to serve
in other emergency response managerial, teaching, policy, and
leadership positions. I believe this experience has prepared me
well, and if confirmed as the Assistant Administrator of the
Grant Programs Directorate, I look forward to working with you
and your Committee.
As a young volunteer firefighter in Prince George's County,
Maryland, as a career firefighter with the City of Fairfax Fire
and Rescue, and as a member of IAFF Local 2702, I have
firsthand knowledge of the planning, training, and equipment
needed to perform the duties of a first responder. The City of
Fairfax department is a combined career and volunteer
organization. It provides fire suppression and emergency
medical services to over 22,000 residents. The department
responds to over 11,000 incidents, an average of over 30
responses per day from only two fire stations. It is a
privilege to have been affiliated with them.
In my tenure on the faculty of the University of Maryland,
Maryland Fire and Rescue Institute, I provided vital training
to first responders across the country to better prepare them
for all-hazard events. During my service at the Maryland
Emergency Management Agency as a State Administrator for
Exercise and Training with the National Capital Region, I
worked with various local, State, Federal, and private sector
partners to evaluate the effectiveness of response to both
small- and large-scale disasters. I helped coordinate disaster
declarations under the Stafford Act. I counseled counties on
the assistance that was available to them. I helped coordinate
Emergency Management Assistance Compact (EMAC) requests to
provide aid to affected areas. I led Maryland's National
Incident Management System (NIMS) rollout efforts. And during
the catastrophic events of Hurricanes Katrina and Rita, I
served as a State Liaison under the incident management system
and coordinated efforts to receive evacuees from affected
States.
Most recently, as the Director of the International
Association of Fire Fighters Hazardous Materials (HAZMAT) and
Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) Training Department, I have
been involved in all aspects of the Federal grant process, from
the interpretation of guidance, preparation of submission
packages, to financial and programmatic direction and
oversight, including oversight of IAFF grants that support
full-time staff, more than 100 instructors that train more than
12,000 responders each year. I have established a progressive
evaluation program to measure the effectiveness and impact of
these training programs, a program which has become the
evaluation model of several supporting Federal agencies.
If confirmed, I will work diligently to measure the current
level of preparedness to ensure Federal dollars have been
accounted for and are producing positive results. And I vow to
prioritize outreach efforts to ensure that grantees and
potential grantees are using these dollars wisely and are
building capabilities effectively. I also commit to cooperating
fully with this Committee as it fulfills its important
oversight function.
In closing, I am honored and humbled by this opportunity to
serve, and if confirmed, I pledge to work with Secretary
Napolitano, Administrator Fugate and the FEMA leadership team,
this Committee, and Congress to ensure that the FEMA Grant
Programs Directorate efficiently and effectively executes the
Department of Homeland Security's grant programs and properly
supports the reforms contained in the Post-Katrina Emergency
Reform Act and the Recommendations of the 9/11 Commission Act.
I thank you, Mr. Chairman and Senator Collins, for the
opportunity to appear before you today, and I look forward to
answering any questions that you may have.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks very much, Ms. Harman. That was
an excellent opening statement. I am going to start with the
standard three questions we ask all nominees.
First, is there anything you are aware of in your
background that might present a conflict of interest with the
duties of the office to which you have been nominated?
Ms. Harman. No.
Chairman Lieberman. Second, do you know of anything,
personal or otherwise, that would in any way prevent you from
fully and honorably discharging the responsibilities of the
office to which you have been nominated?
Ms. Harman. No.
Chairman Lieberman. And, third, do you agree without
reservation to respond to any reasonable summons to appear and
testify before any duly constituted committee of Congress if
you are confirmed?
Ms. Harman. Yes.
