CNBC News HARDBALL WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS
(8:00 PM ET) February 21, 2001, Wednesday
ROBERT HANSSEN, FBI COUNTERINTELLIGENCE SPECIALIST, CHARGED WITH SPYING FOR THE RUSSIANS
ANCHORS: CHRIS MATTHEWS
CHRIS MATTHEWS, host:
The worst spy case in FBI history broke Tuesday, and the alleged mastermind is R--Robert Philip Hanssen, a 25-year veteran of the FBI in counterintelligence--he's a specialist in that--who's been charged with spying for the Russians for much of the past 15 years. FBI Director Louie Freeh told reporters Tuesday that Hanssen sold US secrets for more than $ 1 million in cash and diamonds and explained how Hanssen kept his spying secret.
Mr. LOUIS FREEH (FBI Director): (From Tuesday) Hanssen, using his training and experience to protect himself from discovery by the FBI, never met face to face with his Russian handlers, never revealed to them his true identity or even where he worked. He constantly checked FBI records for signs that he and the drop sites he were using were being investigated. He refused any foreign travel to meet with the Russians and even to decline--declined to use any of their tradecraft. Hanssen never displayed outward signs that he was receiving large amounts of unexplained cash. He was, after all, a trained counterintelligence specialist.
MATTHEWS: Freeh also said that Hanssen used his training to give the Russians nuclear secrets, our surveillance techniques and operations and names of US intelligence agents, including two Russians who were executed back in Moscow. Hanssen could face the death penalty for treason if convicted, but the damage is already done, and we may never know how bad it really is.
Is the Hanssen case a remnant from the old world of Cold War espionage or something newer and more sinister? With us to discuss that, Senator Jon Kyl of Arizona and John Pike, who's director of the--GlobalSecurity.org.
Let's go to Senator Kyl right now. You know, Senator, I c--we've been victim now for months and months of stories about spying. There's the Loral case with Bernard Schwartz and that question about technology. There's the John Deutch matter with the wrong use of computer equipment; the seventh-floor invasion of the State Department. This stories keep--and the stuff in Los Alamos. Are we still in an espionage war with the Russians?
Senator JON KYL (Republican, Intelligence Committee): Well, yes, we are. As a matter of fact, the Russians have more spies against us now than they did during the Cold War. Most of those specific instances that you mentioned were unique. I mean, John Deutch using a computer for developing material that should never have gone on a computer tied to the Internet, for example, had nothing to do with spying. But this case, remember, has been going on since 1985, and it continued well after the Cold War was over. We've been supplying--according to the information in the complaint, Hanssen had been supplying the Soviets and then the Russians with very important information long after the Cold War was over.
MATTHEWS: How'd they break--how'd they penetrate the seventh floor of the State Department, the Russians? How'd they do that?
Sen. KYL: Well, I can't exactly say. As a matter of fact, there's been some very lax security at the State Department. You know of some of the things that occurred as a result. And there were efforts made to tighten security up at the State Department.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Sen. KYL: This particular individual, as a matter of fact, may have even been involved in some of that activity.
MATTHEWS: Well, thank--you know, when I was wri--writing as a speechwriter--I was writing speeches at the White House for Jimmy Carter, the man who spoke out today against Clinton. We were told that the--the--their spies could go up and down 17th Street, right next to the White House, and pick up what we were typing on our Selecteric IIs off of some kind of decoding equipment. So we were aware, not that we could do much about it. But it--it seems like the s--the Russians, they had that best--they had their embassy up on the c--up on the highest point, with the clearest line of sight in Washington for every federal agency. Why do we even give them that site, Senator?
Sen. KYL: Well, we--well, we shouldn't have. I don't know why we did. I wasn't there at the time, and we shouldn't have done it. Part of what people should realize here is that Hanssen was a counterintelligence officer. That's--that's the kind of people that try to help you prevent the other side from spying on you.
MATTHEWS: Right.
Sen. KYL: He knew how to do that; that's how he was able to protect what he was doing. But it's important that we be able to prevent the other side from spying against us, forget what we may be trying to do against them. And this is a case where we made it--where he made it very, very difficult for us to stop the Russians from gaining information about us.
MATTHEWS: Well, let's find out from our expert, Mr. Pike, about this whole guy--this is an incredible guy. He reminds me of a character out of an Alfred Hitchcock show. He's always liked. He cleverly doesn't spend too much money. He lives modestly. He never meets with his Russian control people; he always does his do--safe drops. This guy was a mastermind.
Mr. JOHN PIKE (GlobalSecurity.org): Well, this guy was, apparently, according to his own words, fulfilling a childhood ambition. He says that he read a biography of Kim Filby, another famous Soviet spy, when he was 14 years old, and this is basically what he wanted to grow up to be.
MATTHEWS: So he was a mole from the outset.
Mr. PIKE: It's not clear, but he--he says that he wanted to be a big-time, you know, hor--famous spy since he was a kid, and unlike many of the others...
MATTHEWS: It didn't come through in the interviews, apparently, when they hired him, the FBI.
Mr. PIKE: Well--well, that's why he's such a good spy. No, I mean, he was distr--demonstrating very good tradecraft and a lot of the things that other people have done wrong to get caught. He knew what not to do and what to do, and he was very successful.
MATTHEWS: This--the motive is interesting here. As I said, it's like an Alfred Hitchcock plot from the old '50s television show. Here's a guy who doesn't spend any more money than any of the other agents; nothing can be tracked through the IRS. He doesn't buy a be--bigger house or put a wing on the house.
Mr. PIKE: Doesn't have lifestyle problems, doesn't do any of the things...
MATTHEWS: Goes nowhere. He's not a druggy, he's not an alcoholic.
