SHOW: THE BIG STORY WITH JOHN GIBSON (17:29) June 17, 2004
Interview With Henry Sokolski; Interview With Michelle Malkin
GUESTS: Henry Sokolski, Michelle Malkin
BYLINE: Andrew Napolitano, Bret Baier
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... confirm that we still have an important central question, and that is has Iran declared fully to us its enrichment program?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NAPOLITANO: The head of the United Nations' nuclear watchdog putting a spotlight on Iran's nuclear program and Fox News has obtained satellite photos showing recent activity at some of Iran's nuclear sites. National security correspondent Bret Baier is live with this story at the Pentagon. Hi, Bret.
BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Judge. Today the International Atomic Energy Agency's board of governors unanimously adopted a resolution rebuking Iran for not fully cooperating with IAEA inspectors. Now Fox News contributors have been analyzing before and after satellite photographs of a couple of nuclear sites inside Iran showing various activity in recent weeks and months. John Pike is with GLOBALSECURITY.org.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN PIKE, GLOBALSECURITY.ORG: It's very clear that this very large facility has been completely buried under a thick layer of dirt, making it difficult to monitor by satellite, making it more difficult to attack. They have constructed a large number of positions around the perimeter of the facility. We're not exactly sure what they are, but they appear to be fighting positions that they could use to defend the facility against a commando raid that was trying to take it out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: Now, other analysts point out that the two sites in the photos here have been and are regularly inspected by the IAEA and that the organization has not yet found any smoking guns that Iran is building a nuclear weapon. Now, the IAEA says they're not concerned about Natanz or Arak, those are the two sites. But the IAEA chief Mohamed ElBaradei said today he is seeking more information from Iran about the raising of buildings at a site in Tehran, possibly hiding another atomic installation. Today, State Department officials praised the IAEA's efforts to crack down on Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADAM ERELI, SPOKESMAN, STATE DEPARTMETN: Two years ago the United States was saying Iran had a program, Iran was a danger, and everybody was saying, oh, come on, you guys -- you guys are crazy. You guys are just beating up on Iran because you've got it in for them. Well, two years later everybody is on board in the form of four resolutions that, hey, there is a program, there is a clandestine nuclear program.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BAIER: Iranian leaders today condemned the IAEA's resolution saying that Tehran would, quote, "no longer be under any moral obligation to maintain its suspension of uranium enrichment." -- Judge.
NAPOLITANO: Bret Baier, thank you very much.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH BRILL, U.S. AMBASSADOR, IAEA: I think it's very clear that the level of concern has risen as more and more countries have learned more and more about what is going on in Iran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NAPOLITANO: That is Kenneth Brill, U.S. ambassador to the IAEA. The U.N. is working to separate fact from fiction as Iran continues to hide the true nature of its nuclear program. Henry Sokolski is executive director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center. And that's today's big question, Mr. Sokolski. Why is Iran refusing to cooperate fully with the United Nations inspectors?
HENRY SOKOLSKI, NONPROLIFERATION POLICY EDUCATION CENTER: Well, they're testing to see how far they can go without being found clearly in violation. And I think they've played their hand pretty well. You can go quite far, I think, a screwdriver's turn away from an arsenal here in another 12 months is where they'll be. So they're playing a pretty solid game so far.
NAPOLITANO: Does Iran have a secret nuclear weapons program that we have just learned about, suspected for a while, but just learned about?
SOKOLSKI: I think it's worse than that. They may not, and what they have out in the open may be what they'll use to make bombs. I think the problem we have is we want to find something they're hiding, and what they may be doing is in plain sight. And that would be the crisis for the NPT, the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty. That you can get all that you need to get bombs short of actually violating anything and come right up to the edge.
NAPOLITANO: Should we be worried when we go to bed at night -- should the Israelis be worried? Can the Iranians deliver any nuclear weaponry via missiles at the present time?
SOKOLSKI: Well, of course, the diplomatic shadow that they can cast is equal to the range ark of the missiles, and, yes, they do have missiles. I think the bigger problem is this. As they get more confident, their aggressive behavior in helping out Hezbollah and other terrorist organizations will increase. And as we've seen, if there are unstable actions taken in Saudi Arabia, the price of oil goes up, Iran gets richer. We are going to see the neighborhood watch Iran become more nuclear-ready and try to emulate the example that Iran is setting. It's very important, therefore, that we not let them go ahead and get away with this without calling them in violation at some point, and it better come soon.
NAPOLITANO: What do we do about it? How do we stop them, and what do we do now?
SOKOLSKI: I think it's very important that we actually deliver on what the Europeans were trying to do with this resolution and failed to, and that is not just say you have to open up, but that you have to stop engaging in certain activities whether you claim they're peaceful or not. That includes the enrichment activities and the building of reactors.
NAPOLITANO: All right, but telling them to stop is not going to make them stop, and sanctions haven't worked. Is there any way we can ratchet this up so that the Israelis can sleep peacefully at night?