Chairman Lieberman. Thank you. Let me begin right inside
the Grant Programs Directorate. Staffing has been a consistent
problem of the Directorate. The Inspector General of DHS and
the Government Accountability Office (GAO) have pointed out
that shortages in staffing have adversely affected the
administration of grants. For example, staff shortages
reportedly contributed to delays in distribution of transit
security grants and also made it difficult for FEMA to conduct
comprehensive grant monitoring.
I wanted to ask you what your understanding is of the
staffing levels now and where does staffing fall among your
priorities if you enter this office, should you be confirmed.
Ms. Harman. Yes, Mr. Chairman, thank you. Staffing is a
consistent theme throughout all of the GAO reports and IG
reports that I have read over the last few months in
preparation for today and this position, if confirmed. The
staffing shortages, as I understand them, there are
approximately 30 shortages. That shortage is balanced with,
obviously, the use of contractors and the not so favorable view
of the usage of contractors throughout the Department.
There is much to do in this Directorate. There are a lot of
challenges ahead. And if you look at the recommendations in the
GAO reports and the IG reports, all of those recommendations
basically become my to-do list, if confirmed.
My first priority, aside from establishing our measurements
and our metrics to try to figure out what good all of the
funding that we have provided everyone has done, as well as
outreach efforts, is to take an aggressive approach to fill
those positions with full-time government employees. That is
the building block. There is, again, much to do, and we cannot
get that done without full-time staff. So I look forward, if
confirmed, to working with the FEMA leadership team as well as
the Human Resources Department to see what we can do to get
those positions filled quickly with qualified and energetic
people who are ready to take on the task.
Chairman Lieberman. That is good to hear, and obviously,
you cannot do all that we need you to do, particularly with
resources tight, unless you have a staff that can support your
effort.
Let me ask you another somewhat related question. I
mentioned all the programs that GPD administers, separate
preparedness grants. As a result, of course, several grants
from different programs may go to the same jurisdiction. And I
wanted to ask you whether you think there is an
overproliferation of specific grant programs and whether we
would be better off consolidating some of the many grant
programs into a smaller number of larger grant programs. Or do
you think that having a number of distinct targeted grant
programs is actually a more effective way of addressing the
range of homeland security challenges? Incidentally, if this is
a problem, it is not the fault of the Department. It is our
fault. So I am interested in from your experience what your
judgment on that question is.
Ms. Harman. Thank you. That is an excellent question. There
are a lot of grant programs. There are more than 50 programs
that this Directorate oversees, both administratively,
programmatically, and financially. Much of those programs are
coordinated through the subject matter experts in the various
fields, whether it be transit or the Coast Guard as far as the
port security goes. And the Grant Programs Directorate does
take the lead on that.
So, whether they are separate programs or they are combined
programs, each one of those programs has their specific goals
and objectives which need to be measured at the end. So, I have
not looked at them, whether they should be separate or
together, but I can certainly do so, if confirmed.
Now I know comprehensively with the IAFF, I oversee
anywhere from seven to eight different grant programs within my
department alone. Those have to be looked at comprehensively as
we work through each fiscal year, but also have to be looked at
separately, measured separately, reported on separately, and it
can be very challenging at times. So in the aspects of the
stakeholders, I would be interested to hear what the
stakeholders have to say and how they feel about that. Are
there too many programs, too much reporting? Would it be better
to put them all together? I mean, that is a very good question,
and if confirmed, we can certainly look at that.
Chairman Lieberman. Well, I urge you to do that, and I do
not have a real judgment on it myself. It is just a question
that I have thought about, and I would look forward to working
with you on it as you pursue it.
Incidentally, another possibility is to set up some
mechanism by which your office is pushing and in some sense
ensuring that multiple grants to a single jurisdiction or area
are used, even if they are distinct, synergistically to create
greater capabilities than if they are not coordinated.
Ms. Harman. Absolutely.