Mr. PIKE: Right, right, right.
MATTHEWS: He has none of the usual problems. He doesn't have sexual secrets.
Mr. PIKE: Right.
MATTHEWS: He never goes overseas, he never meets a Soviet, a Russian agent.
Mr. PIKE: Right.
MATTHEWS: How does he do that kind of work? How do you avoid ever meeting the other guy?
Mr. PIKE: Well, through the trade craft that they were using, he contacted them anonymously; didn't tell them who--didn't tell them who he was. They had cutouts, basically. They would take out advertisements in the newspaper, tell him where to call, where to drop. It's sort of standard spy tradecraft, but he was very meticulous about it, very careful about it and I think probably could have continued for quite some time, had it not been for a successful American counterintelligence operation against the Russians.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Mr. PIKE: And if we had not had someone turn him in, he'd probably still be operating.
MATTHEWS: What makes Aldrich Ames so loathsome, especially when he comes on TV with those self-serving interviews, is--I guess he expects to get out someday in the 21st century.
Mr. PIKE: Probably not, though.
MATTHEWS: But he hopes--I don't know why he's doing all these interviews. I guess it gives him his jollies. But here's a guy who--who, basically, ratted on American agents overseas who were executed. Now apparently this fellow, Hanssen, collaborated in that...
Mr. PIKE: Did the same. Did the same.
MATTHEWS: ...and these people are dead today because of his ratting, basically, his spying.
Mr. PIKE: Basically, the people that...
MATTHEWS: His tra--his treason.
Mr. PIKE: Ba--basically, the Russians, who were working for American intelligence that Rick Ames and Hanssen told the Russians about, told them about it about the same time. With their collective indictment of them, they were arrested, tried and executed.
MATTHEWS: Senator Kyl, it seems to me that men and women who enter the foreign--the--the intelligence service are the gutsiest people in the country, especially the ones who go undercover overseas, the ones who work undercover here, because you can get killed in this business. They would seem to me the most patriotic of Americans. How'd this guy get in the litter?
Sen. KYL: Well, you don't know. And--and it's--it's ironic that this person was so talented and so qualified. Remember, we--we teach people to be this good. We thought he was this good for us.
MATTHEWS: Yeah.
Sen. KYL: But--but for reasons that John noted, he--he turned around and went the other way. It's very, very difficult under those circumstances to find out that somebody is, in fact, turning against you, but there's an interesting element to this. After the Ames case, remember, we did the damage assessment, and there were still some things that we could not explain based upon Ames. We felt that there was still something wrong, perhaps somebody in our system that was still cooperating with the Russians. It may be that Hanssen is the one. Now we'll have to verify that.
MATTHEWS: Well, it'd be nice if he was, but what if he isn't, Jim? Do you think he might be, Mr. Pike?
Mr. PIKE: Well, looking--looking at all the information he was giving, looking at the information that he was in a position to give, it--and looking at the amount of money the Russians paid, I think that there's a strong probability that--that he is. I would also say that whoever else may have been working for Russian intelligence in the way that Hanssen was, they should be thinking very seriously about making their escape now because I assume that the person who gave up Hanssen to American intelligence has probably compromised most other Russian intelligence operations around the world.
MATTHEWS: Does this--can this guy save his life by ratting on some other spies? Is that the deal he's got now before him?
Mr. PIKE: I--I assume that, at this point, American counterintelligence already knows who those other spies are.
MATTHEWS: No deal then. What are--what are the--what are the prize jewels now of intelligence? What do we most want from the Russians, and what do they most want from us in terms of stuff?
Mr. PIKE: Well...
MATTHEWS: What are we trying to get, and what are they trying to get?
Mr. PIKE: ...what we're trying to get is the--precisely the sort of counterintelligence information here to find their spies. What they're trying to get is American technology to help their economy.
MATTHEWS: So we're playing defense?
Mr. PIKE: Right.
MATTHEWS: Entirely. We're not trying to learn anything from the Russians?
Mr. PIKE: Obviously, we're interested in political developments. Obviously, we're interested in their military plans. But I'd say, at this point, a lot of the emphasis is simply on dealing with their intelligence operations here in the US, and this is a ma...
MATTHEWS: So it's--it's industrial espionage.
Mr. PIKE: It's industrial espionage. And I would say that even though that this is a very damaging case, it's also a real triumph for the FBI that they were able to break this.
MATTHEWS: Do we have a good network in Russia right now, Senator, that matches the one they've got here?
Sen. KYL: Let me just say that Russia is a very opaque country, it's a very difficult country for us to penetrate.
Mr. PIKE: But we obviously had a major penetration a couple of months ago, which is how we broke this case.
MATTHEWS: Are we winning or losing the spy war, Senator?
Sen. KYL: We're playing defense, as--as John Pike said, and it's--it's--you can't score very many points playing defense. We hold our own. And in some cases, particularly with respect to terrorism, Chris, we've been very, very successful. And I guess the key thing I'd like to say here is this case proves once again that you can't relax. We've got to spend what's necessary on our intelligence operations because the best defense against terrorism...
MATTHEWS: Right.
Sen. KYL: ...is the offense to be able to penetrate them, and we've been pretty successful at that.
MATTHEWS: I like the moxie of that sheriff out the mid--in the Midwest who caught those two kids the other day. We need that in our s--intelligence services and especially counterintelligence. Anyway, thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, John Pike.
Sen. KYL: You bet.
MATTHEWS: Thank you very much, Senator Kyl.
Up next, the political buzz on Jimmy Carter and The Beatles. You're watching HARDBALL.
(Announcements)
Copyright 2001 CNBC, Inc.