SOKOLSKI: I think we may be past that point. In fact, the one thing that will make Israelis and everyone else sleep very much less confidently is if Iran becomes the beginning of a domino effect throughout the world and everyone follows Iran's example. So, if we're lucky, we can keep Iran from actually deploying nuclear weapons, but as far as their being capable of making weapons, they already are.
NAPOLITANO: Henry Sokolski, executive director of the Nonproliferation Policy Education Center. Thank you very much.
SOKOLSKI: Thank you.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: It is alleged that Abdi along with admitted al Qaeda operative Faris and other co-conspirators initiated a plot to blow up a Columbus area shopping mall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NAPOLITANO: The Somali accused of planning to blow up a Ohio mall didn't sneak into this country. He didn't crawl under a fence or stow away on a ship. He just showed up and received refugee status. Heather Nauert has more on how some terrorists are welcomed here with open arms.
NAUERT: That's right, Judge. Well, Nuradin Abdi, of course, last week was indicted for allegedly plotting with al Qaeda to blow up that shopping mall in Ohio. Abdi came to the United States in 1999 claiming that he would be persecuted if he was forced to go home to Somalia, but later on after he was granted asylum in the United States, he admitted that his claims were false and that he, in fact, did not face persecution after all. Now, while most people who claim asylum claim it for legitimate reasons, there are certainly others, like him, willing to lie to take advantage of our willingness to open our doors to people and help them. Syndicated columnist Michelle Malkin is in Washington to talk with us about this. And that's a big question, Michelle, can terrorists get into the United States simply by seeking asylum?
MICHELLE MALKIN, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: They sure can, if they want to and they're intent to. Heather, today's events with regard to Paul Johnson underscore a point that has been long forgotten since September 11th by too many people, and that is there are many, many people around the world who are trying to get into this country to do us harm, to take what they did with Paul Johnson abroad and to bring it here. And I believe that our government has not gone far enough to make sure that the people who come here under the rubric of escaping persecution, be it religious, ethnic persecution, whatever, we haven't done enough to make sure that they are screened properly. And that if we have suspicions about their claims that we're able to boot them out and make sure that they never settle down here in the first place, like Nuradin Abdi did.
NAUERT: OK, Michelle, let's just back up for one quick second. A lot of folks might think of the 9/11 hijackers, and many of them had overstayed their visas here. Why would these guys, like Abdi, come here and seek refugee status or come here and apply for asylum instead of just overstaying a visa? Why is this the new hot thing?
MALKIN: Well, it's not the new hot thing. In fact, in the past there have been a number of al Qaeda operatives and other terrorists and militant Islammists who have used the asylum system to enter this country and to stay in this country. It's very easy to game the system. If you talk to any immigration expert, they will say there's an asylum racket. Take someone like Ramzi Youssef, for example, he came to this country with no documents, no visa.
NAUERT: Ramsey Youssef, let's remind folks, with the '93 World Trade Center bombing. Go ahead, Michelle,
MALKIN: Right. He was the mastermind of that. He came here with a fake Iraqi passport and no visa. And he simply invoked those magic words, political asylum, which everybody in the immigration community knows is like open sesame. What happened was he said he was being persecuted by Saddam Hussein and somebody met him at the airport of entry. He arrived here at JFK Airport, and we didn't have enough space to detain him. Even if somebody said I don't know about you, you've got these bogus-looking documents. I want to vet your claim. No, we didn't have enough detention space to -- detention bed space, and that is a problem even today. It's a backend problem.
NAUERT: Michelle, let me just stop you for a second. Let me play devil's advocate, because our government would certainly say we turn away far more people than we let in for political asylum and that we also now do background checks for them of these people. Isn't that simply enough?
MALKIN: No, it isn't enough, and I do have to give credit to John Ashcroft and the Justice Department. Not only are they tracking down people who were let in here improperly in the first place, but they have streamlined the asylum process. But still, even today there is a 300,000 case backlog of asylum applications pending. And that means there are 300,000 people whose backgrounds we really don't know that much about who were just -- who are just running around, who are just loose.
NAUERT: Michelle, real quick, does anyone keep an eye on these folks once they get into the country?
MALKIN: Well, refugees know -- there are a lot of humanitarian groups after the State Department, and U.N. and people abroad help refugees get their status and come over here. But no, there's nobody keeping an eye on them, and it's up to the Justice Department to try and track down these people one-by-one.
NAUERT: All right, Michelle Malkin. Thanks a lot -- Judge.
NAPOLITANO: You have to tighten those borders.
NAUERT: That's right, OK.
NAPOLITANO: Coming up on THE BIG STORY, the tragic and gruesome death of Paul Johnson. Is this the new tactic for terrorists, and what can we do to fight it? Stay with us.
© Copyright 2004, Fox News Network, Inc.