Chairman Lieberman. Let me go to the question of measuring
performance that we talked about. We talked about the Post-
Katrina Act, the provisions we put in to ensure that grants are
being spent effectively, yet in a recent hearing before the
House Homeland Security Committee, the Deputy FEMA
Administrator for National Preparedness acknowledged that FEMA
did not yet have an accurate way of measuring the preparedness
of States or determining to what extent preparedness has
actually improved as a result of the homeland security grants.
And so I wanted to ask you, if confirmed, whether you have any
specific steps you plan to take to develop performance measures
for preparedness and also to assess the impact of the broad
homeland security grants.
Ms. Harman. Thank you. I am familiar with the testimony
that was given by Deputy Administrator Manning. I watched it on
the webcast there. And I am very familiar with the C-2-C
program. I have been briefed on that.
Chairman Lieberman. Good.
Ms. Harman. I understand it is in the pilot phase right
now. It has had some stakeholder involvement, and it is
progressing forward. And if confirmed, I look forward to
analyzing the results of that to see how to move forward.
The measurement of preparedness overall with all of the
billions of dollars that have been invested into building
capability is a huge undertaking. I can speak firsthand of just
the programs that I run in measuring performance. We have a
model program. That is easy to do when you have a small group
of people, you are measuring training, you are measuring their
performance, whether or not your training is any good, and are
folks retaining information. It is easier to do on a small
scale. But on a much grander scale, particularly as we look at
capabilities across the Nation, States that require one set of
capabilities to respond to, let us just say, earthquakes or
tornadoes versus other States that may not necessarily need to
prepare for that, it is a huge undertaking on how you are going
to mesh those together and come up with a quantifiable and
qualifiable answer to give you on how prepared are we.
I can speak from firsthand knowledge of being a volunteer
in Prince George's County, understanding the equipment that was
provided to me at that time many years ago, progressing into a
career position with the City of Fairfax, and knowing the
advanced equipment that was provided at that time. The money
that has been invested into our first responders and capability
I can attest to firsthand, and it provides for safety, it
provides interoperability and communications. But to take that
information and quantify it and say what good has it done
collectively, I think we have a lot of work to do on that. So,
if confirmed, I look forward to working with you on that, and
this Committee, and progressing through and looking at the C-2-
C program that we have already invested in and seeing where
that takes us.
Chairman Lieberman. Good. Thank you. Senator Collins.
Senator Collins. Let me pick up where the Chairman just
left off in talking to you about the C-2-C program. It is my
understanding that just last week the Department sent out an e-
mail telling the pilot participants that the Department has
decided to close the pilot. It looks like they are halting it
because of negative feedback from the State and local users.
I applaud FEMA for being responsive to the needs and
concerns of stakeholders, but I am concerned that this pilot,
which has been in existence for 19 months, has still not been
brought to fruition. And if we are reading the e-mail
correctly, it looks like it may never be brought to fruition.
That obviously is not acceptable.
It seems to me that FEMA would have been much better off if
at the beginning of designing a program to assess the value and
effectiveness of grant investments, it brought together the
first responder communities, State emergency managers, local
emergency managers, and sat down and discussed what is the best
way to assess the effectiveness of the Federal investment. That
is sort of a negotiated rulemaking approach, which I think
always improves the process.
How do you plan to proceed with this initiative now?
Ms. Harman. That is a very wise suggestion you make to
bring stakeholders together, and obviously, that is what we
want to do. We want to be careful with any measurement tool. As
the Federal Government, we are responsible to say what good our
funding and our support has gotten us. What is our return on
investment? What good have we done over all of these years?
Stakeholder involvement is very important, and not everyone
who sits around the table--they need to be invited to the
table. They do not always get what they want. There is a little
bit of push and shove sometimes. But we want to make sure folks
have the money, have the funding to build the capabilities, but
they need to understand, they need to report to us in some
fashion, in some metric that we determine what that is
collectively, hopefully, so that we do not burden them with any
reporting requirements.
As the Chairman indicated earlier, there are numerous grant
programs out there, all of them on various different cycles,
different grant periods, different reporting requirements. It
can be very challenging.
I am not familiar with the e-mail that you referenced.
However, the advantage that I see to the C-2-C program--
although it has taken a long time and I am not familiar with
the inception of that, so I will certainly look into that, if
confirmed--is that it is building on existing investments that
the Federal Government has already made. It is looking and
using metrics such as the target capabilities list, the
universal task list, the national scenarios as a foundation for
measurement, which I think is an asset to the program, but how
that works, we need to really look at that.
Pilot phases, it is good that there is stakeholder
involvement, and I am curious to see what would halt--I do not
know if it was halted or we are just moving into another phase
of that. But knowing the investment that has already been made
into the C-2-C program, I certainly, if confirmed, will take a
look at that and find out where we are. We do not want to throw
the baby out with the bath water, but if there are improvements
that can be made and stakeholder involvement that has already
come in, and if it has not come in, we need to make sure it
does come in, so that we have a solid program and can make a
determination whether we need to move forward or move into
another direction.
Senator Collins. Thank you. I want to bring up an issue
that was covered in some of the pre-hearing questions. As you
know, most of the DHS grant programs contain a requirement that
the grantee match part of the grant, and the reason for that
and the reason that I have supported having some kind of match
is you want the State or local entity to be invested, to have
some skin in the game, to make sure that it is not just a
Federal handout but, rather, a true partnership to improve
capabilities. But in your response to a pre-hearing question,
you expressed concern about the use of matches.
Now, I recognize that we are in very difficult economic
times right now, and there may be a valid reason to suspend or
lower the match to get us through this budget time that is
causing so many State and local governments to have to cut
back. But, in general, your concern seems to be over the
administrative burden of the match requirement.
I need to clarify this issue with you. What is your view on
requiring a match from the grantee?
Ms. Harman. I respect your approach and your desire to have
matches in the programs, and certainly I understand that there
is various legislation, the 9/11 Act and others, that requires
matches in the grant programs. And certainly if that is
legislated, that is how the grants will be executed.
The question in the questionnaire referenced my answer to
whether or not I thought a match should be waived. My question
back was: What good do matches do for us? What do we get? Aside
from a concept of buy-in, I have not seen any data that
suggests that matches get us a better bang for the buck at the
end. I think in theory they do. You would think if you are a
teenager and you are going to buy a $25,000 car and your father
says, ``I will give you a $25,000 car if you put $5,000 into
it,'' that is great. I am thrilled. But when it comes to grant
dollars, what does that mean for our grantees and the end user?
Are they deterred by that? Do they not apply because there is a
match? Do they finally get to the point where they are eligible
to apply for a grant that requires a match, receive it, and
then go through some sort of hardship, whether it is the
economy or personal business hardship, that requires them to
turn that money back in to us? What does that mean for the
program?
So I throw those questions out there and, if confirmed and
I am asked if a grant should require a match, if we should
negate an existing match, or if a grant should be waived, my
personal experience with administering grants with matches, it
was a disaster. It was very difficult. You have cash matches.
You have in-kind matches. The burden on doing the math behind
an in-kind match and sometimes internally having interpretation
differences between the programmatic side and the accounting
side takes away the focus from the program when you are just
worried about numbers sometimes on a page.
So I think, if confirmed in this position and I am asked
should a match be required, should it be waived, should it be
negated, I would like to see the data to see what does that do
for us? Do we have more applicants when a match is not
required? Do we have less applicants? And if we are looking to
really provide a diverse support for folks, particularly in
small rural areas that may not have the infrastructure, the
administrative support, or the cash to calculate and pony up
that 25 percent, or whatever it may be, we might be deterring
them from building the capability.
So I just want to make sure that, if confirmed and I am in
this position, I have the data to properly inform either the
Secretary who has the option of making a waiver or this
Committee to decide what you want to do with the legislation as
opposed to just using my personal experience where I did not
care for a match.
Senator Collins. Well, I am concerned about your response.
It is certainly understandable from the perspective of a local
or State official or first responder that you would want no
match at all. I mean, who would not want just Federal money?
But I think if we are talking about ensuring high-quality,
needed equipment, personnel, training, that having some sort of
match, not a burdensome one that prohibits the application from
going forward, not one that is so burdened with paperwork that
it becomes impossible, as you have suggested, but rather a
match that shows that there is a serious commitment at the
State or local level to me is absolutely essential because
otherwise I think we are going to see low-priority projects
brought forward because if you are not paying anything and
there is no accountability at the State or local level for the
investment there, I believe you will see lower-quality
projects.
So your response concerns me. I do not doubt at all that
you are going to follow the law. That is not my issue. But I
think you need to think more about what the requirement for a
match brings to the integrity of the program.\1\
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
\1\ Letter from Ms. Harman submitted by Senator Collins appears in
the Appendix on page 112.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let me just very quickly ask you one final question, and I
will submit the rest for the record, if I may.
The Chairman and I did an extensive investigation into the
attacks on our country on September 11, 2001, in the wake of
the report by the 9/11 Commission. And what that report
demonstrated is that terrorists do not always operate solely in
the areas that they intend ultimately to strike. They plan,
they recruit, they train, and they live in places like Norman,
Oklahoma; Portland, Maine; Decatur, Georgia; Verona Beach,
Florida. That is where the September 11, 2001, hijackers
trained or lived or passed through.
Therefore, I believe it is imperative that we build a
baseline of capabilities all across this country. I will never
forget that on that day, two of the hijackers started their
path to death and destruction from Portland, Maine, even though
their targets were elsewhere. And Secretary Napolitano has said
before us that every area of America faces some level of risk.
Are you committed to ensuring that smaller States, that
every State has the resources and receives adequate Federal
equipment and assistance to meet baseline capabilities, not
only when it comes to terrorist attacks, but also natural
catastrophes which affect every State?
Ms. Harman. Absolutely. Clearly, the legislation that sets
forth in the 9/11 Act prioritizes the grants on risk and
vulnerability, and we do have small town rural America that we
also have to be concerned about, and some of those individuals
and organizations may not necessarily have the high risk that
would allow them to receive direct funding. In those instances,
it is very important for them--and, if confirmed, I mentioned
earlier one of my priorities is outreach. Those locals need to
coordinate closely with their State administrative agencies,
and we need to ensure at FEMA that those States have
comprehensive plans to build capabilities, not just in the
high-risk places, but to understand that those individuals who
may have to evacuate the high-risk areas should something
happen and are moving out into the more rural areas, they need
to be prepared out there as well.
So outreach is key to me. Coordination of existing grant
programs to maximize their effectiveness, I think, needs to
occur in every single State, and they need to focus on their
individual threats and the potential threats that they could
have.
Senator Collins. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Chairman Lieberman. Thanks, Senator Collins.
Ms. Harman, thank you. I think you have been very
impressive. We have asked you some tough questions. You have a
lot of experience. You have thought about the answers, and I am
sure at Senator Collins' invitation you will think twice about
some of the answers.
Ms. Harman. I will, sir. Thank you.
Chairman Lieberman. But I have been impressed. I must say I
am also impressed by your family. It is quite remarkable that
you are from a family that has been so involved in public
service, now in the second generation. That says a lot about
the stock from which you have emerged.
Without objection, the record of the hearing will be kept
open until 12 noon tomorrow for the submission of any written
questions or statements for the record.
Again, I hope that the Committee can approve your
nomination rapidly and see if we can get you confirmed by the
Senate before Christmas. But for now, I thank you for a long
career of public service and for your willingness to, if
confirmed, take on this responsibility.
Ms. Harman. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Senator Collins.
Thank you very much.
Chairman Lieberman. The hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:20 a.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
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